Dinosaurs and the Discovery Center with Dr. Brian Thomas

[00:00:00] thanks a lot for being here my name is Kevin Conover and we’re broadcasting down in Southern California uh locally

[00:00:05] we’re on kprz uh 12 10 a.m that’s uh down here in Southern California in San Diego uh with Salem and we’re also on FM

[00:00:13] 106.1 in North County and then of course we’re all over social media all over the different platforms we’re on uh iTunes

[00:00:21] and the podcasts and everything else and uh we’ve had some fantastic shows recently my name is Kevin Conover

[00:00:26] educateforlife.org is my website and uh it’s got all kinds of apologetics uh

[00:00:32] topics that you can look at and that you can use for homeschooling or for Bible study for small groups whatever you need

[00:00:39] all there and one of the topics I cover which I love covering is of course dinosaurs people always ask how do

[00:00:45] dinosaurs fit into the equation um you know I’m an apologetics teacher and I start off year with my kids

[00:00:51] teaching them we you know we’re covering uh we just finished Buddhism we’re hopping into Islam now and I have kids

[00:00:57] always saying when are we going to cover dinosaurs I want to know about dining dinosaurs so it’s fantastic my guest today is Brian Thomas he received a

[00:01:04] master’s in biotechnology in 1999 and he also has a PHD in paleo biochemistry

[00:01:11] that’s that’s serious right there that’s that’s like three different disciplines all all wrapped into one from the

[00:01:17] University of Liverpool um he joined the institute for creation research icr as a science writer and

[00:01:23] editor all the way back in 2008 I’ve read tons of his articles and used tons of his articles to share with other

[00:01:29] people and he was appointed as a research associate in 2019 a research scientist in 2021 and he’s the author of

[00:01:37] dinosaurs and the Bible among many other uh books that he’s co-authored and his

[00:01:42] dissertation ancient and fossil bone collagen remnants you can also get that in book form icr.org is the website if

[00:01:49] you want to check that out but uh it’s all kinds of resources um Brian thank you so much for being on

[00:01:55] the program this evening my pleasure Kevin thanks for having me yeah absolutely you know

[00:02:00] um it’s really interesting I was looking at all your stuff and you’ve written so many different articles and um but obvi it’s very clear that there’s a very

[00:02:07] heavy emphasis on dinosaurs and I’ve got a whole lot of questions uh to ask for you and a lot of people are very curious

[00:02:12] about these subjects it’s always nice when you have somebody who really knows this information but a lot of people don’t know that you actually used to be

[00:02:18] an evolutionist um yeah that’s right I went from Evolution To Creation uh because a friend

[00:02:25] challenged me and basically he kept he kept poking me he’s like show me the proof of evolution and I I was like the

[00:02:32] proof is that everyone believes it he goes That’s not scientific you know yeah I want the experiments you know or

[00:02:37] whatever and so I I just he kept asking me like he got annoying with it and uh

[00:02:43] and so yeah so so he he said I’ll stop bothering you about this if you’ll read a creation book

[00:02:48] so uh so he made a deal with me and so guess what you got you got sucked in

[00:02:53] there yeah the book was called scientific creationism you know and it was uh by

[00:03:01] the founder of the institute for creation research Dr Henry Morris and I read that book you know with a pen and

[00:03:09] Pad in hand to refute it because I knew I just knew it was a quack science book

[00:03:14] uh and it turns out it was it made more sense the creation perspective you know

[00:03:20] made more sense of the real world and the things the features I see in the world from the cosmos to the fossils to

[00:03:27] the biology um and so anyway that totally transformed me and I went from Evolution

[00:03:33] To Creation because a friend dared me and challenged me to read that book and the whole time I’m reading it I I now

[00:03:40] work for the institution for The Institute that produced that book you know and I I I can I can’t help but

[00:03:47] think that God was like up there in heaven watching me read going I’ve got some ideas about what’s going to happen

[00:03:53] that’s so cool yeah and tell us about that because I mean your the background there is phenomenal what is that a

[00:03:58] stegosaurus there in the background uh yes it’s a model it’s a certified replica uh we have we have stag here and

[00:04:05] anyway we’re at the um in the lobby um of the Discovery Center

[00:04:10] here at the institute for creation research in Dallas where people come every day hundreds of people hopefully

[00:04:16] soon to be thousands uh we’re kind of young and just getting booted up here um uh but yeah so we have we have

[00:04:24] exhibits on display and this is just a Lobby we have a planetarium I’m staring at here um with with unique planetarium shows

[00:04:32] um see nowhere else and uh so yeah we have an array of dinosaurs some are real

[00:04:37] some are um some are replicas behind me and so we uh yeah we could talk about what’s

[00:04:42] behind me it I may be turning my head a lot if we do so we have to stick with your questions oh that’s okay

[00:04:48] so I just wanted to make sure that our listeners get a chance to to um you know know where they can actually go and see

[00:04:54] all this cool stuff that you guys have put together icr has grown incredibly

[00:05:00] um I know it’s it’s funny because I actually teach at the school where icr was developed out of down here in

[00:05:05] Southern California and uh in Santee California with the the Creation Museum and then you guys ended up in Texas and

[00:05:11] that’s really cool um just to see how God has moved and grown the ministry but I I really want

[00:05:17] to get into dinosaurs because um I want to make sure I capitalize on this opportunity to chat with you you

[00:05:23] know you did your dissertation on Ancient and fossil bone collagen remnants

[00:05:29] um why did you choose specifically that um emphasis you know for your

[00:05:35] dissertation uh what made you decide you know what of all the different things that I can study in regards to this this

[00:05:41] is what I’m going to focus on sure uh well it started with

[00:05:47] um a sign excuse me a science paper I read in um um well it came out in 2005 I probably

[00:05:54] got around to reading it in 2007 and um so I was kind of curious about it and

[00:05:59] the more I wrote articles for The Institute the more similar papers came out to that original well to the first

[00:06:07] one I saw which described blood vessels that were liberated from inside

[00:06:12] Tyrannosaurus Rex femur leg bone that’s Mary Schweitzer in 2005. that’s right

[00:06:18] that’s uh that’s the lead author and so and so then so then I was sort of

[00:06:24] tracking the um the controversy that that started and so

[00:06:29] on the one hand you’ve got you’ve got scientists who understand that tissue doesn’t last long and they study protein

[00:06:35] Decay rates they’re basically biochemists by background and they’re scoffing at those at those

[00:06:42] results and they’re saying that can’t possibly be from T-rex or any other dinosaur because proteins don’t last a

[00:06:49] million years let alone 70 million and then on the other hand you’ve got paleontologists who may not have a

[00:06:55] biochemistry background but as much but they um but they’re just digging around looking at fossils and they keep

[00:07:02] liberating blood vessels and so blood vessels are like

[00:07:07] they’re made of the same basic material that skin is made of which is mostly collagen protein and it’s a it’s a it’s

[00:07:14] insoluble so it’s one of the longest lasting proteins like after an animal dies the collagen lasts

[00:07:20] longer than most of the other proteins and how long would that be I mean it depends on temperature

[00:07:28] so if if you um in humidity probably plays a bit of a

[00:07:35] role too yeah so but the temperature is the biggest factor I mean assuming bacteria don’t get to it because if

[00:07:41] bacteria acts as a a um a carcass then they’ll they’ll Devour

[00:07:47] the collagen and it’ll be all gone too and and other Critters so that’s what happens in today’s world when an animal

[00:07:53] dies in the water at Sea lakes or on land it gets

[00:07:59] scavenged and and then it rots yeah um and that and rotting you can you

[00:08:05] can think of rotting in terms of biodegradation which is microbes eating

[00:08:10] it um eating the nutrients and recycling those nutrients which praise the Lord he made those to do that so that we don’t

[00:08:17] have to walk through yeah file to 10 feet high everywhere we go

[00:08:22] you know yeah so you know that a question popped into my mind just now you know

[00:08:27] um one of the things that is uh absolutely amazing is um the mammoth you know I believe they

[00:08:33] found fool mammoths uh you know skin everything all on it

[00:08:38] um and and I’m assuming of course that’s because of the cold weather the the they’re frozen so what is the maximum

[00:08:45] um you know time frame that you would expect collagen to last uh under ideal

[00:08:50] circumstances um how long would that last scientifically right yeah so and so that’s with

[00:08:59] um we’re we’re not Scavenging the the mammoths wolves do by the way they’re still

[00:09:06] eating them when they get desperate um and when they when they permafrost melts back enough

[00:09:13] to where an animal could scavenge get to it anyway assuming it’s not going to get scavenged and assuming that it’s too

[00:09:18] cold for bacteria too too dry for bacteria to to do their thing then chemistry is

[00:09:24] still there chemistry is Relentless and unless you have it’s I mean so the

[00:09:30] chemistry of this goes in One Direction after you die and that’s the direction from

[00:09:36] complicated to simple so you have a very highly organized

[00:09:41] molecule biomolecule it’s a protein in the form

[00:09:46] of collagen it’s three strands and each of the three strands winds around the other so it’s tough and ropey at the

[00:09:54] molecular level but chemistry still happens to it and it happens relentlessly and there’s no there’s no

[00:10:00] geologic stratum that doesn’t um you know that keeps out oxygen oxygen

[00:10:06] gets everywhere water gets everywhere and so there’s no

[00:10:11] uh so so best case scenario um is it would be frozen yeah like you said

[00:10:18] permafrost and um uh so so the maximum shelf life would be you could probably

[00:10:25] extend it from um to uh let’s say let’s say close to to a

[00:10:32] million years I’d have to do the the math on that but so so in theory based on today’s Decay

[00:10:39] rates that we measure in the lab you can get you can get these um uh you can get protein this protein

[00:10:46] collagen it’s you know it’s in our bones it’s in our cartilage it’s in skin you can get it to last hundreds of thousands

[00:10:52] of years in theory and that’s if radiation doesn’t get to it that’s if bacteria doesn’t get to it really if

[00:10:59] anything gets to it it’s gonna you know that’s under ideal conditions and that’s in the literature that’s in the secular mainstream uh you know research-based

[00:11:06] lab bench repeatable experiment based science so so then the question is is

[00:11:11] you know if they’re finding a T-Rex that’s supposedly 65 million years old

[00:11:17] um and it still has red blood cells and it literally blood vessels uh how does

[00:11:22] any scientist justify this I saw you know the argument that oh if there’s a certain amount of iron uh the iron

[00:11:28] somehow can preserve it and extend the lifespan of these these soft tissues into the you know 65 million years or

[00:11:35] there was a hadris or I I believe that was like supposedly 80 80 million years

[00:11:40] old is that legitimate Is that real science

[00:11:46] well I would it’s um it’s it’s complicated and so I

[00:11:53] had to study that to answer that very question so let me tease it apart real really quick for you

[00:11:59] um the iron preservation hypothesis has an experiment that that supports it

[00:12:07] okay but here’s what they did for the experiment they uh they took uh iron and

[00:12:13] used lab equipment to concentrate that iron and then they bathed blood vessels

[00:12:18] in Iron concentrate like iron iron soup

[00:12:25] um and then they observed it first for several years at room temperature and um and the control was blood vessels

[00:12:32] liberated from ostrich bone that were not treated with the iron soup and those

[00:12:38] rotted within a few weeks so what’s the difference

[00:12:43] I think the difference is what we already knew about iron and that it’s

[00:12:48] a bacteriostatin so bacteria don’t grow when there’s too much iron

[00:12:54] but unless we have a Jurassic blender or a Jurassic scientist who could make iron

[00:12:59] soup that we’re we’re presenting a um so so it over the conclusion from

[00:13:06] those data overreach the data because our conclusion was because iron keeps

[00:13:12] bacteria from eating this in a couple years in a lab bench therefore proteins can last for millions

[00:13:17] of years well hey how do you get the iron to lay down on top of a protein that’s

[00:13:24] buried inside of a bone in high concentration of iron and B we’re not talking about bacteria anyways we’re

[00:13:29] talking about chemistry yeah and but the bottom line is to justify that

[00:13:34] um conclusion you’d have to do a longevity Decay rate study

[00:13:40] nobody has done that we’re starting to do it we have the we have the lab we just need the Personnel

[00:13:46] uh to to do that well that’s really cool we want to test that very hypothesis in our lab here

[00:13:54] that’s that’s fantastic I love it so um you know your degree your PhD is in

[00:14:00] paleo biochemistry um why the why the mixture of all these

[00:14:06] different you know uh why did you decide okay this is going to be my focus it

[00:14:11] that sounds very um I mean you’re pulling from it looks like three different disciplines

[00:14:16] right yeah that’s well said and I think that’s why I picked the word I was able to choose it in your PhD program

[00:14:22] sometimes you can choose especially in in the UK which is where I got mine you can name it what you think it should

[00:14:28] be called and then as long as your Review Committee approves of it then you’re good to go but now I regret calling it The Paleo

[00:14:36] biochemistry because everywhere I go people now introduce me as paleo biochemists and no one knows what it

[00:14:41] means that’s funny man I should have just called myself fossil you know yeah

[00:14:47] I’m a fossil list you know so there you go you know that’s funny but basically I

[00:14:53] wanted a word that described what I did and um you know what I what I had studied and so at the end of my program

[00:14:59] I picked that word because I did basically it’s dinosaur proteins so that’s what I I’m up dinosaur

[00:15:05] proteins guy but I haven’t done this protein sequencing and so I had to come up with a word that

[00:15:11] doesn’t mean protein sequencing um so yeah so paleo means ancient which

[00:15:18] refers to fossils bio means life chemistry means the chemicals of life so I’m looking at the ancient chemicals of

[00:15:24] life and my thesis covers not just um Mesozoic or dinosaur material but

[00:15:30] also material from Ice Age Roman occupation of Britain

[00:15:37] middle medieval you know and so I have different bones of different ages and we’ve done this

[00:15:44] similar uh techniques on all these different bones to see in different settings you know to kind of explore how

[00:15:51] much collagen is in them where do you find bones with collagen where do you find bones without so much collagen and so we’ve come up with a lot of answers

[00:15:57] wow that’s so interesting there’s still so many questions you know you could get an infinite number of phds in this one

[00:16:03] little discipline and you just keep going yeah wow well um you know succinctly uh for those of you listening

[00:16:10] just tuning in my guest today is Brian Thomas with icr Dr Brian Thomas and um you know he’s written over probably well

[00:16:17] over a thousand articles for icr specifically on creation science specifically so how do we how do we look

[00:16:23] at the Bible in a Biblical worldview that also you know the god of the Bible is the god of science the god of

[00:16:29] creation is the god of science so um so you know for our our listeners I

[00:16:35] mean that’s the succinct um description of how dinosaurs fit in the Bible is that uh if we take the

[00:16:41] Bible at its word the dinosaurs were created uh during the six days of creation just like everything else was

[00:16:47] created it was all created all at the same time um and then the dinosaurs actually Noah

[00:16:53] did take them on the ark the flood really did happen there was a worldwide flood it explains the geology all throughout

[00:16:59] um the world and then ultimately these dinosaurs went extinct and

[00:17:05] and um you know a lot of people the the question is um you know what evidence do

[00:17:10] we have that dinosaurs didn’t go extinct millions of years ago but went extinct recently how do we know that that’s

[00:17:16] really the case and you know there are there are as you know there are so many different angles to come at that from

[00:17:22] and one of the ones I’m very interested in my my wife was um during it’s very interesting during

[00:17:29] um she was working towards her degree in interior design and she had to take a

[00:17:35] class on the history of Art and she brought this book home and goes Kevin

[00:17:42] you will not believe the amount of artwork that has depictions of dinosaurs

[00:17:47] and dragons in it it’s unreal and I looked through it and I’ve you know I’ve seen a few of them but I I could not

[00:17:53] believe the amount of um of artwork that depicts you know dragons or Dragon like

[00:17:58] creatures and I wanted to talk to you about that um because I know you have several books

[00:18:03] on this um they’re at icr that deal directly with depictions of dragons what

[00:18:09] is some of the most um significant and uh maybe compelling

[00:18:14] uh artwork that you’ve seen that actually says hey you know what these people didn’t just make this up they

[00:18:20] actually saw it and they put it in their artwork well I wish I could just pick up this camera and carry you with me to the to

[00:18:28] the dragon wall that we have on display here at the icr Discovery Center and for

[00:18:33] some people it’s their favorite um exhibit in the whole place uh because

[00:18:38] it’s it’s so real um and like you said your your wife is looking at the the you know the artwork

[00:18:44] that our ancestors really left behind in this real world and so and it’s a great

[00:18:50] question that you ask what’s the most compelling because what what there’s a trap that we can

[00:18:58] fall into and we have to warn warn ourselves to not fall into this trap and it is to to see dinosaurs or whatever we

[00:19:06] want to see where they’re really not actually there so there’s a there’s a rigorous

[00:19:11] um eight-step uh verification process that a friend of mine uh Vance Nelson

[00:19:17] has used to uh to pull together the very best examples from around the world of

[00:19:23] not just dinosaurs but um all kinds of extinct creatures and so one of the one of the

[00:19:29] tests for verification is um you know to to have a a tight match between the

[00:19:35] anatomy described in the artwork with the anatomy known from the fossils

[00:19:41] another test that he uses and I really appreciate him for doing this is um

[00:19:47] to hire a an evolutionary paleo artist are you with me yeah interesting a Paleo

[00:19:56] artist draws what he or she thinks an extinct animal looked like based on

[00:20:01] their knowledge of anatomy and based on the um the fossil the bones arranged in

[00:20:07] the fossil and so um yeah and he’s hiring an evolutionist specifically

[00:20:12] because he doesn’t have a bias towards creation exactly and so what he wants is to have that um

[00:20:19] um that that testimony you know from the other side yeah in a way so so then in

[00:20:26] his book every single you know artifact that he chooses he he personally hired you know an artist paid thousands of

[00:20:32] dollars to get this done wow and so you you could see the Paleo artist’s version or rendering right next to the ancient

[00:20:40] artwork and it’s a it’s really stunning because in in so many cases it’s exactly the

[00:20:47] same you know the same Anatomy same what book is that do you have the name

[00:20:52] of that book Handy by any chance uh it’s called dire Dragons It’s the best book on the subject we sell it right here at

[00:20:59] the bookstores right behind me uh but okay is that on the website too icr.org

[00:21:04] oh sure so yeah uh store.icr.org and then look up dire

[00:21:10] dragons but that’s the thing we have to be careful because 95 of the dragon art

[00:21:16] that’s out there does not match uh uh doesn’t match the anatomy known

[00:21:22] from any particular fossil it may have a general dinosaurian or reptilian aspect

[00:21:28] to it but we can’t really make very many firm conclusions based on those they’re

[00:21:34] enough to Intrigue us but they’re not enough for us to be persuaded of one worldview over against the other so but

[00:21:41] it’s when you get to these uh very rare ones that exactly match the anatomy one

[00:21:48] that we have on display here is a it’s an Altarpiece so it’s a it’s artwork

[00:21:54] done in the in them in medieval times I think it’s 1500

[00:21:59] something like that it’s on display it’s in it’s well not it’s in a private building but it’s in

[00:22:05] Barcelona and uh it’s it’s a it’s yet another depiction of Saint George and

[00:22:10] the Dragon and they’re and the dragon seems to be a different dragon all around Europe uh and so that’s an

[00:22:17] intriguing question as to why it says Vance has a good answer for that too

[00:22:22] um I mean it is a spitting image so to speak of a creature called nothosaurus

[00:22:30] they’re on display in Barcelona or on display to the people who can get in the building yeah uh it’s been and you know

[00:22:38] you can and you can get images of the of this um just look it up you know uh

[00:22:43] palette General anyway so it’s it’s the it’s got the teeth that go outside the mouth

[00:22:48] that’s very characteristic of no thesaurus it was not a dinosaur it’s an extinct semi-aquatic reptile

[00:22:57] um and it’s the body’s size is proportional to a horse on the image and

[00:23:03] it’s exactly the same proportion that we know from the fossils of this thing and

[00:23:09] um the we find those fossils in Triassic rocks which are below the rocks that

[00:23:14] have most of the dinosaurs in them so we would interpret that as Midway through

[00:23:19] the flood so because we think of the the the stack of rocks around the globe

[00:23:25] at all the whole the whole Rock stack as being having been deposited in just the one year of Noah’s flood so that the

[00:23:32] that the fossils in the bottom are different than the fossils on top not because they uh were yet to evolve

[00:23:39] through some sort of uh Progressive progression over millions of years but instead uh because these were the

[00:23:46] creatures to be inundated first during the year because they were already the lowest and then they were in the ocean

[00:23:53] in the ocean and as the waters went higher and higher they buried um

[00:23:58] um more and more with the argument with the would the argument be that the animals in the

[00:24:05] ocean could not escape the flood waters quick enough right where’s the animals on land are running up getting trying to

[00:24:12] get to Higher Ground And so you’re going to have that process of burying the

[00:24:18] animals like you said and so whereas an evolutionist says oh yeah yeah these creatures on the bottom of the ocean

[00:24:23] they evolve first and then it got progressed until we get to humans at the top but we’re saying no no they got

[00:24:29] buried first and then the humans essentially got buried last is that what we’re arguing yeah very last because uh

[00:24:37] yeah because they were in the highest elevations of the pre-flood world roughly speaking so yeah where did we

[00:24:43] look for for human fossils well they’d be they’d be alongside creatures that live on dry land today like camels and

[00:24:51] horses and you know cats and things like that so so we do have fossils of camels and horses and cats and none of those

[00:24:58] are with Dinosaurs none of those are down below the dinosaurs with no thesaurus and the Triassic layers none

[00:25:04] of those are in the Cambrian which is just the bottom of the sea creatures some of it’s shallow Marine a lot of us

[00:25:10] shallow Marine you know so this brings up another subject which is if it’s true

[00:25:16] that the humans and some of the land dinosaurs are both you know there is

[00:25:22] there mixing of the fossils between animals because you know in the books if you look in the books you look at the

[00:25:27] geology right um they’ve got this clear lineup of you know all the different time frames and

[00:25:34] all the way things evolved um is that accurate you know when you see a high school textbook uh discussing

[00:25:40] you know evolutionary history um or do we have evidence that people

[00:25:46] and dinosaurs were buried together do we have human fossils with uh some dinosaur

[00:25:52] fossils or human Footprints with some dinosaur footprints is there evidence of

[00:25:57] uh that they did live alongside each other in that regard well again I don’t think

[00:26:03] I don’t think there’s any defensible evidence out there of human remains that

[00:26:09] are you know that are in those layers um and I know that the Biloxi River here in

[00:26:15] North Texas is famous for uh back in the 70s and 80s for having um and even the

[00:26:21] 90s we’re having human-like Footprints in them and those are definitely dinosaur bear you know bearing

[00:26:28] uh layers but uh it turns out that those prints um they turned into dinosaur prints in

[00:26:34] about 1983-84. so ever since then uh the main researcher on those which was our former

[00:26:41] president Dr John Morris um he uh he wrote a book suggesting that

[00:26:47] these could be human remains but then he had to take them all off the shelves as soon as um uh erosion revealed features

[00:26:55] of those what we thought were human prints that erosion turned them into what they

[00:27:01] really were which is which is dinosaur prints so that’s a that’s been a uh that’s a been like an evidence for

[00:27:06] creation that we don’t Advocate and I wouldn’t use anymore don’t need to though because we have blood vessels

[00:27:12] inside dinosaur bones yeah how do you get those you know those really fit really well with the the flood model

[00:27:19] because if if these layers and the dinosaurs and other animals that they contain were all deposited the whole

[00:27:27] stack just thousands of years ago then you’ve got a shot you’ve got a chance at finding maybe some proteins not and we

[00:27:34] do not only proteins but the proteins in some cases are still intact in the form of degraded tissues you know yeah

[00:27:43] I just was reading an article which kind of blew me away it said that a hobbyist recently uh found a dinosaur with all

[00:27:51] the skin on the dinosaur uh and this was just I think only a few weeks ago

[00:27:57] um I feel like it was in Canada um and there was literally it was almost

[00:28:03] like finding a dead dinosaur with all the skin on it and I I I’m just thinking

[00:28:09] to myself whoa this is crazy and I was reading another article they said that a lot of people are actually going now a lot of I don’t know if it’s

[00:28:14] paleontologists or other scientists are going back to museums and cutting open the bones that are in

[00:28:21] the museums and actually finding soft tissue in them because this is happening so frequently now they’re actually

[00:28:27] finding soft tissue in museum dinosaur bones have you heard about this

[00:28:33] yes it’s my field so I yeah I know that’s what I stay on top of it yeah yeah so

[00:28:39] the one you’re talking about from a couple weeks ago um you’re right it was in Canada and it was

[00:28:46] Hadrosaurus skin but but it was skin Impressions or it might have been like mineralized

[00:28:52] skin not necessarily the original skin material on that one all right yeah so you got to

[00:28:59] be careful because it’s easy to and they don’t they don’t tell you up front even in the technical literature scientists

[00:29:04] talking to other scientists they’ll say preserved blood vessel or preserved

[00:29:09] retina or this that and the other and it’s like well in what way is it preserved and sometimes they don’t even tell you uh yeah but other times they’ll

[00:29:16] tell you preserved in the form of mineral you know minerals that have taken the place of the shape uh but that’s and

[00:29:24] that’s cool but that’s not what I’m most interested in which is

[00:29:29] preserved like you said in the form of just a natural mummy it’s the original skin so there’s a

[00:29:36] cyticosaurus from China um that that was published about a decade ago now and yeah they used a

[00:29:43] special microscope technique to image the skin and and it revealed collagen protein

[00:29:50] fibers in the skin wow um so of that dinosaur so it’s it’s in

[00:29:56] there and was that was that in a frozen environment is that why it was preserved no it wasn’t even it wasn’t even in a

[00:30:02] frozen environment so even even not under ideal conditions we’re seeing this because you said you know you said um

[00:30:08] when we were referencing the artwork about um St George slaying the dragon uh you

[00:30:14] said somewhere around the 1500s is is this is the conclusion that you’re inferring here that dinosaurs went extinct as

[00:30:21] recently as you know 500 years ago is that is that what we’re thinking

[00:30:27] um I think I think the uh I think dinosaurs it looks because of the artwork that we

[00:30:34] see um for example um there’s a there’s a little uh two

[00:30:39] sauropods Tangled Up um and it’s a it’s a carving from 1406 it’s

[00:30:45] on it’s on display um well it’s under it’s under a rug but it’s it’s there in the north of England

[00:30:52] and um one of the two sauropod look-alikes I

[00:30:57] mean they are exactly sauropod shape one of the two has uh four little tail spikes on the end of its tail so we

[00:31:04] looked in the literature um just to look at the fossils and you know asked ourselves the question is

[00:31:09] there a sauropod that has any tail spikes at all and if so how many and the answer is yeah shunosaurus was

[00:31:16] discovered in like the early 1990s um and it had four tail spikes so so the

[00:31:22] Anatomy on that matches what we see in the fossils so that tells me that it’s

[00:31:28] possible that the artist back in 1406 who carved this in brass

[00:31:35] um had either first or second-hand knowledge of the anatomy of various sauropod dinosaurs so how could they

[00:31:42] have how could they have learned that one theory is he had a time machine and he jumped forward in time to the 1990s you

[00:31:49] know and then Doug looked at the dinosaur bones and then went back okay accessed the technical literature and

[00:31:56] then went back but that’s uh that’s pretty um pretty outrageous to hypothesize Bill and Ted’s Bill and

[00:32:03] Ted’s Excellent Adventure there something like that I don’t favor that explanation but uh

[00:32:10] but so so so somehow it looks like they had that um of course the uh well anyway

[00:32:16] so that puts the extinction of dinosaurs from England at you know 1400s 1500s

[00:32:23] because the artwork after those centuries no longer has a depictions of of uh

[00:32:31] dinosaur look-alikes same with similar with Europe and so

[00:32:36] we’re we looked at the Historical temperature records and it there may be a link between something called the little Ice

[00:32:44] Age back when the the Thames River it’s how they say it over there um which flows in front of um through

[00:32:51] London that the that whole river froze I mean it was so cold uh that during the

[00:32:56] little ice age it’s just natural processes like I guess the sun got real shy for you know a handful of

[00:33:04] years and that we think that that may be related to why some of those creatures went extinct during that time so climate

[00:33:11] change and um loss of habitat from climate change loss of habitat from people moving in

[00:33:17] those today are the two number one reasons why creatures go extinct today so I’m thinking those are the same

[00:33:24] reasons why dinosaurs went extinct After the flood in the days of yore

[00:33:30] so um you know I I’ve looked into this it was really funny this is like so random

[00:33:35] but I was um just looking at some different um social media feeds and I stumbled on

[00:33:42] this I I don’t know if uh you know Google overheard me talking about dinosaurs or something and started putting it in my feed or whatever but

[00:33:48] Joe Rogan popped up interviewing a guy who literally went to look for dinosaurs

[00:33:55] in the Congo and almost died in the process he said it was crazy what he was doing but he literally went by himself

[00:34:01] it’s a it is the strangest story you ever heard um about a guy that went down there

[00:34:07] looking for it he ends up almost dying he gets found by some um uh I think it’s pygmies down there

[00:34:14] who know the forest well they basically rescue him and he gets out of there he never sees anything he never finds

[00:34:19] anything he says it’s insane there’s no way you could ever find anything in that in this Forest

[00:34:24] um but I’m just curious because I I did also watch a episode where with the History Channel where William Gibbon

[00:34:30] actually goes down to the Congo also and interviews a bunch of pygmies on hey is

[00:34:36] this creature here is this alive do you think it’s possible that there’s still a creature like that in the Congo do you

[00:34:42] think uh are you is icr gonna plan a trip down to to you know down to the Congo and try to find one of these

[00:34:48] creatures uh well we don’t have any plans right now for that it’s it’s certainly

[00:34:54] possible um yeah so yeah the liquor while a swamp has had rumors coming from missionaries

[00:35:00] for uh you know early part of the 19th century Central Congo uh you know about

[00:35:06] these possible dinosaur-like creatures and uh but but like you said they’re so hard to access they’re buried in these

[00:35:12] uh deep in these swamps um and um yeah swamps are crazy uh you

[00:35:20] know even the swamps in Florida I wouldn’t want to spend one night I don’t know if I don’t know if I’d survive one night you know

[00:35:26] stuff so it so yeah that’s that’s the challenge that we’d face and what would

[00:35:31] be the prize let’s say you find a um the natives call it so that’s their

[00:35:38] name for like a sauropod dinosaur that they think is in a swamp um or they thought back in the 70s back

[00:35:43] when Roy mackel he’s a cryptozoologist from University of Chicago and he went

[00:35:49] in the eight early 80s and went you know with the help of Natives and

[00:35:54] found evidence that seemed compelling but never any hard evidence

[00:36:00] so that’s kind of where that’s kind of where it’s ended uh as far as as far as I’m concerned so I think

[00:36:07] I think if there was a dinosaur it may have gone extinct in the 90s you know yeah very recently in that location

[00:36:15] so that’s just my speculation in other words the trail would have to be hot not cold

[00:36:20] to motivate us to mount an expedition to be very costly even if we did we’d have

[00:36:27] to get we’d have to hire people because you need expertise in like jungle survival and

[00:36:33] uh you know you know translators and you know who knows what all infrastructure you’d need I’m more of a I’m more I’m

[00:36:40] more of a guy who investigates um things that I can that I can grab a hold of yeah that don’t bite back

[00:36:47] anymore yeah like this is a mosasaur tooth from North North Africa so you’re

[00:36:52] not risking your life right right exactly well yeah that’s that’s amazing do you feel like um there is a

[00:36:59] progression in the scientific Community where there’s actually a changing of the tide as far as you know are they’re

[00:37:05] becoming more uh people that are going you know what we need to take a second look at this because things are changing

[00:37:11] or um are they just finding white ways to justify uh you know some sort of a a a rescuing device to be able to prop up

[00:37:19] a a failing uh you know ideology I think when it comes to

[00:37:25] um belief in deep time which is the you know the idea that the Earth is four and a half billion years old

[00:37:33] Etc that’s just not under um scrutiny it’s not ever questioned

[00:37:39] it’s not up for Up For Debate um and yet if you’re going to go with what the Bible says straightforwardly

[00:37:46] about the past you you have to at least start to start to question why if if

[00:37:52] that’s really the history of the world why doesn’t the Bible have any of that in it instead the Bible has recent

[00:37:57] creation if you read it just like a child would read it and I think that’s what we’re supposed

[00:38:03] to do with the scripture um just read it like straightforwardly otherwise it’s going to be pretty

[00:38:08] meaningless because you’d have to get like Advanced degrees to understand what the Bible says but then that would that

[00:38:14] would defeat the purpose of having a Bible you know which is to tell us where we came from the truth about it to tell

[00:38:20] us where we’re headed to tell us what the big problem is and it’s my sin and

[00:38:25] to tell us what God’s big solution to our big problem is and so these are the big themes and if you can’t understand

[00:38:30] what the Bible’s saying then you’re never gonna you know there’s Eternal consequences to that you’re going to be

[00:38:37] lost forever so anyway all that to say um

[00:38:42] that’s the the that’s the road I had to travel as a Christian myself because I knew that the Earth was four and a half

[00:38:49] billion years old I knew you know that science proved uh millions of years I knew that you know

[00:38:55] dinosaurs lived in an age of reptiles that ended 65 million years ago and the

[00:39:00] reason I knew it is because it had been drilled Into Me by my culture uh since age six I remember I went to my first uh

[00:39:07] Dinosaur Museum in Wyoming with my uncle and it was like boom these dinosaurs on

[00:39:13] display like just like we have here behind me you know these are these are creatures that are long dead they’ve been dead for tens of millions of years

[00:39:19] and it’s like that’s and that was fact from then on well once I started reading the Bible I was like okay did God really

[00:39:25] get it this wrong like way orders of magnitude wrong right and and so then I

[00:39:33] started to look at the evidence and go okay why is it that they’re saying that it’s this old and and every

[00:39:40] every argument that I investigated it turned out to be resting more on belief

[00:39:46] than on data like it was data that were cherry-picked to fit a belief that’s

[00:39:52] what I found but you know I tried to explain that to an older third last week and he just

[00:39:59] scoffed and balked and said well I could not completely disagree so I’m like well you can disagree but I mean this is

[00:40:05] that’s the conclusion I reached after I investigated it and challenged it so we have to you know we have to be bold and

[00:40:12] brave and challenge these things and it was just yeah hardest thing for me to give up because I knew if I’m gonna go

[00:40:18] with the young Earth creation crazy people you know then then I’m not going to have

[00:40:24] friends I’m not going to be cool and just and for some folks being thought of

[00:40:29] Highly is more important than the truth and it was to me for for a

[00:40:36] long time until one day I just there was so much science that kept supporting recent creation like the blood vessels and

[00:40:43] dinosaur bones like the Earth decaying magnetic field all these things I began to study I was like

[00:40:48] you know what I’m gonna be a fool if I don’t go with where all this evidence is leading yeah that’s how I feel too I

[00:40:56] just it’s funny because I I’ve gotten to the point where I enjoy you know going into a crowd and going hey I’m a young

[00:41:02] Earth creationist and everybody’s like what the heck right I actually went to an evolutionary seminar and they did a

[00:41:08] round table discussion and there was about 10 uh evolutionists all around the

[00:41:13] table and it I don’t think they expected any creationist to show up but I just went just for the fun of it and uh I sat

[00:41:19] at the table and I I started off by saying hey I just want to let everybody know right off the bat

[00:41:25] I believe in a recent creation I’m a creationist and they about fell out of their chairs

[00:41:32] and he turned to me and goes you are really Brave coming here and I was like thinking like okay what are you guys

[00:41:37] going to do to me what’s going to happen but it ended up we had some fantastic discussions and people

[00:41:43] um really you know wanted to hear they were genuinely curious like why do you

[00:41:48] think what you think and I think once we had that conversation and I showed that this was actually logical that I wasn’t

[00:41:54] like you know just pulling something out of my ear that they were like oh wow and a couple people they just really wanted

[00:42:00] to keep talking to me it was very interesting and so you know that’s my encouragement I guess to people is that hey don’t don’t give up God you know God

[00:42:08] got Brian Thomas and um ultimately you know he can get who he needs to get so

[00:42:15] um you know thanks a lot for that that’s really encouraging well thank you that’s encouraging too because the Reason God

[00:42:20] quote unquote got me is because someone loved me enough to keep challenging me and to keep

[00:42:26] asking me questions that I couldn’t answer because he knew but I didn’t know that my faith

[00:42:33] that my faith in evolution that the evolutionary position wasn’t a very defensible one and so I’d come up with

[00:42:40] well it’s true because this and he’d say well if that’s the case then why do evolutionists themselves disagree with

[00:42:47] that evidence for evolution or whatever it may have been I’m like I never heard about any disagreement and then he would

[00:42:52] show me that show me quotes you know from evolutionists who are like no that’s not a transitional former we

[00:42:58] don’t think you know or anyway so uh so so that got

[00:43:04] me thinking right and uh so I appreciate I appreciate you making having those conversations I had one of those just

[00:43:10] recently we did a on-campus Ministry um in Missouri last week I think was it

[00:43:16] last week already uh yeah and it’s so we got some conversations with some college

[00:43:21] students just on the on the campus and uh

[00:43:27] um yes several of them several of the conversations turned like you like you

[00:43:32] described like wait you don’t believe this everyone believes Evolution why don’t you and so I was able to tell them

[00:43:38] why you know and then like so you believe Adam and Eve like let’s talk about that I actually do and here’s the reason

[00:43:44] here’s one of the reasons why I believe that and they’re like yeah then just ask me question after question because

[00:43:49] they’ve never heard someone who says they believe in Genesis and actually has reasons for believing

[00:43:56] in Genesis yeah and it’s a it’s just a fun position to be in and it’s it’s refreshing to

[00:44:02] hear you know to have conversations with folks instead of getting Tomatoes thrown at you yeah and what’s cool what I find

[00:44:09] is really interesting is that um once you become relatively knowledgeable about the science and the evidence for

[00:44:16] for example dinosaurs um it’s actually a fantastic opportunity

[00:44:21] to segue into the gospel and to the you know good news of Jesus because people

[00:44:26] are interested they’re like hey this is interesting I’ve never heard this before and I literally had a guy say that to me

[00:44:31] he goes where did you hear this he goes I have literally never heard this before and that’s a really good point he was

[00:44:38] like stunned he was just stunned um I was discussing the the uh the salt content of the ocean and he was just

[00:44:45] like what that makes total sense and so it’s just it’s just wonderful stuff so I

[00:44:50] encourage you anybody who’s listening out there um Brian Thomas has written numerous articles for icr the resource is

[00:44:58] incredible as a tool if there’s a topic you’re interested in that relates to Scientific science and creation or The

[00:45:05] evolutionary uh issues um it’s on icr’s website and you can

[00:45:10] find it it’s amazing the amount of information on there how many articles do you guys have on your on your website now

[00:45:15] I mean it’s tens of thousands probably maybe 50 000. wow that’s just that is

[00:45:22] incredible well somebody’s gone for what you guys are doing that’s just amazing

[00:45:27] well thank you for that kind word and uh uh you know if if it wasn’t the reason

[00:45:33] we’re able to do that and just post all this content for free on our website is because people

[00:45:38] love the the the very idea that we can actually explore we can actually ask

[00:45:46] questions that our secular colleagues aren’t even asking and so the creation

[00:45:51] model frees us to ask different questions entirely like can that really does it really have to be that old or

[00:45:59] um or what have you and so when we discover evidence that supports Genesis creation

[00:46:06] people love it you know people who people who already know that the Bible is true they love to see that there’s

[00:46:12] science that supports that and so that’s what lit my faith on fire honestly when I was in high school and for the first

[00:46:18] time I heard the evidence for creation I just my mind just blew up I was like

[00:46:23] wait a second it’s all real yeah I was like people need to hear this this is unreal like

[00:46:29] right I started telling my friends at school I was just like I couldn’t believe it I was just astonished and so

[00:46:35] um and I see it in my students too my students when they start to hear this stuff they just their eyes light up and they’re just like oh my gosh and they

[00:46:42] feel much more comfortable being able to actually talk to people about their faith yeah so that’s wonderful

[00:46:48] um uh again my guest today has been Brian Thomas icr.org tons of resources out there you

[00:46:54] can visit them at the at the Discovery Center in Texas Dallas Texas uh if you’re in that area wonderful

[00:47:00] opportunity you don’t want to miss it um just the amount of stuff it’ll just really encourage you and inspire you and

[00:47:05] ultimately just uh draw you into a deeper relationship with the word of God and with Jesus Christ so uh Brian thank

[00:47:12] you so much for taking the time um to be here I know you had to stay late there at the Discovery Center so thanks a lot

[00:47:17] hey it’s been my pleasure thanks for having me on board absolutely and uh we’ll be back again next week you guys

[00:47:23] uh thanks for being here we’ve had some fantastic guests recently had Mark Newman last week just just the amount of

[00:47:31] information he knew about the the Roe versus Wade issue that’s happening um was just really encouraging and a

[00:47:37] blessing and uh just his Insight was awesome all kinds of uh former radio shows that you can check out on our

[00:47:44] website and look at that also educateforlife.org is uh there for you for your family it’s a homeschool

[00:47:50] curriculum that you can use there or for Bible studies so please check that out when you get a chance thanks again for

[00:47:55] being here this evening I hope you have a fantastic week and we will see you next time God bless you

[00:48:01] when you need tires or service count on Conover tires wheels and service in Oceanside for a full range of affordable

[00:48:08] options and all the brands you trust see their great customer reviews at special offers online hours Tuesday through

[00:48:15] Friday 7 30 to 5 30 and Saturdays 7 30 to 5. call Dan and his team at

[00:48:21] 760-439-1631 Conover tires wheels and service 2405 Oceanside Boulevard in

[00:48:27] Oceanside 760-439-1631 Luke Gibson of LG equipment

[00:48:33] supports educate for life with Kevin Conover Luke grew up in the construction industry and now serves LG’s commercial

[00:48:39] and residential customers throughout Southern California whether you need grading Paving hauling demolition

[00:48:44] on-site bulk Water Service water trucks tankers and Towers call LG equipment at

[00:48:52] 619-998-0924 learn more at lgequipment.com

[00:48:59] 619-998-0924 how can you live in San Diego go and miss out on enjoying the water Fastlane kayaking sells popular

[00:49:06] Hobie Cat kayaks that you pedal not paddle that means your hands are left free for fishing and fun just throw

[00:49:13] these on your roof rack they’re light and they’re easy to use and maintain just rinse them off try one free on a

[00:49:20] demo ride for 36 years Ron and Debbie Lane have served San Diego with fun family-friendly Water Sports of All

[00:49:27] Kinds learn more fastlanesailing.com

[00:49:32] 619-222-0766 hi this is Jason Hall president of Team Home Loans a branch of

[00:49:37] synergy One Lending I just want to take this opportunity to thank Kevin Conover for the profound impact he’s had on mine

[00:49:43] and my wife’s spiritual life as well as be an incredible teacher while our kids were his students his knowledge and

[00:49:49] passion have taught us all how important it is to be Defenders of our faith it’s our honor and privilege to support Kevin

[00:49:55] and his show it is our sincere hope and prayer that you will continue to learn to be Defenders of your faith through

[00:50:00] Kevin’s radio show and through his educate for Life teachings thank you Kevin from the hall family and team home

[00:50:07] loans