Discussing the existence of the devil with Stan Grey

[00:00:01] okay thanks for being here today my name is Kevin Conover and I’m your host on educate for Life radio and we are

[00:00:06] broadcasting down here in Southern California on kpra 1210 a.m. as well as FM

[00:00:12] 106.1 in North County and then of course uh we have the podcast my website’s educated forlife.org you can check out

[00:00:18] all kinds of interesting discussions uh that I have with guests from all over the place so um guests from all

[00:00:26] different walks of life uh Christians non-believers Muslims Buddhists I’ve

[00:00:32] I’ve tried to get as many different perspectives on my uh podcast as I possibly can because I like to hear different people’s viewpoints so that

[00:00:39] I’m not missing something a lot of times we get in discussions and if it’s just in a Christian bubble um you end up

[00:00:45] frequently with straw men so something will be put up as a as a legitimate um

[00:00:51] you know argument to knock down and it’s not so we have to be careful of that we all have our own biases and it’s really

[00:00:57] helpful to hear other people’s perspectives just to get rid of those biases if you’ve listened to my show

[00:01:02] before um maybe you’ve heard uh the guest I have this evening is Stan and Stan and I met um over this past summer

[00:01:11] uh at a Homeschool Convention where uh he was with his wife looking at homeschool curriculum and he is from The

[00:01:18] Atheist persuasion and so we got into a conversation I have an apologetics table and we got into a discussion over um the

[00:01:24] existence of God and and uh related related topics and so uh Stan thanks for

[00:01:30] coming on again it’s my pleasure as always okay and our guest you just yeah

[00:01:37] absolutely for our guest you just started uh trq you w to um that’s a that’s the podcast you’re now doing is

[00:01:44] that right yes sir um I’m doing a podcast or it’s sort of just a YouTube channel at this point uh where I do

[00:01:51] videos about my deconstruction process and the questions that I grappled with on my way out of my lifelong Christian

[00:01:59] belief it’s called Stan gray- trq and the trq

[00:02:04] stands for the right questions and that’s basically what I’m after I try to ask the right questions in order to get

[00:02:11] people thinking um a little more critically about their worldview and I

[00:02:16] like to be challenged as well to make sure that I am asking the right questions you know sometimes people

[00:02:21] disagree matter of fact most of the time they do but yeah that’s what it’s all about I love it I love it and I think

[00:02:28] you know as Christians you have to be afraid of hard hard questions um God God is not up in heaven going uh don’t prove

[00:02:34] I’m not real uh if he’s the creator of the universe he can handle himself and so um you know in the Bible Paul says

[00:02:42] test everything hold fast to that which is true um even within Christian circles there are many people who believe things

[00:02:48] that that aren’t biblical they’re not based on the Bible and so you got to be be very careful um about what you say so

[00:02:55] uh iron sharpen iron sharpens iron the Bible says that’s a good thing um and tonight Stan and I are discussing the

[00:03:03] existence of the devil uh as well as questions like why would God allow the devil to exist in the first place if he

[00:03:10] knew he was going to fall and why why would God allow the devil to continue to exist uh those are big questions they’re

[00:03:17] popular on the internet and uh people have been asking them for a long time um and then of course uh Stan um also again

[00:03:25] if you listen to the previous discussion we had um he has a background in which he had a a podcast a show in which he

[00:03:32] was allowing people to discuss their spiritual experiences and then um he would he would play those out which was

[00:03:39] really cool I thought and very interesting so um Stan I’ll let you kick it off what what is why is this such a

[00:03:45] big Focus for you I mean there’s so many different questions you could ask and people ask a lot of questions they ask about things like uh was there really a

[00:03:52] worldwide flood what’s the evidence for creation versus Evolution how can Christianity be right when there’s so

[00:03:58] many other religions in the world uh but your focus um and your attention is

[00:04:03] specifically on the devil and um questions pertaining to him why is that why is that your focus well that’s my

[00:04:11] focus for today I’m I’m if you throw if you throw a rock at a Bible you’ll land on something that I have a problem with

[00:04:17] most likely I could pretty much I could pretty much give some type of of uh you

[00:04:23] know spiel about just about any biblical concept or story that I find to be

[00:04:29] somehow proba problematic you know not to sound like some kind of complainer but there really is in my opinion

[00:04:35] looking back on it and looking at it now very little redeeming value there from

[00:04:41] an objective like just standoffish well not standoffish uh standoff point of

[00:04:47] view like if you’re not already in there and you’re not already assuming that oh this is all right and if something’s

[00:04:53] wrong then I’m wrong the text is not wrong I’m wrong and you know because it’s all so good and perfect when you

[00:05:00] when you remove yourself from that uh perspective and that kind of assumption most of it falls apart in my

[00:05:07] opinion and we can I’m sure we’ll be friends for many years and we’ll talk about many of these subjects some things

[00:05:13] you might turn me around on some things who knows but um for one one of the

[00:05:19] things that I I’ve come across that is one of it’s one of the most egregious

[00:05:27] examples of something that really is incomprehensible to me are uh aspects of

[00:05:36] the story of the devil and or and Andor Satan and how it came to be what what he

[00:05:43] is and what or what it is and the Dynamics that are at play regarding this character in the whole world stage

[00:05:52] so uh unlike last time we spoke I have a little bit more of an outline to make sure that I don’t ramble too much and

[00:05:58] stay on track so I wanted to start I wanted to start like this if you don’t

[00:06:03] mind I would like to ask you a couple of questions to set the Baseline because

[00:06:08] everybody’s got a different conception of the devil and what the devil can do and how he came to be and who he is so I

[00:06:14] would like for you to give me your your understanding of who the devil is and

[00:06:21] then I’ll ask you what type of abilities and attributes do you think the devil

[00:06:28] has okay sure that’s no problem I I um yeah absolutely and I wanted to um you

[00:06:33] know it is October we just we just hit October here so uh we got Halloween coming up so big uh yeah great timing we

[00:06:42] we didn’t plan that but great Fascination and also um over the weekend Trump actually did a post which um I

[00:06:48] don’t know if you saw this did you see the prayer he posted no I didn’t let me read this real quick

[00:06:54] because this is pretty wild um he posted this I believe on X uh on Sunday this

[00:07:00] past Sunday um and it’s a pretty well-known Catholic prayer it says

[00:07:06] um it says right here St Michael the Archangel defend Us in battle be our

[00:07:12] defense against the wickedness and snares of the devil may God rebuke him we humbly pray and do thou oh Prince of

[00:07:17] the Heavenly hosts by the power of God cast into hell Satan and all the evil spirits who prowl about the world

[00:07:23] seeking the ruin of souls um and this was um actually written by Pope Leo

[00:07:30] um on in 1884 after he had a vision and it was actually recited after Mass um in

[00:07:37] the Catholic Church um up until 1965 and so uh Trump kind of uh brought

[00:07:44] it back uh over the weekend and um caused lots of controversy and lots of

[00:07:50] people with uh opinions about you know the devil so the devil’s been um in

[00:07:55] there so to answer your question as far as my view view on the devil um I I do my best to stick by the Bible

[00:08:02] as much as as possible so um I as a Evangelical Bible beli in Christian um I

[00:08:08] believe the Bible is the final authority of uh a Christian’s life and for that

[00:08:14] reason um whenever I am talking about the metaphysics of Christianity and metaphysics are the things that you

[00:08:20] can’t technically prove like scientifically prove right um whenever it has to do with the spiritual World um

[00:08:27] I try to refer to the and try to base what I think off the Bible as far as I can understand um he was an angel that

[00:08:34] was created and um at some point he chose to reject god um and judgment uh

[00:08:42] he experienced a certain amount of judgment immediately and that was uh

[00:08:47] that you can’t have my place God said you cannot take my place and then um God

[00:08:53] used him for his purposes and has continued to use him for his purposes um

[00:08:59] in to a large degree so uh the Bible Jesus calls him the father of Lies um

[00:09:06] and he says that he’s seeking uh whom he may devour uh that he is the prince of

[00:09:11] the air and um has a a great deal of influence on the earth the Bible actually warns us that we have to take

[00:09:18] up um Spiritual armor uh metaphorically uh through you know uh the shield of

[00:09:24] Faith um the breastplate of righteousness the helmet of salvation uh the sword of spirit and says that this

[00:09:31] is necessary because specifically your battle is not against flesh and blood but against the spiritual powers in The

[00:09:37] Heavenly Realms um so so uh I guess in a nutshell that would be my view of the

[00:09:42] devil it’s it’s a very bible-based uh view okay so you believe he’s an angel

[00:09:49] that rejected god let’s take a quick aside because that’s one of my biggest

[00:09:55] issues with the story of Satan imagine uh the the common belief among

[00:10:03] Christians myself formerly included is that Satan was formerly one of the most

[00:10:10] powerful beautiful and um you know highly stationed angels in God’s

[00:10:18] Heavenly Host right so Satan or I guess

[00:10:23] Lucifer because at some point in prehistory he was Greek I guess you know you went by a Greek Greek name

[00:10:31] um this entity was face to face uhhuh

[00:10:36] with the almighty Creator his own Creator knew him intimately more so than

[00:10:41] any human being ever could imagine knowing him you

[00:10:47] know but yet this entity I imagine he’s pretty smart right but he because of his

[00:10:56] I guess Pride convinced himself that he would be able to somehow defeat

[00:11:03] God right usurp God with all his unlimited power and wisdom and and

[00:11:10] omnipresence and omnipotence and everything a lowly Angel believed that

[00:11:16] he could defeat God that’s thing number one that makes no

[00:11:23] sense to me I couldn’t imagine how you know that that that there’s I I couldn’t

[00:11:29] imagine how anybody could ever see that as a reasonable

[00:11:34] expectation but according to the you know this is not even really in the Bible but the lore

[00:11:43] Christianity he was able to also convince as many as 300,000 300 million

[00:11:50] 333 million a third of the entire Heavenly Host to also think the same

[00:11:55] completely idiotic and foolish idea that hey you know what not

[00:12:02] only are we going to go against twice as many of our own kind say it’s there say

[00:12:09] there was a million angels in existence we got 333,000 we’re going to go up

[00:12:14] against 666,000 angels and God and we’re going

[00:12:20] to somehow usurp God’s power and install Lucifer who’s a who’s an angel he’s a

[00:12:28] pretty cool angel but he’s still just an angel compared to God which is literally

[00:12:33] nothing we’re gonna we’re going to beat this we’re going to win we got a chance here guys let’s go what was the locker

[00:12:39] room talk like back then when the Angels were deciding to go against that

[00:12:44] insurmountable opposition you know when you think about it it’s it really is just a story but

[00:12:51] when you really think about the logistics of it it it’s completely counterintuitive to me do you have a um

[00:12:58] I better idea well my response to this would be that so I always withhold judgment when

[00:13:06] it comes to biblical things when there are variables that are left out that I don’t necessarily know so for example in

[00:13:13] the Old Testament the Jews don’t very they have very little description of Heaven or Hell or the afterlife at all

[00:13:20] they just refer to it as Hades and so for them to make any judgments about how things work in the afterlife it’s very

[00:13:27] very difficult for them to make any kind of convincing statement even from a metaphysical perspective and so

[00:13:34] considering all the different variables that are that are in play here I feel like we’re missing so much information

[00:13:42] that to make any kind of a judgment about whether that’s dumb on his part or

[00:13:47] not is very difficult um I’ll just give you one example so this I thought about

[00:13:52] this question a little bit but I think and and again take this with a grain of salt because it’s metaphysics and it’s

[00:13:59] just me brainstorming um I think that there is a possibility that Satan’s goal

[00:14:05] is to make God out to be a liar um because the Bible very specifically says that God cannot lie and that he is

[00:14:12] perfect and so I think one of Satan’s strategies is to say really you think you’re so I don’t think it’s a physical

[00:14:18] domination I think it’s um a domination of who’s right so who is the one who is

[00:14:25] right in this situation and what is appropriate and I think people do the same thing to God they

[00:14:31] they challenge God and say I don’t think you made the right decision here um and I think Satan um does the same thing he

[00:14:37] basically says look it I don’t think you made the right decision here and so in in an effort to show that God is faulty

[00:14:44] um I think that he tries to thwart God’s plans and

[00:14:50] specifically I think he’s well aware that he can’t overpower him but I think he believes that if he can show that God

[00:14:57] is not all all knowing is not the smartest is not the the morally um best

[00:15:05] then I think that for him that counts as a defeat and so I think the persuasion

[00:15:10] that took place is probably more along the lines of hey guys we can do better than this in the same way that he did

[00:15:17] with Eve um in the garden which was you can do better than this um God does not

[00:15:23] have that your best interest at heart he’s not as smart or as good as you think he is and he really doesn’t love

[00:15:28] you as much as you you think he does and I think I think he honestly believes

[00:15:34] that I don’t think that this is just him in an effort to not just thwart thwart

[00:15:40] um you know people from knowing the Lord I think it’s actually he I think he thinks this is the case and if you’ve

[00:15:46] ever talked to a Satanist satanists actually believe that the devil is the good guy in this whole scenario that he

[00:15:54] he put his finger to the man the man was trying to tell everybody what to do and

[00:15:59] Satan um was the the first Rebel um saying I’m going to do things my way and

[00:16:06] you can’t tell me what to do so they don’t see Satan as the bad guy they see Satan as the good guy um who says we

[00:16:13] should all be able to live the way we want to live without this guy constantly looking over our shoulder and telling us what to

[00:16:19] do I understand I mean I also understand that you know you kind of have to make

[00:16:25] up the the concept of of that in order to fit it in and make it more reasonable

[00:16:32] and I will I will grant that I will grant that none of this both of the stories we just talked about none of

[00:16:37] that’s in the Bible so that’s just something that’s just something that I’ve I thought of that I’m like okay I

[00:16:44] guess in this case we have to just say who knows how when and why

[00:16:51] Satan ended up how he is now you know or what what what his origin story is I

[00:16:57] guess nobody careed to write it down or God didn’t care to actually communicate

[00:17:03] that to people when he was telling them what to write in the Bible yeah well there’s enough details in the Bible I

[00:17:08] mean there’s quite a few details about the devil and um but but I don’t I like

[00:17:14] you said I mean if you study it I think you can learn quite a bit about the devil but I don’t think it’s the

[00:17:21] priority in God’s eyes I think he’s given us what we need and then uh you

[00:17:26] know CS Lewis said there’s two erors one is to be overly obsessed with the devil and the other is to uh uh not pay him

[00:17:33] any attention at all and so I think that’s what the Bible is doing is giving us what we need but I mean I see what

[00:17:41] your I see your point there but the devil is the most

[00:17:47] consequential and destructive villain in history in the

[00:17:53] history of creation according to the Bible so a little information about that

[00:17:59] that character and you know even and I I’ve been thinking about this too because I write a lot of little you know

[00:18:05] kind of blurbs about this type of stuff even you know he didn’t even warn

[00:18:12] Adam and Eve about the devil you know assuming that the serpent is is the

[00:18:18] devil you know in that story even though it doesn’t actually say that that’s another you know somewhat read into the

[00:18:24] story of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden it says it basically just says hey

[00:18:30] there was a talking snake and he spoke to them and he convinced Eve to eat the

[00:18:35] fruit but God never God didn’t tell Adam and Eve like hey by the way there’s a

[00:18:41] serpent in here that’s probably going to try to tell you to not do what I told you to do uh don’t listen to that guy

[00:18:46] he’s really really bad and he could ruin everything for you and cause you to get kicked out of the garden uh he didn’t he

[00:18:53] didn’t even warn the first two people about the existence of Satan if that serpent was you know what I’m saying

[00:19:00] well we don’t know for sure that he didn’t warn them the Bible doesn’t say that he that he did or he didn’t warn

[00:19:06] them and we have to be careful about assuming that because something’s not specifically in the Bible that it’s

[00:19:14] something that didn’t happen you have to be careful about that because you know in the I believe it was John who said if

[00:19:21] if everything was written about what Jesus did the the you couldn’t fill all the books in the world um meaning there

[00:19:28] there’s only so much that they that was written down and so I think we have to be careful about assuming that God

[00:19:34] didn’t warn them um we don’t integral that would be a crucial detail to

[00:19:40] Omit think about it well again that that’s subjective I I mean that’s not an objective statement you may feel that

[00:19:47] it’s crucial but if it’s not in there then the author specifically even if you

[00:19:53] don’t believe it’s inspired by God the author didn’t think that that was the critical component of the story he

[00:19:59] thought there was something else more important well I mean from a literary standpoint if if the main characters

[00:20:05] were were warned about the thing that causes their very downfall and they ignored the warning

[00:20:12] that’s a totally different story than people who had no idea that there was a

[00:20:18] villain among them and then they fall victim to that

[00:20:23] villain those are two totally different stories you know what I’m saying but apparently well I understand what you’re

[00:20:29] saying but apparently um the warn the author considered that the warning God

[00:20:34] gave them not to eat from the tree was sufficient regardless of whether or not

[00:20:39] um he wasn’t going to physically force them to eat it they didn’t have to do that and they weren’t stupid people they

[00:20:46] were smart and so uh apparently being being talked to isn’t justification and

[00:20:52] this is why God doesn’t actually let them get away with the man blaming the woman and the woman blaming the snake he

[00:20:58] doesn’t actually say oh that’s legitimate you wouldn’t have done it otherwise so again I mean it’s a it’s a

[00:21:05] subjective perspective to say I think this should have been included but the author for whatever reason thought no no

[00:21:13] no that’s not the main issue of the story we’re dealing with here it’s that they of their own will actually made

[00:21:20] this decision it wasn’t something they were forced into and they weren’t a victim of their circumstances this was their own

[00:21:27] choosing so okay so we are going to have to have a conversation about predestination and

[00:21:34] free will because we did touch touch on that last time and I’ve I’ve had I’ve thought about that so much ever since

[00:21:40] then so maybe next time maybe you come on my show and we’ll talk about that that sounds like a good uh a good

[00:21:46] episode idea and I’ve been waiting to get some some interviews on my show I

[00:21:51] have some stuff that’ll blow your mind on that okay well that’s uh let’s let’s talk about that offline later okay that

[00:21:59] sounds good so I get what you’re saying I Now understand what your idea of who

[00:22:08] Satan is is so let’s talk about Satan’s abilities

[00:22:14] right you said he’s uh let’s see he’s been well he you said he’s the father of

[00:22:20] Lies as Jesus says uh Jesus also said he was a murderer from the

[00:22:26] beginning a lot of uh questions come up with that that phrase

[00:22:33] murderer from the beginning uh what beginning the beginning of what the beginning of time the beginning of his

[00:22:38] creation the beginning of man the beginning Jesus the Gard of Eden Jesus

[00:22:44] most likely what he’s referring to there is very specifically the beginning of man Jesus is because he actually does

[00:22:50] uses this phrase again um where he says in the beginning God made them male and female um so it looks like he’s

[00:22:57] referring to the days of creation most in the beginning God made the heavens and the Earth so probably he’s he’s

[00:23:04] referring to the the beginning and he’s referring to what um sat Satan’s

[00:23:11] deception his involvement in the Bible says in Romans sin brought death into

[00:23:17] the world and so that’s what he’s probably referring to is the death that was a result of Satan’s deception um to

[00:23:25] a degree right again not not avoiding that the and Eve had the freedom to to make that choice so um you know there’s

[00:23:33] a verse in Proverbs that says he who does not discipline his child is a willing party to his debt and in James

[00:23:39] it says he who knows the good he ought to do and doesn’t do it it is sin for him so so I don’t believe this

[00:23:47] physical uh uh no no God I mean if God there’s a lot of good things God could

[00:23:53] do that he doesn’t do right well okay that’s a before before

[00:23:58] we hop there let me finish the part yeah you’re right I’m sorry I’m sorry I’m I’m the master of

[00:24:07] tangents I took the they’re also honestly they’re all so interesting so I I agree yeah so so I would

[00:24:14] say what Jesus is referring to there when he calls him a murderer is he’s saying he’s saying this is his heart his

[00:24:22] heart is to murder the people that God loves and you know I

[00:24:29] the answer so I have this discussion with students um is why does Satan hate

[00:24:35] God so much well well first of all he hates God because he doesn’t agree with his moral positions um again take that

[00:24:42] with a grain of salt but that’s what I get from the scriptures and then secondly he can’t hurt God so who do you

[00:24:48] hurt when you can’t hurt the person that you want to hurt you hurt the people they love and so it looks like Satan is

[00:24:55] fundamentally out to get people because God loves people he’s doesn’t like God but he can’t hurt God

[00:25:01] so that’s why Jesus would call him a murderer from the beginning okay so would you say that the

[00:25:10] connotation of the word murder and I I would have to look up what you know who knows what Jesus actually said in the

[00:25:16] Aramaic but in the Greek the word murder would that I mean do you happen

[00:25:22] to know the atmology of that word that he whatever word that he used I don’t recall it off the top of my head I’m not

[00:25:28] a Greek scholar or anything but murder usually implies that the person who gets

[00:25:34] murdered is innocent like they didn’t deserve to be murdered

[00:25:40] right yeah not by the devil so God God’s uh judgment is dust because he’s the

[00:25:46] judge Satan is not the judge he’s a vigilante right quote except he’s not a vigilante he’s evil so so if somebody

[00:25:52] carries out judgment and they’re not in the position to judge then they are a murderer

[00:25:58] right if they if they were to kill somebody who they didn’t have the right to to carry out that job then they’re a

[00:26:04] murderer even if that person is a just a completely vile

[00:26:11] reprobate human who deserves death absolutely will chose death would

[00:26:17] it be right for me to go kill somebody who I was like yeah you’re a murderer and I’m going to bring judgment on you

[00:26:24] because I’ve decided you’re the you’re a bad person I that’s the problem is I

[00:26:29] don’t have the moral High Ground in the New Testament Jesus says man’s anger does not bring about the righteous life

[00:26:35] that God requires and it’s he specifically says man’s anger because

[00:26:40] man doesn’t make good judgments and doesn’t know when it’s appropriate to be angry and when it’s not and

[00:26:48] so that’s the difference between go Christ I mean sorry God carrying out

[00:26:53] judgment versus the devil carrying out judgment okay so he has the ability to

[00:27:00] lie he has the ability to indirectly murder couple other things that the

[00:27:07] Bible says that he has the abilities to do masquerade as an angel of Light as

[00:27:13] you probably have heard the ability to deceive well-meaning Christians into

[00:27:19] believing wrong things is that would you agree with

[00:27:24] that so the Bible says that um that you have to watch out because your

[00:27:31] enemy The Devil is roaming around looking for whom he may devour so I

[00:27:38] would say to an extent that a Christian definitely needs to be careful um

[00:27:45] because because that’s why you have to take up the the armor of God because we are not in a we’re not in heaven yet

[00:27:52] we’re still in a place where there is a lot of spiritual conflict so I you’re not careful yes you can be

[00:27:59] deceived yeah I mean growing up in the church I heard a million different times

[00:28:04] about you know certain other denominations that believe they were they had sincere beliefs that they are

[00:28:12] Christians and they are practicing the right way but you know the people in the church that I’m at might say hey well

[00:28:18] though those people that are like carrying juggling snakes and stuff like that yeah they’re being deceived by the devil or people who speak in tongues too

[00:28:25] much they’re being deceived by the devil or people who don’t speak in tongues are they’re they’re actually following the

[00:28:30] devil you know that in that in uh let me see what is this Matthew 24:24 it it

[00:28:37] describes that even the elect could be deceived you

[00:28:43] know indirectly by The Works of and the product of Satan Satan right Satan’s

[00:28:51] influence um Matthew 24:24 also describes him as being able to basically

[00:28:58] EMP power human beings to use magic and perform Miracles and signs things like

[00:29:05] that right uh um yes so I mean even in

[00:29:10] in Egypt the the sorcerers were able to in somewhat

[00:29:16] um deceive people because they were able to turn their stabs into snakes and try to copy

[00:29:23] Moses um so there is a certain amount of power that it looks like the devil does have

[00:29:28] it’s too bad he doesn’t do that these days we wouldn’t be talking right now who who are you talking about if Satan

[00:29:34] was still allowing people to perform magical Feats and you know transfiguring

[00:29:40] thing transfiguring things and all kinds of miraculous signs you know I would be

[00:29:46] I don’t think there would be as many atheists around I actually think that it’s that

[00:29:51] that that is happening I actually think that the devil is doing things that are

[00:29:58] deceiving people but let me read this quote to you this this is again is if CS

[00:30:03] Lewis wrote a lot about the devil because he wrote the screw tape letters but this is this is his uh a quote from

[00:30:10] him this is from God in the dock if de if Devils exist their first aim is to give you an anesthetic to put you off

[00:30:17] your guard only if that fails do you become aware of them um I think the

[00:30:22] devil has a very very clear objective and sometimes that involves him uh

[00:30:28] doing things that are what would we would call like manifesting in a sense

[00:30:33] but other times it’s being as um absent as possible

[00:30:39] because his absence is what will achieve the goal you I mean you just said it yourself I think we’d have a lot fewer a

[00:30:45] atheists if the devil was doing all these things and I think goodat say yeah

[00:30:52] I would say he knows that touche touche so so here here’s a question if

[00:30:59] if the devil is being so hidden that people are just forgetting about his existence how would we know the

[00:31:05] difference between a devil that is purposefully trying to hide himself and a devil that does not

[00:31:11] exist well I can tell you a story that’s kind of a crazy story but I I had never

[00:31:17] had any kind of involvement with spiritual influences to any significant

[00:31:22] degree um until I was in college and I was volunteering uh in a a church in the

[00:31:29] youth ministry and I stumbled on a kid just through pure accident who I I was

[00:31:36] having a discussion with him and I said hey would you like to pray um and not

[00:31:41] knowing I I I had just met him I said and he was um he was like tearing up he

[00:31:47] was an 11th grade kid in school he had been talking in youth group I kind of reprimanded him and he he got teary eyed

[00:31:55] and I said hey man I wasn’t trying to like be a you or anything um I I I just

[00:32:00] wanted you to stop talking that’s all and I said look why don’t we just pray and I and then I said hey why don’t you

[00:32:06] pray and he immediately said I can’t pray and I I was like what I said you

[00:32:13] mean you don’t want to pray and he said no no I can’t pray and I stopped the conversation because um I was

[00:32:20] immediately thinking to myself wait something is going something’s not normal here so I ended up having a

[00:32:26] conversation with him he actually told me later on that when he tries to pray

[00:32:31] and he was very hesitant to tell me this you can tell it wasn’t something he wanted to share because he knew I he he

[00:32:37] he had probably shared it in the past and gotten a bad response and he said to me um I said do you mean like a a demon

[00:32:45] comes and tries to stop you from praying and he said yeah and I was like whoa that’s wild I had never heard that

[00:32:52] before i’ had never experienced anything like that before I ended up I’m I’m going to cut the story way short cuz it

[00:32:58] was it’s a it’s kind of a long story but I ended up actually reading through scripture with him and I actually saw it

[00:33:04] happen I saw it was like out of a movie which it’s hard to to believe this I

[00:33:09] know when you hear it but it was like I was watching a movie what the way he responded his voice got quieter he began

[00:33:16] crying profusely um just acting really strange

[00:33:22] and then as soon as I stopped um asking him to quote verses with me it it went

[00:33:27] away it was bizarre anyway very very long story but what I would say is is if the devil gets

[00:33:33] a foothold in a person’s life and he has the power to prevent them from moving

[00:33:39] forward in um pursuing Christ then he

[00:33:44] will be involved for as long as he can to and this was probably a demon not the devil um he will be involved for as long

[00:33:52] as he can holding that person back from moving forward towards Christ and he’ll

[00:33:58] remain hidden so this kid as long as the kid didn’t pray or read his Bible or go to church this kid was completely fine I

[00:34:05] started bringing him to church I started trying to read the Bible with him and I started trying to pray with him and all

[00:34:11] everything went crazy and so um this is and this is not unusual for people who

[00:34:18] have experienced this sort of thing but um that would be the times in which the devil goes well if the devil goes look

[00:34:26] this person’s not even trying to get to Christ then he just avoids them but if the person is looking like they’re

[00:34:31] starting to move towards Christ the de demon or whatever he’s going to do what he can to try to push them away from

[00:34:39] that activity um and sometimes he’s successful and and other times he’s

[00:34:45] not H okay that’s an definitely an interesting anecdote there and like I

[00:34:52] like we’ve said before there’s a lot of phenomenon out there that I can’t say that I understand and that I can point

[00:34:59] put my finger on exactly what it is and how it works a lot of the Demonic

[00:35:05] activity in my opinion is psychological you know and it doesn’t have to be anything beyond that

[00:35:12] even in the Bible the boy the little boy that Jesus heals and he he basically

[00:35:18] they’re describing that a little kid literally has epilepsy and Jesus describes that as a demon in my opinion

[00:35:25] because they didn’t know what the heck epilepsy was at the time and that it wasn’t really a demon if you ask me to

[00:35:32] me there’s a lot of things that happen that are more that way it’s psychological or or uh you know nothing

[00:35:39] metaphysical about it just purely mundane Human Experience but there could

[00:35:45] be other things there could be more to it that I just don’t know so I’m not going to I’m not going to try to deny I

[00:35:52] would say no and I I mean you know you wish that that people

[00:35:59] could be there when something like this happens and and see what’s going on because I I feel like somebody would

[00:36:05] have an incredibly difficult time explaining this through any kind of psychological phenomenon um now I do

[00:36:13] believe that the the creation that God had has made is incredibly integrated

[00:36:18] meaning I do believe that the spirit the physical body is incredibly integrated

[00:36:24] and so the psychological ISS issues um spiritual issues uh demonic issues I

[00:36:32] think there’s actually overlap that’s my personal Viewpoint and so I don’t think there’s always overlap sometimes it’s

[00:36:39] strictly biology that’s causing the problem um but other times I think that

[00:36:44] there is a combination of um both a spiritual uh ailment as well as a

[00:36:50] potentially a biological ailment so there may be times where obviously if Jesus raises the Dead He’s dealing with

[00:36:57] the bi the biolog biological there I mean he somehow is reanimating physical

[00:37:03] cells um but on the other hand when he’s dealing with this kid who’s he says the

[00:37:08] father throws him into the fire the demon throws him into the fire throws him into the water he shakes uncontrollably and then later on the

[00:37:15] disciples say hey how come we couldn’t deal with this and Jesus says only be done through prayer prayer and fasting

[00:37:22] and so uh it’s that’s a really interesting statement to me because I don’t know that Jesus always explained

[00:37:27] to the disciples every little bit that was happening um and it could be in that case he didn’t feel that it was worth it

[00:37:33] to explain the biological issue of epilepsy um and so I just don’t know

[00:37:41] what what he was doing there you know what how where the overlap is and where that line you know stops so yeah okay

[00:37:49] well I mean I would have been I would have been very uh happy if

[00:37:55] Jesus was to say hey actually that wasn’t a demon guys that was a disease

[00:38:00] and uh they don’t know you don’t know about it now but the people reading this book 2,000 years from now they’re going to know about it and that’s all that was

[00:38:07] you know and I healed him of the disease great you know that instead of saying hey when someone’s acting like this it

[00:38:14] means they have a demon in them that’s that’s kind of a that could be a that could be a well don’t take my words out

[00:38:20] of context I I mean what I mean here is is um I I don’t want to say so for

[00:38:26] example when when the person has leprosy in the 10 10 lepers and he heals the 10 lepers he doesn’t say anything about a

[00:38:32] demon so chances are there was a demon involved in that situation um to one degree or another I I don’t know you

[00:38:38] know where that is but he doesn’t mention it in many other times when he heals a person when he hears heals the

[00:38:43] woman who has an issue of blood yeah there’s no mention of a demon so chances

[00:38:49] are that there was demonic influence there and it wasn’t strictly an issue of seizures or something like that so well

[00:38:56] well without being without about getting off on another tangent I mean the idea is that Jesus could heal he could both

[00:39:03] deal with demons and he could also heal physical ailments like the guy with the withered hand or Lazarus or any number

[00:39:11] of people that he he just he just healed the ill the illness that you had so

[00:39:16] necessarily I mean I don’t think there was any in in you know indication that everything that Jesus did was driving

[00:39:23] out demons in some respect or another so I mean I would have I would imagine it’s

[00:39:28] conceivable that you know it it would have not nobody would have B batted an eye if the kid was literally epileptic

[00:39:37] and Jesus said yeah this is a sickness and I just healed it you know period and

[00:39:42] moved on his way I mean I’m just saying like hypothetically if that had happened nobody would have questioned it you know

[00:39:49] but this that’s besides the point so let’s uh let’s go back I I still got my little couple points left on the outline

[00:39:55] to discuss this is going great so far

[00:40:01] so you believe that God is all knowing he’s outside of time he’s able to see everything at all times every possible

[00:40:09] thing going to happen you’re moving into the predestination question uh not quite I mean I I got a

[00:40:15] lot to say about that as as do you but this is more uh of a culpability

[00:40:22] question okay so just so you’re aware what what the questions you’re you’re asking right now pertain like

[00:40:30] intensively to the discussion over predestination and God’s for knowledge

[00:40:36] and these sorts of things which in my opinion we should save it for the the

[00:40:41] time I come on your show and we talk about it I’ll I’ll answer it if you I know I see what you’re saying but this

[00:40:46] is a different I’m kind of going a different route I I know exactly what you mean so and stop me if if uh I’m

[00:40:53] going in that direction because I definitely want to talk about that uh in its own thing but yeah yeah God knowing

[00:41:01] exactly what Satan would end up doing why would he choose to create

[00:41:09] Satan in the first place why did he create Lucifer knowing that hey one day

[00:41:14] this individual if I create him in just this way he’s going to grow up as a

[00:41:19] beautiful angel but then one day he’s going to get get angry with me he’s going to think he can do better than me or he’s going to try to prove me wrong

[00:41:26] he’s going to convince a third of my angels to rebel against me I’m going to ca cast all of them down to earth and

[00:41:32] then they’re going to torment my next Pet Project Humanity for thousands of

[00:41:39] years Generations are going to be lost uh billions of souls are going to end up

[00:41:44] burning with him or or in isolation with him how about I just don’t create that

[00:41:51] guy or don’t I me create him but make him like a regular Angel not the most powerful Angel who’s going to use those

[00:41:57] those same powers to you know really mess up my entire creation and bring

[00:42:04] death into into the world which I mean did he not intend for death to come into the world or did he know that it was

[00:42:10] going to and he had no problem with it you know why create Satan and allow him

[00:42:16] to persist with all the powers and and the and the amazing abilities that he

[00:42:21] has to this very day your I have yeah I have an answer to

[00:42:27] this that’s in my in my opinion is a really really really good answer and it

[00:42:33] it’s not a well-known answer um but if I give you the answer basically I’m

[00:42:39] launching into everything that that has to do with

[00:42:45] the way time works that has to do with the way predestination works that has to do with God’s for knowledge that has to

[00:42:52] do with all these sorts of things so I I honestly think it we should save that

[00:42:58] question for the next show um unless there’s unless that’s the last question you have and you wanna you want just

[00:43:05] going on it but well that that was basically the root of the next couple questions because the next things I have

[00:43:11] up are okay like not only did he create this being

[00:43:17] that is going to be literally able to rise to the level where he’s being called the God of this world the ability

[00:43:24] to to deceive and murder and destroy and bring damnation

[00:43:31] to Untold not Bas probably most people ever most human beings are going to end

[00:43:37] up being tricked and or falling into the same hole that Satan’s going into most

[00:43:45] people very few people in history will have accepted Jesus Christ as their savior right I mean percentage wise it’s

[00:43:52] going to be a very small number of people relatively okay so I’m going to try to answer some of what you’re saying

[00:43:59] without going into the the question of God’s for knowledge because I I I really

[00:44:05] want to save that for when we talk next on your podcast which we can do very soon if you want to um because I love

[00:44:11] talking about that subject uh it’s one of my favorite subjects to talk about but in regards to why would without

[00:44:19] answering why would he create this creature knowing that he was going to do this I would say that a a good question

[00:44:27] to answer is why does God continue to allow him to exist if he’s already done

[00:44:33] this which is a relevant question which I think and again this is a bit of

[00:44:38] metaphysics so you have to be a little bit careful I think you can infer it from certain scriptures but I also think

[00:44:44] you have to be careful um so I would say that part of the reason is when a child

[00:44:51] knows that there’s danger um out there the child is more likely to STI to the

[00:44:59] parent and there may be benefits to sticking close to the parent

[00:45:04] besides some great evil right so what I mean is is if you were out on Safari and

[00:45:10] the the Safari guide said there’s no dangerous animals out here at all you

[00:45:16] might just go off on your own and just be like well great I’ll be fine I’m just going to go on my own but as soon as you

[00:45:23] know that there’s a lion out there then you’re going to stick with the Safari guy you’re going to go back to him you’re going to go hey are we you know

[00:45:29] we going in the right direction am I doing the right thing is the line nearby and you’re going to be far more likely

[00:45:35] to seek the guidance of the guide because of the fact that you’re well aware there’s a danger out there that

[00:45:42] that that you you in trouble with if you don’t stick with the guide um so now I’m

[00:45:47] not saying that explanation does not explain why God created the devil in the first place if he knew what Satan was going to

[00:45:54] do it doesn’t explain that and I acknowledge that because I do have an explanation for that but I do think it’s a good

[00:46:01] explanation for why God would allow the devil to persist um and what he does I

[00:46:06] also think that uh in the Garden of Eden the the the Bible says that there

[00:46:13] needs to be an evidence that you love God right and your wife wants this too right she doesn’t just want to hear you

[00:46:20] say you love her my wife doesn’t just want to hear me say I love her she wants some evidence of it some sort of action

[00:46:28] that shows it because actions speak louder than words and talk is cheap and

[00:46:34] it seems to be that God is the same way and part of the reason the tree had to be in the garden in the first place was

[00:46:41] because without that tree and an opport opportunity to do what God didn’t want

[00:46:46] them to do there would be no evidence of their love for him so so God put the

[00:46:52] tree in the garden specifically so that love could exist or the the um awareness of Love could exist

[00:47:01] through a person’s actions as long as you don’t eat from the tree it’s clear to me that you have regard for me and

[00:47:07] for what I say and that you care about me even to an extent greater than your own pleasure because it it looked the

[00:47:14] fruit looked he made it look really delicious to human eyes so basically it

[00:47:19] was like now it’s not the same as what we had because they had no sin nature so meaning there was not the same

[00:47:25] inclination toward sin that we had so you might say well God put them in a

[00:47:31] position that was really untenable but as far as we can tell this isn’t the case it wasn’t this natural inclination

[00:47:40] towards evil that’s why Jesus is called the second Adam because he was created

[00:47:45] in Mary’s womb without the um Heritage of sin the

[00:47:51] genetic passing down of sin so Jesus and Adam both did not have an inclination

[00:47:58] towards sin as far as what the Bible teaches so they didn’t have to eat that

[00:48:04] that from the tree and they could have continued to show God their their love

[00:48:09] for him what I was and this is this is a huge part of the predestination talk which would 100% will be doing uh

[00:48:17] whenever it works out but in the it does say that the the fruit looked good for

[00:48:23] food it it looked appealing to them God could have made it look hideous it could have made it look dangerous had spikes

[00:48:29] on it could have made it bright yellow and green dripping po looking like poison and you know but then it wouldn’t

[00:48:37] have been tempting for them they wouldn’t have even thought about eating it most likely so it had the whole thing

[00:48:45] is it had to happen you know it it if it didn’t happen I mean it

[00:48:52] was set up and he knew it was going to happen he didn’t do anything to stop it

[00:48:57] but you know this this is this is all so interconnected with that conversation

[00:49:03] you know it is I wish we had another two hours your your wife does not want

[00:49:08] something from you that cost you nothing right so and because love isn’t

[00:49:16] demonstrated through something that is no of no effort right I know I knew a guy who who bought his wife for her

[00:49:24] birthday she wanted a car he bought her a VW van this was a long time ago when

[00:49:30] VW Vans were popular but she knew it was the car he wanted and so he bought it

[00:49:37] and she started crying when she got it because she knew it it wasn’t because he loved her it was because he found a way

[00:49:45] to satisfy himself while getting her a gift and the same is true in this

[00:49:50] scenario is that if it if it looked hideous then God would

[00:49:56] have been like well of course you didn’t eat it uh that took no effort at all so

[00:50:01] in in order for love to actually be recognized there has to be some sort of

[00:50:07] a sacrifice on behalf of the husband for the wife or the wife for the husband if

[00:50:13] there’s no sacrifice involved then you’re still at the point where you don’t know if the person actually loves you or not or if they’re just you know

[00:50:21] who knows what right and I think and I think this is the same with God

[00:50:28] okay that is uh we’re going to have to let put a pin in that uh because of this

[00:50:35] whole predestination thing which is that’s the thing that I’m like really on locked into right now uh I just did a

[00:50:43] video on my on my channel called God wanted the fall of Man to happen and

[00:50:50] it’s uh pretty controversial uh uh and maybe I’ll send you the link to that so you could look

[00:50:56] at it then we could talk about the predestination stuff and what I had to say in that video before our next uh our

[00:51:02] next talk I think I think what what I bring up um when you invite me on and we

[00:51:07] talk about this I think it’s going to give you a whole new angle on this subject that you probably very very few

[00:51:15] Christians even know about it um surprisingly so yeah that’ll that’ll be interesting uh one one thing um I’m the

[00:51:24] audience here our listeners yeah that’s what we like to do you know you got to set up the next the sequel you know what

[00:51:29] I’m saying we always have these good conversations um before we go there’s

[00:51:35] one thing that happened to me today that I wanted to when when these these two young gentlemen look like teenagers came

[00:51:41] to my door freaking huge dudes they both of them were taller than me I’m 6’4 and

[00:51:47] very rarely do I open my door and somebody’s like two people taller than

[00:51:52] me are standing there but these these these young fellas were uh of the Church

[00:51:58] of uh Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints first time Jehovah’s Witnesses come to my house all the time a lot of older

[00:52:05] gentlemen I I invite them in we talk and we go back and forth and uh you know

[00:52:11] unfortunately they’re in a cult so it’s it’s pretty difficult to get them to

[00:52:17] acknowledge anything that goes against what they already believe um and

[00:52:23] but these these LDS gentlemen they showed me I asked them some of these

[00:52:29] questions these same same things that we’re talking about right now including the predestination stuff and um I was

[00:52:36] talking to for about a half an hour and I said hey don’t you guys I mean what

[00:52:42] how do you feel about the fact that you know in order for human humankind to serve the purposes basically choose good

[00:52:48] over evil evil had to have existed and evil must you know something had to happen it couldn’t have just been

[00:52:55] everybody’s frolicking in the garden of beeden for all eternity had to be something that messed all that up and

[00:53:00] plus God kind of knew ahead of time that that was what’s going to happen anyway and they showed me a book uh a verse

[00:53:06] from their Book of Mormon I think it was Nephi um that actually basically says in

[00:53:15] in I’m paraphrasing but it’s basically like hey the Devil exist the fall of Man

[00:53:21] happened because God who knows everything he set it up and he knew that

[00:53:26] that man had to fall in order for uh the relationship of humankind to get closer

[00:53:33] to God by being able to choose him over evil over evil and sin if evil and sin

[00:53:40] are not in the world then you know we’re basically we would just be like sheep is

[00:53:46] what the book of Nephi says which was shocking to me because I’m like wow this

[00:53:53] is a sect of Christianity and offshoot that acknowledges this issue that I had

[00:53:59] with with the whole concept because I believe that you know you pretty much he must have set it up purposefully knowing

[00:54:06] that for his own purposes say he has these numinous purposes that we can comprehend but he knew that it was going

[00:54:13] to happen so you know he must have somewhat somehow intended it and that is

[00:54:19] what they believe in a in a way in you know in so many words and uh maybe maybe I’ll look that

[00:54:26] up and be able to actually quote it to you next time because it’s it’s a very very Frank acknowledgement of that

[00:54:33] concept which I’m sure you disagree with for for you know your purposes but still

[00:54:38] I thought it was interesting well uh no actually many Christian denominations hold that Viewpoint so it’s not and I

[00:54:44] don’t consider Mormonism a denomination of Christianity but well that’s why I said like offshoot sure sure but many

[00:54:51] denominations actually hold the view that they actually shared with you that’s actually a very common belief is

[00:54:56] that this was all planned according to God’s will according you know before

[00:55:03] creation even started this was all set up so um that bears you know begs the

[00:55:09] question uh could Adam and Eve have done otherwise um exactly but there’s a but

[00:55:15] but here’s the problem there’s a very very big problem here and that problem is is that in order for love to exist

[00:55:22] Choice has to exist and go the Bible says God is love right it it is

[00:55:28] literally the highest virtue is love but Liberty is this is the other side of the

[00:55:34] coin you can’t have love without Liberty you you literally can’t because

[00:55:40] there’s no way to have a person has to CH be able to not choose you in order

[00:55:46] for them to choose you and them choosing you is what is Love And So you you’re

[00:55:53] undermining the entire God’s entire existence by saying that

[00:56:00] they had no ability to choose that’s a gigantic problem um so

[00:56:06] theologically I I I would have to say that’s untenable um I’m not surprised

[00:56:11] that mormans believe that because they have numerous uh things in their theology that are that are flawed but

[00:56:19] but many Christians believe that same thing and I just think it hasn’t been thought through well most people just

[00:56:26] side not to think about it at all and just move on and go hey look I can’t understand it I can’t figure it out and

[00:56:33] so what I’m going to do is I’m just going to trust that God knows what he’s doing and I’m just going to move forward and do my best to love people and love

[00:56:39] others and and let God figure out the details which you know that’s okay it’s

[00:56:45] not it’s not the worst thing EXA exactly exactly so you know but I I do like the

[00:56:51] way that you you know you take it a few steps further you go as far as you can you know using your brain and thinking

[00:56:58] critically to at least be able to have something to say for for these problematic questions which is why I

[00:57:04] love talking to you you know yeah well I appreciate it and I I love our conversations um I think uh I appreciate

[00:57:12] your willingness to discuss tough issues a lot of people aren’t willing to discuss them so it’s great and um and uh

[00:57:19] it’s hard for me not to to open the doors here to this next discussion but

[00:57:24] um it’s so good I just wan to save it for the next time we get together because uh anybody who listens to it is

[00:57:31] gonna have their whole View upended and we’ll go whoa whoa whoa whoa okay and it

[00:57:38] starts to really change everything about the way you think so no get me excited first learned when I first learned about

[00:57:45] it honestly it was because the question you’re addressing was one of my questions

[00:57:52] because I question and it was one of my biggest questions and it was very frustrating to me I didn’t like the

[00:57:57] answers I was getting and I kept digging and I kept digging and finally I found an answer that I I’m still astounded

[00:58:06] that it’s not more well known among uh among um theologians and

[00:58:13] philosophers and others uh I feel like if people knew this it would drop a lot

[00:58:20] of the piece pieces of the puzzle into place and a lot of people would would uh

[00:58:25] even atheist and agnostics people who because I think that’s one of the things that turns off a lot of people is uh

[00:58:34] thank you for sending me to hell when you knew I would you predestined me to go there you know that’s a very

[00:58:40] frustrating um uh perspective to hear and yet it is one of the perspectives that people toss out there all the time

[00:58:47] so any but uh yeah we’re going to set this up pretty soon you know I got I got

[00:58:54] the studio ready to go now it’s we’re ready to rock over here I’m excited I’m

[00:58:59] excited it’ll be fun so yeah uh we’re about out of time though um Stan so uh

[00:59:05] that was a lot of fun and uh I I feel like there’s a lot more to discuss about the devil but oh yeah you can save it

[00:59:10] for another time and uh I’d love to hear some of the stories that people have shared with you too um because uh the

[00:59:16] ones you think are are actually might might have some credibility or at least that the people were were not just

[00:59:22] fishing for uh you know recognition

[00:59:28] quite a bit of that I’ll I’ll look up some of the stories and kind of like summarize them in my head so or

[00:59:33] summarize them on my notes so that when we talk about it I can like give you a little Cliffs notes version of some of

[00:59:39] them yeah CU there’s a couple that I could think of right now that came up but yeah hey thanks for

[00:59:47] having me man I appreciate it absolutely Stan and for those of you listening um keep an eye out um after scan and I set

[00:59:54] this up I’ll put it on the website so uh if you are interested in that whole big discussion about for knowledge and and

[01:00:00] predestination and all those things because those are very very tough and interesting questions um you can you can

[01:00:07] join us on his podcast trq and on YouTube and uh we’ll check Stan gray

[01:00:13] Stan gray with an e and trq sorry yep no no problem Stan gray trq and um in the

[01:00:20] meantime if you’re looking for more answers um you can go to my website educate forlife.org I’ve got a whole

[01:00:26] curriculum up there that’s meant to help answer all the or as many as I can answer of the tough questions that are

[01:00:32] out there because there are a lot so uh God bless you guys uh thanks for being with us and Stan I hope you have a

[01:00:39] fantastic night and that your family is doing well you as well my friend I’ll see you soon when you need tires or

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