[00:00:00] Thanks for being here this evening. My name is Kevin Conover. I’m your host on Educate for Life. Uh our podcast is all

[00:00:05] over the world on Spotify. It’s also on YouTube. You can check it out. And uh I

[00:00:10] just want to thank you for being here this evening. Uh this week, past week obviously has been uh just incredibly uh

[00:00:17] dramatic and sad. And I’m sure that everybody listening has had their emotions all over the place up and down

[00:00:24] with the passing of Charlie Kirk and um just everything that’s been happening. It’s uh incredible uh what’s been going

[00:00:31] on and it’s not always easy to know how to feel. Um we feel incredible loss at

[00:00:38] the same time. Um we see people coming to know Jesus. I I’ve seen uh atheists

[00:00:44] on social media saying that they have all of a sudden this huge desire to go to church and people who are picking up

[00:00:50] the scriptures for the first time. And I even saw some guy said, “It’s been 30 years since I picked up my Bible, and

[00:00:56] I’m I’m now picking up my Bible.” And um incredible baptisms taking place. Um

[00:01:02] right down here in my hometown in San Diego, um there have been numerous vigils and just uh people praying and

[00:01:09] worshiping and asking God to intervene in our country over this horrible tragedy. And um you know the scriptures

[00:01:17] talk about this um about how sometimes uh tragedies like this what Joseph talks

[00:01:23] about it where he says uh you know what you intended for evil God turned for

[00:01:29] good and the saving of many lives. And so I just want to encourage you that if you’re out there and you’re struggling

[00:01:34] right now um and you feel in a fog or lost or just

[00:01:40] uh incredible uh broken an incredible broken heart um that’s normal and it’s

[00:01:48] not unusual we’re grieving over um really what I believe the Holy Spirit is grieving over is something that God did

[00:01:55] not intend which is death. Um, death, uh, the Bible calls it the final enemy.

[00:02:01] Um, and death is evil because it’s a separating, um, it’s a separation, whether that’s a separation of a loved

[00:02:07] one, whe whether that’s a separation from God, whatever it is. And God through Jesus Christ is what brings us

[00:02:14] back together. He’s what unites us and restores what was separated. And so if

[00:02:20] you’re hurting and you don’t know Christ, I just really encourage you to reach out to Jesus.

[00:02:25] And just um say, “God, I I want you. I want help.” And then go to a good bibleelving church. Connect with

[00:02:31] Christians who love Jesus and begin the healing process. And then um ask God, “What’s next? Lord,

[00:02:39] what do you have for me next that how can I engage uh the world um for you?

[00:02:45] How can I love people better? How can I love you better? How can I be a light to a world that is in desperate need of

[00:02:52] hope and encouragement? And so, um, I just wanted to start off talking about

[00:02:57] that. Um, we have a an incredible guest, uh, here with us this evening. His name

[00:03:03] is Lumen Wing. He has a masters in the in theological ethics. He has a PhD in

[00:03:08] biochemistry from the University of Aberdine, uh, Scotland. He’s had 25 years of experience in the

[00:03:14] biioharmaceutical industry. He’s currently a pharmaceutical consultant and leads an interdisciplinary team of

[00:03:20] scientists in developing cell and gene therapies. He’s also an adjunct professor of bioeththics and cell

[00:03:25] biology and he also serves as a chaplain with the San Diego Sheriff’s Department Crime Lab. Uh Lou, thank you so much for

[00:03:33] taking the time to be with us this evening. Absolutely. I’m very happy to be here. Thank you, Charlie.

[00:03:38] Yeah. And so, uh Lou, recently uh I’m I’m Kevin though, not Charlie.

[00:03:44] Yeah, I know. I just was just airlocked. Sorry. I mean, seriously, that’s like a topic of constant conversations.

[00:03:51] No, you honestly I I haven’t been able to stop thinking about him all week long. So, it’s crazy. It’s He’s in my

[00:03:57] thoughts every every uh 10 seconds. Yeah. Wow. But um um Jean, you I’m sorry, Lou, you

[00:04:03] recently wrote the book Jeans of Eden. Yeah. Um it just came out this month. Uh and

[00:04:11] uh tell us a little bit about that. It’s it’s your area of expertise. Yeah. Um tell us about Genes of Eden. It’s a

[00:04:17] very unusual book. Yeah. Thanks. Um you know, one of the one of the factors is it’s kind of like one of those windows, a very rare window

[00:04:25] when you can actually merge science and theology mainly because it’s dealing with this emerging science that comes

[00:04:32] out of genetics. It’s called epigenetics. And it’s really looking at gene function and how environment shapes

[00:04:38] our genes. Literally that. and how this inheritance of imprinted genes can have

[00:04:45] a major impact not only generational but we can tie it to a number of theological doctrines. And one of which this book

[00:04:53] ties it into is original sin. And it really explores the details of the

[00:05:00] Augustine original sin and looks at his writings and his more unusual writings

[00:05:06] in light of how he describes. So this propagation of sin of Adam talked about

[00:05:12] in the book of Romans 5:12 with the idea that we’re in Adam and sort of exploring

[00:05:19] that in even greater detail and seeing how he explains it. He is a natural philosopher. He would have been a

[00:05:25] scientist at this time. He probably in our day would have been a biologist. And his idea was to look at propagation and

[00:05:33] and understanding how this could possibly happen. He even asks the question, if anyone could explain even

[00:05:40] in the slightest how this could be possible, it ties it together. Well, that’s what epigenetics does. It gives

[00:05:46] us a handle, a tool to explore it. Not only that, but look at specific genes

[00:05:52] and how they are really activated and demonstrate such a mirror not only of

[00:05:58] addictive behavior, but how it gives evidence for ever since we’re born, we’re always moving away from God. And

[00:06:05] that the whole characteristic of distorted desires and all that he describes theologically is evidence of

[00:06:12] the original sin gives a platform for us to really explore yes addictive behavior

[00:06:18] but some of the other social issues that I’m exploring at this time in the second volume I’m doing on other social issues

[00:06:24] that also give evidence for how not only genes that can be yes the expression can

[00:06:30] be altered but how they’re changeable and that’s the point is that genetics is

[00:06:35] not a deterministic factor exclusively. As a matter of fact, that’s the structural nature of DNA. The functional

[00:06:43] is a changeable process that is altered by diet, by exercise, and specifically

[00:06:50] what does sanctification actually look like? Yes, spiritually, but what’s the

[00:06:56] physical manifestation of that? So I I explore that and look at tying the sin

[00:07:02] factor into how the soul that is tainted with sin. And so I yes I look at another

[00:07:09] framework of the soul and looking at yes how the soul could not necess

[00:07:18] that the ancient studies of traducianism if if you’re familiar with that it’s

[00:07:23] like looking at the sort of material nature of the soul and how that could also be evidenced in this epigenetic

[00:07:31] phenomena that can not only have the sin factor but also has all the other

[00:07:38] components that we would see generationally. So there’s been challenges, yes, with the theology teams

[00:07:44] and all the different variations thereof, but the science is irrefutable. So you have a bedrock of science as a

[00:07:50] tool and you’re now you’re sort of unpackaging some of these the theologies from Augustine from Aquinas from even up

[00:07:57] to Kurigard looking at this idea of if this sin is the sin nature and if the

[00:08:04] sin is malleable then clearly other doctrines play a role in it such as forgiveness and understanding how

[00:08:11] forgiveness not only cleanses our conscience but also can have a manifestation in our bodies as well. So

[00:08:18] I I explored all that in this book. That’s that’s a that’s a lot. Okay.

[00:08:24] I um but it’s phenomenal because um you know this is an a very interesting subject um because a lot of people

[00:08:31] struggle with sin even after they’re well we all do to one extent or another struggle with sin after you get become a

[00:08:38] Christian and you wonder why am I not a better person? Why am I not why why do I still deal with the same

[00:08:46] sin that I dealt with before I accepted Christ? And I I wanted to um quote uh the Apostle Paul in Romans

[00:08:53] chapter 7. Yeah. Verse 21, where he says, “So I find this law at work. Although I want to do good, evil is

[00:08:58] right there with me. For in my inner being, I delight in God’s law. But I see another work law at work in me waging

[00:09:03] war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me.” Yeah. What a wretched man I am. Who will

[00:09:10] rescue me from this body that is subject to death? Thanks be to God who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord. And it

[00:09:16] sounds like that’s a lot of what you’re wrestling with in this book. Exactly. Precisely. And the Romans 7

[00:09:22] factor is always coupled with the Romans 8 factor because we’re in this duality

[00:09:27] of exactly seven but also with eight. And so the book describes the cycle of

[00:09:33] addiction and what happens with the triggers and what happens with up to the you know falling into these habits that

[00:09:40] are driving us away from the Lord because we have developed this learning mechanism in which this satisfies this

[00:09:48] need that is always looking for something this this within this dopamine serotonin

[00:09:54] objective. And so that the triggering factors all the way up to the relapsing and the resilience and then trigger back

[00:10:01] again that cycle once it is met with the cycle that I describe in more detail in

[00:10:07] the book of the the cycle of redemption. And I take second Peter

[00:10:12] 1:es 5 and 6. And I look at that as far as how Peter on his last months of being

[00:10:19] alive, the last airplane instructions as it will to explain how these things

[00:10:26] would keep us from never falling or staying in a habit of not staying in

[00:10:31] seven, but how do we actually experience eight on a more consistent basis? In

[00:10:36] other words, how does this progressive sanctification actually work? So when it’s telling us to add to your faith, it

[00:10:43] says not only add to your faith virtue but virtue knowledge. So this knowledge that develops with who we are and

[00:10:50] understanding what true knowledge is has to have before this virtue concept or virtue meaning moral excellence or more

[00:10:56] directly discernment or revelation. So true epistemology

[00:11:02] has this concept of not just reason but it’s coupled with revelation. The two of

[00:11:08] them are the full knowledge of a believer. And once we understand that and engage in this discernment factor by

[00:11:16] studying God’s word, by meditating on it, it it gives us a greater confidence

[00:11:21] to make greater decisions. It intensifies our knowledge and and it doesn’t let our knowledge get so out of

[00:11:27] control that we become arrogant or pride as part as knowledge often puffeth up. It’s balanced with that revelation. And

[00:11:34] that’s why self-control follows that. And that self-control that’s this sort of cycle begins with being perseverance.

[00:11:41] And perseverance is followed by an attitude of godliness and brotherly kindness and ultimately love. And that

[00:11:47] love promotes faith. And so this cycle of redemption is an answer to the cycle

[00:11:53] of addiction. And it what’s keeps this balance going of the Romans 7 Romans 8

[00:11:59] world because in essence we are yes our sin nature is going to be in existence

[00:12:05] while we’re on this planet and yes our bodies will die. However, this is the

[00:12:10] beautiful thing about 2 Corinthians chapter 3 and 4 when it talks about the

[00:12:16] idea that we’re although we’re in this kind of gray dimly scene even in 1 Corinthians 13, we’re being changed and

[00:12:23] we’re being transformed into this newer image. And the transformation process is

[00:12:29] evidenced by changes that we see specifically in this gene. This really interesting gene that’s explored by a

[00:12:35] number of even in gene therapy in a in a group that’s working here in San Diego of trying to you know modify this gene

[00:12:41] so we can get more of this brain derived neurotropic factor. It’s called BDNF.

[00:12:47] And this gene is interestingly tuned to environment to the extent where it’s

[00:12:52] part of what’s involved in learning. We call it neuroplasticity and the synaptic strengthening and how

[00:12:59] our neurons are actually influenced by not only just this environment but so

[00:13:06] many other factors specifically yes exercise but one of the most powerful ones is when we stop and we reskill and

[00:13:13] know that he’s God that there’s evidence that this gene is activated by times of

[00:13:19] prayer by times of being in the word by that’s concentration there’s biological

[00:13:25] outcome of this that changes our learning mechanisms. It’s changing our habits and we start to develop a greater

[00:13:32] understanding and maturity in the Lord. It’s it’s it’s an actual fact that we’re

[00:13:38] seeing here. So it’s this is these are actual uh physiological

[00:13:43] changes on a genetic level that you’re saying that relate to what the Bible teaches us about um going from being

[00:13:50] completely dominated by what the Bible calls our flesh, being born into sin. Yeah.

[00:13:55] And then and then progressively as we know Christ, you’re saying that literally on a genetic level,

[00:14:02] you’re seeing changes. When did you first notice this in your own research in your own study that this was

[00:14:07] something that was happening? Well, I I’ve done I’ve been in the world of cell and gene therapies for many

[00:14:13] years. And one of the factors that happens when we do either gene editing or a gene replacement or any of these

[00:14:19] other manipulations of the human genome, we find that there’s often offtarget, we

[00:14:25] call it offtarget toxicity. When other genes or this gene that we’re trying to place into a new version of the gene

[00:14:32] into the genome to get more of the protein that’s made from this gene, we

[00:14:37] find that it’s either not functioning properly, it gets turned off, or it affects other genes around it. And

[00:14:44] that’s what we refer to as toxicity in the cell and gene therapy world. Well, often those changes are due to

[00:14:52] epigenetic changes. Meaning that that gene that we want in so bad to you know

[00:14:57] have it just plug plug and play kind of thing it can get silenced or it can get

[00:15:03] altered in such a way because all of the genes of your body are essentially tuned. As a matter of fact, there’s a

[00:15:09] biotech company called Tune Therapeutics where there’s ways that you can chemically alter the tuning mechanism of

[00:15:17] how a gene expresses a protein in such a way that you can actually increase its

[00:15:22] concentration and or have a modified version of the proteins if you can imagine. So this the science is an

[00:15:30] artistry literally of how this the fascinating part of the DNA molecule 6.4

[00:15:37] 4 billion base pairs. These these CG A, you know, base pairs that we find all

[00:15:42] along this chain that is inside of every single one of your cells. 6.4 billion of

[00:15:48] them. And if you can imagine, less than 1% of all of those genes is are or all

[00:15:54] that DNA is genes. That means there’s 20,000 genes on this chain of 6.4

[00:16:01] billion. Meaning that’s a very well that’s like I say less than 1%. Yeah,

[00:16:07] that’s that why how did God design this? They called all the rest of it junk DNA. Well, interestingly now that we know all

[00:16:14] those repeat sequences, all of those things that we consider junk were are in fact part and parcel of how all of the

[00:16:22] genes function and it’s all driven by these epigenetic mechanisms. So we have

[00:16:27] epigenetics that produces even RNAs that are made they don’t produce proteins

[00:16:33] they actually silence the DNA they’re non-oding RNAs and they’re everywhere in

[00:16:40] the genome because every single one of your cells has there there’s 210

[00:16:46] different tissues and every one of those cells in your body has the exact same

[00:16:51] sequence. So that means a liver cell, a kidney cell, a brain and neuron, all of

[00:16:57] them same sequence. The difference between a kidney cell and a liver cell and so on are these epigenetic changes

[00:17:05] that silence portions of the gene and only express certain parts of them. So

[00:17:11] that will only have the characteristics of a neuron. So this this is a

[00:17:17] foundation little process that’s happened since the the time the DNA sequence was actually first or the DNA

[00:17:24] molecule was actually first discovered in the 1950s. There was an individual by the name of Conrad Wington when the

[00:17:30] scientific community community kind of buried this guy because all of his discussions seemed to be pro really

[00:17:38] giving more credence instead of Darwinian. It was really a Lamarian idea meaning that Lamar had the whole picture

[00:17:45] of the phenotype in terms of you know the giraffe necks expanding its neck because the environment was so harsh and

[00:17:52] only the you know the high um palm trees or whatever have the fruit. So it it you

[00:17:57] know it developed this you know change in its neck. The neck stayed the same but it’s kept it was able to you know

[00:18:05] extend it and so on. All these variations and so on did not so just to clarify that that’s really

[00:18:10] interesting is that what he was arguing was that the environment

[00:18:15] uh was was creating actually new genes. But what what you’re saying is that no,

[00:18:23] everything that was necessary was already there. Exactly. Because certain things were turned off

[00:18:29] and certain things were turned on. Exactly. And they were fine-tuned to the extent where there there could be these

[00:18:35] modifications. Well, as the science goes, you know, as we’re seeing now,

[00:18:41] none, that technically isn’t possible without having some sort of mutations to

[00:18:46] facilitate that process. And we always have to go back to this rationale for the you know the sort of

[00:18:52] neodyarwinianism idea that it requires all these mutations in order to get speciation and there’s always going to

[00:18:59] be this ultimate challenge of being able to explain that because mutations are only ever deletterious. There’s never

[00:19:06] been a positive mutation and certainly ones that don’t enable a species to

[00:19:12] advance in its phenotype. And because that’s always been a pitfall for for

[00:19:17] evolutionary theory that that’s an argument that can go on forever because

[00:19:22] there’s always trying to explain, you know, bacteria and how they adapt to environments. They stay bacteria.

[00:19:28] They’re not getting mutations. They’re adapting to it based on epigenetic changes. So this is why, you know, you

[00:19:36] can march into that that cold space. If the person is genuinely resistant to

[00:19:41] God, they will come up with every macroeolutionary schematic as possible. And instead of

[00:19:48] dealing with that, I acknowledge in this book that you know what you guys, we’re not going to go there any longer. It’s

[00:19:55] not produced any fruit. If there’s a willingness and as this book describes

[00:20:00] this concept of consonants that I disagree with that, I know you disagree with what I’m saying. What we’re wanting

[00:20:07] to do is just let’s look at the science of epigenetics and recognize that our

[00:20:13] genome is very dynamic based on the genes how they’re expressed not just the

[00:20:19] structure. Meaning that a gene like the brain derived neurotropic factor can

[00:20:25] have a vietiety of ways. It’s expressed based on our learning environment and

[00:20:31] how we’re learning. For example, all of us essentially have addictive behavior and that could be a good direction

[00:20:38] called a habit or a bad direction called an addiction to something that will harm you. And in both cases, the essence of

[00:20:47] the addiction like process is that it’s not the substance. This is the key to

[00:20:54] addiction that it’s not the substance that is the driver. It’s the anticipation.

[00:20:59] It’s the dopamine surge of the substance that it triggers the highest level of

[00:21:06] dopamine before this substance is ever taken. And what is that saying is that

[00:21:11] the presence of God or and essentially just like it is the presence of whatever

[00:21:18] substance someone is anticipating, they’re going after a dopamine surge.

[00:21:24] That’s why cocaine is one of the highest of all addictions because it literally causes a flood hose of dopamine to surge

[00:21:32] the brain. The idea is the dopamine is also a part of this anticipatory action

[00:21:39] of when we’re participating like in worship for example genuine sincere worship is anticipating the presence of

[00:21:46] God and with the satiation the satisfaction of his presence

[00:21:51] emerges the satiation i.e. So does the serotonin. It matches it.

[00:21:57] Just what happens when I hate to call it the same thing, but it’s a very similar to what happens with like heroin. You

[00:22:02] get this balance of dopamine and serotonin. Although it’s a falsified action, it’s very temporary and it’s

[00:22:09] very damaging to your body. It satisfies that process without any type of drug

[00:22:14] whatsoever. No xenobiotics, nothing. This endogenous process happens in the

[00:22:20] presence of God, anticipating his presence and the satisfi satisfi I’m

[00:22:26] satisfied. My soul is satisfied and the serotonin balances that out. This is how

[00:22:32] addictive behavior actually works. But how a spiritual life works and how this

[00:22:37] cycle of redemption is always satisfied with love and love promotes the faith

[00:22:42] because the trust factor emerges and a a holy life is always moving in this

[00:22:49] sector of this focus of without people even realizing it. But I put the actual

[00:22:54] labels on it because so did Peter do and this last epistle. this idea of how it

[00:22:59] works to be in the presence of God in a consistent ongoing basis and and and

[00:23:06] those labels help facilitate that process. And how you’ll never fall. Why

[00:23:11] would Peter say that as the first statement of his last testament before he died was to say, “Here’s how to never

[00:23:19] fall. We’re in a culture just like he was in Rome 67 AD. It was as bad and

[00:23:25] deplorable as imaginable. There was no way people could meet together. Here’s a lot of isolated, terrified Christians.

[00:23:32] And here they’re giving these key factors on how to stay in constant

[00:23:37] fellowship with God and stay close to him before most of them are murdered by

[00:23:43] Sea or Nero. So, we have to stay very tuned to that process because this is

[00:23:50] the times we’re living in right now. We have to remember that that shot that came at to Charlie, yes, it killed a

[00:23:56] man, but what it really was was a starting gun. It was an activation of the body of Christ for us to start

[00:24:02] running our race and not waiting for the gun to go off cuz it already went off. That was the classic beginning. And

[00:24:09] that’s why I really believe that this death was not in vain. It’s just like what happened with the first martyr,

[00:24:14] Steven. You know, it activated the body of Christ. And this is what’s happening right now. Do you realize that 18,000

[00:24:22] new applications went into the um the the organization that Charlie started? I

[00:24:29] mean that just happened. It’s actually up to 38,000 now. Oh my goodness. Wow. See, this is what’s

[00:24:36] happening. And this is why I believe this book, I’m just saying, is coming at such an opportune time because it

[00:24:42] stabilizes our theology. It gets us out of this post-enlightenment,

[00:24:47] postmodern mindset and gets us into the true, you know, honest science in terms

[00:24:54] of it being a tool and not the driver of our theology. It is a participant in the

[00:25:00] theology. It is part and parcel of what it means to genuinely be holy and and it

[00:25:06] points to that. And I’m saying this as a scientist. I’m seeing this. So, I’m so This is so interesting

[00:25:12] because um uh for those of you listening, my guest uh this evening is uh Dr. Lou Wing and

[00:25:18] uh he recently wrote a book called The Genes of Eden. And it’s just a really really interesting book that has to do

[00:25:24] to to do with the science of uh sanctification and um the process of

[00:25:30] moving beyond uh you know your your uh sinful addictions and these sorts of

[00:25:35] things. And um I just wanted to read this verse because it pertains to what you were just saying there.

[00:25:41] Yeah. John 12. Yeah. 23-2. Jesus,

[00:25:46] the hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. Truly, truly I tell you, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a seed,

[00:25:53] but if it dies, it bears much fruit. And then he goes on to say, “Whoever loves his life life will lose it, but whoever

[00:26:00] hates his life in this world will keep it from eternal life.” And I I what you were saying is really interesting about

[00:26:06] um that drugs are a counterfeit um uh

[00:26:12] a count a counterfeit dopamine high for what God actually intended a good

[00:26:18] dopamine high. Yeah. The process of what you’re talking about which is involved in worship. It’s

[00:26:23] involved in these relationships. And like you said, it’s this it’s this um

[00:26:29] you said it’s a it’s a starting gun almost in a sense that God is calling us all to holiness, which

[00:26:36] which is really um struck me about Charlie Kirk is that unlike many people, he kept um

[00:26:44] emphasizing the need to pursue holiness. Um whether that was, you know, getting

[00:26:51] pornography out of your life, whether that was uh focusing on family, whether that was um calling men to a higher

[00:26:59] standard of how they treat their wife or their their girlfriend or whoever it

[00:27:04] might be. Um all of these things were a call to a much higher standard, which is

[00:27:10] what the word of God is calling us to. Um, and so, um, you know, where it says,

[00:27:15] “Confess your sins to one another that you may be healed.” Uh, can you talk a little bit more about what you’re

[00:27:21] seeing, um, happening from an epigenetics perspective as it pertains to us becoming more

[00:27:28] sanctified and more holy. You said this is a starting point. Can you expand on that thought? What do you

[00:27:34] Absolutely. Absolutely. So, tying that to some of the key genes that are involved with our behavior. One of

[00:27:39] which, as I mentioned a moment ago, the brain derived neurotropic factor that there are studies already ongoing and

[00:27:45] that’s really a really fascinating one on dealing with stresses and how those stresses can potentiate it you know this

[00:27:53] this activation of this gene in an abnormal way or shutting it down and and

[00:27:59] stresses have a lot to do with shutting down key genes. one of another one that’s part of this um here’s a biology

[00:28:06] moment but it’s this called in the the corticotropen receptor right so it’s

[00:28:11] this when stress goes very high we get a lot of cortisol and the cortisol can if

[00:28:17] it’s not disappeared quickly enough it can become toxic and it can cause a lot of physiological harm and it can cause

[00:28:25] actually cause serious diseases however there is a receptor on kidney cells that

[00:28:30] actually mop it up and take it away so that we can have that restoration and sort of you know take care of this

[00:28:37] chronic or acute stress. Well, if that receptor that mops it up is broken or

[00:28:42] epigenetically altered due to the high level of stress.

[00:28:48] So stress can cause and high stress like post-traumatic stress disorder which is a classic example. you can shut that off

[00:28:55] meaning that that receptor is no longer available and PTSD and so on can have a

[00:29:02] massive effect on memory recall and and displaced memories. So this neurobiology

[00:29:10] within that specific receptor and also with the brain derived neurotropic factor has these ways of being malleable

[00:29:18] not only to this environment but it’s interesting how that when one prays and

[00:29:24] when we pray literally or we’re in fellowship just like you said a moment ago that connection in with the oxytocin

[00:29:31] that’s expressed and so on it not only brings together but it causes a

[00:29:36] satisfaction That’s the bottom line. A satisfied soul, that’s perfect peace

[00:29:41] because our minds are genuinely stayed on him. So Isaiah 26:3 becomes a real

[00:29:47] biological spiritual verse because training our minds to keep them cap our

[00:29:54] thoughts captive. 2 Corinthians 10:5 tells us that when our our greatest

[00:29:59] battle is in our brains and it’s when we can bring those thoughts captive to the obedience of Christ and recognize that

[00:30:06] the weapons of the of warfare aren’t carnal but mighty through God the strongholds come down when I bring my

[00:30:13] thoughts captive when I trust that God is in control and I let his presence dominate that moment the stresses are

[00:30:21] literally alleviated Jesus promises to give us peace when we come to him. You

[00:30:26] know, Matthew 11 28 alone is one of the most powerful pharmaceuticals you could

[00:30:33] ever take. When Jesus says, “Come to me all you who labor and are heavy laden and I’ll give you rest.

[00:30:39] Take my yoke upon you. Learn from me for I am my yoke right light easy burden.”

[00:30:46] Right? So, he eases our burden. So, you know, this whole concept of coming to

[00:30:51] him really resets a number of our stress related systems in ways that many drugs

[00:30:58] that are on the market right now are trying to do or bypass the concept that we have all this ability endogenously.

[00:31:06] We don’t need to be taking pharmaceuticals for every other ailment when if my diet is corrected, yes. If

[00:31:12] I’m exercising, yes. But the key is if I’m genuinely having a sincere walk with

[00:31:18] Jesus and understanding that I’m with him always and I can practice his presence always. You know it with the

[00:31:25] guy brother Lawrence back in the early thousands right early years ago we wrote

[00:31:31] that book was a dishwasher and his and a thing and he wrote this diary of what is it like to genuinely practice God’s

[00:31:37] presence all day and something as menial as what he was doing. He was writing in

[00:31:42] this journal about how the satisfaction was such a driver of that perfect peace

[00:31:48] because the settleness to a soul even when things come up and we’re going to always have stresses but we also have a

[00:31:55] way of it being buffered out if you will by the fact that the presence of God the

[00:32:00] anticipation of his presence is of greater depth than any pharmaceutical

[00:32:06] can seem to manufacture. And just on that note, just remember that anytime you take a drug orally specifically,

[00:32:12] it’s going to go through your mouth. It first goes through your liver before it gets into your bloodstream. And it goes

[00:32:18] through your liver and it gets chewed up. And very often it gets not only chewed up, but a very small percentage

[00:32:25] actually gets into your blood that actually gets to its target where it’s going to work on that cell to do

[00:32:31] whatever it’s going to do, whether it’s going to fix a receptor or not. But because there’s such a massive amount

[00:32:37] lost in the liver, it’s a reminder that even taking a pill, it’s not an endall.

[00:32:43] It’s going to always require taking the more. It’s always going to take, you know, mediating that. I’m not saying to

[00:32:49] stop taking your drugs. I am saying though, balance the drug taking with the presence of God. And watch what happens

[00:32:55] when we have a healthy amount of the dopamine. Yes. A healthy amount of the BDNF. Those are ways we can actually

[00:33:03] generate a mind that can be stayed on the Lord regardless of our circumstances. That that’s why Jesus is

[00:33:12] for everyone regardless of our circumstances. So, you know, yeah, it’s it’s just phenomenal to me. I

[00:33:19] I was always astonished. I I went to UCSD and I got my bachelor’s in psychology and I was always amazed at

[00:33:25] how um what they would be talking about that they had discovered or that they were studying or that they were figuring out.

[00:33:32] Um I’d look at the scriptures and I’d say, well, if you had read the Bible, you would already know this. And it’s so

[00:33:39] it’s so interesting what you’re saying that, hey, you’re taking this pill to try to change your um you know, your

[00:33:46] your whatever your genetics or your epigenetics in some way. Yeah. Um because you’re trying to get the

[00:33:51] peace that you need, but if you take the time to be with Jesus, he actually does it the way it’s

[00:33:58] supposed to be done is what you’re saying. Exactly. Precisely. So whether it it it

[00:34:03] just like it’s a whole mind, body, soul, and spirit. And that’s why 1 Thessalonians 5:23 is

[00:34:09] such a powerful statement. You know, now may the Lord Jesus himself sanctify you completely, mind, body, soul, and

[00:34:15] spirit. Faithful is he who’s called you who will also do it. And this whole idea that he can do it. Our call is to be

[00:34:23] mindful of our nutrition, exercise, how we’re walking with the Lord. What kind of community are we in? All of those

[00:34:30] factors that make us aware that we’re on a planet, we have a body, we have a

[00:34:35] mind, a soul, and and owning them. and not giving up on your body but just focusing only on spirit is missing out

[00:34:42] on what God’s objective is for us in in our entirety our entire being. So this

[00:34:49] is a call that’s why holiness is just is beyond yes it’s spiritual first

[00:34:55] absolutely but just remember that cycle of redemption is that the faith begins

[00:35:00] and then the revelation and then the reason followed by self-control perseverance right and all of those

[00:35:06] factors that sort of dominate the discussion that put our knowledge in one place but and it’s preceded by this

[00:35:14] revelatory uncction and or discern ernment to know and understand what God’s speaking to

[00:35:21] us. That’s why it’s so important to have that ongoing relationship with him. Yeah. And and you know, a lot of people

[00:35:27] um have this idea that you know, the physical body is bad um and that the

[00:35:34] spiritual body is all they need to be concerned about. That’s right. Exactly. But the reality is is that um we are an

[00:35:41] integrated being. Um you know it we we are not meant to exist um apart from the body. In fact, we’re

[00:35:49] going to have redeemed bodies. There you go. In heaven. We’re not It’s not as if we’re going to be disembodied spirits.

[00:35:54] We’re going to actually be spirits that still have bodies. Exactly. So I’m understanding that there

[00:36:00] is a integrated relationship between what you’re doing physically

[00:36:05] and how it affects your spirit and what’s happening spiritually and in your soul and how it affects your body is

[00:36:11] important to to actually pursue holiness to actually

[00:36:16] exactly overcome addictions to overcome the flesh as the Bible describes and to

[00:36:22] exactly to um uh ultimately pursue sanctification is what you’re

[00:36:29] saying. There you go. Precisely. And and and the essence of it is is that we are not our

[00:36:35] own. We’re bought with a price and God’s has our pink slip. He knows exactly our

[00:36:42] down sitting or uprising. We’ve given him full residence of our body. He’s given us options on how we take care of

[00:36:48] it. And you know, there’s consequences as well as benefits. And so we living in

[00:36:54] that concept of being mindful of those practices. When we blow it, we are quick

[00:37:00] to confess. And the whole concept of confessing that agreement with God is a cleansing factor. That’s why, you know,

[00:37:07] I can get off and I would love to at some time. But I just you know understanding how the the blood of Jesus

[00:37:13] actually the concept of that from the holiness perspective how that’s integrated into all this because you

[00:37:18] know we so often forget the meaning the depth of meaning of the sort of this

[00:37:24] hematological nature of who we are as it’s emphasized primarily in our bodies

[00:37:29] because you know we’re fully oxygenated by our blood. So that that idea

[00:37:34] spiritually is an important factor that cleanses our conscience. You know the idea of the sacrifice of Jesus extends

[00:37:41] beyond our discussion right now but it goes into you know the layers in which

[00:37:47] we understand him and become attuned to him. So we have that anticipatory nature

[00:37:54] and that anticipatory nature is a holy nature. So living in holiness literally

[00:38:01] is living with the anticipation constantly. It’s always a desire. It’s

[00:38:06] always and it’s always met. It’s always and it’s always met. That’s always what

[00:38:12] it is. That’s what it means to pray without ceasing. You know, when you have this constant in your existence, it’s it

[00:38:18] changes the dynamic of who you are. That’s the beautiful thing about it. So

[00:38:24] when we get overwhelmed, when our hearts get fredded, we go back and and the quicker we go back is the evidence that

[00:38:31] we’re meditating on that scripture, that we have a better understanding, and we continue to progress forward. You know,

[00:38:38] that’s the whole idea is that progressive sanctification factor. We’ve already been positionally perfected and

[00:38:45] we’re living that out literally in this sort of process of progressing in our

[00:38:51] sanctification with the Lord. That’s why interestingly addictive behavior being

[00:38:56] this good and bad process the habitual gone arai i.e this moving away from God

[00:39:04] is our human sinful nature from Adam. So as an Adam we have inherited we’re

[00:39:12] culpable. Yes. And so we have to recognize that from the very set. And we’re always tempted to go our own way,

[00:39:20] drift away from God. And the Holy Spirit’s really good at prompting us, recognizing that we’re his. So um you

[00:39:28] know, um what you’re saying is so important because you know Paul’s um

[00:39:33] somewhat rhetorical question where he says, “Why do I do what I don’t want to do?”

[00:39:39] Yeah. Um that’s a question that haunts a lot of people. And looking at all these people that are either newly saved

[00:39:46] because of what happened to Charlie Kirk. They’re going to be going to new Bible studies, they’re all these young

[00:39:52] believers, or you have many Christians who have um never taken the time to

[00:39:58] really understand what’s going on. Um and it’s so important because a

[00:40:03] person can become hopeless if they if they don’t understand what’s going on. They they go,

[00:40:10] you know what, I guess I’m just not a good enough person. I have a I teach 12th graders and one of the common

[00:40:16] questions I get I’ll ask them so do you think you’re going to go to heaven when you die and one of the these are and

[00:40:21] these are kids that have been in many of them in Christian school for a very long time from Christian families

[00:40:26] and they’ll still ask the question I’m just not sure if I’m good enough and I say well don’t you understand

[00:40:32] you’re saved by grace through faith and they say yeah I do but I still feel like

[00:40:37] I shouldn’t be constantly going back to these things that I do. And so they feel shame and

[00:40:44] guilt and many people do because they don’t understand. And we live in a world that’s more that’s pulling for those

[00:40:51] cheap dopamine um fixes. It’s so available through phones,

[00:40:57] through access to legalized drugs. You bet. So many other things. And so for a lot

[00:41:02] of for for a while I was praying to God saying, “God, how do I help these kids

[00:41:09] understand um and grow and overcome these things?” Because we live in a

[00:41:14] world that’s so difficult. Yeah. And what you’re saying here is uh really important for everyone to know because

[00:41:22] without that knowledge, you can leave yourself in a hopeless place. What would you say Lou to the to the person that’s

[00:41:29] newly saved as they’re starting off and you know a lot of people are like I’m gonna white knuckle it through here and I’m gonna right they become moralists

[00:41:36] and um how would you how would you encourage that person? What would you say to these young people that are

[00:41:43] struggling with overcoming addictive Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Oh gosh. That’s is

[00:41:49] that’s such a great question and Kevin I can’t encourage them enough to Yes. First and foremost, yes, if you don’t

[00:41:55] have a Bible, that’s the first thing. Second thing is read it as a love letter and read it slowly. At the same time,

[00:42:04] talking to God, asking Jesus specifically to open your eyes so that

[00:42:10] you understand it. So ask him to open your eyes because the Holy Spirit, believe it or not, he’s your teacher.

[00:42:16] and spending time doing that. At the same time, also takes carve out of your schedule, time to meet with other

[00:42:23] believers and people, especially in a church that has the Bible at the forefront that they’re actually studying

[00:42:29] the Bible and they want to go through the whole Bible. That’s an important factor as well. So staying connected

[00:42:36] that way is the way you alleviate the tension and you recognize the symptoms

[00:42:42] and you start to see that that nature can be changed and you’re willing and

[00:42:48] able to let God actually give you the strength, the courage to stop and trust

[00:42:56] him. That’s the bottom line right there. to trust him and recognize that he

[00:43:01] speaks to you, that his bi the word of God actually does speak to you and your

[00:43:08] friends that are genuinely wanting to walk closer to the Lord love you and you’re going to learn how to love ways

[00:43:16] that you’ve never loved before. It’s a different type of love. It’s a love not for yourself. It’s a

[00:43:22] love for others. And it’s a focus on others because God longs to satisfy us

[00:43:28] when we’re concerned and and primarily with understanding that others need the

[00:43:34] same thing we do. So going to that that perspective is so essential right now.

[00:43:40] I love that. I love that. And I think the trust is just critical. Um I think a

[00:43:45] lot of times we wonder if God is going to pull through for us. And I I think of

[00:43:50] a scripture where the father is struggling and Jesus says to him, “All things are possible to those who

[00:43:57] believe.” And he says, “God, help me with my unbelief.” Yes. And and what’s critical about this,

[00:44:02] which you’ve hit on here multiple times, is that belief. Belief is the quote spiritual medicine.

[00:44:11] Yes. That you need. Absolutely. Instead of the pill that you’re taking, hoping that the pill

[00:44:18] changes your physiology. Yes. The belief is the medicine that changes

[00:44:24] you physiologically. That’s what’s stunning to me is the way that that a spiritual belief

[00:44:32] heals you physiologically. It’s absolutely shows the integration of

[00:44:37] God’s creation with the spiritual world that is also his creation.

[00:44:43] Absolutely. Absolutely. God reveals himself exactly that way with his creation and then his word and then this

[00:44:51] your conscience. Psalm 19 explains that. If you get a chance to read the Psalm

[00:44:56] number 19, you’ll see it’s all displayed that way. And it’s understanding that

[00:45:02] God has enlightened you. You are not the same. You’re a new creature literally in

[00:45:08] Christ Jesus. And that means spiritually and also physically your brain is going

[00:45:15] to have a different freeway. It’s going to start learning new things. You’re going to get this concept of

[00:45:21] neuroplasticity. Meaning that neurons are going to start adjusting to a new

[00:45:27] nature. That’s what’s so powerful about this. You got to remember that our brains are constantly seeking new

[00:45:34] information. They’re always when we get bored, we start wanting to get onto our

[00:45:40] phones. We got to be somehow we our brain is hungry for information because

[00:45:45] it’s always learning. There’s always neural connections. There’s this that’s why this concept of synaptic

[00:45:52] strengthening is how neurons connect to one another. And that place where neurons connect is that region called

[00:45:59] the syninnapse or synaptic clft where these molecules are secreted into that

[00:46:05] little cliff and unlock doors to the next one. And all those doors are very unique for each one of these trillions

[00:46:12] of different neurons that you have in your body. We can’t possibly run into our bodies and start opening and closing

[00:46:18] them. But what we can do is we can stop, take a deep breath and think and trust

[00:46:25] that as you look at that verse and understanding even John 3:16,

[00:46:32] for God and just go through the verse one word at a time, God so loved the

[00:46:40] world. And look, and if it doesn’t make sense to you, look the word up. There’s

[00:46:45] great references. You can use a blue letter Bible. You can use any of these little apps. But going to the next part

[00:46:51] of the verse that he gave his only begott his only son. God gave this to

[00:46:58] you. He initiated a relationship with you. He called you. You didn’t call him.

[00:47:03] Believe it or not, he drew you to himself. He’s making you his. God is

[00:47:10] making you his. If you think about that, that should give you extraordinary extraordinary dopamine surges. It should

[00:47:18] go beyond what cocaine tries to manufacture in your head. It’s this joy unspeakable. That’s exactly how Peter

[00:47:25] describes it. Joy unspeakable. What does that mean? It’s this awe. The fear of

[00:47:31] God is literally described as an aruck. You sit out in the desert sometime, look up at the sky, and you look at this

[00:47:37] trillions of stars. It’s you’re aed by it. But let me also encourage you. If someone were to take your brain out and

[00:47:44] open it up and pull out every single one of your neurons, you would have the equivalent number of neurons to the

[00:47:51] number of stars in the Milky Way galaxy. Think about that for a moment. When you

[00:47:56] look in the sky and you see all of these stars, you realize my brain contains the

[00:48:03] same number. I mean, you are fearfully wonderfully made. It’s the most awesome

[00:48:12] thing to be in the hands of a living God. It’s an awesome thing to even think

[00:48:17] of yourself as being owned by him. That you were once a prisoner of an enemy to

[00:48:22] your soul and you’ve been set free. I mean, that in of itself is the essence

[00:48:28] of this anticipatory holiness. You don’t have to wear robes to be holy. You have to have burnt incense and run. Being

[00:48:35] holy is recognizing his presence constantly. That’s what the point is is

[00:48:41] that God designed holiness to be a part of your conscience. And your conscience

[00:48:46] is driving your body, mind, soul, and spirit. That’s why you know the old

[00:48:51] words about your oh love him in your heart or love them. Yeah. Your whole heart factor is your conscience. So, I

[00:48:59] mean that’s Sorry, but the sermon there, but I’m just saying that’s what it is. So,

[00:49:05] that’s beautiful. Um, well, Lou, I just want to thank you so much for taking the

[00:49:10] time. Sure. To do this interview. Uh, it’s so powerful what you’re sharing with us and

[00:49:16] and uh for those of you listening, u Dr. Lou Wing and he is a geneticist, studied

[00:49:23] um genetics for a very long time, just came out with the book Genes of Eden. I highly recommend you check it. You can

[00:49:28] you can get it off Amazon. Check it out. And um more importantly than anything,

[00:49:34] um connect with Jesus, connect with God. Um the whole country, the whole world is

[00:49:39] really going through a pretty intense time right now. Yes. It feels like things are heating up and

[00:49:46] I think there’s no better time uh to turn your life over to Jesus Christ because Oh, yeah. He wants nothing but the best for you.

[00:49:52] he loves you and um walking with him, there’s nothing better you could possibly do because it doesn’t just stop

[00:49:58] with this life. It actually continues on into eternity. And um Charlie Kirk is

[00:50:03] not dead, he’s alive. Jesus Christ said, uh he who believes in me, though he die,

[00:50:09] he will live. And uh that’s true for you and me as well as Charlie and everybody else

[00:50:16] that’s gone before us. So uh give your life to Jesus. Thanks, Lou. Really appreciate you. All right,

[00:50:22] guys. Thank you, man. Thanks, Kevin. All righty. God bless you guys. Have a great night. Yep. All right. You, too. How can you live in San Diego and

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