God’s designed revealed in the Heavens with Dr. Eric Hedin

[00:00:00] thanks for being here today my name is Kevin Conover and I’m your host on educate for Life radio we’re broadcasting down here in Southern

[00:00:06] California all over San Diego County and a little Beyond we’re on K pra 1210 a.m.

[00:00:12] and also on FM 106.1 in North County and um we have a really special guest today

[00:00:19] uh he’s come out with a new book recently called cancel canceled science what some atheists don’t want you to see

[00:00:26] um his name is Eric Haden and he earned his doct in experimental plasma physics

[00:00:31] from the University of Washington he’s conducted post-doctoral research at the Royal Institute of Technology in

[00:00:37] Stockholm Sweden he’s taught physics and astronomy at Taylor University Ball State University in Indiana and at Biola

[00:00:43] University in Southern California at Ball State his research focused on computational Nano electronics and

[00:00:50] higher dimensional physics that sounds pretty intimidating but I’m sure he’ll break that down for us and um his BSU

[00:00:58] course the boundaries of science attract Ed National media attention resulting in

[00:01:03] Dr Haden’s recent book cancelled science what some atheists don’t want you to see highlighting scientific evidence

[00:01:09] pointing to design and he is um associated with The Discovery Institute if you don’t know who they are they are

[00:01:16] fantastic and I highly recommend you check out Evolution news.org it is an

[00:01:21] incredible resource I’ve been following the Discovery Institute for a very long time and I love what they’re doing and

[00:01:28] uh the impact that they’ve made is in the in the country in the world is really undeniable uh Dr Haden thanks so

[00:01:34] much for being here with us today well thank you Kevin I really appreciate the invitation to be able to dialogue with

[00:01:40] you today yeah absolutely um you know we I want to hop right in here because you

[00:01:46] know a lot of people don’t know about the controversy that surrounds somebody who is at a

[00:01:51] university um and is a Bible believing Christian uh is involved in science and

[00:01:59] how sometimes you have to tread a very um thin line or a a very careful path

[00:02:06] when you have a strong trust in the Bible and in the Lord Jesus Christ but

[00:02:11] you’re also speaking science and sometimes students can ask you questions in class they can bring up topics um

[00:02:18] where you’re just thinking to yourself well I really want to tell you what I really think but I’m also a little

[00:02:23] nervous because uh sometimes there’s backlash when any type of talk about God

[00:02:29] as designer um pops up in the classroom can you just share with us what the controversy was and how it started um

[00:02:37] regarding which ended up in your book um canceled science sure um

[00:02:44] so I taught at Ball State University for about 15 years and uh in the department

[00:02:50] of physics and astronomy and um I had been teaching a lot of astronomy courses to for for uh

[00:02:59] non-science Majors mostly you know trying to uh just um make it interesting

[00:03:04] and um part of that was to get to know the students so I would uh query them

[00:03:11] ask them to write down on a piece of paper uh things like uh what questions

[00:03:16] would they most like answered and uh and to make it even more interesting you know not just about astronomy you know

[00:03:23] anything if you could have any question answered what would it be and I was really surprised to find out that

[00:03:30] the majority um the kind of the category that was most popular of answer had to

[00:03:37] do with what I would call metaphysical questions um questions having to do with

[00:03:43] things like is there a god or is there life after death or how can I be sure

[00:03:50] that I go to heaven when I die and um so this was at a secular University and so

[00:03:58] knowing that uh students had this sort of Interest I designed this course the boundaries of Science and um it was a

[00:04:06] discussion-based course um with really a science curriculum it was designed

[00:04:13] around learning astronomy and cosmology and all all of that so it actually gave

[00:04:18] the students um General Science credit if they took it but um it was offered

[00:04:23] within the Honors College at Ball State which really required all of the courses

[00:04:30] in the Honors College to be discussion based and not just you know a talking head throwing content at the students

[00:04:36] that they were supposed to memorize and so you know they were supposed to engage in the conversation a bit and um anyway

[00:04:43] well I taught that course for about six years it was going well it was my favorite course and students uh filled

[00:04:49] it up whenever it was offered and um then one day I got a email from an

[00:04:58] atheist uh evolutionary biologist at a different University in a different

[00:05:04] state who had somehow gotten a hold of the syllabus for the course and don’t

[00:05:09] know how that happened um but um he complained that I was pushing religion

[00:05:17] in a science course and the reason was that I discussed it even in the syllabus

[00:05:22] that we were going to be looking at the implications of scientific theories and discussing the big questions and

[00:05:28] considering whether humans have significance and and this sort of thing

[00:05:33] um well anyway I thought it would go away because you know I’ve been teaching this course for years and it was very

[00:05:39] popular and it had been reviewed by the Deans and the associate Deans and uh you

[00:05:44] know it was um kind of no secret what I was teaching but uh the university

[00:05:50] decided to um investigate me anyway it

[00:05:55] led to months of um kind of being

[00:06:00] put under the microscope of scrutiny by uh from the Provost on down and um at

[00:06:08] the University and they eventually decided to cancel the course because I

[00:06:13] think they just wanted the controversy to go away it had spilled over into the national media

[00:06:19] um really was sort of that summer uh of 2013 news across the country um and you

[00:06:28] know it had to do with questions of free speech of academic freedom and uh

[00:06:34] freedom of religion and they were saying I was violating the First Amendment um

[00:06:40] but I I thought that that was supposed to uphold that sort of freedom but anyway the uh the interesting thing was

[00:06:48] that through that time I I got connected with The Discovery Institute um you mentioned them earlier um a group of

[00:06:57] scientists who have conviction that the universe is designed and shows evidence

[00:07:03] of design an intelligent design and um so

[00:07:09] that’s been a good thing I still write articles regularly for them and they are the ones that published my book

[00:07:16] cancelled science um um about uh three almost four years ago

[00:07:23] now but um yeah so a lot of good has come out of that controversy uh

[00:07:30] I thank God that uh the University was uh fair enough to me they didn’t uh

[00:07:37] cancel my job just the course and um I eventually got tenure at Ball State and

[00:07:43] promoted there before I left to take a professor position at Biola University

[00:07:49] in Southern California so um that’s that’s just a a little overview of it and I thought I

[00:07:56] might mention one thing that’s interesting before I taught at Ball State I Tau at a Christian University in

[00:08:01] Indiana for five years Taylor University in the physics department and I had um a

[00:08:09] lot of occasions to talk about God and Science and faith and Science and that sort of thing you know and at a

[00:08:15] Christian University you can speak about your faith and in fact you’re encouraged

[00:08:20] to and I knew that when I came to Ball State that that wasn’t uh really allowed

[00:08:26] it wasn’t proper um in a secular University and so I thought

[00:08:32] well I could surely at least talk about science because I thought that would be

[00:08:37] common ground uh it’s it’s it’s sort of neutral everybody studies science and we

[00:08:43] could talk about the implications of science but it’s ironic that it was the implications of science that caused the

[00:08:52] atheists to complain that I was teaching religion and so that to me just really

[00:08:58] testifies that scientific evidence in fact points

[00:09:04] to God as Creator so that’s what I wanted to ask you about I think that’s so um amazing

[00:09:10] you know and I’ve heard this uh consistently um somebody I think it was

[00:09:16] Dr James tour um somebody there’s I’m sure there’s more than one person that has made this

[00:09:22] kind of a statement but it was um a little bit a little bit of science might make a person lean towards atheism or

[00:09:28] agnosticism but a lot of science um drags you back to God to the inevitable conclusion that you can’t uh this can’t

[00:09:35] all exist without a a designer uh and I thought that was a really interesting quote um you know as you grew up and you

[00:09:43] decided that you were going to head in this Direction with your career physics and astronomy and these sorts of things

[00:09:50] um was there a point in your life uh was it when you were younger or when you were older where you looked at what you

[00:09:56] were examining and thought to yourself you know uh this is definitely evidence

[00:10:02] for God was there a point that you remember in your mind where that happened for

[00:10:08] you well I think fairly early on um I

[00:10:13] became aware that uh various lines of evidence within science were supportive

[00:10:20] of biblical faith and uh God is Creator um at least when I was in um College

[00:10:29] gradu uate school um I began to find books that I read and that were written by

[00:10:36] scientists who were Believers and that uh kind of pointed it out and so I I

[00:10:42] wouldn’t say that uh the scientific evidence was what brought me to Faith I

[00:10:47] I had a faith uh prior to that thank God for Christian upbringing in my family

[00:10:54] but um it was very exciting to me as someone who was always in love with

[00:11:00] science to discover that science itself also uh backed up and

[00:11:06] substantiated my faith in in fact in in many ways that uh were kind of

[00:11:12] additional to what you might typically learn in church um which is brings me to a sort

[00:11:20] of amusing uh little story of vignette um after one of my astronomy courses at

[00:11:25] Ball State there was a student in the class who was a a Believer and um we had

[00:11:33] met before he knew I was a Believer and he asked me after class Dr Haden isn’t

[00:11:39] it difficult for you um to be a physicist and a Christian at the same

[00:11:46] time and uh I I laughed just uh I really answered him by

[00:11:54] saying no actually I think it’s easier for me because I as a physicists have

[00:12:00] kind of access to knowledge that is actually supportive of my faith I have

[00:12:07] more reasons to believe than the average uh Layman who perhaps doesn’t have a

[00:12:14] scientific background and uh that’s that’s been the case um really all throughout my career

[00:12:22] I found more and more evidence for God that um is brought about by science

[00:12:29] and so I I want to just encourage uh listeners with this thought that really

[00:12:35] science is the discovery of what God has made and of course in that light it’s

[00:12:42] always going to point back to the Creator awesome that’s so amazing I

[00:12:47] thought um you know one of the things and I can’t remember if this was um Stephen Meyer who talked about this or

[00:12:53] not but um Anthony flew when he eventually decided that God must exist

[00:13:00] he admitted he said the integrated complexity of the world and the universe physics and chemistry and everything he

[00:13:07] said uh there’s just no way to escape uh the fact that there has to be a designer

[00:13:13] in all this and I thought that was amazing um that he would and he even

[00:13:18] said that prior when he was younger um that the science had not developed to

[00:13:24] the extent it has now where it can you can see that complexity between all the different laws of physics and between uh

[00:13:32] uh chemistry and everything else and he said now though that we’ve made so much many advances the argument is even

[00:13:39] stronger um because of the science um and he he left atheism and became a

[00:13:45] theist um what are your what are your thoughts on that well it’s to uh his

[00:13:51] credit you know Anthony flew a long time atheist but he at least had this I guess

[00:13:59] almost like a life motto to follow the evidence wherever it leads and um so when confronted with the

[00:14:07] growing amount of evidence like you mentioned Kevin from science that pointed towards design towards a creator

[00:14:14] that couldn’t be explained by naturalism uh Anthony flu changed his

[00:14:20] mind after many decades of atheism and supporting that Viewpoint he concluded

[00:14:26] that really the evidence points now towards a Creator and uh I think that

[00:14:31] that’s that’s very powerful and certainly in my experience um and I’ve heard other

[00:14:38] scientists say this as well that the amount of evidence the number of lines

[00:14:45] of evidence that are pointing towards God as a Creator is increasing all the time and do you have something in your

[00:14:53] own experience and your own studies um that is some of your favorite uh uh you

[00:15:00] know facts about science and creation that for you are some of the most

[00:15:05] compelling evidences for the reality of God well yes

[00:15:12] um I I am somewhat of a generalist in my studies so I haven’t just focused on one

[00:15:20] narrow topic of research and I’ve done a lot of reading rather broadly um

[00:15:25] including in other fields besides physics and uh did a lot of reading in information Theory and molecular

[00:15:32] biology and uh that you know it sounds like a mouthful but honestly it’s simply

[00:15:39] saying that within living systems even looking at a single cell

[00:15:45] there is a type of complexity uh known as spe specified complexity or specific

[00:15:52] complexity that is something that exists of course it’s there you can look at it

[00:15:59] and see it but it is not explainable by natural

[00:16:04] processes um because of what we know from physics uh physics tells us that natural

[00:16:11] processes will tend to degrade the information content of a system with the

[00:16:17] passage of time it it it’s obvious to us everything we look at it

[00:16:24] it’s kind of um decomposing you know if you had a newspaper paper you could read

[00:16:30] it in the morning and then if you were walking to work and you dropped it in a mud puddle and you said oh forget it and

[00:16:35] you just left it there uh you know within a few days it’s going to decompose to a pile of Pulp uh the

[00:16:43] information that you could read earlier is now gone um an animal that dies um it

[00:16:52] decomposes from a living system that’s complex functional um to it decomposes

[00:16:58] to a pile of dirt and it never goes the other way around that’s just a result of

[00:17:03] the laws of physics and so that to me tells us that when we see the vast amount of information and complexity

[00:17:09] within living things which we do as a result of science we see that uh that

[00:17:15] tells me that there must be something other than a natural origin for that and

[00:17:21] to me that’s very powerful uh evidence and I know it’s one of the lines of evidence also that

[00:17:27] Anthony flu uh referred to when he uh converted from atheism to

[00:17:33] theism yeah I think that’s incredible too and again for those of you listening uh my guest is Dr Haden and um he’s a

[00:17:41] very well- credentialed scientist and also just Professor uh and who was

[00:17:47] basically shut down uh because of atheist complaints about a discussion

[00:17:52] between um where what are the implications of what we’re discovering in science and uh as as far as our

[00:17:59] Origins purpose meaning these sorts of things it’s interesting uh Dr Haden when I was at my University UCSD I had a

[00:18:06] professor who was teaching a course it was a elective course and I selected it because I was I thought oh this looks

[00:18:12] really interesting I didn’t expect to even see it offered at UCSD but it was on faith and Science and um my professor

[00:18:20] was an amazing Professor who we sounds very similar to the course that you had developed um and there were so many

[00:18:27] Fantastic discussions took place in the class and it was just a huge blessing to me um and then uh Michael beeh he showed

[00:18:34] up at UCSD and and gave a a a talk on his new book at the time which dates me

[00:18:41] but this was back in 1998 Darwin’s black box and all the science faculty went and and heard him because it was so I don’t

[00:18:48] know he was a lightning rod uh for attention at that time um but you know you said it I I was watching the little

[00:18:54] video on the Discovery institute’s website on um what you went through and everything and it says in there that

[00:19:01] there were even atheist students that were following you around campus because they found it so interesting um can you

[00:19:07] share with us a little bit about that wh why were the atheist students so interested in listening and following

[00:19:13] you and and having even more discussions about that well this this particular

[00:19:18] example um occurred in one of the classes I was teaching of this

[00:19:23] boundaries of science course um fairly early on and I think

[00:19:29] what generated their interest was that it was a course where they were allowed

[00:19:35] to ask questions and to um bring up alternative viewpoints um and within the

[00:19:42] course you know student could answer student and um yet I tried to ground it

[00:19:49] in the realities of science so that uh the discussion would stay rooted in reality and of you know the best that we

[00:19:56] knew from science and not just get uh kind of out there and be too

[00:20:03] speculative so yeah I can remember we had the the course in a building on sort of the north side of campus and then my

[00:20:10] office in the physics department was on the south side of campus and I I had to make the walk back and they would take

[00:20:17] the time to walk with me and we would just continue topics of discussion that

[00:20:22] we were uh maybe bringing up in the classroom and uh I really valued that

[00:20:29] and um you know one thing I I love about teaching is interacting with students

[00:20:35] when they have questions um I think being willing to ask questions um you

[00:20:42] know let’s say even as a Believer it’s it’s okay to ask questions uh search for

[00:20:49] the truth and and in a sense have confidence that God is going to lead you

[00:20:55] and um so when even atheist students are asking questions I feel like God is

[00:21:00] somehow leading the conversation because um that’s the first step towards coming

[00:21:06] to Faith in my mind yeah and I think that’s why there’s so much

[00:21:11] um there’s so much uh push back against that is because it’s true is because if

[00:21:17] these conversations are allowed to be had um then people are going to come to the conclusion that God is a reality and

[00:21:24] for this reason whether you want to say it’s spiritual or whatever the case um there is definitely uh something going

[00:21:31] on behind the scenes that that information is not allowed it’s it’s so strange to me that somebody like Jerry coin or somebody else would be um so

[00:21:38] concerned they’re in another state they’re at another University and they’re going to take the time to try to

[00:21:44] stop these discussions from taking place that’s really um strange to me and I I

[00:21:52] you know one of the first uh pieces of um uh one of the works that The

[00:21:57] Discovery Institute did when they when they brought out the movie expelled where it said no intelligence allowed

[00:22:03] and I thought uh this is unbelievable that in America people would not be allowed to have these these discussions

[00:22:09] on a University campus where you’re supposed to be having um you know deep

[00:22:15] philosophical as well as scientific discussions and and and students learning to think for themselves and yet

[00:22:21] here we are in an environment where they’re they’re literally trying to uh

[00:22:26] it it reminds me of you know a movie where they’re just trying to stop um people from thinking it’s kind of

[00:22:32] mind-boggling to me um that that’s even considered and and that that the

[00:22:38] administration would cave to that is also bothersome to me um that that is

[00:22:43] taking place do you see that changing um anytime soon I feel like The Discovery Institute and people like yourself have

[00:22:50] made such a big impact um do you feel like um things are going in the in a better direction or do you think that

[00:22:56] this is continuing to um you know try to try to fight for having these

[00:23:03] discussions well I I do believe that there has been some progress made in terms of um uh maybe a greater openness

[00:23:12] to among scientists to consider evidence for for design and um basically the

[00:23:20] evidence is speaking for itself and even um say biologists who aren’t Believers

[00:23:29] are recognizing that there’s something more than just a mechanistic uh

[00:23:36] naturalism behind all this and uh so I think that’s the first step because

[00:23:42] really that’s what we’ve been saying all along is that you you can’t explain this uh with naturalism now not everybody is

[00:23:50] willing to immediately confess God as the Creator but at least they’re they’re

[00:23:57] recognizing that there’s a reality that seems to transcend uh traditional you

[00:24:02] might say Newtonian Newtonian determinism which is you know just the idea that one particle bumps into

[00:24:11] another particle and it moves it and and that’s all determined by the laws of physics and that’s all there is that

[00:24:17] there seems to be something else going on and um so you know as a scientist

[00:24:24] I’ve considered that reality for a long time and it really does seem to me that

[00:24:29] I would venture to suggest that it the spirit the spirit of God is actually

[00:24:35] that something else that brings together all of the molecules and keeps them going in a

[00:24:44] way that sustains life within the cell I don’t know if we’ll ever be able to

[00:24:50] um measure that in a scientific way but I think we can measure this we can

[00:24:56] measure that what’s going on is something beyond the laws of physics

[00:25:03] and uh you know so there’s always going to probably be room for people to interpret what is the something else the

[00:25:10] something more yeah so you know I’ve heard people say this and I’m just curious to hear

[00:25:15] your thoughts on this but um you know a common uh response is well that’s a god

[00:25:21] of the gaps argument you don’t understand how something works science will eventually figure it out and so

[00:25:27] you’re this is an argument from ignorance um that you’re making and um

[00:25:33] I’m going to wait until science figures it out in the meantime I’m going to uh withhold judgment or not try to make um

[00:25:43] conclusions and so I’m I’m just going to continue in my agnosticism and I’m

[00:25:48] comfortable with sitting in that um and my not knowing I’ve heard this pretty

[00:25:54] commonly um how how would you respond to that well it is a very common um kind of

[00:26:01] a dismissal of say the design argument it’s like well we we’ll just uh wait and

[00:26:08] figure it out uh or you’re saying God did it because we don’t know how else it

[00:26:14] could have happened but it’s exactly not that uh the evidence and the argument

[00:26:20] for intelligent design is not an argument from ignorance it’s not saying

[00:26:26] we don’t know how this could have happened um and

[00:26:32] so we’ll just say God did it it’s an argument from knowledge we would not

[00:26:39] have evidence for design if we didn’t know our science to the degree that we

[00:26:46] do and it’s our knowledge of science that points us to design and and here is

[00:26:54] how it goes and it’s the reason I labeled my course the boundaries of science one thing I’ve learned as a

[00:27:00] physicist is that there are limits to what nature can do you know there are only four

[00:27:08] fundamental forces of nature you know gravity electric force

[00:27:14] and so on but the nuclear forces and they basically are pushes and pulls and

[00:27:21] so we we understand what they do and we know that what exists

[00:27:29] cannot be explained by what nature can do it’s not we don’t know how nature could have

[00:27:36] done it we know that nature could not have done it it’s like if if you you know see of a rock um

[00:27:47] flying up into the air you don’t say well that could be a natural phenomenon

[00:27:54] we just don’t know enough about gravity yet to be able to rule the possibility

[00:27:59] out that this was a natural occurrence of this rock flying up into the air and

[00:28:05] and that’s that’s an argument from ignorance because the knowledge we have

[00:28:11] says we know everything about gravity to the point that we can say it’s not going

[00:28:17] to cause a rock to fly up into the air and so this must be a nonnatural

[00:28:24] occurrence you know or you know something else other than gravity is going on um you know somebody threw it

[00:28:30] up into the air or there was a a spout of of pressure from some under you know

[00:28:36] there’s something else so we because we know how things work we know that there must be design it’s the same with life

[00:28:44] biologists love to say well it’s so very complicated um you know I’m talking

[00:28:49] about biologists who are promoting Evolution and and so we just have to

[00:28:55] keep studying and eventually we’ll see how Evol can do this it’s like no we don’t need to do that we don’t we already know

[00:29:03] enough about how uh the physics of interactions between atoms Works to know

[00:29:08] that they will not systematically arrange themselves in more and more complex specific

[00:29:15] functional Arrangements the opposite will happen given the passage of time and so the fact that we see life

[00:29:22] composed of these complex Arrangements of molecules means that God must have done it it’s not god of the gaps of

[00:29:30] knowledge it’s a god of uh you know it’s an answer where we are saying God is the

[00:29:36] cause because we know it could not have happened naturally and if it can’t

[00:29:42] naturally it must be Supernatural that is a fantastic explanation I love that um and I think

[00:29:49] um that is incredibly compelling and I think that’s something people should memorize because honestly uh that comes

[00:29:57] up so so often with the people I frequently have atheists on my show because I just love to have these

[00:30:02] discussions and uh that explanation right there is so fantastic um to be able to respond uh

[00:30:10] because you know a lot of times people don’t think through their their reasoning and they’re coming to bad

[00:30:15] conclusions because the reasoning is bad and so uh people end up making bad you

[00:30:21] know conclusions about reality about the meaning of life about God because they haven’t taken the time to think these

[00:30:27] things through and and talk to people that have really thought them through and so um I really appreciate that uh

[00:30:33] another thing I wanted to ask you about uh Dr Haden is that

[00:30:39] um you recently uh did some work on um

[00:30:44] or have designed a I believe it’s a even a a study a lessons on the Star of

[00:30:50] Bethlehem um and I thought that was really amazing too I think that’s actually the first article I ever read

[00:30:56] that you uh wrote about was people have been trying to figure out forever what the Star of Bethlehem is and um just for

[00:31:04] those listening can you just share a little bit about the study that you have that talks about that and U where that

[00:31:11] came from obviously you you study the stars and so um can you share with us about that well yes I do study Stars I

[00:31:19] know an awful lot about uh just um stellar nucleosynthesis and Stellar life

[00:31:25] cycles and all the things you would teach in an astronomy course but um that doesn’t necessarily

[00:31:31] help explain um The Star of Bethlehem it it maybe provides a few possibilities

[00:31:37] for what this remarkable thing was that uh you know

[00:31:42] it’s called the star in the scriptures and it led these uh wise men um on a

[00:31:51] long journey probably a very costly Journey both in time and and you know

[00:31:57] money and and safety issues and everything to leave their Homeland in the East and travel to Jerusalem and

[00:32:04] eventually to find uh uh Jesus in Bethlehem so it was a

[00:32:10] dramatic appearance in the heavens and what could it have been and um you know

[00:32:16] i’ over the years have been familiar with various uh ideas you know perhaps a Nova you know a star that temporarily

[00:32:25] suddenly gets brighter um and uh maybe

[00:32:30] it was a conjunction of uh planets and maybe it was even a comet um but I

[00:32:38] didn’t really know and and there are some that uh seem sort of compelling uh however when I lived in

[00:32:46] Southern California um the church I went to a large church at that

[00:32:52] time asked me to do a talk at their um Christmas season sort of Outreach event

[00:32:59] on the Star of Bethlehem and um so I thought well that’s that’s fine and I went and looked

[00:33:06] up some books at the bolo library on this to see you know just get more

[00:33:12] background and this one caught my eye called the Great Christ Comet by uh a

[00:33:20] theologian named Colin nichel and um what was different about

[00:33:25] his approach was was that he invested an

[00:33:31] awful lot of time and effort learning astronomy to complement his sort of

[00:33:37] theological and historical studies of events surrounding the Star of Bethlehem

[00:33:43] and I really appreciated that as uh as someone who’s also studied astronomy so I read the book and um it essentially

[00:33:51] the article you referred to I summarized his Viewpoint and um you know made the case

[00:33:58] that it seemed very compelling that this Christ Comet um could have explained all

[00:34:04] of the appearances of the Star of Bethlehem you know the original one that led the

[00:34:11] Magi on their trip uh up until the very final appearance when it was they were

[00:34:17] just going from Jerusalem to Bethlehem a short journey and the star appeared and led them to the specific house the tail

[00:34:24] of the Comet uh if it was aligned vertically could have have um been standing over a

[00:34:30] specific point on the horizon even from their approach um as they looked at this

[00:34:38] you know Comet with a tail again oriented vertically in the sky could have pointed out a

[00:34:45] specific uh home or house for them to go to and there you know as the story tells

[00:34:51] us in the Bible they they found Mary and Jesus and um so I just found that to be

[00:34:58] compelling uh you know there of all the Articles I’ve written for evolution news which is over 60 articles for this

[00:35:05] Discovery Institute website that one has generated the most commentary and

[00:35:11] feedback and questions and um it’s um I think because a lot of people are

[00:35:19] also thinking of what it could be and not everyone agrees and have some have their own favorite theories and uh so I

[00:35:26] can’t say that uh exactly this was the explanation but it uh fits

[00:35:33] the all the The Arc of the storyline in the Bible and it fits the

[00:35:40] astronomy um I guess realities better than any other Theory I have read and if

[00:35:46] somebody wants to if if some one of our listeners wants to uh take a look at that is that something um where could

[00:35:53] they go to see the study that you put together uh the the article I I wrote um

[00:36:01] you can go to the evolution news.org you know that’s the name of The

[00:36:08] Discovery Institute website and for some of our listeners it may be a turn off that it has the word evolution in it but

[00:36:14] just be assured it’s not promoting Evolution it’s actually critiquing

[00:36:19] it and uh so all of the Articles written there are supportive of God’s design of

[00:36:27] uh things in nature and um so there’s a little tab there about you

[00:36:34] know the different writers I’m featured you you can see my picture and name and if you just click on that um you can

[00:36:41] scroll through all the articles I wrote and find that one or you can just type in Christmas star or something like that

[00:36:47] and it’ll pop right up that’s fantastic um so along those same lines um you were

[00:36:55] saying um you have some slides that uh demonstrate some of the evidences for the truth of uh God from what you’re

[00:37:03] looking at and and I believe is that the fine tuning argument um that you’re refer yes I I I discussed some of the

[00:37:11] fine-tuning uh within the physical Universe leading up to you know the I

[00:37:16] guess planet Earth and and how it can support life and so I do have a few slides on that yeah if we if you have

[00:37:23] time I’d love to be able to see a little bit of that I do um I can um Jason can

[00:37:29] you let him share that yep you’re all set to share let me know if you have any questions okay so

[00:37:38] um this is my screen here and if it

[00:37:47] um if I can leave it in this format or or go to presentation format whatever you think is best whatever you this is

[00:37:54] fine or the other way is fine too if you want to go into presentation uh that’ll make people be able to see it a little

[00:37:59] bit better if you guys are if you’re listening on podcast um he’s going to show us some of his slides you can also

[00:38:06] see this on YouTube so that’ll help you to be able to see what uh Dr Haden is talking about here well I think for now

[00:38:13] I’ll just keep it at this and um

[00:38:18] so we’ll talk through some of the arguments for design or in other words

[00:38:25] the evidence for God as creator um we mentioned life a little bit and the

[00:38:31] complexity of life as evidence for God as Creator and here I want to take a um

[00:38:36] a much more large scale View and look at the entire universe and um discuss ways

[00:38:43] that astronomers over the last uh decades have discovered that the universe

[00:38:49] itself uh gives us evidence for design and a lot of that has to do with what we

[00:38:54] call fine-tuning uh of fine tuning you know we understand that if

[00:39:01] you uh you know play an instrument it it needs to be tuned or an orchestra all

[00:39:06] the instruments need to be tuned um a very precisely engineered

[00:39:13] um watch or an automobile needs to be finally tuned to get everything to work

[00:39:20] smoothly to a given goal the universe seems to be of this nature of of a an

[00:39:29] orchestrated Cosmos rather than a chaotic random um just so happened to

[00:39:37] come out this way sort of uh universe and it turns out that um this

[00:39:44] is a pretty powerful argument for the existence of God because all astronomers physicists agree

[00:39:53] that the physical constants of the universe are finally tuned to a life to exist so that’s not really an

[00:40:01] issue some might I guess uh Dicker over

[00:40:06] the interpretation of the fine tuning and some would say well look at it this way

[00:40:14] if the universe wasn’t finally tuned for life like if it didn’t have the parameters that would allow life to

[00:40:21] exist then we wouldn’t be here and no one would be talking about it so of course the universe is finally tuned for

[00:40:27] life no big deal uh nothing to see here begging that’s begging the question yeah

[00:40:33] so what I point out is as shown in this slide um

[00:40:41] the physical constants are so sharply tuned that it gets our

[00:40:50] attention it’s something unusual it is of course true that the constants of the

[00:40:56] universe need to be of a range or within a range that allows life to exist or else you know you and I

[00:41:02] wouldn’t be here but they don’t have to be so knife Ed sharply tuned and in this

[00:41:09] next slide I I ask is anthropic fine tuning logically necessary which is sometimes

[00:41:16] what the critics are saying meaning they kind of undercut the argument in the weight of the argument by saying well

[00:41:25] anthropic meaning human Focus fine tuning is of course necessary for us to

[00:41:30] even exist but that’s not true um fine tuning

[00:41:36] is not necessary just tuning you you have to have the laws of nature in some

[00:41:44] range that would allow life to exist you know you have to be able to have the

[00:41:49] universe be such that carbon exists you you have to have uh the laws of physics

[00:41:55] be such that um liquid water can exist and and so on but

[00:42:02] to get our attention I think God set it up so that

[00:42:07] the degree of fine-tuning is extremely sharp so this kind of a red Spike here

[00:42:16] this shows the sharp fine-tuning of all the

[00:42:22] physical parameters necessary or rather that will give life

[00:42:27] that’s reality things being just ridiculously uh improbably

[00:42:38] tuned that allows life to exist but there’s no reason to think that a universe couldn’t exist where physical

[00:42:44] parameters could take on a broad range of values that allow life to exist that

[00:42:50] would be the logically necessary thing what’s surprising very surprising is how

[00:42:56] sharply tuned the parameters are and uh you know how sharp do you mean it’s like

[00:43:02] one chance in a 100 no it’s like one chance in a number that’s too big to

[00:43:09] give a name to uh one chance in 10 to the 60th or one chance in 10 to

[00:43:16] the 40th I mean this is like

[00:43:21] imagine just something that you have a a trillion time a trillion times a

[00:43:29] trillion times 10,000

[00:43:34] dimes and you’ve got one of those that’s red

[00:43:40] and it’s mixed in this huge pile of Dimes and you’re blindfolded and you’re

[00:43:47] told to go and to pick a dime and you go to this mountainous pile and you pick a dime and you get the red one out of all

[00:43:54] those others that’s not to be expected if if that happens the first time you

[00:44:01] would maybe suspect the game is rigged and so I think that the fine tuning is telling us the game is rigged the

[00:44:09] universe is rigged for life and it it ought to tell us that there’s someone

[00:44:14] messing about with these parameters behind the scenes they didn’t just

[00:44:20] happen to turn out this way because of some you know just luck

[00:44:26] luck doesn’t give you those kind of odds so anyway

[00:44:32] um this is the point I make here and just to emphasize it’s not just my

[00:44:39] convictions along this line I I’m quoting here a famous um astronomer from

[00:44:47] the last century Fred ho who was an agnostic uh maybe even an atheist but he

[00:44:54] understood the fine tuning and uh this last line said that he was

[00:45:01] convinced that a super intellect has monkeyed with physics meaning again the

[00:45:06] game is rigged someone’s behind the scenes setting things up and that’s what we see in the universe and the more we

[00:45:13] study the universe the more examples of this we find by the way it’s not like oh if it just looks finely tuned if we

[00:45:19] really understood it better that would go away um so there are many of these

[00:45:26] par the I mentioned a few of them here some of our readers May or listeners may be

[00:45:32] familiar with this the expansion rate of the universe the universe is expanding it has to be expanding at a very precise

[00:45:39] rate for life to exist tuned to about one part in 10 to the 60th the speed why

[00:45:45] does it why does it have to be so particular the expansion rate in order for life to exist that’s that’s a great

[00:45:51] question um it it can be kind of um

[00:45:57] suggested this way here’s a graphic that uh is meant to depict the expansion of

[00:46:02] the Universe from you know a small size on the left and then going to the right time increases and the universe gets

[00:46:10] bigger so it has to be so finely tuned because

[00:46:15] of the way things started off the universe started off with just a mixture

[00:46:22] very uniform mixture of uh gas uh essentially even just

[00:46:30] particles there were no stars there were no galaxies in the early Universe just particles and as the universe

[00:46:38] expanded for us to get to the point where we are today that can support life

[00:46:44] those particles had to coales together meaning they had to Clump together to

[00:46:50] form galaxies and stars that could have planets that could support life and

[00:46:57] knowing the laws of physics so again this is not an argument from ignorance it’s based on knowledge of the way the

[00:47:04] universe is we know that if the universe had expanded too fast gravity would not

[00:47:11] have sufficient time to Clump the material together and no stars or

[00:47:17] galaxies would have formed on the other hand if the and so there would be no life on the other hand

[00:47:23] if the universe had expanded too slowly then the clumping together by gravity of

[00:47:30] the particles in the early Universe would have taken place too efficiently

[00:47:35] and the result would have been the formation of essentially a mass of messy

[00:47:40] black holes which could not have supported any life and surprisingly the kind of not

[00:47:50] falling off the fence to one side or the other in our order for life to exist is balanced to one part part in 10 to the

[00:47:58] 60th and that’s a remarkable amount of fine-tuning and you know some again more

[00:48:05] knowledgeable listeners might say well wait a minute there’s this Cosmic

[00:48:10] inflation period that uh kind of Smooths that out yes we won’t get into the

[00:48:16] details but inflation does not solve the fine-tuning problem as all I’ll say because it introduces many other aspects

[00:48:24] of fine-tuning that have to be explained as as well so so that’s kind of why the

[00:48:30] expansion rate is tuned and you know just something more familiar gravity you

[00:48:37] might think okay well gravity is what it is well if gravity compared to one of

[00:48:43] the other forces the electromagnetic force was just different by one part in

[00:48:49] 10 to the 40th I believe it is then I mean again this is just like 10 the 40th

[00:48:55] is a huge number it’s a trillion time a trillion time a trillion time

[00:49:01] 10,000 one deviation out of that big number would have made the universe

[00:49:07] uninhabitable and so again we have to ask the

[00:49:13] question this just doesn’t make sense like randomly that it turned out to be

[00:49:18] so precisely find tuned to allow life to exist it makes much more sense that as

[00:49:26] Hoy said some super intellect was monkeying with the physics and that super intellect of

[00:49:32] course I would identify as our Creator God and he knew what he was doing and I

[00:49:38] think he left these telltale signs so that even in this age of modern science

[00:49:46] modern technology when it seems like there’s so many lines of evidence or just you know

[00:49:54] cultural doubt um sort of skepticism has grown so much it’s interesting and

[00:50:02] ironic that it’s the study of hard Sciences like physics that actually is providing solid

[00:50:09] evidence for design and that points back to the Creator yeah it’s so amazing

[00:50:15] because it’s funny that uh Paul’s words in Romans chapter 1 all of creation um

[00:50:21] you know makes it clear that God is a reality that that stands true true today

[00:50:27] just as as much as it stood true in his time um yes you’re right that passage

[00:50:34] talks about we by looking at what has been made we should be able to determine at least some of the attributes of God

[00:50:43] his eternal nature and power and you know science has discovered that the

[00:50:50] Universe had a beginning and and that’s what this slide talks about that um

[00:50:59] um the universe has not always existed and this discovery first came about in

[00:51:05] the last century roughly a hundred years ago evidence began to come in pointing to this beginning of the universe and

[00:51:13] and I just want to emphasize for our Bel readers I’m sorry our listeners that

[00:51:20] this is great corroboration of the teachings of the

[00:51:27] Bible if you’ve ever heard of The Big Bang Theory and and you’ve thought oh this is some uh enemy of creation it’s

[00:51:37] not it’s just a scientific name for Genesis 1:1 it’s the discovery of the origin of

[00:51:45] the universe and the significant thing is that the evidence compelled science

[00:51:51] to this conclusion uh philosophically

[00:51:57] kind of uh atheist agnostic science before the 19 roughly 1900 would have

[00:52:04] been comfortable saying and stating that the Universe had always

[00:52:11] existed not that they had evidence for that but that was philosophically and Einstein Einstein

[00:52:18] even taught that uh as far as what I’ve read uh prior to

[00:52:23] 1916 yes and then it was in 1916 when Einstein uh had developed his general

[00:52:30] theory of relativity that his own Theory began to point to a beginning of the

[00:52:36] universe but the prevailing worldview at that time among scientists was again

[00:52:42] this eternal universe and so Einstein bowed to that peer pressure and penciled

[00:52:48] in a literally just a ad hoc fudge factor into his equation that canceled

[00:52:54] out the need for a beginning and he published it that way but then

[00:53:00] the evidence 13 years later from Edwin Hubble an astronomer working at the um

[00:53:07] Mount Wilson Observatory just above Los Angeles with a big uh telescope there

[00:53:13] discovered that in fact the universe is expanding and it was that unexpected

[00:53:20] Discovery from observational astronomy by Edwin Hubble and and some others that cooperated that

[00:53:27] that’s what showed that the Universe must have had a beginning and later theories of

[00:53:35] physics um have shown that what’s really remarkable is that the beginning was an

[00:53:41] absolute beginning just like the Bible teaches it was a beginning of space

[00:53:47] space did not exist it wasn’t like there was an empty space and then stuff began to come into existence no space itself

[00:53:54] began matter and energy came into existence at that moment these are

[00:54:00] results of in-depth I guess theoretical investigations of Einstein’s

[00:54:07] theory by people that are really knowing what they’re doing such as Steven Hawking and Roger

[00:54:13] Penrose and um the other thing that came into existence at that moment according

[00:54:19] to science is time itself so it’s just as much as of a

[00:54:26] creation X nillo as any theological um

[00:54:32] Professor could could hope for and that’s what the Big Bang model is confirming for us from the study of

[00:54:39] Science and I think that’s so remarkable I heard Richard Dawkins you

[00:54:45] know famous atheist at one point uh quibble with this and say oh so

[00:54:51] the Bible got it right well they had a 5050 chance you know they you know

[00:54:57] either it began or it didn’t the Bible said it began well eventually science

[00:55:04] proved it began that’s no big deal it’s just but anyway I think it is a big deal because

[00:55:10] the nature of the beginning matches so much of what is taught in the Bible that

[00:55:16] um the cause of the universe must be something immaterial because matter didn’t exist

[00:55:23] beforehand the cause of the universe must be something Beyond or Transcendent

[00:55:28] to space because space began the cause of the universe must be something that is timeless because time came into

[00:55:36] existence and the cause must be extremely intelligent because got all those parameters pretty much you’re just

[00:55:43] making a list of the attributes of God as you go through what science has shown us about the beginning it’s remarkable

[00:55:51] it is it’s it’s absolutely incredible and it’s funny you know Dawkins says oh yeah well the Bible got right yeah but when the Bible keeps getting it right

[00:55:58] Time After Time After Time After Time uh you have to start to you know the probabilities uh start to increase as

[00:56:04] far as uh what is the likelihood of this all coming together um well uh you know

[00:56:10] this is part of the reason that we believe the Bible is divinely inspired is because uh everything in it is

[00:56:15] incredible so um uh well I I just really want to thank you uh Dr Haden just for

[00:56:22] all your work and and uh for your witness on college campuses and uh um I’m sure that that was pretty difficult

[00:56:29] of a struggle to go through with all being attacked by all these atheists and everything um I wanted to ask you one

[00:56:34] last question because we’re pretty much out of time here but I felt like this was important um you know there are a lot of people out there that are

[00:56:40] Christians they’re at they’re on University campuses and they feel that pressure they feel that tension um I’ve talked to

[00:56:47] some pretty um well-known professors um what would you say to the person out there that’s that’s nervous about um you

[00:56:55] know that tension between I want to be clear that you know it’s obvious there’s a

[00:57:01] designer but on the other hand um you know I know that there might be uh

[00:57:06] backlash um you know based on what you’ve gone through and what you’ve seen other professors go through what counsel

[00:57:13] as uh one Christian to another would you give them uh to kind of encourage them and also just um you know just wisdom

[00:57:22] would you give them well I think that um you know in in the Bible in in Peter it

[00:57:29] has a verse that uh exhorts Believers to always be prepared to make a defense to

[00:57:35] anyone who asks you to account for the hope that is within you and yet do it with gentleness and

[00:57:43] respect and um so I think that I wouldn’t be afraid of having a

[00:57:49] conversation with someone about uh whether they’re trying to push back

[00:57:55] against your belief you know or or trying to present evidence that uh maybe

[00:58:00] they think opposes the idea of God um always a good idea to listen to the

[00:58:07] other person uh first uh and then to in

[00:58:12] your response uh like the word says to make it with gentleness and respect

[00:58:19] sometimes the um kind of demeanor of the messenger is more important than the

[00:58:26] message itself or is at least it’s remembered uh more easily

[00:58:32] so if anyone is is out there and is maybe feeling their faith threatened

[00:58:39] by believers who are sort of pounding or by atheists who are pounding them with

[00:58:46] you know various lines of evidence that they don’t know how to answer and if they’re just not sure how can I respond

[00:58:54] to this what’s good compared to when I was in school now there are so many

[00:59:01] resources that can provide a well-reasoned scientifically

[00:59:07] sound response um to just about any objection that could ever be raised uh

[00:59:15] and you know you mentioned The Discovery Institute uh their website evolution news.org is searchable there’s thousands

[00:59:23] of articles there on pretty much any topic imaginable um they in Southern California the

[00:59:29] reasons to believe group Al also uh Dr Hugh Ross um their website reasons.org

[00:59:37] and do Dr Haden also you’re doing these God’s Not Dead uh events you’ve done

[00:59:42] these can you tell us a little bit about that if somebody wanted to hire you as a speaker or wanted to um uh was

[00:59:50] interested in in having uh that group out to do an event is that something that’s uh possible that is still

[00:59:57] available to people yes yes certainly um

[01:00:03] the me what you mentioned the God’s Not Dead events are are large scale um

[01:00:09] outreaches on University campuses that have been going on for the last many years um I’ve participated in about 40

[01:00:16] of them at different universities over the last three years or so and it’s uh

[01:00:21] led by Dr Rice Brooks who wrote the book God’s Not Dead that became the popular

[01:00:26] movie series or that kind of you know at least it generated that movie series um

[01:00:32] and his heart is to uh essentially bring um the message to students that uh there

[01:00:40] is evidence for God and so I mean you can

[01:00:47] contact me I’m sure that uh listeners could get in touch with me through

[01:00:53] through your your show Kevin and um um so this is just showing my my book

[01:01:00] here so again people can connect with me but also there is a website God’s Not

[01:01:07] Dead events.org that uh lists the upcoming events and um um there would be

[01:01:13] a way to to connect if you’re interested in inviting someone to speak uh to you

[01:01:19] know I can come and speak as an individual or this event is more of a multimedia presentation with a team of

[01:01:24] people that uh you know it’s set up in a large venue and usually we have several

[01:01:29] hundreds uh in attendance um yeah that’s wonderful well um so we’ll post all that

[01:01:37] um on the podcast and also um you know for informational purposes if you’re looking for that kind of uh resource um

[01:01:43] please uhu you’ll have the opportunity to reach out to him uh Dr Haden as well as um everybody involved in that uh

[01:01:50] putting on those outreaches that’s uh really fantastic um again uh Dr Haden thank you so much for taking the time to

[01:01:57] be with us uh it’s really incredible and encouraging so um again you guys can um

[01:02:03] spread the word share the podcast we have some other fantastic guests coming up um very soon got over I believe over

[01:02:10] 300 interviews now up on the podcast if you’re interested in listening to those and then my website is educate

[01:02:16] forlife.org you can go there and get all kinds of help too for curriculum if you’re a homeschool family or if you’re

[01:02:22] looking for Bible study material that’s that’s available for you also on my website uh it’s been a real pleasure

[01:02:28] being with you and um I hope you have a fantastic week and uh we look forward to being with you next time God bless you

[01:02:35] thank you so much when you need tires or service count on Conover tires wheels and service in Oceanside for a full

[01:02:41] range of affordable options and all the brands you trust see their great customer reviews and special offers

[01:02:47] online hours Tuesday through Friday 7:30 to 5:30 and Saturdays 7:30 to 5 call Dan

[01:02:53] and his team at 76439 1631 Conover tires wheels and service

[01:02:59] 2405 Oceanside Boulevard and Oceanside 76439 1631 how can you live in San Diego

[01:03:07] and miss out on enjoying the water fast lane kayaking sells popular hobiecat kayaks that you pedal not paddle that

[01:03:14] means your hands are left free for fishing and fun just throw these on your roof rack they’re light and they’re easy

[01:03:20] to use and maintain just rinse them off try one free on a demo ride for 36 years

[01:03:26] Ron and Debbie lanee have served San Diego with fun familyfriendly water sports of all kinds learn more fast lane

[01:03:33] sailing.com 619 222 0766 educate for life helps you build

[01:03:40] your life on the Rock LG equipment helps Builders build on good soil Luke Gibson’s team at LG equipment is your

[01:03:46] local source for grading demolition hauling and more learn about their bulk water services from trucks to tankers to

[01:03:52] Towers at rwater tower.com get your questions answered call LG equipment at 619 988 924 learn more at

[01:04:02] LG equipment.com 619 988 924 hi this is Jason Hall president of

[01:04:09] Team Home Loans a branch of synergy1 lending I just want to take this opportunity to thank Kevin Conover for

[01:04:15] the profound impact he’s had on mine and my wife’s spiritual life as well as being an incredible teacher while our

[01:04:21] kids were his students his knowledge and passion have taught us all how important it is to to be Defenders of our faith

[01:04:27] it’s our honor and privilege to support Kevin and his show it is our sincere hope and prayer that you will continue

[01:04:32] to learn to be Defenders of your faith through Kevin’s radio show and through his educate for Life teachings thank you

[01:04:38] Kevin from the hall family and team home loans