Introducing Christianity to Mormons with Eric Johnson

[00:00:00] thanks for tuning in today this is kevin conover and you’re listening uh if you’re listening down here in san diego it’s kprz.com

[00:00:07] uh that’s k praise 12 10 a.m here locally down in southern california and we’re also on fm 106.1 in north county

[00:00:14] and then of course we’re podcast all over the place and we’re on youtube and i’ve got an exciting show today

[00:00:21] my guest is eric johnson and he’s a friend of mine and uh actually

[00:00:26] we both taught at the same school he’s actually taught i found out longer than i did at christian high

[00:00:32] but he’s been in mormon ministry reaching members of the church of latter-day

[00:00:37] saints jesus christ of latter-day saints in utah and just came out with a book

[00:00:44] introducing christianity to mormons and uh it’s a fantastic book uh here it

[00:00:50] is right here i’m holding it up for you and uh if you have friends or neighbors or relatives that are from the mormon

[00:00:57] church uh it’s really really uh encouraging and uh it’ll really educate

[00:01:03] you and it’s also a blessing to be able to give it to somebody that you know who is a part of the church of jesus christ

[00:01:08] of latter-day saints so eric thanks a lot for being here today thanks for having me on kevin yeah it’s a huge blessing how long did

[00:01:15] you teach at christian high i taught for 17 years yeah yeah all the way until 2010 and then you

[00:01:21] took over the department i had a couple years later yeah yeah that’s pretty pretty crazy and you’re still um and now

[00:01:28] you do ministry in utah um how long have you been doing that oh we’ve moved here in 2010 so this is

[00:01:35] our 13th year love living here in the midst of where mormonism happens in the salt lake city

[00:01:42] area yeah yeah um you know i want to you know hop right into here to a question

[00:01:47] because i you know i’m the apologetics teacher over at christian high and it’s what you did too and it’s such a joy it’s a lot

[00:01:54] of fun uh talking to the kids but whenever we get into the the issue of mormonism uh it’s amazing to me it is

[00:02:01] the the religion that my students seem to bump into more than any other particular

[00:02:06] religion not more than islam more than more than hinduism more than

[00:02:13] jehovah’s witness really anything and the students also seem to be more interested in it than

[00:02:20] any other particular religion maybe for that same reason um but one of the things that happens just it’s

[00:02:25] uh all the time is that a student will say yeah i was talking to my mormon friend they said they’re christians too

[00:02:31] and uh you know and and this has been my experience before i knew much about mormonism somebody would come to the door and i

[00:02:37] would uh they’d they’d say hi we’re here from the church of jesus christ of latter-day saints i would say oh i’m sorry i’m a christian and then say so am

[00:02:45] i and then i’d say yeah but i believe in jesus christ and they would say so do i and then they would say i would say but

[00:02:51] i believe i’m saved by grace you know through faith and they’d say so do i and then i was like

[00:02:57] okay well i guess we’re done you know um and is that that i when i’m

[00:03:03] reading your book um is this it seems like it’s one of the main drivers of why you you wrote the book

[00:03:08] yeah i want to say that i love latter-day saints i don’t want anybody who’s a latter-day saint listening to

[00:03:13] this say oh he must hate them i moved to utah because i love the people even though i never have been

[00:03:19] a member of the church of jesus christ latter-day saints but my title alone is going to make some true blue mormons as

[00:03:26] they’re called upset because introducing christianity what do you mean we’re christians too and then two

[00:03:32] mormons back in 2018 the top leader of the church russell m nelson declared

[00:03:37] that jesus is offended whenever we use the term mormon which was a big change because their website was called lds.org

[00:03:45] and and mormon dot org they changed to the church of jesus christ dot org i can’t use that term for the church

[00:03:52] because i don’t believe it is the church of jesus christ uh so so just the title i have alone is offensive but when you

[00:03:59] do talk to latter-day saints as you’re talking about here kevin uh you are going to run into this and i don’t like

[00:04:05] to say well i’m a christian and you’re not because we do get in that back and forth battle and i don’t want to do that

[00:04:10] but at the same time i have to acknowledge that there are differences and so one of the things i did in the book is every time i came upon a unique

[00:04:18] word i have an appendix in the back that is a glossary to define those terms instead of trying to just define those

[00:04:24] terms in the text i would just send people there by having that italicized word there but when we use the term

[00:04:31] atonement when we use the term grace saved by grace or jesus and being my

[00:04:37] savior latter-day saints are going to say of course that’s what we believe he’s in our church’s name when you know

[00:04:42] church of jesus christ of latter-day saints but i think the problem that a lot of christians

[00:04:48] don’t understand is that we do have that same language but different meanings so you never tell a latter-day saint what

[00:04:53] he or she believes but rather you ask them what do you mean when you say that you’re saved by grace because in

[00:04:59] christianity we believe in ephesians 2 8 9 we’re saved by grace through faith it’s not of ourselves it is the gift of

[00:05:04] god not by works lest any man should boast and latter day saints immediately want to take you to james 2 20. faith

[00:05:11] without works is dead well i agree with with what uh james says in james 2 20 yes when you have faith works will

[00:05:17] follow and in fact verse 10 of ephesians 2 does say that we for we are god’s

[00:05:22] workmanship created by christ jesus to do good works so when you understand that salvation by

[00:05:28] faith for a christian means that justification by faith alone the rallying cry of the reformation

[00:05:35] where we have ephesians 2 8 9 they’ll go to second nephi 25 23 in the book of mormon they have four scriptures the

[00:05:41] bible king james version they have the book of mormon doctrine and covenants and for the great price and so that says

[00:05:47] in second nephi 25 23 we’re saved by grace after all we can do so what that

[00:05:53] means is you’re saved by grace which is what’s called immortality and you get one of three kingdoms of glory but

[00:05:59] eternal life celestial kingdom exaltation the very best the religion has to offer is only available through

[00:06:07] complete comm uh commandment keeping how many commandments is the latter day saints supposed to keep all of them how

[00:06:12] often all the time and they know that and so for us yeah when you say uh eric keep all

[00:06:19] the commandments are you referring to the ten commandments what are you referring to specifically there that would be anything the church deems to be

[00:06:25] something you need to do that would include going to church on sunday honoring the sabbath day to keep it holy but it also would include

[00:06:32] getting baptized it would include going to church on a on a regular basis uh

[00:06:37] going to the temple and doing the work that’s necessary for not only this life but the next life you get married there

[00:06:44] for time and eternity i was just at the san diego temple a couple weeks ago talking to missionaries that are there

[00:06:50] they’re positioned right outside the front door you can go and talk to them i encourage christians to go to the temple and do that as well as the mormon

[00:06:56] battalion center and ask questions and i ask the question to these missionaries do you know if you were to die right now

[00:07:01] you would have eternal life and they said and they knew what i meant eternal life eternal life is for them uh

[00:07:08] becoming gods and goddesses and they said no we don’t know that for sure but but we’re doing our best and we’re

[00:07:15] trying and then i cited first john 5 13. we may know that we have eternal life latter-day

[00:07:22] saints generally have no idea of an assurance of salvation as christians we

[00:07:28] do believe that we’re saved by grace through faith that’s the justification through grace and mercy

[00:07:34] that we receive and that jesus imputes his righteousness into our account so

[00:07:40] it’s based on work but it’s not based on my work it’s based on what he has done and so those missionaries had to admit

[00:07:47] that they didn’t have an assurance of salvation that i’m capable of having and that’s a biblical faith to know that we

[00:07:54] have eternal life first john 5 13 teaches it and so i believe it that’s awesome dependent on him not dependent

[00:08:01] on me that’s the big difference there but now i have a question for you about this because i had an unusual experience

[00:08:07] i actually um you know i frequently try to have people on my radio program who are from different faiths i’ve had uh

[00:08:14] muslims on as well as former muslims on and um i i’ve had uh one of the gentlemen you you quote in

[00:08:20] here i’ve actually had him on my program too um former muslim i’m sorry former mormon um

[00:08:26] uh corey miller uh he was on my program right uh really nice guy and um but i had a guy on the program who was a

[00:08:33] current mormon and uh he was a very very well-off individual

[00:08:39] he was very high up in the church and we made an immediate connection because both of our kids have the same

[00:08:46] health uh issues anyway he ended up inviting me over to his house

[00:08:52] and so my wife and i went over to his house for dinner and it was just him and his wife and and the two of us and my

[00:08:57] wife and i and i i said you mind if i ask you some you know personal questions about mormonism because uh he was very

[00:09:04] he knew you know that i was a dedicated christian and and so he said no go ahead and and i said do you believe that

[00:09:10] you’re saved by faith and not by works and he said to me um well we do

[00:09:16] jesus does 97 and we do like three percent and so i said well that’s that’s where

[00:09:22] we’re we’re different i believe jesus does 100 but then his wife cut in and

[00:09:28] said no no jesus does a hundred percent and at that point i was like

[00:09:34] okay well now i’m i’m confused what what do you actually believe right and so do you run into this frequently where

[00:09:41] um mormons actually have different beliefs than what’s actually taught in official mormon doctrine is this a

[00:09:47] common thing where or is there disagreement within the mormon church what’s going on there oh

[00:09:53] absolutely because the church leadership has given itself the right to be able to

[00:09:58] teach authoritatively there’s a prophet his name is russell m nelson he’s in his late 90s he has two counselors that

[00:10:05] group of three men is known as the first presidency 12 apostles underneath them and groups of men called the 70s they

[00:10:12] they’re the ones who are supposed to speak authoritatively but what you just cited was from a byu professor he’s he

[00:10:19] just passed away a few years ago stephen e robinson and uh and basically the idea

[00:10:24] that uh jesus pays uh you know the rest well there’s nothing you have to offer

[00:10:30] it says in isaiah 64 6 that all of our righteous acts are like filthy rags in god’s sight it sounds almost spiritual

[00:10:37] like well if you know um if i do my best then jesus does the rest 97 you’re right

[00:10:45] it it’s it’s uh not accurate according to the bible because jesus paid it all all to him i owe is how the the hymn

[00:10:51] goes and so for for a person to say well we’re talking about the same gospel and the same jesus that’s not true at all

[00:10:58] because if it’s true that i have anything to do my sin tainted uh heart

[00:11:03] is not going to be able to accomplish the perfection that that god requires

[00:11:08] and you have to understand too you never tell a latter day saint what he or she believes that’s a mistake some

[00:11:14] christians will make they they read our books like we have a book called mormonism 101 that compares the two oh

[00:11:19] you believe this and you believe that that’s not what you want to do because the latter day saint might not actually

[00:11:25] believe that so uh he then what you ask is what is it that you believe about

[00:11:32] salvation by grace through faith oh you know this is what i believe now knowing a little bit about the faith you’ll be

[00:11:38] able to ask questions that will be able to help you understand where they’re at and then you can answer them but when a

[00:11:45] latter-day saint typically says salvation and again this is in the appendix with the glossary when they use

[00:11:52] the word appendix they could be meaning one of two things there’s what’s called immortality

[00:11:57] immortality is being born in this earth because mormonism teaches in what’s called

[00:12:02] pre-existence in a previous life we had to make a decision between the plan offered by lucifer and the plan offered

[00:12:09] by jesus two brothers who came up with two different plans lucifer’s plan said

[00:12:15] everybody is going to be forced to uh to to follow uh the gospel of heavenly

[00:12:21] father and jesus said we’ll give them agency well jesus plan was the righteous one because jesus was the firstborn so

[00:12:27] because we chose we were jesus we were allowed to be born in this earth but one third of our brothers and sisters did

[00:12:33] not choose jesus they chose lucifer’s plan they became the spirits uh that are called demons without bodies they’re not

[00:12:40] able to progress immortality then is salvation through by grace atonement

[00:12:46] they’ll use uh those terms are all referring to immortality you’ll get one of three kingdoms of glory but the very

[00:12:53] top kingdom of glory that the mormon is supposed to want is called the celestial kingdom and the only way that you can

[00:13:00] get there is by keeping the commandments continually it says in doctrine and covenant section 1

[00:13:07] it says for i the lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance

[00:13:13] nevertheless he that repents and does the commandments of the lord shall be

[00:13:18] forgiven ask a latter-day saint how many commandments must you keep they know what the answer is all of them how often

[00:13:25] all the time so there’s a difference between immortality and eternal life

[00:13:30] exaltation celestial kingdom are all our celestial glory are all synonymous terms

[00:13:36] and you must understand that if you’re going to communicate with the latter-day saint to make the point clear that

[00:13:43] christianity doesn’t have that kind of a teaching so that’s yeah that’s really interesting now um so there’s there’s the telestreal

[00:13:50] terrestrial celestial these three levels of heaven in mormonism now um you know if somebody were to say

[00:13:57] well uh you know i’m fine with going to the telescope or the terrestrial uh it’s

[00:14:03] okay if i don’t make it to the celestial um you know how do you respond to something like that where where uh they they say

[00:14:10] you know i’m gonna be fine it’s no big deal i i actually use uh pascal’s wager

[00:14:17] um which i’m sure you’re familiar with the idea that uh what are you willing to bet your life on it’s not a good reason

[00:14:22] to become a christian but at the same time it’s something that will get somebody to think and so if they don’t

[00:14:28] think they’re gonna get the celestial kingdom normally they’ll say i’m going to the terrestrial kingdom which is supposed to be a really nice place

[00:14:34] supposedly joseph smith said at one time if you only could peek into the terrestrial kingdom you

[00:14:40] you’d want to be there right away you’d want to almost commit suicide to get there that’s how beautiful it is so is

[00:14:45] that where you think you’re headed yeah okay because i’m not qualified for the celestial a lot of latter-day saints

[00:14:50] will admit that they’re not doing everything they’re supposed to do for the celestial kingdom and then i say okay well what’s my situation if i were

[00:14:58] to die right now where do you think i would end up if you’re correct on your theology oh you seem like a nice guy

[00:15:04] usually i’m told you probably will head to the terrestrial kingdom is as well and i and my response is let me get this

[00:15:11] straight so you’re going to get what i’m going to get and i can drink coffee i mean why

[00:15:17] would i want to go through all of that to to be able to have the same as what you have i don’t think i think the

[00:15:24] mormon would be correct if they don’t think they’re going to qualify for the celestial kingdom because i don’t think anybody could except for jesus himself

[00:15:30] but if that’s the case then what it do they have to gain from their

[00:15:36] religion if they’re not going to get to be with their family forever because that’s the goal the man would become the

[00:15:41] god of a new world just as heavenly father was once the god or actually he was a human who lived in

[00:15:47] another realm he was he was a human with the body of flesh and bones doctrine and covenant section 130 verse 22 says that

[00:15:54] god has a body of flesh and bone and that he had a god before him and he had a god before him and it’s really an

[00:16:00] infinite regress it makes no sense where did the first god come from and the hope in mormonism is that they’ll have a

[00:16:06] chance to be as god is now by by righteously obeying every uh commandment

[00:16:12] by going to the temple by learning special tokens they’re called their handshakes for masonry to get a new name

[00:16:19] the man has to call the woman up by her name that they’ll be able to use those tokens to get into the celestial kingdom

[00:16:26] but the bible doesn’t teach this this is why we need as christians to be able to

[00:16:31] introduce christianity to mormons they need to know that there is hope beyond them trying to earn god’s favor by going

[00:16:39] to a temple and doing the things the church says yeah i have i’ve i have so many questions popping up in my head here as

[00:16:45] you’re talking because there’s so many uh nuances in in this um that that are

[00:16:50] i’m curious about um so i’m just going to rattle off some of my questions here um

[00:16:56] one of the questions i have is i know that mormon heaven selected in the celestial promises that that a man can

[00:17:02] become a god of his own planet and um then he he has these goddess

[00:17:07] wives um what what is the benefit for a woman is it that she gets to be

[00:17:14] a goddess on that planet and is that uh many goddess women what what is going on there is that what’s considered

[00:17:21] heaven for them i had a i had a student say that doesn’t sound very great to me to be perpetually pregnant um i i don’t

[00:17:27] i don’t like that idea right now the church is having a big problem with several different issues

[00:17:33] one would be the um lgbtq issue that’s a big struggle in their church right now

[00:17:39] many members are i believe in homosexuality as an alternative choice

[00:17:44] uh but also feminism and you have to understand the feminists have a pretty

[00:17:49] loud voice even though there’s nothing official they are not allowed to have women priests so the men are the ones

[00:17:55] who hold this special priesthood called the aaronic priest hood and the melchizedek priesthood

[00:18:00] these boys that get it at 12 or actually 11 now and 18 they’ll get the melchizedek priesthood that’s the the

[00:18:07] authority well the women are saying well what about us why can’t we have authority because in christianity we

[00:18:13] have what’s called the priesthood of the believer we believe that there’s a royal priesthood that every believer has

[00:18:19] there’s neither male nor female so you know the idea that that’s uh is a concern for a lot of latter-day saints

[00:18:25] another concern for them is that they’re uh the view that only heavenly

[00:18:31] father ought to be worshipped now there are other gods and they can’t tell you about these gods on other planets they can’t tell you really that they don’t

[00:18:38] really have a lot of information about the polygamy that took place but uh earlier leaders did very clearly say

[00:18:45] this is how god the father did it and that there would be polygamy reinstated in the next life in fact the top two

[00:18:51] leaders of the church uh dallin h oaks is the first counselor of the first presidency and then you have russell m

[00:18:56] nelson both are married to two women uh not at the same time one their first wives died and then they got married to

[00:19:02] them again or not married to other women and who had not been married to a man uh

[00:19:08] for eternity before and so they were married to them for time and eternity a second time they they planned to see

[00:19:14] both of those women so you ask the question what’s in it for them uh they’re not going to be worshipped so there’s not

[00:19:20] worship that’s going to be given to them because the church says no it’s wrong to pray to heavenly mother it’s wrong to

[00:19:27] we’ll sing a song about her they have hymns that are dedicated to her but they are not allowed to worship or pray to

[00:19:33] heavenly mother so a lot of women have a problem with that the idea that they’re

[00:19:38] beholden to their husbands who are going to be married to other women and they’re going to need to be if they want to

[00:19:44] populate their next world again they don’t know much about that how that all works out the latter day saying i don’t

[00:19:50] know much about it but do you believe in this couplet as man is god once was as god is man may be that’s

[00:19:58] by lorenzo snow in 1840 joseph smith called it doctrine the idea that god has

[00:20:03] a body of flesh and bones as we do today in what’s called the second estate or mortality we have this body and we want

[00:20:10] to progress by keeping the commandments by going to the temple doing our work for ourselves doing work on behalf of

[00:20:16] the dead most of the work done at that san diego temple is being done on behalf of dead people that’s why genealogy is

[00:20:22] so important and then that second part as god is man may be

[00:20:28] well that’s great for the man who is going to learn his wife’s new name which they get in the temple when they get

[00:20:33] married he has to use that new name which comes from either the book of mormon or the bible everybody in the temple gets the

[00:20:39] same name that day the man gets a new name as well and he must call her up by

[00:20:45] that name he they must go together and get into the celestial kingdom after the

[00:20:50] judgment takes place use those handshakes to get in and i’m i’m i’m a letter you say might say i’m being

[00:20:56] mean-spirited that’s what they are they’re called tokens but they’re going to use that to get into the very best

[00:21:01] this religion has to offer now her goal is to produce spirit children just as

[00:21:06] heavenly father’s wives did and there will be other women and it’s a it’s a physical union heavenly father is not

[00:21:13] just waving he’s not just touching they’re having relations and so there will be relations like that in the next

[00:21:19] life a lot of latter-day saints like that idea but it’s usually the men who more like that idea more than the women

[00:21:26] so um so this man when he becomes the god of

[00:21:32] his own planet and so are they are they uh i know at one

[00:21:37] time they practiced polygamy right uh and then then the u.s uh government said hey no more

[00:21:44] polygamy i believe that was 1890 uh yep and so

[00:21:51] now they still the mormon church still believes in celestial marriage polygamy but not not

[00:21:57] physically here um now there have been court cases now that happened a while ago in utah where

[00:22:04] uh that one of the judges did not um i guess it was a considered a religious

[00:22:09] issue and you can do what you want in your own home um is the church’s position on the issue of polygamy um

[00:22:16] gradually changing towards an acceptance of polygamy and is that just a spiritual polygamy or is that actual uh

[00:22:23] is that actual polygamy here yeah the spiritual polygamy you’re talking about that always has been and always will be

[00:22:29] so they it wouldn’t be right to say that mormonism no longer teaches in polygamy it still does in the spiritual sense uh

[00:22:36] that they’ll be able to uh get married here to uh and now a man can get married

[00:22:42] to two women in an eternal sense a woman cannot get married to two men once she’s been married to a man she’s no longer

[00:22:48] going to be allowed to to to do that but they would not say that polygamy is okay

[00:22:54] in fact they have used the word cult and i don’t like to use the word cult when i’m talking about latter-day saints

[00:23:00] because it’s it’s a pejorative it’s a word they don’t really care for and so i never used that word but leaders over

[00:23:07] the years have said the polygamous cults they certainly are not looking for that

[00:23:13] kind of a issue you know someday maybe the u.s government we’ve already allowed for uh

[00:23:19] homosexual marriage maybe someday they’re going to allow for polygamous marriage and i don’t think the church will want that because now what are they

[00:23:26] going to do because they were told that it was taken away because of the politics and then

[00:23:31] god said okay it’s actually the manifesto from 1890 is more of a

[00:23:36] political statement than it is any kind of a quote-unquote revelation so what are they going to do with that because

[00:23:42] they do believe in the next life there will have to be polygamy because that man is going to be responsible to

[00:23:48] populate and they don’t like to use the word planet sometimes they’ll allow the word world but even they they take umbrage to that

[00:23:55] and say you’re trying to make a sound like a fairy tale or something but i’m just going off of what your leaders have said the earlier leaders before 1890

[00:24:02] including brigham young said very clearly a man cannot make it into the celestial kingdom unless he’s polygamous

[00:24:08] because what’s he going to do not having enough wives so that something certainly is at the core and the reason why

[00:24:15] polygamist groups have left we have a number of them here in utah and you go i was just in st george’s past week

[00:24:22] and shopping at a couple of stores at the costco for instance and you’ll see the women in the prairie dresses we see

[00:24:29] that some here but even more so in southern utah it’s still polygamy is

[00:24:34] very much a practice in utah it’s just done under the table and uh and nobody really bothers them

[00:24:40] because what are you going to do you’re going to arrest the the men and leave the women to the welfare they tried that

[00:24:45] in the 1950s it’s called the short creek raids you can look that one up it was a disaster a public relations disaster

[00:24:52] yeah for uh for for uh for the church because uh it caused all kinds of hurt

[00:24:57] feelings and and so uh yeah so this is something i don’t think the church will ever want but who knows with our society

[00:25:05] the way it is marriage is no longer if it’s no longer between a man and a woman then pretty much anything goes and so

[00:25:13] why shouldn’t three or four people be allowed to get married to each other yeah yeah

[00:25:18] um so another big question i have is and this is a question i bring up specifically in

[00:25:24] when we when we cover uh mormonism in that unit we talk about essential doctrines

[00:25:30] and uh my question for you is specifically um you know how much can a person be

[00:25:37] wrong and still be right you know when it comes to mormonism and the fact that um

[00:25:44] that that uh you know this this mormon i was witnessing to

[00:25:51] said i believe in jesus christ i believe that he died on the cross for my sins and i believe that i’m saved by grace

[00:25:58] i don’t believe that um i don’t believe that any of my works do

[00:26:03] anything right um so so how much can a person be wrong and still

[00:26:09] be right and go to heaven not everybody knows everything there is to know right we all have limited amounts of knowledge

[00:26:15] and i’m sure god is going to clear up a bunch of disagreements right

[00:26:21] theology someday yeah and even in your book i thought it was really interesting one of the things in

[00:26:26] your book you say is that there are actually a lot of mormons who don’t even believe in mormonism but stay in the church because of the fallout that comes

[00:26:33] from leaving you you can potentially lose your family um and so

[00:26:38] uh are there mormons that are secretly actually christians and and are gonna be going to heaven um what help clarify

[00:26:46] where the dividing line is there yeah look kevin i i’m not anybody’s judge all

[00:26:52] i have is the bible and what it tells me a person has to do and yes we’re supposed to believe in jesus yes we’re

[00:26:58] supposed to have this relationship with him and we’re saved by grace the things that the mormon can say he believes but

[00:27:04] we have to understand that false gospels do exist galatians 1 8 9 says if anyone

[00:27:10] preaches to you a false gospel what was the false gospel that the judaizers were preaching they were preaching in christ

[00:27:17] they were preaching in salvation by grace but you had to keep the dietary law you had to get circumcised paul said

[00:27:24] no that’s another gospel paul also writes in second corinthians 11 4 it’s possible to have a false jesus

[00:27:30] and so if the view of jesus is the wrong view because muslims believe that jesus

[00:27:36] is a great prophet one of the seven greatest peace be upon him they’ll say they have great reverence for jesus but

[00:27:42] is that really a saving salvation there are people going to our churches who believe in jesus quote unquote

[00:27:49] and yet do they really have that relationship here’s the problem mormonism denies or distorts every

[00:27:56] single fundamental teaching of the historic christian church and i think the problem with the guy that you were talking to

[00:28:02] that you have together is a problem of communication you’re not communicating because he says

[00:28:10] these terms and if we just accept them at face value what do you mean when you say you have a relationship with jesus

[00:28:16] what does that mean for you what does it mean you’re saved by grace i i just need

[00:28:21] to know more well let me just come on to that one grace according to christianity

[00:28:27] grace is a free gift given by god it’s not something you pay for it’s it’s not by works as i quoted from uh from

[00:28:34] ephesians chapter two in mormonism it is basically uh it’s it’s um uh how do they

[00:28:42] put it um it’s it’s basically uh your ability to keep the commandments and i’m not coming up

[00:28:49] with the correct term right now but uh it’s it’s your ability to do those works that you need to do so that’s why second

[00:28:56] nephi 2523 rings true in mormonism you’re saved by grace after all you can

[00:29:01] do what is after all you can do mean it means what the leaders have said keeping

[00:29:06] the commandments over and over again and now the general conferences they have twice a year here in salt lake city

[00:29:13] oftentimes they are coming up with these uh sermons that are kind of tricky because they’ll say like for instance

[00:29:19] one leader a guy named jeffrey r holland said you get credit for trying

[00:29:24] well credit for trying what and and and you read what he says he’s not saying you’re going to get the celestial

[00:29:30] kingdom for that’s not the credit it’s just that you’re closer and getting better and your goal though has to be keeping the

[00:29:37] commandments continually and unless you do where i am you cannot come that’s what

[00:29:43] joseph smith said he was told in doctrine and covenant section 25 verse 15. so lds scripture is very clear the

[00:29:49] leaders are very clear you need to ask the letter to say what do you mean by that the glossary at the

[00:29:55] back of my book should be helpful because it’s going to help you understand what the mormon means so i

[00:30:01] don’t want to tell a mormon well you are going to hell because i’m telling you you are i’m just saying it doesn’t sound

[00:30:08] like the god you worship who once has who has a body of flesh and bones and uh

[00:30:13] once lived in another world and that you hope to become god someday yourself or like god uh

[00:30:19] that doesn’t seem to be a biblical stance and so the bible says that that faith does

[00:30:25] matter and how you believe you need to know exactly what the bible teaches and

[00:30:31] and so i appreciate you have those things because i i’ve talked to hundreds and hundreds of latter-day saints who

[00:30:36] would say the same thing but i try to say well this is what your leaders say would you deny what spencer w kimball

[00:30:43] says that on page 25 here are over 80 thing 80 things in his book the miracle of forgiveness written in 1969 a classic

[00:30:50] he says here are the 85 things you got to do and he says perfection is an achievable goal and he says that trying

[00:30:57] is not sufficient nor is his repentance complete when one merely tries to abandon sin to try is weak to do the

[00:31:03] best you can is not strong you must always do better than you can this is true in every walk

[00:31:09] of life so i would take visas two and second nephi 25 i pit them

[00:31:14] together they don’t coincide yeah i love this in your book um

[00:31:19] i i highlighted and underlined a bunch of stuff here where you’re talking about kimball and

[00:31:25] to quote exactly what you just said it said um in i love also about your book that you have these conversations that

[00:31:32] you’ve written out that are very helpful because um to see how that practically can play out in a discussion is very

[00:31:38] helpful i think for everybody and by the way if you’re just tuning in my guest today is eric johnson he’s just recently

[00:31:45] um released a book introducing christianity to mormons and um you know if you have mormon friends or

[00:31:51] mormon family members i can’t recommend this book highly enough also his website

[00:31:56] mrm.org and also inter introducing christianity.com these are great places to get more help and um encouragement um

[00:32:04] and i i also love your attitude eric um that um we love mormons you know um

[00:32:11] mormons are some of the nicest people i’ve ever met honestly i mean every every mormon i meet honestly is

[00:32:17] involved in some sort of effort to humanitarian effort you know

[00:32:22] um i met a guy down we were i was doing evangelism down at the beach and

[00:32:28] he walked up and started talking to me about how he was in town to to fight um human trafficking and uh i could tell by

[00:32:35] the way he was talking that he wasn’t a christian and so i immediately asked him these questions and we had a great we had a great discussion just the nicest

[00:32:41] guy ever and then another guy had donated millions of dollars to to ready

[00:32:46] children’s hospital and other kids hospitals and so um you know mormons are are absolutely uh some of the nicest

[00:32:53] people now i’ve heard in the past interestingly i actually had a former mormon in one of my sunday school classes and she was very bitter about

[00:33:01] her past um with mormonism she she her family had been mormon for a very very

[00:33:07] long time and the the passion with which she detested

[00:33:12] uh the church was astonishing to me um she didn’t even want me to talk to mormons she was so upset when she heard

[00:33:19] i was going to be interviewing somebody in the mormon leadership um she was just

[00:33:24] almost like it was just uh pretty powerful and i thought to myself wow i wonder what

[00:33:29] happened to her that she would have that much bitterness um towards the church of jesus where does that come from why uh

[00:33:37] when when i when i see mormons today they’re so nice where does that bitterness come from um for a lot of

[00:33:42] people well you’re talking about a lady who found out the church wasn’t true however she found out it might have been

[00:33:48] the history and the doctrines because the church between 2013 and 2015 came

[00:33:53] out with 13 gospel topics essays you can go on their website and find that find those essays today uh admitting that

[00:34:00] joseph smith had between 30 and 40 wives a lot of latter-day saints didn’t know that admitting that the book of mormon was

[00:34:06] translated with the seer stone placed in a hat joseph smith didn’t even look at the plates that he supposedly dug up but

[00:34:12] looking into his hat or that the book of abraham is true even though uh

[00:34:18] we don’t have a the physical uh uh document that that he supposedly used a

[00:34:23] common funeral papyri from about 2000 years ago has nothing to do with abraham and they have to admit it’s a spiritual

[00:34:29] translation and not a physical translation those are problems and you and so a lot of latter-day saints are

[00:34:35] taught and they’re telling each other when hard times come they say if the church isn’t true then nothing else is

[00:34:43] and i think that’s a lie from satan because if the church isn’t true when we’re talking about the mormon church if

[00:34:48] it’s not true something else is it could be atheism and 45 of all people who

[00:34:54] leave mormonism according to a survey taken in 2019 they’re heading to atheism

[00:35:00] agnosticism or nothing at all where another 21 say they’re just christian

[00:35:06] only one they haven’t gone to church or anything they’re just moral it’s moralism only one third of the people leaving are

[00:35:12] going to some kind of religion and out of it evangelical christianity is the highest but it’s only ten percent that

[00:35:19] means if somebody leaves only one out of ten end up coming to christianity and the reason why and i talk to them all

[00:35:25] the time people who have left the church especially recently they’re very bitter because they have been lied to they’re

[00:35:31] angry and they want revenge oftentimes and that’s one thing that you have to really work with somebody who’s left the

[00:35:37] church and if they become a christian you have to work with them to get rid of that bitterness and say i have a friend

[00:35:43] who who felt that way for a long time until he finally understood it was god’s way of bringing him to the truth and he

[00:35:49] might not have known the truth ever had he not ever been a latter-day saint just all the circumstances that come together

[00:35:56] so i think we need to love the latter day saint uh i have a deep compassion for them the bible says in

[00:36:02] first corinth or first peter 3 16 that we’re supposed to do it with gentleness and respect we need to listen to what

[00:36:08] latter-day saints are saying and and we need to hear them out when they when they’re bitter like that but then to say

[00:36:14] you know what you can’t be bitter the rest your life and guess what you if you’re a christian you’ve got eternal

[00:36:20] life and it was yours for the asking wow what a what a blessing that is so

[00:36:25] i’m hoping you know what i’m going to throw something out here kevin i don’t normally do this i i mean i’m doing some

[00:36:31] of these podcasts but this book is meant for a christian especially because it’s

[00:36:37] a christian publisher harvest house but i also wrote this book for for latter-day saints who might be

[00:36:42] willing to take a look at what christianity has to say if any of your listeners would like to get the book who

[00:36:50] are either in the church or have left in the last year they can email me eric

[00:36:55] mrm.org eric mrm.org uh the first five people who have to be have you have to

[00:37:02] be in the church or just recently left and not for you to give to somebody but you’re the person i would love to give

[00:37:07] you that copy because i think when you understand the hope that is offered in

[00:37:12] christianity that you don’t have to throw the baby out with the bathwater that there is something besides

[00:37:18] mormonism i’m sorry that the latter day saint was burned by men but it wasn’t done by god or jesus and the mormon once

[00:37:24] believed in god and he believed that jesus was the savior and now they want to throw the whole thing away it’s not

[00:37:30] it’s not worth it if there really is a god anna jesus who did die for sins amen amen that’s awesome

[00:37:37] yeah so um the other question you know i i have this interview um i have my students and

[00:37:44] i think you did the same thing i had my students interview somebody from another religion for their project they can interview somebody who’s currently from

[00:37:51] another religion or they can interview somebody that was formally a part of that religion and one of the interviews

[00:37:56] i got was uh really interesting and it was a former mormon um i i believe he

[00:38:02] was uh either a high priest or in the 70s or or one of these positions yeah

[00:38:09] but what happened to him in and he tells the story and to these to the students and and he’s a christian now but he said

[00:38:16] um a gentleman came to him a christian came to him and said if you can answer these 10 questions

[00:38:22] um i will become a mormon that’s what the the gentleman said to him and he

[00:38:27] thought oh done deal this guy’s going to become a mormon in no time and he started

[00:38:33] researching the questions and he was like man i can’t get the answers to these questions and he kept going

[00:38:39] down the list and it started frustrating him like crazy and he ended up writing

[00:38:44] to the apostles in the mormon church and saying i need answers to these questions because they’re they’re really getting

[00:38:51] me and i need answers and he said that they wrote back to him and said good

[00:38:56] mormons do not ask these types of questions and he said at that point he knew

[00:39:01] that it was not true and what’s crazy though and what drives me crazy is he never lists the 10 questions

[00:39:08] that god the guy asked him and so i’m always like oh my goodness give me the ten questions and i could never get a

[00:39:15] hold of the guy again i couldn’t get a hold of them but i’m just curious in your mind are there

[00:39:21] are there particular um questions you know if you if you were to think in your head what are those ten questions or

[00:39:27] what are five of those questions um are there any that come to your mind that you would be like yeah these these are

[00:39:33] really helpful questions to help uh somebody who’s a part of the church of jesus christ of latter-day

[00:39:38] saints really really begin to go wait a second i need to reevaluate what i believe is there

[00:39:43] anything that pops in your head on that well you know uh there’s different ways you can do evangelism with latter-day

[00:39:49] saints we actually wrote a book sean mcdowell and i edited a book called sharing the good news with mormons back in 2018 with harvest house and we gave

[00:39:57] 24 different possible ways but as far as asking questions one of the chapters in that book had to do with the columbo

[00:40:03] tactic of asking questions and i don’t know what those 10 questions were but if

[00:40:08] i one of the questions i like to ask uh is uh do you know that you have eternal

[00:40:14] life and so i think you could turn that into one of the ten questions um tell me about the the security of your salvation

[00:40:21] and how if you were to die right now that you would get the very best your religion has to offer is that something

[00:40:27] you have and let the person tell you about how they’re in doubt how they’re trying their best which trying is an

[00:40:34] admission of failure because you don’t try to climb a mountain you climb a mountain you don’t use the word try or

[00:40:39] doing your best is admirable but it’s not what is required well then you can

[00:40:44] turn the table and say wait a minute you want me to trade in my security of salvation that i can know i have eternal

[00:40:50] life for something that you don’t even know and you’re striving for but you don’t think you qualify for right now i

[00:40:56] think that it’s the old proverbial you know if you were to die right now you know what would you say to get you know

[00:41:02] to get into heaven that was used i think by bill bright many years ago but it’s a great question because it really gets to

[00:41:09] the heart of the gospel and how does a person qualify for heaven on

[00:41:14] christianity the answer is quite simple it’s through a relationship with jesus by by belief acts 16 31 believe on the lord jesus and

[00:41:22] you will be saved done deal believe in your heart and confess with your mouth romans 10 9-10 the bible is so

[00:41:28] straightforward on what is done jesus paid it all we receive the benefit of

[00:41:34] that so that would be the one question i would ask is tell me about where you know you’re going to head to in the next

[00:41:40] life yeah that’s fantastic um so you know um when when people have

[00:41:47] and this just happened to me i was at a homeschool convention and a couple came up to me and said we really need to

[00:41:52] learn about mormonism we have mormon neighbors we don’t know how to best witness to them what do we do and um what what advice would you give

[00:41:59] somebody who’s you know they’re not an expert they don’t know uh huh i mean your resources here are phenomenal um

[00:42:05] the references to kimball and what he wrote um and i thought it was so funny how you you actually pass out a book

[00:42:12] written by a mormon at events and then people are interested in them because it’s it’s written by a

[00:42:18] mormon yeah that’s a great uh a great strategy there but for the average layperson who maybe isn’t an

[00:42:24] expert on mormonism and yet they have mormon neighbors or whatever what would you recommend the approach be in that

[00:42:30] regard um other than getting this great book but yeah uh well i don’t think kevin you’re going to

[00:42:36] be an expert overnight it’s going to take time i think you’re going to need to do research our website has lots of

[00:42:41] articles we have a podcast that we do as well since 2011 we’ve done over 3 000

[00:42:47] podcasts monday through friday for 15 minutes we have an index if you go to mrm.org podcast and all the different

[00:42:54] topics but i mean some people aren’t going to have limited uh interest to get too deep this book that i just wrote i

[00:43:01] think might be the best book if somebody doesn’t have a lot of information but at least wanting to know what it is

[00:43:07] that latter-day saints believe this has enough there to tell you a little bit about what they believe i’ll give you

[00:43:13] kind of the idea of where they’re at and then how can we share christianity but

[00:43:18] that appendix in the back i think is so valuable because what that appendix is going to do is when you hear these words like you

[00:43:25] did well you know i believe in jesus and i believe i’m not it’s not by works and so on and so forth well then you can ask

[00:43:33] the intelligent questions well let me just get this straight don’t you believe the bible is true as far as it’s translated correctly when that is what

[00:43:40] mormonism teaches from article 8 written by joseph smith uh and well yeah you know and then you and that’s my first

[00:43:46] two chapters and so i think if you can learn what it is that you believe christians need to know what they

[00:43:52] believe first they need to know the genuine before you can start looking at counterfeits but we do need to know what

[00:43:57] the counterfeits also look like that’s going to help us be able to be more effective in the uh witness we hope to

[00:44:04] be yeah i love that combination in your book too because really when a when a person reads your book they’re not just

[00:44:10] learning about mormonism they’re learning about christianity they’re learning what they believe and that’s phenomenal um

[00:44:16] and then um is mormonism in your perspective um are there big changes happening in the mormon church is is

[00:44:22] mormonism growing is it shrinking is uh what’s what’s going on um you know

[00:44:27] in a broader broader perspective with the mormon religion covet hurt them very badly and uh they were closed down

[00:44:34] almost all of the different congregations called wards at their chapels uh their buildings that

[00:44:40] they would worship on sunday uh were not open for business if so to speak for most of 2020 a lot of latter-day saints

[00:44:47] stopped attending church they stopped attending and not doing anything with the church and uh so uh even driving by

[00:44:55] some of the wards in my area i live in utah they’re not as full as they used to

[00:45:00] be i mean we’re talking three quarters at the most full compared to what uh used to be so i think that’s hurt them

[00:45:06] they’re at their slowest growth right now two years ago they only grew by a hundred thousand that was certainly coveted but even this last year they

[00:45:12] grew by 180 000 it’s a very small percentage if they’re 16 million and i don’t think that number is accurate they

[00:45:19] uh some have uh said that maybe a quarter of all latter-day saints are active in going to the temple like

[00:45:26] they’re supposed to by getting their temple recommend i mean that we’re talking four million maybe and and that and only less than

[00:45:33] half actually live in the united states so uh i think the religion is in trouble uh the progressives are really trying

[00:45:40] hard to get the church to change this idea about some of those political issues as i was mentioning with

[00:45:45] homosexuality with with the feminism right now they have old guard in there

[00:45:51] they the top three leaders uh um are are all over 90 and so

[00:45:57] they have their ways but then some are wondering some of the younger guys coming along when i say younger they’re in their 80s so that’s young

[00:46:04] and it’s all based on seniority so when when nelson at 97 dies the next guy

[00:46:09] comes in is oaks i think he’s 91 or 92 or something like that and so these guys are going to start dying

[00:46:16] what are the younger leaders going to start doing some have speculated they might make some changes as they did in

[00:46:21] 1978 they allowed blacks to hold the priesthood they held out throughout the civil rights movement until 1978 when

[00:46:28] they did allow blacks to hold that priesthood and and uh and so some have

[00:46:33] said there could be changes but if you’re asking me i don’t see anything in the in the in the um

[00:46:40] uh in the upcoming years maybe in the far horizon but i i i don’t i don’t see

[00:46:45] any indication of that any indication of of them changing the

[00:46:50] way that they do things as far as women and homosexuality and and other major changes that very much right now

[00:46:58] is very much a status quo even though nelson does say a lot of things in the mormon issue

[00:47:04] uh 2018 where you’re not supposed to use the word mormon anymore uh i mean generally um they’re not making a

[00:47:12] lot of changes gotcha well um well we’ll continue to pray for

[00:47:17] for uh the church of jesus christ of latter-day saints and uh and for mormons in general and and uh it’s a big ministry here in san

[00:47:23] diego for sure i mean there’s a lot of opportunities to witness to people as as you know and uh and of course utah is

[00:47:29] huge um for those of you listening again um my guest today was eric johnson

[00:47:35] introducing christianity to mormons fantastic book i highly recommend you get it pick it up and um

[00:47:41] mrm that stands for mormon research ministry right now mormonism research ministry mrm.org okay fantastic and then also

[00:47:49] introducing christianity.com for those of you who have um friends or relatives you’d like to you know

[00:47:56] start start having that conversation and uh that’s a really good place to start so uh eric i just want to say thanks a

[00:48:01] lot for being on the program today and uh oh i had one last question sorry before i let you go um

[00:48:08] so you do kids can go on trips to utah is that correct and do uh ministry to mormons

[00:48:13] with you well um christian i did with the school that you’re an administrator at they came

[00:48:19] this past uh um uh at easter time we actually had them doing some different things we handed out 200 flyers in a

[00:48:26] community up in the mountains uh 200 flyers can you imagine right the week before easter inviting people the church

[00:48:34] that sunday the following sunday on easter eight of the families came to

[00:48:39] church based on the flyers that our kids handed out and and one person came up to the pastor and said nobody’s ever

[00:48:45] invited me to church before and i i decided to come so eight that’s that’s a huge if you could get that kind of

[00:48:51] percentage everybody be knocking on doors so i don’t have a program per se but yeah we certainly welcome uh youth

[00:48:58] groups uh people who want to organize those i have some contacts if somebody wanted to contact me who would like to

[00:49:05] to come and bring a group for a week or however long it is that’s wonderful okay well thank you so

[00:49:11] much uh for everything you’re doing um what a blessing and uh praise god so

[00:49:17] thank you eric thanks for having me on kevin absolutely okay man well we’ll be in touch soon for those of you listening

[00:49:23] uh educate4life.org is my website all kinds of resources on there that you can use to help establish a stronger faith

[00:49:30] for yourself or your family and uh thanks for being here we’ll be uh again next week we’ll have another guest and

[00:49:36] we’ve got all kinds of amazing shows coming up so glad you could join us and i hope you have a fantastic day we’ll

[00:49:42] see you next time