Modern Day Exorcism with Vincent Lampert

[00:00:00] okay thanks for being here this evening uh my name is Kevin Conover and we are

[00:00:05] on the radio down here in Southern California FM 106.1 in North County and we’re also on

[00:00:11] kpra 1210 a.m. uh the largest Christian radio station down here in Southern California and of course we’re podcast

[00:00:17] all over the place and um we’ve got hundreds and hundreds of interviews up on educate forlife.org if you want more

[00:00:24] resources and you’re looking for more interviews with people from all types of

[00:00:30] um life experience uh it’s a fantastic place to look at the creation Evolution

[00:00:35] discussion the issue over um the pro-life movement what’s happening currently school choice and vouchers and

[00:00:43] everything that you can possibly imagine that’s happening in our culture um there are wonderful interviews with experts

[00:00:48] who love God who love Jesus and are um are ministering in various ways around

[00:00:54] the world so uh feel free to check that out educate forlife.org and I’m your host Kevin Conover our guest this

[00:01:00] evening is um I’ve never had an interview with uh somebody whose Ministry is in this area but Vincent

[00:01:07] Lampert is the pastor of St Michael and St Peter parishes in Brookville Indiana

[00:01:12] in 2005 he was appointed The Exorcist for the arch dicese of Indianapolis at the time there were only 12 priests in

[00:01:19] America who were exorcists currently there are over a hundred he received his training in Rome and he’s a member of

[00:01:25] the International Association of exorcists he is also the author of Exorcist

[00:01:30] the battle against Satan and his demons father Vincent thanks for being here this evening yes Kevin it’s good to be

[00:01:37] with you yeah you know um it’s funny I saw I saw an article on you um on uh I

[00:01:44] believe it was uh Glenn Beck site and uh I thought oh man that that sounds really

[00:01:49] interesting and what caught my eye was the rise in um exorcisms that you

[00:01:55] mentioned and I thought because I had had just an experence just recently I’m a I’m a high school

[00:02:03] Bible teacher and I had had an experience with somebody who called me up and said Mr con we’re having trouble

[00:02:08] with a family member and I need advice I need some guidance I’m not sure what to do and I’ve seen this a variety of times

[00:02:15] now where um families are struggling um and there seems to be a connection

[00:02:21] between a drug abuse and um what looks like demonic activity and um I was

[00:02:28] curious I really wanted to know about this because I think is really relevant to us as Christians is uh what what is

[00:02:33] going on in the spiritual world and also how the spiritual World Works um because a lot of people I think um don’t know

[00:02:39] and don’t know what they’re engaging in when they begin to entertain uh certain activities is there a connection between

[00:02:46] drug use and demonic activity absolutely you know many of the drugs before they reach the market in

[00:02:53] the United States go through Satanic rituals they’re actually commended to

[00:02:58] Satan in special rituals that are performed and then when people consume

[00:03:03] these they kind of enter deeper into the world of Darkness Satan’s deception so

[00:03:09] there very much is a correlation between drug abuse and a rise in demonic

[00:03:16] activity so I’m really curious about the I mean we’re just going to hop right into here to the deep end um I’m really

[00:03:23] curious about the metaphysics of this um you know I’ve had people talk to me about this they’ll say something like

[00:03:29] well is it mental illness I I mean I know somebody who has schizophrenia and

[00:03:34] you know one time I asked somebody is is schizophrenia demonic or what what is going on there and my real my my

[00:03:41] question pertains to what is happening spiritually when a person engages in U

[00:03:48] you know drug use or whatever it be what’s going on with that demonic entity

[00:03:54] and the person’s spirit that causes them to you know act so crazy what’s the metaphysic behind that I would say first

[00:04:02] of all that Faith seems to be in decline in the lives of many people especially in the Western World Christianity built

[00:04:09] western civilization and yet there’s a lot of people today who even though they grew up in a traditional Christian Home

[00:04:16] may be turning their backs on their faith and they’re turning to pre Christian uh religious Traditions that

[00:04:24] may have some connection with the Demonic world you know the devil doesn’t really care if somebody is doing

[00:04:29] something either directly meaning they know it’s wrong it goes against God but they do it anyway indirectly because

[00:04:36] they think it’s fun and entertaining but they may not fully understand the gravity of the situation they may be

[00:04:42] putting themselves into so this whole notion of a rise in demonic activity has

[00:04:48] to do with the decline of Faith especially across the country yeah that’s so interesting um I

[00:04:55] mean we saw it with I believe they put a what was it a bamet statue up in uh

[00:05:01] Illinois in the capital is that right they did and you know even many

[00:05:06] hospitals today when you go in if you want to check your religious affiliation you can actually check Satanism as your

[00:05:14] religion yeah and I I know that um every year I have my students go and interview somebody from another religion and there

[00:05:22] are all kinds of uh covens and Witchcraft uh all over San Diego as well

[00:05:27] as I I know around the rest of the country in the world but um and so it definitely seems to have become more

[00:05:33] acceptable I had a student of mine said he went to a concert he goes to UCLA he said he went to a concert and at the

[00:05:39] concert um it was an open a uh concert he said literally there was a giant

[00:05:45] statue that everybody was like praising and he’s a Christian kid and he just had

[00:05:51] this you know kind of um Epiphany like what is happening right now and it kind

[00:05:56] of um freaked him out he actually turned to the guy next to him and he said hey um doesn’t this seem weird to you what

[00:06:02] we’re doing right now CU it was basically idolatry it was worshiping some some statue um and these are a

[00:06:08] bunch of college kids and the the other kid didn’t even Flinch it didn’t even um

[00:06:13] phase him and he just said I got to get out of here and he you know he left thank God but but um there does seem to

[00:06:20] be this incredible acceptance of it um and it’s something you hear about in other countries I’ve had missionary

[00:06:26] friends who have said this stuff is very prevalent in other countries um I had a

[00:06:31] pastor in um Africa who who talked about the the witch doctor and his his uh community and everything um but so does

[00:06:39] that mean what does that mean for uh America and our communities and our

[00:06:46] families when it comes to this acceptance do you expect that we’re

[00:06:51] going to continue to see a rise in um demonic activity in people’s families

[00:06:57] and lives yeah absolutely influence yeah absolutely because you know I think it’s

[00:07:04] the failure to understand some very basic biblical premises so you talk about idolatry it’s a violation of the

[00:07:10] first commandment for God says I am the Lord your God you shall not have strange Gods before me and often times people

[00:07:17] are looking for a substitute for God think of the ancient Israelites on their way to the promised land when Moses is

[00:07:24] up on Mount Si receiving the Ten Commandments he comes back and what does he find them doing they’re worshiping

[00:07:30] the golden calf they’re choosing to worship something of their own creation rather than the uncreated God and that

[00:07:37] premise of Turning Away From God is right there at the be beginning of the Bible in the Book of Genesis when the

[00:07:43] serpent uh convinces Adam and Eve that they don’t need God that they can be God themselves you know Satan wanted to take

[00:07:51] the place of God and he tries to tempt us to take the place of God as well there are a lot of people today that I

[00:07:57] believe live by three guiding principles number one you may do whatever you wish

[00:08:02] number two no one has the right to command you and number three you are the god of yourself and this Viewpoint

[00:08:09] leaves no room for God and then the devil can use that as an opportunity to

[00:08:14] try to enter into a person’s life whenever I work with somebody in the ministry of exorcism the number one

[00:08:21] question that I want to answer is this what was the entry point what did the person do either directly or indirectly

[00:08:28] that permitted the de to afflict them because for the most part you know Christians don’t have to worry about the

[00:08:34] devil you know if you’re going to church you’re reading your Bible and you’re praying the devil’s already on the Run

[00:08:40] we don’t have to do anything extraordinary to defeat the Devil it’s the very ordinary aspects of our

[00:08:46] Christian faith but sadly a lot of people today just don’t know those Basics and because they don’t know the

[00:08:52] basics they can be fallen into the traps that the devil is setting for people to fall into

[00:08:59] that’s uh that’s great um you know I had a student who told I I had a Exorcist

[00:09:06] like experience when I was younger maybe 20 years ago 25 years ago with a student in our church youth group and I actually

[00:09:13] asked him that exact question that you just said which was when did this uh demon have influ start to have influence

[00:09:19] over you and he said to me that when he was younger he was very scared he was in

[00:09:25] Europe the drinking age was very Y young he said and he would be left alone for

[00:09:30] long periods of time his parents would just let him go do whatever he wanted he was only like 14 years old and he said

[00:09:36] that um he was so scared that he would he figured out if he made himself very angry people would be afraid of him and

[00:09:43] he said one time when he was doing this a voice said to him I can help you if you let me in and he said yes come in

[00:09:52] and he said that was the moment at which stuff started to happen that he he started to lose control over his life

[00:09:58] meaning uh he had a harder time reading the Bible um the pages the the the word is

[00:10:05] it was to me it was just like out of a movie the the words would become blurred in the Bible he couldn’t hear things

[00:10:11] that people were saying if they began to talk about God he would start to lose his breath if he tried to pray just a

[00:10:17] lot of really uh crazy things and that really um opened my mind to the impact

[00:10:23] of the Demonic World um is that the kind of stuff that you see a lot where

[00:10:28] somebody bu what are other when you said entry points what are other entry points where a person is this completely um

[00:10:36] overt or is this something that can passive passively happen that somebody needs to watch out for yeah it can be

[00:10:42] overt meaning somebody does something directly opposed to the faith and then

[00:10:49] you know if they’re just thinking that it’s something fun and entertaining that can also be an entry point for the

[00:10:55] person to deal with the Demonic you know some of the main ways that I see people open up a doorway to the Demonic or ties

[00:11:03] to the occult you know the word occult comes from the the Latin word ultis and

[00:11:08] it means secret or hidden and it focuses on knowledge of the Paranormal now there’s a power behind the world of the

[00:11:15] occult but that power comes from the Devil Himself so the devil is the one

[00:11:20] who provides the power to a lot of these things whether it’s people playing with a Ouija board going to see a psychic or

[00:11:26] a medium using a pendulum or C Crystal practicing magic and so on the power

[00:11:33] behind all of this is the power of the Devil Himself one can be cursed I think

[00:11:39] curses are only effective if someone is weak in their faith we can’t control what another person is doing but as St

[00:11:46] Paul says if we’re putting on the armor of Christ someone may be trying to curse us but it will have no impact on us

[00:11:53] onever other entry points would be I call it the entertainment industry there’s a lot of people today that are

[00:12:00] fascinated by things like Halloween certain types of music uh video games

[00:12:06] certain types of literature again all of these things create a fascination with the devil in the world of the Demonic

[00:12:14] and when people get engaged in these things again they can be opening themselves up to the forces of evil and

[00:12:20] the devil doesn’t even care like playing with lu Ouija board if a person thinks it’s just fun and entertaining the

[00:12:26] devil’s still going to use that as an opportunity try to get a foothold into that person’s life because ultimately

[00:12:33] you know the devil what he wants to do is to get us to buy into his lives the deception so like that young boy you

[00:12:39] were talking about he bought into the lie that deception led to division he

[00:12:44] found himself broken and then that division can lead to Diversion we look

[00:12:50] for something that we think is going to put the pieces of our lives back together but if it’s not God it will

[00:12:56] always leave us even more broken and fractured think of a lot of addictive behavior today that people give into the

[00:13:02] alcohol or the drugs they think it’s going to fill this emptiness in their hearts but I think of that great line

[00:13:08] from St Augustine who lived the end of the fifth early sixth centuries when he said you have created us for yourself oh

[00:13:16] Lord and our hearts are restless until they rest in you so nothing can satisfy

[00:13:22] the deepest longings of the human heart but God alone but people will try to find a substitute for God and then that

[00:13:29] diversion will lead to discouragement people will lose all sense of hope meaning or purpose or Direction in their

[00:13:36] life so again deception leads to division which leads to Diversion which

[00:13:42] leads to discouragement and that discouragement When we arrive there there’s a Crossroads one pathway leads

[00:13:50] to death always spiritual the complete rejection of God think of the growing

[00:13:55] trend of Atheism in society sometimes it lead to a physical death the growing

[00:14:01] trend of uh suicide or even euthanasia where people believe that my life’s no

[00:14:07] longer worth living there’s even a young lady I saw the other day in the Netherlands who was put to death at the

[00:14:13] age of 29 simply because she said she was depressed now we’re Christians we people

[00:14:18] of a hope the other pathway leads to discipleship we have a Reawakening and

[00:14:25] we recognize that we need God into our in our lives and we by God back

[00:14:31] in so um that’s uh wonderful hope for somebody struggling with this and that’s

[00:14:38] so um if there’s a person and they’re dealing with this you know

[00:14:44] uh it’s interesting to me because what an and you can explain this you know why

[00:14:50] you chose to become an exorcist and you said that there are more and more people I guess the question is is what is the

[00:14:57] role of an exorcist as this you know as they’re participating in um

[00:15:03] ENT fighting demonic spirits are they a um intermediary in the sense that they

[00:15:10] are appealing to God on behalf of this person and trying to separate this

[00:15:16] demonic influence because the person is so far beyond the pale that they can no longer um even if they wanted to make

[00:15:23] the decision for Christ is that what’s going on there yeah it goes back to that young boy you were talking about how he

[00:15:30] tries to pray but wasn’t even able to articulate the words try to read the Bible but the pages would blur so there

[00:15:37] are people that need help getting out of the Trap Of Satan probably one of the

[00:15:43] best ways to understand exorcism is that I want to help people to make God more

[00:15:50] real in their lives as opposed to the devil because there’s a lot of people

[00:15:55] that they focus on the devil but really the ministry of exorcism is focused on

[00:16:01] the power of God you think of the power of the name of Jesus Christ when demons

[00:16:06] will flee so again my overall goal would be to make God more real in their lives

[00:16:13] as opposed to the devil that’s interesting to make God more real um can you break that down for

[00:16:21] us what does that mean if when you say to make God more real you know one of the things I always say that makes

[00:16:27] Christianity unique in world religions is that Christianity is not about our search for God it’s

[00:16:36] about God’s search for us God always makes the first move think of Adam and

[00:16:42] Eve in the garden after they sinned they went and hid God moves through the

[00:16:47] garden and calls out Adam where are you now God knew where he was but he’s

[00:16:52] giving Adam an opportunity to repent to acknowledge that he is in a state of sin

[00:16:59] but Adam doesn’t respond he blame he plays the blame game you know the woman

[00:17:05] you put here she did Eve what have you done well the serpent made me do it you

[00:17:10] know the devil can’t make us do anything the devil can propose but he cannot

[00:17:16] impose but then God right after the sin he expels Adam and Eve from the garden

[00:17:22] of paradise and I would suggest that that’s an act of Mercy because if Adam and Eve had approached the Tree of Life

[00:17:30] in the state of original sin there would have been no hope for Redemption God sends them out into the desert Into the

[00:17:37] Wilderness and then God immediately puts a plan into place to go in search for

[00:17:42] lost humanity and that comes to fulfillment with the coming of Jesus you

[00:17:49] know there in the gospels Jesus is baptized and then the spirit descends upon him and then he’s driven into the

[00:17:56] desert why does he go into the desert I would suggest because he’s going to look

[00:18:01] for lost Humanity but he first has to contend with the one who caused the fall

[00:18:06] of humanity namely the devil so Jesus faces his own Temptation he overcomes

[00:18:12] that Temptation and then I believe his entire public Ministry is about looking for lost Humanity I love the story of

[00:18:20] the Good Shepherd who leaves the 99 and goes in search of the lost one who is the lost one lost Humanity the woman

[00:18:27] with 10 coins and loses one who is that lost one lost Humanity now many of us

[00:18:34] might say well one out of 100 99% is pretty good or if I have 10 coins I lose

[00:18:40] one 90% is pretty good but God wants 100% And that’s because every person

[00:18:47] matters in the eyes of God because each and every person reflects the Divine

[00:18:52] image we’re all created in in the image and likeness of God therefore God is

[00:18:57] always searching for us whenever we are lost one of my great lines in the Bible

[00:19:03] comes from the book of Genesis When God says let there be light the ministry of

[00:19:09] exorcism really is turning on the light of Jesus Christ in the lives of people

[00:19:15] who have fallen into the darkness of Satan and his

[00:19:20] lives amen so when you’re saying make God re more real than the devil um

[00:19:26] obviously God is as real as can be be um so the question is is is that because

[00:19:32] they are unaware of his love his power his compassion towards them is that what

[00:19:37] you’re saying making them making them aware of that absolutely I think a lot of people fail to understand God’s love

[00:19:44] and mercy his unconditional love for us I think there’s a lot of people that believe that somehow God and the devil

[00:19:50] are on the same plane field like they’re equal you know in power and strength if

[00:19:56] you will but that’s a sense of dualism people need to realize that you know

[00:20:02] Satan is still a creature very intellectual but he’s still a creature and no creature can be on the same

[00:20:09] playing field as God the Creator you know only God is Supernatural the word

[00:20:15] Supernatural means to be outside of Nature and Only God is outside of nature

[00:20:20] because God has created everything the very first 10 words in the Book of Genesis in the beginning God created the

[00:20:27] heavens and the Earth what does that tell us about God in the beginning God creates time the heavens God creates

[00:20:34] space the Earth God creates matter so God is creator of time space and matter

[00:20:41] which means god is outside of time space and matter now I can say that but it

[00:20:46] gives me a headache TR to think about because now we live in this reality so

[00:20:53] it’s what we know so only God is Supernatural outside of nature

[00:20:59] these Angelic creatures that are Fallen these demons Satan and these other evil spirits we would say they’re pratal

[00:21:07] meaning they are above our understanding of nature it’s due to their highly intellectual nature that’s why when

[00:21:14] demons manifest they can do things that we might say well that’s not humanly possible whether it’s bodily

[00:21:20] contortions whether it’s um you know levitation and all of these things

[00:21:26] demons are capable of doing this because again they’re beyond our understanding

[00:21:32] of the natural order um so you know you you trained in

[00:21:38] Rome to become an exorcist um what what does it mean to be trained to become an

[00:21:43] exorcist what is the what is the training that that takes is this is this something that the average Christian could participate in or is this

[00:21:49] something that it’s not it’s not safe for them to be involved in that what what uh explain that to us I think the

[00:21:57] key ingredient to be involved in Deliverance Ministry in exorcism

[00:22:03] Ministry is to be a man or woman of faith I think it means to be you know a

[00:22:10] Godly Man a Godly woman because ultimately I mean I don’t have any special powers in abilities if people

[00:22:16] are relying on me we’re all in trouble but if people are relying on the power and the authority of Jesus Christ in his

[00:22:22] name that is present in and through his ministers that’s the right mentality to

[00:22:27] have I think encountered a lot of people today because faith is in Decline they view The Exorcist as a

[00:22:34] magician they think that I have special talents or abilities and I can make their problems go away I’ve even had

[00:22:41] people tell me I want the devil to be gone but I want nothing to do with god

[00:22:46] oh that’s going to be tough that’s going to be tough absolutely because either we

[00:22:51] are in a relationship with God or we are in a relationship with the devil to me there’s no in between

[00:22:59] and we could be in a relationship with one or the other and maybe not be fully aware of it and that’s the importance of

[00:23:06] you know people being catechized and learning their faith and just having a better understanding of their own life

[00:23:12] situation I think that’s what I mean too about about making God more real I think there’s a really a lot of

[00:23:19] people today that just do not have an image of God and you know they might say they

[00:23:25] believe in God but if you ask them but what does that mean they really can’t explain it but again I think people need

[00:23:32] to fully understand the importance of faith and how it protects and safeguards

[00:23:39] them from the Ws of the of the of the enemy of the devil yeah absolutely um when I was

[00:23:47] younger uh and this this this was no coincidence but I stumbled on a book um

[00:23:53] I wasn’t even looking for this book but it was called The Bondage breaker um I don’t know if you’ve heard of it or not

[00:23:58] have you heard of that book yes yeah and this kid in the youth group I I met him at the same time I happened to pull this

[00:24:05] book off a shelf and just started randomly reading it uh randomly right but um but uh it basically said

[00:24:13] reiterate these scriptures and have them repeat them after you and when I did this with this young man um he actually

[00:24:20] started his voice started dropping he couldn’t speak uh tears started coming

[00:24:25] he he was crying uh like Prof ly and

[00:24:31] um and I I was not sure what to do at that point because um he looked like he

[00:24:38] couldn’t breathe and uh so I was like whoa what is happening I had never experienced anything like that

[00:24:44] before and um is this the the kind of thing that you um experience in this

[00:24:49] process is this is this an ongoing process uh or is it something that

[00:24:55] happens quickly or is it just different depending on the situation it really is different depending on the

[00:25:02] person and the degree of evil they may be dealing with so my internship in Rome

[00:25:08] you know it’s easy to read books and understand what the church believes and teaches about the reality of the devil

[00:25:15] and his afflictions on people so over the three months that I lived in Rome back in 2006 the priest who trained me

[00:25:23] allowed me to sit in on 40 exorcisms that he performed during that time time

[00:25:29] and that allowed me to witness firsthand the church’s Ministry to those who were

[00:25:34] up against the forces of evil and who were trying to really find a solution

[00:25:40] for that and invite God more deeply into their lives but you know I’ve done this

[00:25:46] ministry now for n for the past 19 years I’ve done exorcisms over the course of a

[00:25:52] year before the person is fully liberated I’ve done exorcisms where 45

[00:25:58] minutes later after praying the person is liberated so it really each case

[00:26:04] really is different this because of all the personal circumstances of the person

[00:26:11] and the degree of the Demonic Affliction they may be suffering from um so I I took a class in my

[00:26:20] master’s program too it was called a demonology um studying what what was going on there metaphysically and so

[00:26:26] forth and my professor at the time said that he had had a really bad experience one time because people would

[00:26:32] call the University and he was referred to even though he wasn’t technically you know he he wasn’t an exorcist or

[00:26:37] anything but because he taught the class and this was one of his Specialties he would go and he said one time he touched

[00:26:43] a person and he just completely froze and uh he said you have to be very

[00:26:49] careful because you know you’re dealing with P powerful spirits and it’s not something you want to treat lightly um

[00:26:56] Can can these can these demons um physically harm a person are you ever

[00:27:01] afraid for your own safety in in these kinds of situations you know I would first say

[00:27:07] that um demons don’t have a free reign to do whatever they want they’re still

[00:27:13] on God’s leash if you will Satan may have been cast out of heaven but he wasn’t cast out of creation so God can

[00:27:20] still use the devil for whatever greater purposes that he has if the devil had complete free reign the world may

[00:27:27] perhaps be more chaotic than it already is so demons can only do that which God

[00:27:33] permits now that might beg the question well why would God permit this but again

[00:27:39] that would be trying to understand the mind of God but ultimately for me

[00:27:44] anything that God permits ultimately is to bring us into a deeper

[00:27:50] understanding of what we were talking about earlier his unconditional love Mercy forgiveness again the notion that

[00:27:57] God is always looking for us because God loves us and I think that’s the bottom

[00:28:02] line in all of this you know you think of turning on the light and then you

[00:28:08] think of God the light think of saints you see a picture of a saint what’s around their head it’s a Halo they’re

[00:28:15] not radiating their Glory they’re radiating the glory of God and I think in the ministry of exorcism you have a

[00:28:22] you know a godly man or a god godly woman who’s radiating really the glory

[00:28:27] of God demons will always sleep I always say to people for example you know

[00:28:32] demons are like cockroaches you go into a room and there’s bugs and you turn on the light what do they do they SC for

[00:28:39] every cracking previs yeah an exorcism the church is turning on the light of

[00:28:44] Jesus Christ into the lives of these people and when that happens the demons will flee and that really is the casting

[00:28:51] out of the demons out of these people’s lives but again it isn’t enough just to

[00:28:57] have the demon gone God has to be invited in there in chapter 11 of Luke’s gospel it talks

[00:29:02] about how once the demon is passed out it comes back and finds the house Sweat clean meaning it’s gone that God hasn’t

[00:29:10] been invited in then it goes and finds seven other demons worse than itself and they go and take up residence in that

[00:29:16] person so that their situation is worse than it was before so again that notion

[00:29:23] yeah I would even say casting the the demon out is the easy part convincing a

[00:29:28] person to invite God in seems to be the more difficult part

[00:29:34] today yeah it’s so yeah so the people are not submitting their lives to Christ

[00:29:39] after they’ve gotten rid of demonic activity is what you’re saying yeah you know there’s even a strict protocol that

[00:29:46] it’s used in the Catholic Church a person needs to have some type of psychiatric evaluation they need to have

[00:29:52] a physical examination in many ways I’m trained to be a skeptic you know so I

[00:29:57] want to ask experts in the mental health field and in the medical field in your

[00:30:02] evaluation of this person is there anything about their condition that you can’t explain based on your own

[00:30:08] knowledge and understanding and training I would then do an intake questionnaire trying to determine what the entry point

[00:30:15] may have been and then I would look for four signs of possible demonic

[00:30:21] possession the ability to speak and understand languages otherwise unknown to the individual superhuman strength

[00:30:28] elevated perception a negative reaction to anything of a sacred nature these

[00:30:33] things could tell me that I’m no longer dealing with that person as an individual to now a demonic entity

[00:30:40] that’s treating that person’s body as if it were its own and then step five of

[00:30:46] the protocol the last one would be to help normalize the spiritual life of the person either to help bring them back to

[00:30:54] their faith or maybe bring them to Christ for the very first time

[00:30:59] okay that that was going to be one of my questions was because I I I had a situation where I thought a a person was

[00:31:06] being demonically influenced or whatever the case and it was a very quick interaction we were actually in a church

[00:31:13] and uh uh one of the pastors or Elders came by and he said they took the the

[00:31:19] guy away who was being very loud and I was we were talking some scripture and

[00:31:25] uh I said do you think that guy’s demonic influenced and he said uh no he

[00:31:30] said I don’t think so I think that’s a mental issue and I I didn’t know you

[00:31:36] know okay what is how do you tell between somebody who’s having a mental issue versus um being demonically

[00:31:42] influenced and my other question in that regard is is there ever overlap is there ever somebody who is both struggling

[00:31:50] mentally with mental illness as well as being demonically influenced you know I deal with people

[00:31:55] in the psychiatric world so the mental health profession and one of the ways that

[00:32:00] trying to understand is the Affliction due to a mental illness or due to

[00:32:06] demonic Affliction and this is the distinction that I’ve come based on my

[00:32:11] interactions with these experts in the mental health field if it’s something is

[00:32:17] interior meaning it’s originating from within themselves that’s probably a

[00:32:22] mental illness if it’s something exterior whereby they feel like they’re

[00:32:27] under Siege or under attack that may lead Credence to the fact that it may be

[00:32:32] something demonic and you’re right rarely is it a case 100% mental 100%

[00:32:38] demonic there can be some overlap for example did the person experience some

[00:32:44] type of a demonic episode which caused the mind to fracture as a way to try to

[00:32:49] comprehend what was taking place again when we have an encounter with an entity that’s

[00:32:56] preternatural again above our understanding of the natural order that

[00:33:01] can really I think cause the mind to to fracture or break in some ways just trying to grasp what is truly taking

[00:33:08] place in their life um I so I have one more question

[00:33:14] along these same lines so from a metaphysics perspective right we have a spirit and then we have a physical body

[00:33:21] and the spirit controls the physical body it’s what gives us our free will our freedom to choose right um

[00:33:28] so when you have a demonic entity who it’s a spirit without a body as as far as I understand it right and they’re

[00:33:34] trying to influence the physical body what is happening there is this where there’re there kind of like a car right

[00:33:41] you’re you’re you’re in a car somebody tries to carjack the car and they’re trying to drive the car and push you

[00:33:48] into the passenger seat is that what’s going on there from a metaphysics perspective I think that’s a good way to

[00:33:54] look at it you know from a Christian perspective what’s the greatest thing that God has done for us it’s the

[00:34:00] Incarnation God took on human form in the person of Jesus Christ the devil because he wishes to mimic God in every

[00:34:07] possible way believes that he takes on human form by possessing a human body

[00:34:13] but when the devil does that he treats the human person as something hideous or

[00:34:18] grotesque that’s where you see these manifestations the eyes rolled in the back of the head the growling the

[00:34:24] snarling the foaming at the mouth bodily contorsion and what not The Devil Makes

[00:34:29] a mockery of the human person because the devil believes that by afflicting the human person God’s greatest creation

[00:34:37] that he’s indirectly afflicting God himself but you know anytime somebody’s

[00:34:43] possessed all the actions of that body are now wholly defined by the demon if I’m working for John with John Doe for

[00:34:50] example and a demon manifest I would never say that John Doe did this or said

[00:34:56] that I would always say that’s what the demon did because when somebody’s possessed the demon will use the

[00:35:03] person’s eyes to see their mouth to speak their ears to hear and so on so

[00:35:08] again all the actions are now being Folly defined by the demon some people that I worked with have told me that

[00:35:15] once the Demonic takes over they’re aware of what’s going on but they’re powerless to stop any any of it it’s

[00:35:22] like they’re a spectator within their own body other people have told me that once the the manifestation

[00:35:28] begin they no longer have any recollection of what takes place afterwards so again each situation can

[00:35:35] be different you know even though exorcism prayers may need to be repeated there is some benefit that a

[00:35:42] person receives each and every time the prayers are prayed so they receive some

[00:35:47] spiritual benefit even if it doesn’t bring about total Liberation at that moment because ultimately God will

[00:35:55] decide the moment of liberation yeah it’s in God’s hands um well um I

[00:36:04] have a a friend here also listening Stan um and I wanted to give him a chance to ask a question um uh Stan go ahead and

[00:36:12] ask your question father

[00:36:18] Vincent Stan you there oh sorry okay here we go there we go greetings hi s

[00:36:27] hello hello father Vincent um hope you’re doing well today sound you look you look good you look

[00:36:33] like you’re doing well um so I recently met Kevin I’m an atheist we had a great

[00:36:40] conversation and I grew up Christian my whole life I’m about 40 years old now

[00:36:45] and about 10 years ago I deconstructed My Views and deconverted myself from uh

[00:36:51] the Christianity that I was raised with and I’m one of the very few in my family that have done that uh so I uh spoke to

[00:37:00] Kevin and he was able to get me into listen to this because we were kind of talking about this this same subject

[00:37:07] earlier yesterday I believe it was and I’ve got a question I’ve been listening

[00:37:12] intently this whole time I’ve got several questions but I’ll I’ll just go with this one because I know it looks

[00:37:18] like we’re getting a little short on time possibly um so earlier on and I’m not

[00:37:26] trying to you know we’re all we’re all buddies here right there you go way sow

[00:37:33] the pot or anything but you mentioned earlier uh when

[00:37:39] talking about the Garden of Eden that the story of Adam and Eve and The Serpent and everything which I have a

[00:37:45] thousand things to say about uh talk about regarding that but you said that

[00:37:51] the devil has this thing where he can propose but not impose

[00:37:58] but later on in the discussion you mentioned that you know this demonic

[00:38:04] possession the way it can work is kind of like uh could be total usage and manipulation of a human body by the

[00:38:12] Demonic Spirit which to me it seems very imposing and I was trying to mentally

[00:38:18] square that Circle I was digging back into my you know Christian gymnastic abilities that I

[00:38:26] that I hone for many years I’ve argued this point all over the world myself for

[00:38:31] for my own part but I’m wondering what’s what’s your how do you how do you

[00:38:37] uh Square those two things because to me saying that he can only propose but not

[00:38:42] impose but then he can also totally manipulate and control a person to where

[00:38:48] they’re not even aware of their actions they don’t remember them or they’re a back seat driver and just watching it

[00:38:53] and their bodies moving around under the influence of the demon how do those two

[00:39:01] square yeah so the devil cannot impose but only propose because we have free

[00:39:08] will so the devil can’t present something for us to make a choice for St

[00:39:14] Thomas aquinus would say that every choice we make in life we make it because we believe it to be a

[00:39:21] good he would he would say that nobody chooses evil because it’s evil but we

[00:39:26] are convinced that something is a good so go back to the story of Adam and Eve again so with the serpent in the garden

[00:39:34] The Proposal of the forbidden fruit the serpent didn’t take the fruit and cram it down he’s throat he presented it as

[00:39:41] something good even though the evil Act was in violation against God so again

[00:39:47] it’s that notion of free will but once we submit our free will to the devil and

[00:39:54] then allow his deception to be become a truth in our minds so he’s trying to

[00:40:00] objectify evil then we invite him in and when we give the devil you know consent

[00:40:07] to our Free Will that’s where the afflictions against us will begin so

[00:40:13] it’s that notion again of he cannot impose because we have free will but

[00:40:18] then he wants to convince us to use our Free Will in such a way to act against God and then once we step outside of the

[00:40:26] realm of God then the devil is permitted to afflict

[00:40:32] us yeah I this is an interesting thing too I I’ve thought a lot about this because all throughout the scripture

[00:40:37] there’s really interesting uh scriptures where the Bible says uh Jesus says um

[00:40:43] all things are possible for him who believes and then in Romans it says confess with your mouth that Jesus is

[00:40:48] Lord I always thought it was interesting that it says confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord um and it seems like

[00:40:56] there is a um and you’ll even hear uh people who are in the New Age realm

[00:41:01] they’ll say speak to the universe and you’ll get what you want it seems like God has a creation that is very um

[00:41:08] responsive to what we say and what we believe um and that that you’re and this

[00:41:16] is my understanding correct me uh father Vincent if it’s if if you have a different understanding but that um your

[00:41:23] words are actually contractual um to a large degree and so um you you make a contract with God when you verbally say

[00:41:31] things to him you also can make a contract against God or with the devil um giving him um uh freedom to do things

[00:41:39] that he wouldn’t otherwise be able to do um and this has has a lot to do with God’s decision to give us fre the

[00:41:45] freedom to choose who we engage with with who we associate with and and not even God forces himself on us uh is that

[00:41:53] what is that correct father Vincent yeah I think you’re right on target with that yeah yes Dan what do you what do you what do

[00:42:00] you think about that is that helpful or is that not answer your question um I mean I I see the logic I see the logic

[00:42:07] behind it I mean I still don’t necessarily well so if if I

[00:42:13] may if you if if we have time sure go ahead this kind of does lead into another question that I that I had

[00:42:20] because I have no I found no reason to believe in the very existence of demons or the

[00:42:28] themselves right me personally so one of the things that

[00:42:33] I’ve wondered is I I wrote it down I wrote a little note for here for just

[00:42:40] this occasion so uh earlier we were talking when you guys were talking about the

[00:42:47] exorcisms and the U demonic activity that you’ve seen father Vincent in your

[00:42:53] in your field you mentioned things like levitation contortion uh unusual speech things like that and I

[00:43:01] notated down here it’s it’s nothing we can’t see in the local circus pretty much this is all stuff that you the

[00:43:08] things that you described are things that are feasibly uh possible within the

[00:43:14] realm of of human capability physically mentally if there are

[00:43:22] extraordinary extraordinarily convincing tangible

[00:43:29] things events happening Behind These closed doors which uh behind which

[00:43:35] exorcisms occur why is this so hidden why is there

[00:43:40] no reliable tangible proof of the reality of these demonic entities and

[00:43:47] the procedures and and things that you all do to combat this

[00:43:55] Menace when you talking about tangible proof are you discussing whether or not things are videotaped and recorded that

[00:44:02] type of thing to give people the proof they’re looking for uh could be video or just having it

[00:44:09] done in public or uh medical records

[00:44:14] showing impossible or you know or miraculous things that wouldn’t be uh

[00:44:22] you know something to show that it’s beyond the mundane I would say I would say at least

[00:44:27] from the U procedures that I use the protocol that’s in place I would always

[00:44:33] begin by Consulting again those experts in the mental health and medical field I would even say that the church would do

[00:44:41] greater harm if it labels someone is being possessed and that label prevents

[00:44:46] the person from getting the true help that they need so again relying on these

[00:44:51] experts I mean I’m know I know a little bit but I want to rely on a psychiatrist

[00:44:56] for example tell me there’s something here that I can’t explain you know the church says I need

[00:45:02] to reach moral certitude meaning believing Beyond a doubt that the person in front of me truly is dealing with

[00:45:10] extraordinary demonic activity so there’s a very strict protocol and you’re right a lot of the symptoms that

[00:45:16] are seen in those who are possessed are seen in people that could be suffering from the mental health condition people

[00:45:22] with tette syndrome there can be you know audible outburst you know Behavior that’s you know seems

[00:45:29] rather erratic for example so again the church is looking for some

[00:45:36] explanation that’s outside of the mental health field a medical doctor would do a

[00:45:41] complete you know you know assessment of the person to make sure that they’re not dealing

[00:45:47] with some type of disease or other malady that they’re not on drugs and hallucinating so all of these things

[00:45:54] need to be dealt with you know from a Catholic perspective there is no such thing as an emergency

[00:46:02] exorcism you know again that’s the last place we get to every other possible

[00:46:09] explanation needs to be looked into so that the person truly gets the help that they need are they suffering spiritually

[00:46:16] are they suffering mentally are they suffering physically and then by talking

[00:46:21] with myself the medical doctor or the psychiatrist we’re trying to put our

[00:46:27] heads together if you will and decide what is this person dealing with and

[00:46:33] what’s the best approach to get them to help if they need I have a question along those same

[00:46:38] lines um and I know Stan we’ll still pursue your question there but um uh so

[00:46:45] have you ever had a psychiatrist who is not a believer I’m sure you work with psychiatrists who aren’t believers who

[00:46:51] come to you and go whoa um you know this is this is aive to me that there is

[00:46:58] something spiritual going on here even if they’re not a Believer have you ever had a situation like that where somebody

[00:47:04] is that kind of astonished by the behavior that they decide this is some this is this is spiritual I would say my

[00:47:11] experience is that a lot of people in the mental health field are are non-believers and that’s okay because

[00:47:17] I’m not trying to stack the deck in my favor I’m not looking for somebody who believes who will tell me what I want to

[00:47:23] hear ultimately I want to really hear a good mental assessment of what the

[00:47:29] person is dealing with so the beliefs of that person really are

[00:47:35] secondary but uh I’ve had psychiatrists who have chosen not to

[00:47:40] respond I don’t know if they encountered something that they couldn’t explain but they just told me that they weren’t

[00:47:46] going to pursue working with the person anymore and they would have no comment for

[00:47:52] me interesting yeah because I I’ve heard several stories of people who who who

[00:47:57] had you know pretty wild experiences and they ended up deciding um you know this is Way Beyond mental illness uh and I

[00:48:06] believe it’s very spiritual I I had a situation once where somebody um and I wasn’t sure what to think about this but

[00:48:13] uh I I knew somebody who was hearing voices and the voices were always

[00:48:19] negative they were always horrible voices horrible nothing positive very negative and um almost he almost

[00:48:27] um uh through driving almost killed people and uh he also would put bags

[00:48:34] over his head and do very strange things and say he was hearing voices and and uh

[00:48:41] I don’t know you know he he had he was diagnosed with a mental disorder but I I

[00:48:47] found it strange that everything was so horribly evil that was coming out of his

[00:48:54] mouth and his mind um and that there was no positive things about seeing you know

[00:48:59] I don’t know what like rainbows and unicorns or anything and there was no joy it was just

[00:49:05] incredibly uh just some of it was really seemed very very evil to me um what what

[00:49:12] is that all about is that is that related to demonic activity spiritual activity or what are your thoughts on

[00:49:18] that it could be or it could be you know in working with the person did they grow

[00:49:24] up in a very negative family a NE househ so was it something reinforced

[00:49:30] within their environment you know I believe that evil is personified in the devil and these

[00:49:36] other evil spirits but we should not be too quick to blame all evil on the devil

[00:49:42] the notion that the devil made me do it again is a bad statement in my mind it goes back to what we were talking about

[00:49:48] earlier the devil cannot force us to do anything he may propose something but again we have to make that choice but I

[00:49:56] would also want to know did somebody grow up in just a broken environment you

[00:50:01] know Brokenness is very common within many families dysfunction to me is the

[00:50:07] norm the question is is somebody dealing with their dysfunction or are they allowing it to control them so again in

[00:50:14] working with that person I would just want to know more about their environment than you know that they grow

[00:50:20] up in an abusive home their father was an alcoholic or beat them or always told them they were a loser they could never

[00:50:26] anything good so again I would try to really want to understand that situation

[00:50:32] and then that’s where like working with the mental health professional will come in you know again I can only tell people

[00:50:39] what I come to believe based on all the information the data that’s gathered I

[00:50:45] can’t tell people what they want to hear I remember talking with a man one time who believed that he was possessed and

[00:50:52] uh I worked with him even set him up with a psychiatrist in his area and

[00:50:58] uh told him it wasn’t demonic it was a psychiatric issue he needed to deal with

[00:51:04] he didn’t like my answer so he continued to search sadly you’re going to find somebody out

[00:51:10] there that’s going to believe what you have to say and usually they’re going to tell you what you want to hear based on money this man told me he called me a

[00:51:18] few months later and said that he found a professional Exorcist who told him he was possessed by five demons and charged

[00:51:24] him $1,500 each to get rid of him and the man was so broken and desperate that he actually he actually paid him so that

[00:51:32] is really what’s unfortunate too is that you get people that are feeding on

[00:51:38] people’s Brokenness just for the sake of a

[00:51:43] buck and and U Back to Stan’s question as far as you know um he’s he’s

[00:51:49] questioning from a secular perspective uh is if somebody were to sit in with

[00:51:56] you or you know if if this were to happen and they you mentioned people levitating and these sorts of things is

[00:52:02] that stuff that you’ve actually seen where you you’ve seen uh somebody actually levitate off the

[00:52:09] ground I would say I didn’t see them do it I saw the demon do it it goes back to again all the actions of the body once a

[00:52:17] person is possessed or being totally defined by the demon itself yeah and

[00:52:22] I’ve witnessed all these things over the 19 years that I’ve done this Ministry the church doesn’t record or broadcast

[00:52:30] these things to protect the identity of the individual so as not to make a spectacle of them you know what a person

[00:52:37] chooses to do afterwards that is up to them you know the movie The Exorcist that came out in

[00:52:44] 1973 was based on a story of a 14-year-old boy from Mount rineer

[00:52:49] Maryland the exorcism took place in St Louis but that man over the years would

[00:52:55] never speak about that ever again even people would ask him questions and I

[00:53:01] think Hollywood threw a lot of money at at his way and he simply shunned all of that and just would not speak of it

[00:53:07] anymore so to me it’s something very personal and what somebody wants to do

[00:53:13] with that is up to them again because ultimately a good way to look at it is when the church performs an exorcism we

[00:53:20] want to turn on the light of Christ there may be people that want to turn on the cameras if you will but that’s

[00:53:27] really not the light we’re looking for it’s really the Light of Christ really about bringing a person to Faith I think

[00:53:33] there’s a lot of people today that just have a again in my mind a very distorted image of God and because of that

[00:53:40] distorted image of God I think we have a lot of people questioning their faith and really asking the question what do I

[00:53:47] believe do I believe and you know even within Christianity we can argue amongst ourselves about you know who’s better

[00:53:55] I’m right you’re wrong and not that type of thing but at the end of the day I don’t think any of us get to say I have

[00:54:01] a bigger piece of God than you do because I Think We’re All God’s Children you know I’m I’m one of nine children

[00:54:06] but when I think of all these you know other Christian faith Traditions to me

[00:54:12] we’re like children of of the same family we have the same parent who is God but how we live out that

[00:54:19] relationship with God is different just like any child within a family will have

[00:54:25] a different relationship with their parent than their siblings will so again to me it’s not about competition it’s

[00:54:32] about recognizing that we’re all God’s children and sometimes some of God’s children are being Afflicted with evil

[00:54:39] in a very profound way in the ministry of exorcism is simply a way to reach out

[00:54:44] to them to give them pastoral care and guidance and to help bring them back

[00:54:49] into the fold of God if you will um father we’re almost out of here

[00:54:56] but I wanted to um ask you in closing if there’s a person listening and they’re

[00:55:02] struggling with what they believe is demonic influence in their own life or in a family member’s life what advice

[00:55:08] would you give them as far as what next step should they take in order to um begin to get healing uh from this I

[00:55:16] think the number one place that people should turn is to their own home Church

[00:55:22] to talk to their Pastor it’s like if we’re sick we’re going to reach reach out to our family doctor and have some

[00:55:29] type of evaluation then the family doctor May refer this that person to a

[00:55:34] specialist if you will because I think a lot of people that think they need to see an exorcist can have the majority of

[00:55:40] their issue resolved by going to talk to their Pastor who can listen to them who

[00:55:45] can pray with them and then give them that pastoral care and guidance that they need but I think a lot of people

[00:55:52] maybe they’re not really engaged with their home church maybe they don’t really pastor but this would be a good

[00:55:58] opportunity to go in and say hey this is who I am this is what I’m struggling with and I’m seeking your counil I will

[00:56:05] say that you know people if you if you tell your pastor that you’re dealing with the Demonic you’re probably not

[00:56:11] going to get a good response because some pastors simply don’t know how to deal with this it would be better off to

[00:56:17] say I’m suffering spiritually and this is what’s happening and I’m seeking your guidance when

[00:56:23] people self- diagnose and they go in and say hey I’m possessed I need an exorcism things usually don’t go well

[00:56:31] after that you know they’re not listened to doors closed phone calls not answered

[00:56:37] emails are ignored but again simply to go in and say I’m suffering spiritually

[00:56:43] and I’m seeking some pastoral care and guidance that’s wonderful well I I want

[00:56:49] to thank you so much for your time that this has been a really big blessing talking to you and uh very insightful so

[00:56:55] uh thank you so much for everything you do father Vincent all right Kevin thank you thank you Stan yeah and thanks Stan

[00:57:01] for being here too I’m sure we’ll have a great follow-up discussion later on so um it’s been a pleasure um being with

[00:57:08] both of you guys so uh God bless you and um for those of you listening thanks for being here we’ve got some great shows

[00:57:15] coming up down the road here too I hope you can join us and uh and I I just pray

[00:57:20] that God would bless your life so thanks again for being here and we’ll see you next time when you need tires or service

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