Pivot- How to Break Free From Grief, Heartbreak, Past Abuse & Resentment with Debbie Chavez

[00:00:00] Thanks for being here. You’re listening to Educate for Life with uh myself, Kevin Conover. My website’s

[00:00:06] educateforlife.org. And there are all kinds of resources on there. We have guests from all over the

[00:00:11] world that share their testimony of how God has ministered to them and then how God is using them to minister to people

[00:00:17] around the world. And we have a really important um topic we’re going to be covering this evening. Uh I’m everywhere

[00:00:24] I go, everybody I talk to um we’ve all faced some sort of trauma. Life has all kinds of difficulties in it. Um, some of

[00:00:31] it more severe than others and some of it harder to let go of. Um, stuff that just really sticks with you. It’s very

[00:00:37] difficult to move past and it just seems to keep coming back again and again and again and you just wonder, is this ever

[00:00:43] going to go away? You know, I’ve I’ve been to counseling myself and my wife and I have been to counseling. We’ve

[00:00:48] talked lots of about lots of different things that we’ve gone through and um sometimes you wonder, is there ever an

[00:00:54] end to the counseling? um am I ever going to find a point at which um this is not going to uh keep coming back? And

[00:01:02] so um to talk about that today, my guest is Debbie Chavez. She was a top-rated

[00:01:08] news anchor and talk show host in Washington State. Today she’s a pastor’s wife. She’s a podcaster, speaker, and

[00:01:14] she’s a head of a group called Squadron of Sisters, which is a ministry geared towards helping women navigate marriage

[00:01:20] relationships and to grow in faith and life. And uh Debbie, thank you so much for being with us today.

[00:01:25] Oh, thanks for having me. I love to encourage people. That’s my mission. I’m on a mission to encourage people and let

[00:01:33] others know that despite what happened to you in the past and I’ve been through a lot that I have joy, I have peace. I

[00:01:42] know how who I am as a child of God. And I can say that I’m actually flourishing

[00:01:48] despite uh being flattened by many curve balls that I did not expect in my life. So

[00:01:54] there is hope for you. That’s wonderful. I’m sure anybody that’s listening um is already feeling

[00:02:00] hopeful and uh sounds like you have the gift of encouragement which uh is really needed in our world because there is a

[00:02:07] lot of difficulties that people are going through. So tell us a little bit about that. tell us um some of the the

[00:02:13] things you’ve had to deal with um so that people know, you know, you’re speaking from experience and from your

[00:02:19] own uh difficulties. Yeah. Uh, and I’m sure some of my story bits and pieces anyway will probably uh

[00:02:25] unfortunately resonate with some of your your listeners, your viewers, because um some of my pieces are are common, but

[00:02:32] one of the things that happened to me that was um lifealtering was I endured

[00:02:38] about 10 to 12 years of sexual abuse as a child. Um, I won’t go into detail, but

[00:02:44] it was ritualistic sexual abuse that involved multiple people, including family members that should have

[00:02:50] protected me, but did not. Um, and so that really messed with me, as you can imagine. I was I felt so alone. I didn’t

[00:02:59] tell anyone, of course, cuz I don’t know, you know, as a child, I didn’t know what to do. Um, so I kept that

[00:03:05] secret forever or seemed like forever for decades. Um, but it shaped me because I felt alone, unloved, uncared

[00:03:13] for, all of the things. Um, that was not helpful when I first started dating

[00:03:18] because basically the first guy that showed me any attention, I was like, “Yay, I’ll just grab on. I’ve got a live

[00:03:25] one. I’ll just grab onto this and hold on to for your life.” Uh, and that did not go well. Um, I actually got

[00:03:32] pregnant. Uh, I had an abortion, which I wasn’t a believer at the time. I wasn’t

[00:03:37] brought up in a Christian household, but um looking back now, I mean, what a horrible decision was that? But that

[00:03:42] seemed like the right thing to do at the time. So, I had to work through that trauma.

[00:03:48] Fast forward, that guy broke up with me because apparently I wasn’t good enough for him. And so, then I married the next

[00:03:53] then I became a believer. I did become a believer, but I was a brand new believer

[00:03:58] and I didn’t really know what I had no good disciplehip. And so the first guy

[00:04:03] that showed me any attention and said he was a believer. I should have checked to see if there was dust on his Bible. Uh I

[00:04:09] was like, “Yay, someone wants to marry me that’s a believer. Good. I’ll marry this guy.” And so I did. Uh and he

[00:04:16] turned out to be a serial cheater. And I mean a serial cheater. Like everyone

[00:04:21] under the sun, women at church coming up to me saying, “Why is he hitting me on me?” And I’m like, “Oh my.” So I endured

[00:04:26] that for about 18 years. Had two children along the way. Um but uh after a while I was like I can’t do this

[00:04:33] anymore. Um I had grown in my faith to to some extent during that time. But

[00:04:38] man, if anyone listening has gone through that trauma of of their husband or wife cheating repeatedly. It is just

[00:04:47] it it leaves you so empty, so alone feeling like you’re just chained to a cement block being drugged under the

[00:04:53] water. And it’s like you can’t come up for air. And so I finally realized I I I

[00:04:58] can’t I’m I’m dying here. I’m I’m withering on the vine. I’ve got to I’ve got to do something. So I ended up divorcing him, which was also a fresh

[00:05:06] trauma. No one gets married thinking their family’s going to blow apart. So I had to deal with that. Okay, work through that grief. And then God blessed

[00:05:13] me with being married to a pastor. Uh I I married a wonderful man. I finally

[00:05:19] felt cherished and loved by a godly man. And so things were going pretty well for

[00:05:24] a very short time. And then one of my children made a really, really bad

[00:05:29] mistake at the tender age of 18, just turning 18. So to me, they’re still my baby. Um, and that child went to prison,

[00:05:37] which is devastating for a mother. Just I can’t even explain how devastating

[00:05:42] that was. So I had to work through that trauma. Um, but I had this wonderful man with me, which was the good news. And

[00:05:49] then fast forward to 2021, the height of the pandemic. Guess who COVID took out?

[00:05:56] Suddenly, unexpectedly, shockingly, my beloved husband gone in the blink of an

[00:06:01] eye. Not even able to vi visit him in the hospital because you couldn’t even go into the hospitals. And so, this

[00:06:07] wonderful man dies alone in the hospital. I can’t even see him, have any final words, nothing. It was just

[00:06:14] another one of those flattening moments where you just feel completely leveled

[00:06:20] and the grief was deep. Uh and yet I’m here to say that this and there were many other traumas in between but those

[00:06:26] are just that that’s the highlight reel of oh my goodness that that you know my story is that each and every time God

[00:06:33] taught me Debbie I’m with you. Don’t dwell on the past. I’m not done writing

[00:06:40] your story. We’re just turning to a new chapter and turn the page to a new chapter. I’m with you and I have

[00:06:47] something around the corner for you. And I learned to pivot. I honestly learned to pivot each and every time. Sometimes

[00:06:54] it was through the help of a godly friend coming alongside. Sometimes it was with a counselor. Sometimes I had to

[00:07:00] set boundaries with people who were really hurting me. And I learned to set boundaries for a time. But each time it

[00:07:06] was a decision to kind of pivot from the pain and take God’s hand and walk

[00:07:11] forward trusting that he does have a good plan and he does love his children. And I have joy today.

[00:07:18] That’s amazing. I am sure people ask you how are you still standing after going

[00:07:23] through that um much less the fact that you do have joy and um obviously um you

[00:07:30] have a lot of hope and so that’s really incredible um so you recently wrote this

[00:07:37] book pivot that’s what it’s called how to break free from grief heartbreak past abuse and resentment for those of you

[00:07:42] living uh listening debt chavez.com is her website and um you can pick up a

[00:07:47] copy of this book, but this book really um is all about that, about helping

[00:07:52] people get through that. And I’ve known people who have gone through things and uh they can’t seem to get past it,

[00:07:59] right? And were you ever at a point in your life, I mean, because you’re going through thing after thing after thing

[00:08:06] after thing. Um, was there a point where that you got to where all of a sudden

[00:08:12] you were able to navigate this well or was it a struggle for a while where you were experiencing going back reliving

[00:08:19] it? Um, how did you learn how to how to pivot? Yeah. And and that’s something God

[00:08:24] taught me um pretty early on is that if I dwell on the past and all the wounds

[00:08:30] and the hurts that I am going to sink into depression. I mean, it’s just a

[00:08:35] given. Um, in fact, about four months after my husband had passed away and I was deep in grief, I actually sensed God

[00:08:42] telling me through the Holy Spirit, “That’s enough. That’s enough. You’re about ready to slide off the cliff into

[00:08:48] a deep, dark clinical depression. You You got to stop now. We’ve grieved. We’ve grieved deeply. Now, it’s time to

[00:08:54] take my hand, turn the page. We’re going to walk into the future together.” And I’ve learned to do that. I’ve learned

[00:09:00] also that I need to stop talking about the past. You know, sometimes we have like this victim mentality, and it’s

[00:09:06] very subtle, but I’ve I I know I was guilty of this in the past where I would

[00:09:11] incessantly love to tell my story, my sob story of my childhood sexual abuse or my serial cheater husband to anyone

[00:09:18] who would listen. And I learned God gently showed me that really what I was doing is staying trapped. I was I I kept

[00:09:25] on He was trying to put the band-aid on the wound. And I kept on ripping off the bandi band-aid by talking about it incessantly with anyone who would

[00:09:31] listen. And you know why I did that? Because again this is a subconscious thing. It felt good to get the empathy.

[00:09:39] It felt good to get the compassion. It kind of became almost a drug of choice

[00:09:44] is like if I tell my story which is true and sad. I will get empathy. I will get

[00:09:49] compassion. And it kind of became a little bit not a not an addiction but but it was it was soothing to my soul.

[00:09:57] And yet it kept me stuck. It kept me stuck in this victim mentality and and

[00:10:03] stuck in resentment and hurt and insecurity and all this stuff. And God

[00:10:08] had to show me like, “No, stop talking about it. I talk about it now only because I’m sharing my story about how

[00:10:14] to get free, but I don’t go around telling my story. There are people in my circle of of acquaintances and such that

[00:10:20] don’t even know my story because I’m not going to let that define me anymore.” Wow. That’s really powerful. Um, there

[00:10:27] was two things you said there that I just thought were really interesting. You know, when you talk about the Holy Spirit, um, telling you it’s time to

[00:10:34] move on. It’s interesting because a lot of people that have experienced a lot of pain or very traumatic things, they

[00:10:40] would say, “This isn’t something I can choose. This is not something I can willingly do. You’re asking me to do

[00:10:47] something that’s not possible. It’s like telling me to fly or something.” Um, how would you respond to somebody who says,

[00:10:53] “This isn’t a choice I’m making.” I’ve learned to take captive every thought.

[00:10:59] I’ve learned to take captive every thought because I know the devil’s egging us all on to revisit all the

[00:11:04] wounds of the past. I mean, he would love to get that foothold, wouldn’t he? Like, let’s just dwell on that wound.

[00:11:09] Let’s dwell on that offense. Let’s dwell on that hurt. So, I’ve kind of come to realize that he This is what I do. Some

[00:11:15] people might think this is dorky, but I literally envision him sitting on my shoulder going blah blah blah blah blah.

[00:11:20] Think about this stuff. And I go, “Bam, get off my shoulder.” I mean, I I literally will do that as like a

[00:11:26] reminder like, “That’s right. I’m not going to listen to this voice anymore.” So, I catch myself when those thoughts

[00:11:31] start to creep in, the grief thoughts or the resentment thoughts or that past offense or that wound. I literally catch

[00:11:38] myself and say, “I’m not going there. I’m not taking the bait, Satan. I’m not doing that because your design here is

[00:11:44] to keep me oppressed, and I’m not doing that. I’m a child of God. God is the

[00:11:50] author of hope. I’m going to turn forward.” Lord, what do you have for me today? How can I be a blessing to

[00:11:55] someone today? What do you what is my purpose today in serving you? And I just align myself with that on purpose. But

[00:12:02] it really is taking captive every thought. So, uh you know that doesn’t seem

[00:12:07] intuitive, right? It’s intuitive. Well, if you study the word of God like you’ve

[00:12:12] been doing, then these are things you learn. But a person just living life out

[00:12:18] and about, uh this is not where they’re thinking like, man, I better stop thinking about this. Even if you

[00:12:23] sometimes hear um I’ve got to go to counseling, right? Well, in counseling a lot of times you go back to the trauma

[00:12:28] and you talk about the trauma. And so it almost seems like that’s the thing to do. I’ve got to go back to this. And

[00:12:35] then, you know, another thing you mentioned which I thought was interesting is you said that when you share your story, it

[00:12:41] almost was soothing to you because you got compassion from others. You got uh sympathy from others. And so somebody’s

[00:12:49] uh you know thinking to themselves, wait a second, you’re you’re kind of telling me to do the opposite of what it seems

[00:12:54] like the the advice I’ve been getting. Uh is don’t I need to go back and deal

[00:13:00] with my past? Um and isn’t it good that people are compassionate and that I’m

[00:13:05] feeling better by sharing what’s on my heart? Because a lot of people say we keep things bottled in and we don’t

[00:13:12] share them. Um I know I I I touched on a lot of things there, but Yeah,

[00:13:17] there is a time and a place to share it because you do need to process it and work through it. But I mean, if you’re

[00:13:22] still talking about this 10 years, 20 years later, incessantly, then it that’s a sign that you’re not moving on. You’re

[00:13:30] not allowing the Lord to to help you move forward, to pivot. Because does the Lord intend for you to stay stuck in

[00:13:36] that pain and that woundedness and that offense and that bitterness forever? No, he does not. A precious verse to me was

[00:13:42] Isaiah, it still is, but Isaiah 43:18 and 19 where God actually says, “Do not

[00:13:48] dwell on the past. Forget the former things.” He actually says, “Forget the former things. Do not dwell on the past.

[00:13:55] See, I am doing a new thing. Now it springs up. Do you not perceive it?” Well, we don’t perceive it because we’re

[00:14:00] like micro focused on like I’ve got to remember this offense. And sometimes it’s practical things like for for me,

[00:14:07] now this is just what God prompted me to do. I actually took down almost all the pictures I had of my husband when he

[00:14:13] passed away. About four months into that grief period, I felt like God said, “Every time you look at all these

[00:14:19] pictures around the house, it’s like tearing off the band-aid. Tearing off the band-aid. How are you going to move forward if you’re constantly surrounded

[00:14:26] by all these reminders?” And so for me, again, this was just what he told me to do. It’s like, “No, I need to put some

[00:14:32] of these pictures away because that chapter is done.” Unfortunately, I have

[00:14:37] to move forward. Well, I don’t have to move forward, but staying stuck sounds not so fun. Yeah. No, it doesn’t sound fun at all.

[00:14:44] And um so where do you draw the line between, okay, this is healthy because I

[00:14:51] do need to revisit this and you you just mentioned there’s a time and place to work through it. Yeah. Um what does it mean to work through it?

[00:14:59] And then how do you know when because you’ve said the Holy Spirit literally was telling you time to move

[00:15:05] on. Um, so how do you know when that moment is is there where you’ve done the

[00:15:10] work that’s necessary and now it’s time to move on? Yeah. And it’s probably going to be different for everyone, but for me, I I

[00:15:18] needed to talk about it for a little while with someone that would that would be compassionate because these things

[00:15:23] are grievous and they do hurt. And if you’re offended by someone and they did something sinful against you, you do

[00:15:28] need to process that. But at some point, especially if you’re in God’s word and

[00:15:34] you’re really filling yourself up with truth, you’re going to sense that, you know what? I I I believe that God has a

[00:15:41] a purpose for my life, and it isn’t to be stuck in depression and resentment.

[00:15:48] Um, I mean, Hebrews 12:15 talks about how the the bitter root will grow up and

[00:15:53] defile many. Well, I’ve noticed that there are some people in my life, I won’t name names in case they’re

[00:15:59] listening, uh that have not let go of bitterness, for instance, and it just they carry that with them for years. And

[00:16:06] you know what? They’re the most sourfaced people. I don’t enjoy being

[00:16:11] around them. Can I say that? Because it’s just like I they literally have a sour face and everything they say is

[00:16:17] kind of like blah like poison and because they keep on talking about the past. Well, that’s a sign. That’s a sign

[00:16:24] like okay does does that woman really feel happy and joy and peace and does

[00:16:30] she have purpose in her life? No. If you’re if you don’t feel after a period

[00:16:35] of maybe three or four or five months of processing actively the wound, the

[00:16:40] grief, whatever, if if at that point if you don’t have any sense of joy creeping

[00:16:46] back, any sense of purpose, it probably is time to start pivoting. For instance, when my son went to prison, devastated

[00:16:54] me. Just devastated me. I spent a couple months grieving and wrestling with why did this have to happen? And I I talked

[00:17:00] to a counselor like, you know, I did for like four or five months. And then I was like, wait a minute. Wait a minute. I

[00:17:06] feel like I’m stuck here. I feel stuck in pain. That can’t be God’s will. And

[00:17:11] so I sat with God and said, ‘Lord, what do I do with this? You You said in Romans 8:28 that you work all things

[00:17:17] together for good. what what is good about this? But when I sat with him and said, “What is the good?” Bing, he gave

[00:17:24] me this idea. How about if you become a jail chaplain, a prison chaplain, because there are other moms who have

[00:17:31] kids in prison who would love to know that someone is coming to encourage them. And so he gave me that idea and I

[00:17:37] became a jail chaplain for four or five years. And I was able to bring many women to Christ that I never would have

[00:17:43] ever even interacted with. And that was the good that he brought about. And you know what? That was healing to my heart.

[00:17:50] It He brought purpose from the pain. But I had to pivot. I had to pivot. I

[00:17:56] had to say, “I’m not going to stay stuck here. I’ve grieved. I’ve not yelled at

[00:18:01] God.” Exactly. But I mean, I said, “God, why? I worked through that. I spent four or five months, but after four or five

[00:18:07] months, no, I I’m not going to stay stuck here. Lord, what do you have? What

[00:18:12] are what is the next chapter? I want to step into that. I want to be bold and courageous and take your hand and

[00:18:18] refused to stay stuck in this kind of victim mentality. I had a woman once,

[00:18:24] gosh, this was probably 20 years ago. She was a godly friend, a lovely woman,

[00:18:29] but boy did she just make me so mad when she said, “Debbie, you have a victim

[00:18:34] mentality. You should get rid of that.” And I was like, “How dare she say that to me? I can’t believe that after all

[00:18:40] I’ve been through.” But after I thought about it, she was right. And really, I I

[00:18:46] I think that was a wakeup call for me, like, oh, wait a minute. If I’m still talking about all this stuff and woe is

[00:18:52] me and my life sucks and I’ll never be okay again after all these things that have happened, that’s a sign that I’m stuck. I don’t want to be stuck anymore.

[00:18:59] I want joy and peace and purpose. And so, that’s how I’ve learned to pivot and

[00:19:04] take God’s God’s hand and move forward. That is uh such an incredible message.

[00:19:10] Um, and one that is so desperately needed. Um, for those of you maybe just tuning in, my guest is Debbie Chavez,

[00:19:16] and she recently wrote a book called Pivot, and the subtitle is How to Break Free from Grief, Heartbreak, Past Abuse,

[00:19:23] and Resentment. And I think this is a really common problem among so many people. And, um, dare I say it, uh, is

[00:19:30] it more common among women than it is among men? You know, it probably is. I We’re a little more emotional, I hear. I don’t

[00:19:36] know how that could be true, but it might be. Yeah. You know, can I just add that

[00:19:41] another thing that’s been super helpful for me is to realize that the enemy loves to whisper lies. I mean, you know,

[00:19:49] in John 8, Jesus says that he’s the father of lies. So, he’s constantly or

[00:19:54] one of his demons who was assigned to you, I don’t know, whoever is chirping in your ear a bunch of lies. You know,

[00:19:59] you’re unlovable. There is no hope. Um, this will never change. God forgot about

[00:20:04] you. You know, whatever the thing is, you’ll always, you know, be stupid. whatever the lies are. But I’ve learned

[00:20:12] that they’re stinking lies and I don’t I’m not going to listen to those lies anymore. But the only way that I even

[00:20:18] know they’re lies is if I get into God’s word and read the truth. And so I have and I and I I lead a

[00:20:24] women’s ministry and they hear me say this pretty much every week and maybe they even roll their eyes because I say it so often, but it’s not that we need

[00:20:32] to get in God’s word, but you know, to check off check it off on our to-do list like so that we’re a good Christian. No, it’s not that. It’s that I need it

[00:20:39] because I need to know the truth because the truth is what helps me to overcome

[00:20:44] well to detect the enemy’s lies and then to overcome the enemy’s lies. And I’m only going to know that when I’m in

[00:20:51] God’s word. That’s when I discovered Isaiah 43. It was just I was just reading through the Bible and oh, God

[00:20:57] actually says, “Do not dwell on the past. Forget the former things.” I didn’t know that was in there. Well, I

[00:21:03] should do that. That would be smart, right? But if I wasn’t reading the word and in there, I wouldn’t have I wouldn’t

[00:21:10] have seen that. I I wouldn’t have noticed Zephaniah 3:17. It’s this little

[00:21:15] teeny book in the middle of the Bible. Zephaniah, who even reads that? But I was reading through the Bible and and I

[00:21:21] saw this verse and it just leapt into my heart and it literally changed me. It

[00:21:27] changed me. It’s the verse that says, “The Lord your God is with you. He is mighty to save. He will take great

[00:21:34] delight in you. He will quiet you with his love. He will rejoice over you with

[00:21:41] singing. What? What? When I read that, it was like this is this is what God says about

[00:21:48] me. Well, okay then. I I I guess I am actually loved and and if he feels that

[00:21:54] way about me, then he really is with me and and I don’t need to fear because no matter what happens, he’s right there

[00:22:00] with me, which is, you know, also in the Bible. He will never leave me nor forsake me. All these verses, I just

[00:22:05] started I just started grabbing hold of them and they helped me defeat those subtle little lies of the enemy like

[00:22:12] this will never change. Your life will always be horrible. You’ll never be loved. People will always leave you.

[00:22:18] It’s like no no bam, get off my shoulder, right? Like I don’t need to listen to this anymore because I know

[00:22:23] the truth. That’s fantastic. So, how do you um help somebody who

[00:22:30] um you know is stuck in a a repetitive pattern or repetitive thoughts and

[00:22:38] you know you went through so much and it’s interesting to me that you know you

[00:22:43] don’t you’re not blaming God. You’re not saying God how could you let this happen to me or all these things. I mean, it

[00:22:51] sounds to me like you have more that’s happened in your life negative than a lot of people have had. I mean, you’ve

[00:22:57] had a lot of things happen. So, how do you deal with that? That um or

[00:23:03] how does somebody deal with that when they have the perspective of like, God, why why would you h if you love me, if

[00:23:08] this is true that you think all these good thoughts about me and and you have joy over me, then why am I going through

[00:23:16] these things? How do you process that as you’re as you’re going through these sorts of things? What how do you

[00:23:22] I love that you ask the really easy questions that theologians have been debating for years. Why is God now suffering? Let me see. I I’ll I’ll try

[00:23:29] to write a book on that, but no, there have been 20 Well, for me, for you’re right, but for me, it’s more personal as in how do you

[00:23:35] personally deal with it? Um Okay, I’ll answer that. Okay.

[00:23:40] Um you know, it’s kind of interesting. I’ve never really got angry at God or

[00:23:46] even really questioned God. Like when my husband died, it was like, you know, why did this happen? Yeah, I mean, of

[00:23:52] course, I would ask that question. And yeah, of course, I would ask, why would you allow me to be sexually abused as a child? Um, but I will say this. I’ I’ve

[00:24:00] always sensed that despite what has happened, which was usually evil caused by people with free will, um, that God

[00:24:08] has always been there with me, that he has never left me. And that that

[00:24:14] constant has been my anchor. So even as a child, I was not brought up in a

[00:24:19] Christian family obviously with all the things that were going on. And yet I now

[00:24:24] looking back, Jesus was with me. In fact, when when I was being abused, I’ll try to say this diplomatically. Um when

[00:24:31] I was being abused, I remember going away with this man that looks like

[00:24:36] Jesus, and we would frolic and dance in a field, and he just took me away. I

[00:24:42] didn’t have to experience a lot of this if if you’re tracking what I’m trying to say here. He sort of like took me away

[00:24:47] in a spiritual realm and then I would come back again. And that’s just that’s

[00:24:53] a loving loving Jesus right there that would spare me experiencing that. That’s

[00:25:00] at least what happened to me. Um when my son went to prison, it’s like why did this have to happen? Why why didn’t you

[00:25:06] stop this horrible thing from happening that that that caused this devastation? I never really got an answer to that

[00:25:13] except for except for this. My son accepted Jesus in prison. That’s pretty good. Wow.

[00:25:18] You know, but I’m always looking for like, Lord, what are you doing? Because he I believe in his sovereignty. He’s

[00:25:24] got a plan. Sometimes I don’t get it, but he’s got a plan. So, you know, look at what happened. I’ve led many people

[00:25:31] in prison to Christ because of that arrest. Uh I my son became a believer in

[00:25:37] prison. Maybe it would have taken him 20 more years to do that. I don’t know. Um, but I’m always seeing God working

[00:25:43] despite all of these things that happened because of free will. Uh, when my husband died, that was not a anyone’s

[00:25:51] evil. It just happened. And I could I could blame God and say, “Why did you take away the love of my life?”

[00:25:58] But he was still with me. God was still with me. I I never doubted that for a second. I could I could sense his

[00:26:04] presence. I when I would pray and see him move and answer prayers, I I could still see he was right there with me.

[00:26:10] And guess what he did? This is just my own story. I’m not saying this is going to work out the same way for everyone.

[00:26:15] But when I ended my grief cycle there, my deep deep grief, I still grieve occasionally, of course, because I miss

[00:26:21] him. But after that four or five months, when I when I heard God say, “It’s time to turn the page.” Guess what? He

[00:26:29] introduced me to a widowed pastor, a widowerower who had lost his wife a year

[00:26:34] earlier, and we connected to talk about grief and now we’re married.

[00:26:40] That’s funny. So, God just keeps on doing things if we’ll turn the page. If we’ll turn the

[00:26:46] page with him instead of being hyperfocused on our wound, on the pain,

[00:26:51] on the offense, he he always has something around the corner. I view it this way. It’s like I

[00:26:57] I think the devil’s just scheming to throw us all these curve balls that will just flatten us. I I know he’s just

[00:27:03] scheming and I see God going like, “Haha, I’m the master chess player. If

[00:27:08] she turns the page, I’ve got this brilliant move that’s going to redeem the whole situation.” But we have to be

[00:27:14] willing to turn the page because he because God’s always bringing it really Romans 8:28 is my life story. Despite

[00:27:20] what happens, he figures out a way to work something good in that situation.

[00:27:27] That’s so amazing. And I’ve seen that so many times too is that you really um there’s that really um popular saying,

[00:27:34] you can get better or you can get bitter. And um it seems so cliche and so

[00:27:39] trite, but it’s really so true uh that we can have this kind of rage against

[00:27:46] God or this where we’re holding on going why why why tell me why. and or we can

[00:27:53] just let go and say, “Look, it I’m going to embrace everything God has for me as

[00:28:00] we work together through this.” And then really to turn it around for good. And

[00:28:06] it’s such an interesting thing because it really does have to do with the person’s perspective. Yes.

[00:28:12] Um and that if they Yeah. If they have the right perspective, then things change. And you really you really have to ask

[00:28:18] God, “What is the good that you’re doing here?” my serial cheater husband, the one that first husband, you know, for 18

[00:28:23] years. Um, you’re thinking, well, how is he gonna bring anything good out of that? Well, guess what God did with that one? Because he’s so very creative and a

[00:28:30] brilliant chess player. Uh, so I’m sure Satan thought, well, I’ve taken out Debbie Chavez. She’s a goner now. It’s

[00:28:35] like, no, God actually, because after I got divorced and married this pastor, I

[00:28:41] started learning about godly principles for marriage. And lo and behold, I found that Jesus had actually given

[00:28:47] instructions in his word about what to do when a person is sinning against you. Listeners, you can read that in Matthew

[00:28:53] 18. Uh God says, “What to do if someone’s sinning against you.” Well, guess what? I started I didn’t even plan

[00:28:59] on doing this. God just had me start a women’s ministry for wives that were struggling in their marriages. Because

[00:29:04] guess what? I could relate to that from my experience in my first marriage. And now I’ve had the privilege of helping I

[00:29:11] don’t know hundreds and hundreds and hundreds maybe a thousand women with their marriage problems based on

[00:29:17] biblical counsel that I wish I would have known in my first marriage but I did not. But I learned and I was able

[00:29:23] I’m able to connect with those women because I understand the pain of adultery and so I can connect with them.

[00:29:29] And so God’s redeemed all of that and he’s always willing to redeem if we will

[00:29:36] let go of the woundedness and the victim mentality and say, “Okay, I did grieve

[00:29:41] that, but now Lord, what are you going to do? I’m with you. Let’s partner together. What are we going to do to

[00:29:47] redeem this?” That is fantastic. For those of you listening, my guest is Debbie Chavez and

[00:29:53] um her book is Pivot. Um, I highly recommend you pick it up maybe for yourself, maybe for somebody you know in

[00:29:59] your life who could use it. It’s it’s not an incredibly thick book, so it’s it’s an easy read. Debbie Chavez.com.

[00:30:06] Um, but filled with scripture and uh just incredible insights from somebody who’s lived it, somebody who’s gone

[00:30:12] through um all kinds of trials and difficulties. Um, one of the things, you know, you talk about is emotions and

[00:30:20] that we don’t want to allow emotions to dictate our decisions. Can you explain that a little bit? um why that’s so

[00:30:26] important. Yeah. If we let our emotions dictate our

[00:30:31] choices, we are going to be in deep weeds right there because our emotions are so fickle. They’re so fickle. And

[00:30:39] usually, I mean, they’re real. They’re real. Like just today, I had a a kind of

[00:30:45] a distant family member say something really wounding to me. And I’m like, “Oh.” And so my first emotion is like

[00:30:53] outrage. I’m I’m I’m offended. I’m like, “Well, la, I’m not going to be in their

[00:30:59] life anymore.” You know, the emotions. Yeah. Yeah. But is that a good idea for me to base

[00:31:04] my decisions on that feeling? Probably not. I probably say things that are unkind in return and now we’ve got a war

[00:31:11] and is this really a godly way of handling it? Probably not. So, I’ve learned to pause. In fact, pausing is

[00:31:18] one of my best recommendations. Pause before you react. Yes, you have

[00:31:23] this emotion, but should that emotion govern your behavior, govern your decision?

[00:31:29] Probably not. Probably best to pause and say, “I’m going to process this with God for even just 30 seconds could help most

[00:31:36] of us, right? From sticking our foot in our mouth and saying something we’ll regret or sending a text response that

[00:31:41] we can’t take back, right? How many of us have done that?” So pausing and saying, “Lord,

[00:31:47] give me your perspective on this situation.” And when this person deeply wounded me today, I was like, “Okay, at

[00:31:53] first I have this big overblown emotional reaction, but I paused and said,”Lord,

[00:31:58] what do I do with this?” And he just said to me, because I I kind of hear the Holy Spirit talking to me, I don’t hear

[00:32:04] an audible voice, but I hear that little nudge. And I just help heard him say, “You know who you are. You know, you

[00:32:10] don’t have to worry about what other people think. just it’s an audience of one. That’s all that matters. You know who you are. And I’m like, “Oh, that’s

[00:32:17] right. Okay.” And then I was just fine. But it’s that pause and asking the Holy

[00:32:22] Spirit, “How do you want me to handle this? How how should I look at this situation?” instead of letting my emotions dictate my behavior.

[00:32:31] What are some of the things that you know um it’d be wonderful if if uh you know the Bible talks about um mentoring

[00:32:38] relationships between um women and it’d be so wonderful if if women had somebody

[00:32:46] like you in their life, you know, on a personal basis like that. What are some of the things that young women um you

[00:32:53] know maybe in their early 20s or as they’re getting into relationships, maybe they’re getting married and things

[00:32:58] and as some of you’re working with different women. What are some of the things that they bump into that you

[00:33:05] would warn them about ahead of time or maybe you could go back and talk to yourself earlier in life? I know a lot

[00:33:11] of that’s here in the book and everything, but is there are there particular things that pop up more frequently than others that you’re kind

[00:33:18] of like, “Hey, be careful of this pitfall. This is one that people they they you know, they stumble here a lot.”

[00:33:24] Is anything in particular come to mind? Oh, so many things. That’d be like a whole another show. But uh one of them,

[00:33:30] one of them honestly is that um I’ve learned especially in marriage uh to

[00:33:35] have clear boundaries in terms of um the husband’s not spending time alone with another woman, wife’s not spending time

[00:33:42] alone with another man. That that’s just like you you open the door crack and the devil’s going to take a mile there. Like

[00:33:48] you know to just try to get you emotionally bonded with someone of the opposite sex. It happens so often even

[00:33:54] in like a co-worker setting for instance. I I even counsel women be careful that you don’t work in a close

[00:34:01] partnership with a man other than your husband because it’s very bonding and you you face the same challenges

[00:34:08] together, you face the same victories together and celebrate together and you’re the only ones that know how you work so hard on that project together or

[00:34:14] whatever. Over time, those things can be very bonding. Or perhaps um maybe your

[00:34:20] wife listening and um maybe the husband of your best friend calls for some

[00:34:25] advice about his wife. That seems like, oh, I’ll just be helpful, but you’re kind of opening up the door for a a an

[00:34:32] emotional conversation, talking about intimate things of marriage and um and

[00:34:37] it’s it’s interesting how the devil will exploit that and try to get you emotionally connected to someone who

[00:34:43] you’re not married to. So, I know this might seem like a random uh one that I pulled out of my hat here, but but that

[00:34:49] is something that I’ve seen I’ve seen many marriages blow apart and it started with that little innocent seeming

[00:34:56] connection. U so just be super careful about that kind of thing. And that’s a boundary issue. Um and

[00:35:02] would you say that a lot of young couples they don’t set good boundaries because they’re just not aware of of the

[00:35:08] dangers or not aware because it doesn’t seem like that would be that big of a deal. I’m just giving advice to my best friend’s

[00:35:13] husband. How could that be a big deal? Or I’m just I’m just have a co-orker who’s a guy and we go out to lunch occasionally. No big deal. Well, over

[00:35:20] five years or something, it just adds up where you start talking more about your family or your marriage or whatever. So,

[00:35:27] you just have to be super careful about those kind of things. Okay. And then um lastly, you know,

[00:35:33] along with reading your book and um you know, checking out the resources that you have and so forth, do you have any

[00:35:40] other um advice in particular for the person that’s um dealing with things

[00:35:46] that are patterns that they keep stumbling into? Should they go see a counselor? Should they uh is it should

[00:35:53] they join a women’s Bible study? Is there anything in particular if they’re dealing something specific or maybe

[00:35:58] there’s not a group that deals with these kinds of issues in their church? Um what what would you say to them?

[00:36:04] Well, it is best to let someone know what’s going on. Whether it is a counselor, whether it’s um a mentor in

[00:36:10] your church, maybe there’s a godly woman that you kind of admire in your church. It’ be great to say, “Hey, can I get coffee with you and maybe just share a

[00:36:17] little bit about what’s going on in my life?” I’ve learned um that if you can be courageously transparent and let let

[00:36:25] that person know like would you keep this confidential that there’s something very helpful in for the first time maybe

[00:36:30] sharing that you’re having that your husband’s addicted to pornography or something and and you just need help. You’ll you’ll often find out that the

[00:36:36] other person has experienced the same thing and can be helpful or maybe can point you to the person who could help.

[00:36:42] But that’s the really the first step is to be honest. I wish I would have been honest in my first marriage. I hid my

[00:36:49] husband’s serial cheating. Why did I think I needed to do that? I don’t know. But I never told anyone until my

[00:36:55] marriage was over. Well, I probably could have had help if I would have just sat with someone and said, “This is

[00:37:00] what’s going on. Is there anything in the Bible that could guide me? Do you know what I should do? Have you ever experienced this?” That would have been

[00:37:07] so helpful. And so, that’s my advice is give ask God to show you who that godly person is in your life. It might be a

[00:37:14] counselor. It might be the pastor’s wife or the pastor or whoever, but ask God to show you who that is. And then be

[00:37:19] courageous and share what’s going on. And and even if they’re just a sounding board, you know, iron sharpens iron,

[00:37:25] they can encourage you, perhaps give you some Bible counsel that would really be helpful.

[00:37:31] That’s fantastic. Well, you have a really wonderful ministry and uh thank you so much for u being faithful to the

[00:37:38] scriptures and just the joy that you do emanate. It’s a wonderful testimony just that there is hope um even through a lot

[00:37:44] of difficulties. So, thank you so much. And if the if the listeners want any um

[00:37:49] help from me, I have a ton of YouTube videos and a ton of podcasts that are

[00:37:55] free. Uh just go to debt chavez.com on a myriad of these subjects about marriage problems and overcoming insecurity and

[00:38:01] overcoming childhood wounds and all these things. That’s all free just at debt chavez.com.

[00:38:07] That’s fantastic. And do you speak at all? Do you um speak at churches? Okay, wonderful. Get some lined up. So, yeah, I’d love to

[00:38:13] do that. Love to come encourage people. Oh, I love it. Okay, well, thank you so much, Debbie. It’s been a real pleasure

[00:38:18] just being able to hear your story and your wisdom. Uh for those of you listening, um we will be back again uh next week. We’ve

[00:38:25] got some other amazing guests coming up. We’re going to actually be talking about Lucy. Uh there’s been new evidence found

[00:38:31] that um Lucy was not a missing link. We also have Disciplehip is leadership

[00:38:36] coming up with Dr. Rich Griffith and um a bunch of other really really good uh

[00:38:42] programs coming up with wonderful guests. So I look forward to being with you again next week. God bless you and I

[00:38:47] hope you had a fantastic Fourth of July. Um and we just um pray that God blesses you this week. Take care. Have a good

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