Life Was Clearly Engineered — With Mark Horstemeyer

[00:00:00] welcome to educate for life i’m your host kevin conover my website is educate4life.org and we’re broadcasting

[00:00:05] from southern california if you’re local we’re on k praise 12 10 a.m as

[00:00:10] as well as uh fm 107.9 uh in north county and uh you can check

[00:00:16] us out there we’re also all over social media and we’ve got hundreds of of uh valuable

[00:00:21] interviews with people from all over the world talking about how god has has uh impacted their lives and then how

[00:00:27] through them they are then impacting others lives and uh i did have michael alexander on just a

[00:00:34] couple weeks ago we were talking about the new um bill that is being presented in

[00:00:39] california to give freedom of education for students all up and down the coast of

[00:00:45] california all over the state of california the goal is to give them the opportunity to go to whatever school they

[00:00:51] they would like to uh through education vouchers and that’s going to be coming up lord

[00:00:58] willing on the ballot in about two years so uh that’s a great thing to get involved

[00:01:04] with my guest this evening is the dean of the school of engineering

[00:01:09] mark horstermeier and that is liberty.edu forward engineering and a little bit

[00:01:16] about him he has a phd in mechanical engineering he has an ms in engineering mechanics a

[00:01:21] bs in mechanical engineering and uh he joined liberty university in 2019

[00:01:28] and he has extensive experience um in the real world at owens corning fiberglass as well as

[00:01:34] many other organizations and companies he’s published over 500 journal articles conference papers books and technical

[00:01:40] reports and get this this is pretty incredible he’s been cited over 12 000 times

[00:01:46] in his research and writings and that is pretty astonishing uh mark thanks so much for being on the

[00:01:52] program today oh glad glad to be here with you kevin yeah man i do not know how you have

[00:01:57] accomplished so much in your lifetime i’m blown away somebody you need to write a book on time management because

[00:02:03] that is absolutely incredible um i wanted to start off with this this quick um stat there was a study done uh

[00:02:12] recently 72 percent of generation z generation z is those born between 2000

[00:02:18] and 2015 don’t believe that church teachings and science are compatible and uh

[00:02:26] mark i just wanted to uh throw that out there what has been your impression um you

[00:02:32] know as students come to liberty university and you know they’re talking about their experiences

[00:02:38] um you’re you’re dealing with students on a regular basis you’re really on the cutting edge of of what’s happening in our culture as it

[00:02:44] pertains to science and faith and god because this is what you’re dealing with on a regular basis

[00:02:51] um does that sound does that sound accurate that that stat i just shared with you

[00:02:56] yeah i would say in the secular institutions when christians go there or muslims or

[00:03:03] mormons or you know god-fearing people god believing people that

[00:03:08] you know they go to secular institutions the first thing they run is materialistic evolution and so they try to shipwreck their faith and

[00:03:16] cause doubt about those things where at liberty i would say for the most part uh the

[00:03:22] kids come in believing about god of course we support um the biblical perspective on on on

[00:03:30] science uh as opposed to an atheistic version of science um and you know the age-old

[00:03:38] confrontation of faith versus science um i don’t think it’s quite accurate

[00:03:45] actually um and let me make two points one is when we look at the scientific method

[00:03:52] the scientific method the first thing is we make an observation and then the second thing we make a hypothesis about that observation and

[00:03:59] then we have to set up experiments to falsify our working hypothesis if we if it can’t be falsified it

[00:04:04] becomes a theory and then after after many more experiments human experiments becomes a law

[00:04:11] a law of nature like the law of biogenesis that life can only come from life a previous existing life okay that’s a

[00:04:17] law that we have seen over and over and over and never been violated yeah can i ask you a question about that

[00:04:24] you know it’s interesting that you bring that up because i actually was having a conversation um with an atheist and i i specifically

[00:04:31] brought up the law of biogenesis because um you you look at the law of biogenesis all life comes from pre-existent life

[00:04:37] all life reproduces after its kind and and uh he goes well actually scientists

[00:04:44] are are considering that this is actually not a law uh in reality um and so he tried to

[00:04:50] dispute it so scientists are doing it and those scientists are wrong right yeah a hundred percent of all the

[00:04:58] data says that okay a hundred percent so you could now here’s my point here’s where i’m getting to let’s imagine i

[00:05:04] find a fossil okay that’s my observation i find it fossil my hypothesis is over millions of

[00:05:09] years random chance events long periods of times animals went from from molecules to man and this is one of them

[00:05:16] okay and it was lithified you know 250 million years ago that kind of thing okay the next step is set up experiment

[00:05:23] go ahead set up an experiment to last 250 million years go ahead you can’t yeah you can’t

[00:05:31] so evolution macro evolution can never reach the level of a theory

[00:05:37] let alone a law so it becomes only a working hypothesis

[00:05:43] it’s a belief it’s a belief okay because they can never set up an

[00:05:49] experiment to test that exp science the scientific method the scientific law science is

[00:05:55] bound by human experience and if you’re making up stories about what happened outside of human

[00:06:01] experience by humans being there you’re making up stories yeah that’s what you’re doing so um i mean uh i agree with you 100

[00:06:10] uh obviously there’s a lot of people out there that are that are disputing that uh weird weirdly it doesn’t seem like

[00:06:15] it’s disputable but they can they can believe anything they want to believe right the thought police aren’t out yet if you want to believe you know that

[00:06:23] that affect that that a princess can kiss a frog and become a prince you can believe that

[00:06:28] it’s fine you know but now instead of if you but when you call it science you’ve got to set up experiments you’ve got to

[00:06:33] go through the process okay that that’s key now theater knows i want to make another

[00:06:39] point fear on carmen said no he’s the guy jet propulsion lab caltech

[00:06:45] he won the medal of science 1960 john f kennedy he won the first medal of science in the united states 1960. phone carmen made a beautiful

[00:06:52] statement he said science is the discovery of what exists engineering is a creation of what never

[00:06:59] was right so there’s a distinction and it’s a beautiful distinction

[00:07:04] if it exists and i study it i go through the scientific method that’s science if i’m talking about

[00:07:10] creating something i’m engineering something there’s a different process

[00:07:16] it goes through design analysis procurement logistics assembly function

[00:07:22] sustainability and in-depth recycling it’s a different process okay that’s interesting yeah so so then

[00:07:29] we go back to your point people have said well it’s an issue of faith versus science

[00:07:34] well first of all i made the point it’s two working hypothesis against each other

[00:07:39] one says that you know god created everything which i can’t repeat that an experiment either like

[00:07:46] the evolutionists can’t repeat with what their history said but there’s a big distinction between science and engineering though

[00:07:53] and and what we’re what they’re really trying to do when they go back in time is do something called reverse engineering okay they’re trying to do

[00:08:00] reverse engineering well that’s an admission that it was engineered

[00:08:06] yeah okay yeah so i have no problem saying i have no problem saying that some of

[00:08:11] these things were not science i have no problem yeah it’s not science it’s engineering it’s fine it’s engineering innovation

[00:08:19] that’s not science it’s engineering design that’s not science it’s engineering

[00:08:24] that’s really that’s really great because um you know a lot of people i i i was quoting an engineer at one point

[00:08:31] in time and somebody commented and said hey this this guy’s not even a biologist he’s not even he’s an engineer

[00:08:37] uh what in the world does that have to do with evolution uh why should we respect this guy’s opinion on anything

[00:08:43] and yet you’re saying um well if you’re trying to reverse engineer what you see in nature that’s like you

[00:08:49] said creation hearing biologists are trying to reverse engineer

[00:08:54] okay they’re trying to do it and by the way if you’re a christian and you’re a biologist and my my

[00:09:01] question to you is do you think of a random chance events long periods times we’ve gone for molecules to man

[00:09:06] and a lot of christians could say no no okay do you believe it was engineered many biologists say yeah

[00:09:13] then why aren’t you studying engineering then why don’t you understand the engineering process and do a reverse

[00:09:19] engineering process so help us explain that for for the average person out there

[00:09:24] when you’re talking about um you know why aren’t you exploring engineering how does engineering um

[00:09:32] help a person to get a better grip on uh the facts of creation than than

[00:09:39] um say studying biology uh and that’s good it’s good kevin and i’ve

[00:09:45] never had this conversation before so it’s a very good question but but i thought about it and

[00:09:51] see the issue is the process of thinking and engineering more so than any other

[00:09:59] discipline is a synthesis everything’s a system everything’s a system and it starts from

[00:10:06] the system top down not bottom up from little things to big things

[00:10:12] it starts from the system down okay so so you’re talking about looking

[00:10:17] at the overall picture of what it is you’re trying to achieve and working from the finished design

[00:10:23] down to the component details yeah let me let me make a concrete example let’s talk about if we were going to design a car

[00:10:29] so for example nissan’s artsy people they live in san diego down area and

[00:10:35] california and they make a beautiful beautiful looking vehicle on the outside

[00:10:42] all right it’s it’s the complete thing right now but it doesn’t work it’s beautiful but it doesn’t work

[00:10:47] then they send it to phase two to the the engineers right the design engineers the engineers get it and they make it

[00:10:54] more blockier and uglier but they’re compromising form for function but it works now

[00:11:00] it works and then then the the crash the crash engineer gets it later

[00:11:05] and you know mom is worried about the babies in the van and everything and so there’s a design change based on those environments and everything

[00:11:11] but it’s all the system first and the systems engineers get it and they go down and they put constraints

[00:11:18] on this of subsystem components like the chassis system and then the sub subsystem will maybe

[00:11:24] put a constraint on say a control arm and the control arm then puts a constraint on the axle

[00:11:30] designer you know so you have different length scales now all the way going down to the different

[00:11:35] length scales from the largest structure to the smallest structure even down to the electrons you get a material

[00:11:41] scientist dealing with the electrons now in a vehicle and and and yeah now that and then

[00:11:47] there’s an upscaling connection but the constraints requirements and everything come from the system from the top

[00:11:52] down that’s how engineers view things and look at things and why why is

[00:11:58] that uh why is that a check mark against uh evolution evolutionary claims yeah so i mean

[00:12:06] evolution believes uh from uh from aristotle’s great chain of being

[00:12:11] from the smallest thing to the greatest thing that we go from from molecules and somehow through

[00:12:17] imagination and some other thing all these systems complex systems were created

[00:12:23] yeah and as and and and fundamentally the problem is is that um you have to have a top-down view to

[00:12:29] get to where we’re at you can’t you have to you have to do that yeah yeah okay and yeah and and so and this leads me to

[00:12:35] the to the idea this is what continuum theories are continue mechanics

[00:12:41] and i i had when i met you before i talked to you about this proof this physics proof of god’s existence

[00:12:48] and it goes through the same thing the same the same idea i have these designers designing this complex car

[00:12:54] system of the car all right and and in designing the vehicle we had we

[00:13:01] had to run simulations and the simulations we we run there’s conservation

[00:13:06] equations math equations that say we have to conserve mass we have to conserve energy we have to

[00:13:12] conserve momentum that’s a law those are laws but then what happens mathematically

[00:13:17] there’s too many unknowns for those equations so mathematically we need other equations that’s called the material model or constitutive

[00:13:24] equations constitution of the material then we have another enough equations

[00:13:29] and and enough unknowns that they solve each other that’s called a boundary value problem and this is how we we recall we run

[00:13:36] calculations of cars crashing planes crashing um you know i did analysis of the columbia space shuttle

[00:13:43] blowing up over texas that kind of thing uh i was involved at sandia labs designing thermonuclear bombs using

[00:13:50] these things we we are now at the point we use these high performance computing simulation methods

[00:13:55] we get very accurate answers because we include the uncertainties in them right but it starts from the continuum level

[00:14:02] the top level and the constraints pushed all the way down to the electrons and then we do that we do the physics

[00:14:09] coming back up from from the electrons there it’s all constraint by the system’s design all right now one famous law that’s used

[00:14:18] in the constitution of laws of materials is something called hooke’s law we use it in everything

[00:14:23] and it’s been validated verified from this guy robert hook who lived at the same time as isaac newton in the 1700s

[00:14:29] this is 1700s okay yeah and this is and the idea is you’re pulling forces and there’s a

[00:14:35] displacement related to a force you’re pulling to something but but and they had ropes and they were like

[00:14:40] pulling these things and they said you know let’s see if we can we can figure out when something breaks

[00:14:46] these ropes breaking well they couldn’t figure it out and it wasn’t until 100 years later until 1822 that a guy named koshy in

[00:14:53] france divided the force by the area and then we get the stress that’s called

[00:15:00] the stress the mechanical stress of something and we relate it to the strain and we have this relationship and that’s what

[00:15:06] we use to design carbs that’s what we use to design planes thermolink of bonds in these boundary value problems so

[00:15:12] these tools they’ve been validated verified we know they work so then i ask

[00:15:17] the question what if those same laws can be applied to the universe

[00:15:23] okay and there’s a key thing in in in these laws and koshi’s law says that

[00:15:30] like in in the like if we were designing a cadillac the cadillac car there’s 22 different

[00:15:36] boundary conditions we’re worried about when driving that cadillac one of them it runs over a railroad

[00:15:42] track one of them it curves and hits a pothole another one you know it wrecks into

[00:15:47] another car okay 22 different conditions those are boundary we call those boundary conditions right

[00:15:52] and so it’s called a boundary value problem so we we simulate all these boundary value problems everything and we design the vehicle from the system

[00:15:59] all the way down and we get answers we know it right so if your car if you’re if your car’s not

[00:16:04] running well then then you know they didn’t do a good job of their their boundary calculations exactly

[00:16:11] that’s right yeah they didn’t optimize i had a car talk about optimization like i had a car that caught on caught on

[00:16:17] fire when i was in college on the freeway i won’t say the name of the brand of the car because i don’t want to i don’t want

[00:16:24] to turn it i don’t want to go you don’t want to indict chrysler [Laughter]

[00:16:31] yeah but yeah go on yeah sorry about that um so so the question i had okay well

[00:16:37] what if we related this continuum level idea to the cosmos and then there’s something on the outside of

[00:16:43] the boundary of the cosmos that’s running everything okay so what’s the material model of the

[00:16:48] cosmos it’s einstein’s general theory of relativity so then the question because

[00:16:53] okay well and if that’s a material model can i relate hooke’s law to that and we’ve done that

[00:16:59] so in other words but now the general through relativity says it’s not pulling it it’s actually everything is bent

[00:17:05] space time is bent okay but by definition

[00:17:11] because there’s a stress inside the cosmos in the general theory

[00:17:16] relativity just like their stress inside the car by definition there is something on the outside of the

[00:17:21] boundary that’s causing the stress oh that’s interesting that’s the proof

[00:17:26] of god’s hand on the outside of everything whoa so so we’ve got a universal definition

[00:17:32] it’s by definition wow so we’ve got a universe 28 billion light years across right is my understanding and and um

[00:17:40] you’re saying that because there is a force on the inside um that there must be a force on the

[00:17:47] outside there’s yeah and that force is called attraction folks that’s right

[00:17:52] by definition and think about when you say by definition you mean by you mean by einstein’s theory of general

[00:17:58] relativity you have to put all the equations together einstein’s general theory the conservation equations and koshi’s law

[00:18:04] sakoshi’s law relates the stress to the thing on the outside of the continuum body so i have a

[00:18:10] continuing body whether it’s a car whether it’s a train whether it’s plane and then there’s attraction

[00:18:16] we call it t on the outside and now this continuum body is the universe the distraction t

[00:18:21] is god’s hands okay so so i’m not completely getting that so

[00:18:26] when you say when you say that there’s a tricky added balloon yeah and the balloon was the universe

[00:18:32] okay and i had my hands on the outside of the balloon and i’m pushing it and everything my hands are the boundary pushing the

[00:18:39] balloon whatever i want it’s controlling everything on the inside oh interesting yeah just like when i’m

[00:18:44] driving a car the wind the road everything is pushing the car and there’s different stresses there’s

[00:18:51] different stresses inside that car different locations there’s different things going on inside that car

[00:18:56] so are you saying that if if god’s hands were not on the outside

[00:19:02] then what would the inside of the balloon be like yeah well well so the big bang theory

[00:19:10] talks about the expansion of the universe okay and there’s data that maybe it was

[00:19:15] expanding maybe it was the same but any structure that’s happening inside the cosmos now any structure

[00:19:21] at the super cluster level at the at the cluster level of the galaxies at the solar system level at the earth

[00:19:28] level whatever now there’s a multi-scale hierarchy of structures that are influencing each

[00:19:34] other from the system all the way down to the lowest link skills coming from the boundary value coming

[00:19:40] from the boundary the attractions on the outside now um and and how do we know that the

[00:19:46] universe is a closed system i mean i i know that that’s that’s generally accepted i i believe um

[00:19:53] but but you know we we the the here’s here’s what they mean by that okay okay so here’s what they mean

[00:20:01] so imagine a balloon okay and a balloon that’s expanding so

[00:20:09] what what what they’re saying is if i start on one side of blue and go around the circle i can go around forever and there’s no

[00:20:15] bounce okay yeah well well but

[00:20:20] in one sense they’re right but another sense still bound it’s bound by the balloon

[00:20:27] yeah okay and i can still take my hands on the outside of the balloon and push it squash it push it wherever i want

[00:20:32] with it yeah okay so the evidence so by definition like you’re saying because of

[00:20:38] those three laws there has to be uh influence outside of the universe that’s

[00:20:43] that’s causing to happen what’s happening on the inside of the universe right right and that is a that is a

[00:20:49] scientific proof for god’s existence that’s a scientific proof and the ma and those equations

[00:20:55] are the mathematical proof then of his existence because it’s a boundary value

[00:21:00] yeah wow it’s been over and over now have you um have you shared this with other

[00:21:06] scientists have you published this and you’ve published in a lot of journals have you published this yes so what we did we published five papers in

[00:21:13] secular journals just about the model the constituent relations and showing all those things with hooke’s law and einstein’s theory

[00:21:19] we did all that i’ve not published anything and shown that this is the proof of god’s existence that’s coming up i am working on that right now

[00:21:26] okay but what i did i presented it at um liberty university to at a convocation

[00:21:32] there and if people want to go to online there’s a you if you go to youtube and you just look up my name horse to meyer

[00:21:38] it’ll pop up i think it’s the first thing that pops up honestly and it goes through a 35 minute

[00:21:44] it shows the equations uh goes through the analogies and all that sort of thing that’s fantastic so then i and then

[00:21:51] later i spoke at an international conference in cyprus and uh there was nine nobel prize

[00:21:57] winners and there was a national academy of science uh people in from europe there and i

[00:22:04] i presented this idea and uh when i was done um um in fact two two

[00:22:11] two people two men in the crowd were crying i found out one was a president of a university in austria and one was a

[00:22:17] senior engineer they both were christians and they couldn’t believe somebody’s speaking like this in europe wow but but but immediately the guy in

[00:22:24] the right hand corner a nobel prize winner stood up that i agree with what he’s saying and i’m an atheist

[00:22:30] wow i spent about an hour with him going just through the details that ends

[00:22:35] up he’s he’s a jewish man he was a material scientist so he understood fully what i was trying to

[00:22:41] talk about wow that’s incredible yeah so so is he still an atheist

[00:22:47] well after my hour with him i looked at him and said daniel i don’t think you’re an atheist

[00:22:52] because what i did too i went through genesis 1 1 and i was going through the hebrew language of better sheath and

[00:22:59] and meaning time and shema meaning space and its meaning matter and

[00:23:04] i started telling about space time and matter in the trinity and in the continuum of the very first verse and the physics

[00:23:10] with that and you know as a jewish man he was excited i i’ve read our bible many times i never heard of

[00:23:17] this physics stuff and and in the end he he said i really like all this so they know i don’t think

[00:23:22] you’re an atheist then it sounds like you believe he goes oh yeah i’m probably a believer right yeah

[00:23:28] i probably he says but i brag to be an atheist because we do that in the science community

[00:23:33] oh gosh well hopefully that trend goes away um so for those of you listening my

[00:23:39] guest today is dr mark horstenmaier he’s the dean of the school of engineering with liberty university

[00:23:45] and uh you can check him out and the the program there if you’re interested liberty.edu forward slash engineering

[00:23:52] and you can check out all that kind of stuff it’s really fantastic and uh now more than ever we need bible

[00:23:57] believing christians who can articulate um their views uh intelligently and in a way that other

[00:24:04] scientists uh can can hear from you and um this is a great person to learn under so

[00:24:09] i hope you’ll take the opportunity to check that out and um so along those same lines um uh

[00:24:16] mark you know your your program um you talk about uh that that quote um

[00:24:23] where it talks about creationeering and i wanted to ask you about that um you know what does set liberty apart as

[00:24:29] far as you know if somebody a young person is considering going to a secular university or they’re

[00:24:34] considering going to liberty um what what reasons would they have to go to um study at liberty in the

[00:24:40] engineering program versus a secular university does it make that big of a difference really that that’s good kevin that’s a

[00:24:46] good question you know my undergrad education was west virginia university my master’s degree is ohio state

[00:24:52] i went to georgia tech for phd i took classes at stanford when i was at sandia labs and then you

[00:24:58] know i taught at mississippi state university so i’ve been all over uh secular institutions

[00:25:04] and um and liberty is different this is different and the idea of

[00:25:11] creationeering is something that we trade market trade market just this last year

[00:25:16] and based on von carmen’s statement about science and discovery of what exists

[00:25:22] engineering is a creation of what number was kevin i asked the dean all the deans of engineering uh

[00:25:28] several years ago where did the word engineering come from not a single person got it right not a

[00:25:33] single dean in the united states they said it will come from the latin word ingenious you know so we’re ingenious people and everything

[00:25:39] i laughed i said man that’s sales and marketing that’s not history that’s not history it actually came from

[00:25:46] the first usage of it came remember the catapults they called those engines when they threw the big rocks

[00:25:51] oh yeah the catapults but it wasn’t formalized as an educational thing to robert fulton’s steam engine it’s

[00:25:57] actually an engine interesting they were engineers so then i asked the deans a question i said okay

[00:26:03] now how many engineers across the world are working on engines uh less than one percent yeah so i said

[00:26:10] so it’s a bad word it’s it’s not a good word it’s it’s a misnomer right

[00:26:15] but what’s a better word and well let’s go to von carmen and let’s say okay if it’s related to creation then we’re creation years

[00:26:22] then i started thinking about from the bible’s perspective what does this mean okay and

[00:26:29] let’s take for example genesis 1 verses 26 28. into genesis 1 26 we were created in the

[00:26:36] image of god as humans as created love beings we’re created from a creator

[00:26:43] and and that creativeness now resides in us in our mannishness i’ll say and so

[00:26:51] um then since god created everything and what science and science is the

[00:26:56] study of what what he did well romans 1 20 says we can understand his character nature and attributes by the things he

[00:27:04] made so the goal now of science if you’re studying what exists is to understand the creator he’s

[00:27:11] revealing himself that’s the goal let’s glorify god in that number one

[00:27:17] so then we can create that that’s that’s the science that’s the goal of science but proverbs 8 12 says he gives

[00:27:23] knowledge for witty inventions that’s the engineering and so now

[00:27:29] in romans 1 and excuse me genesis 1 28 when he says you are to rule and reign as a human

[00:27:35] the creator says to the created human being you’re to rule and reign what does ruling and reigning mean i

[00:27:41] think it deals with both science and then engineering so now you’re creating technologies you’re creating

[00:27:48] you’re being innovate what’s innovative is getting revelation from the creator to get ideas about what to do based on

[00:27:55] what you studied and understand in the creation and then you create a company i don’t

[00:28:02] think in genesis 128 when he says you have you’re to have dominion everything i don’t think it’s just a theological

[00:28:07] position or a political position but it’s a doing thing you’re supposed to do so so then you go

[00:28:12] from the science to understand to create a technology to have entrepreneurship to create a

[00:28:19] business so it goes from science to engineering to entrepreneurship to the business

[00:28:24] and you run your business you create value okay by by by doing this from the

[00:28:30] creator’s perspective in an example i’ll give is this so i started a football homo company and so the science

[00:28:38] is i’m studying what exists and i’m trying to learn from god so i looked at

[00:28:43] the woodpeckers i looked at rams hitting each other i looked at turtle shells i looked at armadillo shells i looked at

[00:28:52] the bison hitting each other and you can look up journal articles i published on all these things

[00:28:57] and i asked god he said what is the secret in your designs in your engineering design when you go through that

[00:29:03] what did you do in your engineering process and there’s three secrets in all those things he did three things

[00:29:09] so that’s the science part what are the three things i’m only going

[00:29:14] to tell you one oh okay i’m gonna tell you one for now how do we find out the other two

[00:29:20] uh you if you want to invest in my football helmet company we can do that okay we’ll do that

[00:29:27] okay so you’ve got currently you’ve got a football helmet company currently yeah yeah and we’ve we’ve it’s called uh

[00:29:33] yo bell and i’ll tell you about that we’ve won two nfl uh head health challenges

[00:29:39] uh money right now and we’re going to be submitting our helmet here in july to the nfl head office

[00:29:45] this is a this is an incredible sales pitch for uh the the engineering program at liberty right here yeah we’ll have to see what happens i’m

[00:29:52] loving it i’m loving it yeah so so now

[00:29:57] so then we created the helmet and we and so one of the fun things you see in all those designs is something called

[00:30:03] a functional gradient it’s always hard on the outside and go softer to the inside

[00:30:09] from the turtle shell to the ramshorn to the woodpecker beak all this wow so we did that we created a

[00:30:15] helmet that’s really hard on the outside it goes soft or soft or soft it goes on the inside and my data shows we’re two times better

[00:30:21] in every helmet wow that is so cool so we have a product so we went from science engineering

[00:30:27] i started a company for entrepreneurship and now i’m trying to do a business for this

[00:30:32] so this is the example of the dominion mandate and i’m trying to do this as an

[00:30:38] example for students to learn this very thing so when when freshmen come in we start

[00:30:43] with the 14 grand challenge at the national academy’s grand challenges

[00:30:49] and we say okay what’s the science associated what’s the engineering we’re going to do and and i’m going to explain the

[00:30:54] engineering process and the entrepreneurship process here in a few seconds but we have our freshmen

[00:30:59] go through it by the time they’re seniors they’ve gone through this and we have a minor in entrepreneurship my idea is

[00:31:05] they have a company by the time they’re done they have problems and they have a company and they’re ready to rock and roll man that is

[00:31:11] incredible i love it i’m gonna tell all my all my engineer uh potential students uh

[00:31:18] to go check that out that’s incredible i love it yeah that would be great we would love to have them yeah and uh i just think

[00:31:25] um that makes so much sense that you know what you’re doing there is um you know from a biblical perspective and

[00:31:31] and taking that and making it practical um and actually fulfilling you know god’s call on their

[00:31:37] life as an engineer and then being a light through through engineering it’s really cool

[00:31:43] kevin i i every one of these high school kids that comes through or somebody that we have a master’s in phd program even

[00:31:48] the undergrad i say about the massive phd i said you are to rule and reign for

[00:31:54] your creator and i say how many people ever told you that kevin you know how many people i’ve only been here since january 219

[00:32:01] guess how many people how many of those kids have been told that i can’t believe it’s very many

[00:32:06] zero yeah yeah zero wow okay that’s that’s yeah that’s

[00:32:13] something we gotta we gotta what the church has gotta get better at yeah that’s our first command to us is to rule and reign

[00:32:19] okay yeah i’m taking notes i’m writing that down all right brother another point about

[00:32:26] and this so the engineering process is you design first but design is not everything

[00:32:33] and and that that’s where the intelligent design people stock they do a good work there but it’s not

[00:32:38] engineering you have to analyze things look look when god made things in the beginning

[00:32:44] god created heaven’s earth went through what happened at the end of the first day he did science he said

[00:32:49] i looked at it and it was good okay followed by science right

[00:32:57] yeah i like the design he looked so he analyzed it now of course he knew infinitely he said right away right

[00:33:03] and then then procurement is you know i make things right and that’s a different thing than

[00:33:09] now you design for making things you design for manufacturing but the manufacturing is different itself

[00:33:15] you design for logistics but then logistics is something different in our kids that in our place we have

[00:33:21] the students they do it if they make a formula card they make a race car from nuff every every year and then they go compete so

[00:33:28] from nothing you have to design you have to have a cons a conceptual design a preliminary design final design

[00:33:34] and you’ve got to go through the engineering process and at the end you race it for performance and function

[00:33:39] but the design is not just for the performance invention what about logistics what about assembly

[00:33:45] and those kids find out how horrible their designs were for assembly and of course we know henry ford that’s

[00:33:50] what made for the big deal is was it was assembly yeah so this whole notion of this process of

[00:33:57] thinking and engineering now what i say is that’s not just creationary though because creation ring brings in the entrepreneurship at a

[00:34:04] friend of mine i said well god’s engineering guys in india he said mark god’s a businessman

[00:34:11] is this man what are you talking about business man he goes look god’s interested in humans

[00:34:17] human personnel god’s interested in moral law legal god’s interested in finances and

[00:34:24] stewardship finance and accounting he he always has

[00:34:29] a an organizational structure management all right

[00:34:35] and let’s see what’s the fifth one well god’s interested in sales evangelism sales and events sales and marketing

[00:34:41] communication that’s right there you go and so i didn’t have an answer for them that’s so funny yeah i said i

[00:34:47] i give a i so creationeering to me then embraces both of those things to to fulfill the dominion

[00:34:53] that is beautiful that is so beautiful yeah i heard uh i i read a book by billy graham and he

[00:34:59] said he learned to be an evangelist by being a i believe he said a toothbrush door-to-door salesman

[00:35:06] i thought that was so funny that’s right you got that brother you you helped me you helped me uh

[00:35:14] let’s say but before we click i’ve got to make one more point about design yeah about this whole thing in creation

[00:35:20] and i don’t call this a proof but i call it an evidence that’s experimentally validated and the

[00:35:27] point is this in design we have objectives constraints and and variables and it happens at

[00:35:34] different length scales so in a car you know it has its objectives it’s got it’s got to sustain

[00:35:41] it’s got it it’s got to keep people safe that’s why the car crash thing is in here okay so you’re increasing safety the

[00:35:48] objective has to increase or decrease and then you have constraints so every length scale going on every subsystem the chassis

[00:35:53] the next length scale you know the uh the control arms the axles the tires they’re all the

[00:35:59] constraints all come from the system right all right now here’s the thing about the objectives

[00:36:05] if there’s more than one objective by definition again from the pareto frontier the

[00:36:11] mathematical construct it requires intelligence outside the

[00:36:16] system to pick the answer because there’s more than one solution oh that’s really interesting by

[00:36:22] definition okay more than one objective we’re going to have to talk about that twice because

[00:36:27] i feel like that’s really important um so so you just said that when you

[00:36:32] have more than two one objective in a in something that’s been designed and

[00:36:38] something that’s been yet been designed you have to have intelligence outside

[00:36:44] the system to pick what the solution is let me give you an example yeah so let’s say that god just one

[00:36:51] objective of my finger was to point that was one objective okay the mathematical solution says

[00:36:57] it’ll converge and just go right down all right it’ll converge in what it’ll converge just to optimize the pointer

[00:37:04] okay gotcha but what if there’s another object objectives that says i want it to grab

[00:37:11] now i have two so what happened the pointer now compromises a little bit

[00:37:16] to be able to grab if the only it was objective to grab it wouldn’t it would be different than

[00:37:23] the two objectives of pointing and grabbing now by definition it requires

[00:37:29] intelligence outside because there’s a multiple set of solutions for that now when you say by definition um you’re

[00:37:35] saying you’re you’re um asserting uh the claim why why is it by definition

[00:37:43] you’re appealing to logic there you’re you’re saying no i’m appealing actually to mathematics now okay there’s something called a pareto

[00:37:49] frontier and the predator so we alfredo pareto came up with these mathematics it was

[00:37:55] originally related to economics and how to maximize economics related to constraints and variables on systems

[00:38:01] but we’ve been using it in design and engineering for for years now and and so when you do the mathematics

[00:38:07] and you do the calculations so i’ve done all these car crash simulations design optimization i’ve done this design optimization of the football

[00:38:14] helmet i’ve done it with nuclear bombs and and what happens is you compromise different parts and you’re trying it’s

[00:38:20] trying to converge on a solution mathematically using high performance computing so the idea of using high performance

[00:38:25] computing to run through these iterations to come down to the solution space even in the end

[00:38:31] the solution space gives you options you know in the pareto frontier because i have one objective and another objective

[00:38:37] it’s a curve it’s okay and you have to you have to have some sort of a compromise there um and and this is devastating for

[00:38:45] evolution because uh there are numerous organisms and uh systems within creation within

[00:38:52] nature that have numerous uh object objectives and so so that in and of itself um

[00:39:00] presumes design now that’s so interesting because i haven’t heard that argument very often um made you know uh out and about

[00:39:09] well maybe they haven’t done the mathematics or the copy high performance computing and all that i’ve lived through and that’s

[00:39:15] probably why yeah it seems like scientists that are uh knowledgeable about these issues

[00:39:20] should naturally come to the conclusion that uh there must be a designer and this isn’t this isn’t just

[00:39:26] oh it’s it’s designed because it look we think it looks designed this is

[00:39:31] this is the uh the conclusion that you must have it’s

[00:39:36] not it’s not an option it’s exactly right in fact you know way back i’m going to say it was 1988 i went

[00:39:43] to a debate by dwayne gish and paul sarrick he’s a professor at berkeley for years and i remember

[00:39:48] said one of sarah’s argument was a uh the whale finn is designed horribly

[00:39:53] it’s designed horribly so after the debate i went up to him i said sir i said um

[00:39:59] why was it i said does it function does it work does the whale thing work yes it does i

[00:40:05] said in your mind as a designer what would it what would it look like

[00:40:10] and why would it you know and so he said once you do this and the other i said okay i said no look if if that fin was supposed to be an

[00:40:17] existent organism by itself you probably could be right but remember we’re talking about a whale

[00:40:22] the whole system is a whale and and you’re going to compromise

[00:40:29] that fin to fit on the whale and the whale has other objectives and other parts of it and so

[00:40:36] your view of a bad design is you don’t understand systems

[00:40:42] engineering um okay yeah and then i said did you have did you ever design anything make it he

[00:40:49] said well in the garage he never went through a formal

[00:40:55] mathematical design process that i’m talking about yeah this is just a lack of knowledge it’s coming to a conclusion based on a

[00:41:01] lack of understanding yeah yeah wow uh well for those of you

[00:41:06] listening um my guest today is mark horstermeier he is uh the dean of the school of

[00:41:12] engineering and um and uh he has a phd in mechanical engineering as well as

[00:41:17] numerous other um uh accolades related to his name he’s

[00:41:24] published over 500 journal articles conference papers books technical reports and been cited over 12 000 times

[00:41:30] i find that just astonishing and if you’re interested in in learning under his uh guidance you

[00:41:38] can join liberty university uh and the school of engineering you can also check him out on youtube youtube

[00:41:43] dot com forward slash horse to meyer if you want to check that out um so so what do you anticipate the

[00:41:50] future of uh we only have a little bit of time left here but i’m just curious what do you anticipate the future of the

[00:41:56] engineering program at um at liberty um mark what do you what do you foresee

[00:42:01] yeah well we’re growing pretty pretty well when i started just two years ago we had 400 students we have a thousand now

[00:42:07] wow and we have an online program uh as well in our graduate school like i said we

[00:42:12] started first thing i did was develop the grad program we have 30 masters and phd students so i’m hoping it’ll grow the thing i’m focusing

[00:42:19] on myself personally is something called simulating genesis the same multi-skill material modeling

[00:42:25] that has history effects that we’ve applied to summer nuclear bombs and cars and planes

[00:42:30] and trains i’m trying to play apply to the days of creation in the genesis flood wow yeah and and so the history effects

[00:42:38] of how day one plays into day two into day three and all that and using those simulations to show another validation if you will

[00:42:46] of the bible in the early parts of the bible oh my gosh man

[00:42:51] that almost makes me want to become an engineer just to go through your program yeah i’d be the oldest i’d be the oldest

[00:42:58] person there but uh anyway um thanks so much for coming on the program today uh i really really appreciate it and uh

[00:43:05] i’m gonna be spreading the word about liberty and the engineering program there and everything you’re doing and um i’m just

[00:43:11] praying for your ongoing success because we need more uh scientists and engineers like you who are

[00:43:17] who are uh just determined and dedicated and getting the job done so that’s that’s just so exciting to me thank you

[00:43:23] kevin i really appreciate it absolutely uh thanks for tuning in today uh if you’ve heard the program i hope you

[00:43:30] enjoyed it and um we have hundreds of other programs up there with scientists from all over the world

[00:43:36] uh like uh dr horstenmeyer and uh who really know their stuff and are able to communicate effectively

[00:43:42] and really show that uh the god of creation is the god of science is the god of the bible

[00:43:47] and uh you can take that to the bank and so uh god bless you and we look forward to being with you next

[00:43:52] time and my website again is educate4life.org full online apologetics curriculum you

[00:43:58] can check out there and uh start to build a firm foundation for your belief in the in the bible and the

[00:44:03] word of god and jesus christ so i hope you take advantage of that god bless you and we will see you next time

[00:44:09] bye bye mark goodbye thanks kevin appreciate you man you got it

[00:44:33] you