[00:00:00] oh here’s your host Kevin Conover bringing outside welcome to educate for

[00:00:07] life I’m your host Kevin Conover my website is join educate for life dot o RG it’s 40 online classes defending the

[00:00:14] truth of the Bible and I have a special guest in the studio today if you didn’t

[00:00:19] know this year marks the 500th anniversary of the Reformation of Martin

[00:00:25] Luther and the 95 theses and really that the Protestant Reformation right that the where the Catholic Church and the

[00:00:31] Protestant church ended up splitting so my guest today is from Southern

[00:00:37] California seminary is Corey Marsh he’s a graduate of Southern California Seminary he earned a BA in biblical

[00:00:43] studies Master of Arts and biblical studies and a Master of Divinity he is finishing his master of theology degree

[00:00:49] at SCS SCS and will begin a PhD in biblical theology at Midway Midwestern

[00:00:54] baps Baptist Seminary he he is also a professor there at the seminary and he

[00:01:01] was served as an editor of a new book that just came out forged from Reformation it’s actually a it’s

[00:01:08] official date is October 31st which if you you know you’re thinking hey that’s

[00:01:14] Halloween but that’s also the Reformation day what we would call the Reformation day and so Cory thanks for

[00:01:20] being on the air today Kevin I am still happy to be here for one it’s nice and cool yeah it’s 105 degrees outside in

[00:01:26] October can you believe yeah yeah and East County is even hotter too and that’s where the scenario so yeah yeah

[00:01:32] I’m more than thrilled to be an air conditioning writer yeah and the cool thing about having Cory on the show here today is I teach at the high school

[00:01:39] they’re associated with Shadow Mountain and you’re right across the street at the seminar that’s right so we have a very good relation though this is the

[00:01:46] first time we’ve met each other but we’re getting along great here so you know the book here it’s interesting

[00:01:52] forged from Reformation probably what comes to most people’s minds immediately is the distinctions between Protestant

[00:01:58] Christianity and Catholicism but that’s not really what the book is about right Cory can you tell us what the book is

[00:02:04] about sure this is a very unique book Kevin this is something that really doesn’t exist on the market right now is

[00:02:10] about 15 different scholars got together in decided to write something that shows

[00:02:15] that dispensational theology is the truest most consistent air of the

[00:02:20] Reformation so instead of an attack or an extreme critique of the Roman

[00:02:26] Catholic Church the books premise is to show that dispensational theology is advanced or excuse me dispensationalism

[00:02:33] advances the Reformation principles most consistently than any other theological system ok so what’s important here for

[00:02:40] those of you listening don’t be discouraged here you’re here in dispensationalism you’re you’re hearing

[00:02:45] Reformation Hermann hermeneutic and you’re thinking wait a second this is way above my head but our job here today

[00:02:51] is to break this down for the average person to be able to understand because there are significant issues they’re important issues so why don’t we start

[00:02:58] Corey with talking about what exactly is dispensationalism I know a lot of people out there the average Christian doesn’t

[00:03:04] really come across this word in sermons frequently and so can you explain what is dispensational or sure I appreciate

[00:03:11] this the question Kevin because it is important to talk about how this before I talk about what it is let’s talk about

[00:03:16] what it’s not okay because it gets mischaracterized a lot sure dispensationalism is not a denomination

[00:03:22] okay so it’s not like say Baptist Presbyterian methodist that actually

[00:03:27] transcends denominations we have dispensationalists are found in each one of those denominations it is not a

[00:03:33] hermeneutic and that’s not the big word you brought up hermeneutic of course is just the art in science of interpreting

[00:03:38] any book for us it’s the scriptures yeah dispensationalism is not a hermeneutic is not an interpretation what

[00:03:46] dispensationalism is is a system of theology that results from reading the

[00:03:51] Bible consistently literal or in other words in other words a consistently literal hermeneutic will result in

[00:03:59] dispensational theology okay so let’s break that down just a little bit further what you just said there a lot of people when they hear the

[00:04:05] word literal they’re thinking to themselves okay you’re some sort of fundamentalist person who doesn’t ever

[00:04:10] look in the Bible and see poetry or see literation or anything like this so can

[00:04:16] you explain explain what a literal interpretation of the scriptures actually is absolutely yeah there’s a

[00:04:22] difference between a literal interpretation and what’s often called a wooden literal interpretation

[00:04:27] we believe in literal interpretation which means which just means that we take the normal rules of grammar and the

[00:04:33] facts of history when we are interpreting scriptures so whatever a verse says we apply it by the words the

[00:04:39] the clause that it is what the words mean and the historical context that it’s in so for instance if we’re reading

[00:04:46] Genesis it says historical narrative it is not poetry we don’t believe it’s poetry it’s really it’s written like

[00:04:52] narrative like history so we interpreted as literal history when you get to the Psalms it is poetry there’s a lot of

[00:04:59] figures of speech throughout the whole Bible but specifically in poetic literature like the Psalms and we understand it as poetry because again

[00:05:06] the normal rules of grammar and the facts of history would show okay this is poetic so there’s going to be lots of

[00:05:12] metaphors lots of figures of speech when you’re reading Paul’s epistles we understand this as doctrine this is a

[00:05:17] pistol ori literature which is just literature that’s a letter that’s being written and we understand when he’s

[00:05:23] writing doctrine that this is literal we understand when he uses metaphors that it’s metaphor yeah a literal

[00:05:28] interpretation is not like this backwoods fundamentalist type mischaracterization where we think that

[00:05:34] God has wings because the Psalms describe God is as shadowing people within his wings no option as a poetic

[00:05:41] expression and in fact it’s very interesting that the guide the scholar that wrote the most on figures of speech

[00:05:46] believe it or not was a dispensationalist II W Bollinger wrote figures of speech used in the Bible and

[00:05:51] it’s still the standard definitive work on figures of speech and he was a literal dispensationalist Wow that’s

[00:05:56] very interesting now what is the what is the mere or that or the counterpoint to a literal

[00:06:03] interpretation of Scripture so if you’re saying hey this is how we interpret it we interpret it literally as the genre

[00:06:08] or as the type of Scripture sure so what would be the other side of that where

[00:06:14] where you’re saying this is what I’m not right yeah it’s called a lo there’s different words for different types of

[00:06:20] interpretations allegorical is one an allegory just simply means of looking for a hidden meeting something deeper

[00:06:27] that’s beneath the surface and that’s where things like in the book addresses this where you would apply things that

[00:06:33] say are are meant for national Israel and apply it to say the church because you take the literal meaning out

[00:06:39] so allegory allegory would be a different type of interpretation another one is a mystical interpretation

[00:06:46] historical theology sometimes gets used as an interpretation what did John Calvin say about this therefore I’m

[00:06:53] going to say the same thing whether he was right or wrong doesn’t matter these are all different types of interpretive

[00:06:58] systems it’s best to stick with the consistent little interpretation because the Bible itself is written in a way and

[00:07:04] it promotes a literal understanding of its of its pages okay so so essentially what you’re saying is we look at what

[00:07:11] the author is saying and we ask what did he mean by this I was not looking for a secret meaning that God under you know

[00:07:19] put under what the what the author said we’re taking it that God absolutely Kevin you nailed it that is it it is we

[00:07:25] want to get to the author’s intention okay what did the author intend when he said say this metaphor what did he

[00:07:30] intend when he said when he’s reporting on history what is the point of the author’s intention that is exactly we

[00:07:36] want to uncover and that’s what the best hermeneutic that does that or the best interpretation that does that is a

[00:07:41] literal interpretation we understand say it’s a it’s not the best way to put it but say poetry we would understand

[00:07:47] literally as poetry yeah you know if it’s prophecy we understand literally as prophecy if it’s unders if it’s a historical narrative like I mentioned

[00:07:53] earlier if we understand literally us that genre okay but as you said that that hits the nail on the head we want

[00:07:58] to get to the author’s intention okay rather than rather than going okay what am I going to get out of this in a sense

[00:08:06] that you know I think even when I was younger we would look read the Bible and

[00:08:12] I’d hear people say now what does this mean to me as if it was a private thing

[00:08:17] as if it was so would you say that that’s not the right approach what does it mean to me versus what is the author

[00:08:23] trying to say absolutely correct in fact that’s something that is a problem say with a lot of small group Bible studies

[00:08:29] it’s called sort of a round robin a reader response and exactly he described it we all sort of take a turn reading of

[00:08:35] Scripture and then go to each person what did that mean to you now what did that mean to you and as you just mentioned that does that’s not the point

[00:08:41] the point is what did it mean to the author who wrote it what did it mean to to Moses when he wrote that what did it

[00:08:47] mean to the Apostle John when he wrote it and ultimately what does it mean from God it’s his word so our what does it mean to us in

[00:08:54] particular really doesn’t matter what does matter is what did the author me when he wrote it now what do you say to the person that says well that takes

[00:09:00] away the personal relationship with God because God is a God who we have a personal relationship with and if

[00:09:06] somebody says well your your your D personalizing it by saying that it doesn’t matter what it means to me

[00:09:13] what would you say to say that’s I don’t think anybody actually lives that way yeah you know as a husband I’m married

[00:09:18] and if I write something to my wife or my wife writes a card to me what matters is what she meant by it and what matters

[00:09:24] to her is what I meant by it that’s how our relationship is strengthened by our communication yeah we have to know what

[00:09:30] each other meant when I say I love you to my wife that’s what I mean by it you know how she might interpret if it’s

[00:09:36] anything other than how when I’m trying to mean by it I better make sure that I’m communicating it very well that no honey I love you and that’s what I mean

[00:09:42] by it so when it comes to the Bible when God tells us something say in Genesis the very beginning of language we’re

[00:09:49] coming up on a break here so I want to pick up on the story here when we come back what you’re talking about and I

[00:09:54] also work we’re also going to explain dispensationalism and I think this is really important and so stay with us

[00:10:00] we’re gonna be right back we’re talking about the Reformation we’re on the 500 year anniversary of the Reformation so a

[00:10:06] very interesting conversation we’re gonna be right back [Music]

[00:10:11] hi this is jason hall president of team home loans a branch of synergy one

[00:10:16] lending i just want to take this opportunity to thank Kevin Kahn over for the profound impact he’s had on mine and

[00:10:22] my wife’s spiritual life as well as being an incredible teacher while our kids were his students his knowledge and

[00:10:28] passion have taught us all how important it is to be defenders of our faith it’s our honor and privilege to support Kevin

[00:10:34] and a show is our sincere hope and prayer that you will continue to learn to be defenders of your faith through

[00:10:39] Kevin’s radio show and through his educate for life teachings thank you Kevin from the hall family and team home

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[00:12:24] thanks for listening today this is educate for life I’m your host Kevin Conover my website is joined Kate for

[00:12:30] life o RG you can listen to our recording of this show and you can pick up previous shows have all kinds of

[00:12:36] amazing radio programs up on my website also on youtube if you’re watching on youtube you can see us here in the

[00:12:42] studio are smiling faces Cory wave to the camera there oh there’s a everybody

[00:12:49] you can wave either one so that takes a

[00:12:54] lot of skill so my guest today is Cory Marsh he is just gotten finished editing

[00:13:01] or helping edit along with a lot of other people involved in a huge project a book called forged from Reformation

[00:13:08] put out by Southern California seminary if you’re interested in the book you can check it out on the website forged from

[00:13:13] Reformation calm and if you’re interested in the seminary you can check them out at SoCal Sam edu that’s socil

[00:13:21] sem edu and cory when we left off from the last segment you were talking about

[00:13:27] how important how it’s important to know what the person writing actually intended in the message can you pick up

[00:13:33] where you left off there yes I’m sure and I appreciate you talking about the seminar because that’s Southern California seminary it’s something that we are very adamant about hermeneutics

[00:13:40] everything gets boiled down to an interpretation how all our our theology all of our doctrinal beliefs at its core

[00:13:47] comes from an interpretation we believe and we believe the correct method of

[00:13:52] interpreting the scriptures is consistently literal that’s the buzzword the key word is get consistent literal

[00:13:57] and when we left off I was talking about the purpose of language and if you just look at Genesis 1 and you would asked

[00:14:03] about you know does that take away from the person the personhood or the personality if you will the end the intimate relationship yeah trying to get

[00:14:09] at the author’s intent yeah if you just look at Genesis 1 and how God spoke to Adam now it’s obvious that he meant for

[00:14:16] Adam to not eat of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil for and that

[00:14:22] day will surely die it was a literal command and he understood it literally and he disobeyed it literally and now

[00:14:28] we’re in this thing called the fall ever since so everything comes down to an interpretation of God’s Word and the

[00:14:35] literal interpretation since the very beginning in Genesis is the correct one I just want to touch on this I know this really wasn’t the

[00:14:41] topic of our of our show today but our program today but I just want to emphasize this one more time Jeremiah

[00:14:47] 29:11 it’s a very very popular verse for I know the plans I have you plans to

[00:14:52] give you a hope in a future and a lot of people they read that and they take great encouragement from that they they

[00:14:58] go hey look at God is looking out for me God cares about me and so you know you’ll put that on a plaque or something

[00:15:04] and yet that message was specifically to Israel so how would you respond to

[00:15:10] somebody who says hey isn’t that meant for me and when you say it’s literal are

[00:15:15] you saying that that’s only for Israel that’s not for me how would you respond to somebody who said something great question in fact that is a verse that

[00:15:21] gets taken out of context so much it is the favorite devotional verse it’s a plaque like you said I have family that

[00:15:28] actually have that on their wall yeah what is most important as you pointed out that primary audience is the most

[00:15:34] important thing when you read a passage who was this addressing there was no church in Jeremiah’s day it was clearly

[00:15:41] God speaking to Israel his chosen people his people how does that apply to me

[00:15:46] of course as we read in the New Testament we are now sons of Abraham through faith so the primary audience

[00:15:52] was national Israel we can never discard that and I can pillai this to me knowing because God has plans for Israel and he

[00:15:59] does a national corporate plan well he also has a plan for me you know this there’s a there’s an

[00:16:04] inference we can take from that but we must be very clear if okay the primary audience the primary application is for

[00:16:11] national Israel in that particular verse and I can infer from that a personal application for me but never discard

[00:16:17] that primary audience okay that’s fantastic so let’s get into dispensationalism now so this is a big

[00:16:22] part of the book is how does reform how does the Reformation and Martin the the

[00:16:28] five SOLAS that Martin Luther describes how does that apply to dispensational

[00:16:35] theology can you explain what is dispensationalism well dispensationalism as I brought up

[00:16:40] it’s a it’s a system of theology someone called a pattern of beliefs of doctrines

[00:16:45] it results from a consistent literal interpretation Charles Riya Riya a famous

[00:16:52] dispensational theologian who we just lost a few years ago he really did the Church of service by breaking it down to

[00:16:58] three major points what he called the cynic one on first was a distinction between church and Israel now that was a

[00:17:05] strategic point for him to put because if you want to know someone’s a dispensationalism just ask him do you believe that God has a plan for national

[00:17:11] Israel and that he still loves them he still has a plan for them if your answer is yes well congratulations your participants a

[00:17:17] Shoeless and you didn’t know it interesting right now are there people that actually believe it that there is no plan for Israel there is there is it

[00:17:24] would be the opposite of what dispensationalism is and what’s called covenant theology and what they would believe is that the church is now the

[00:17:32] new Israel the church has replaced Israel the church has superseded Israel the blessings that were given to Israel

[00:17:39] in the Old Testament are now applied to the church so Israel just happens to be there and there just happens to be this

[00:17:44] Jewish people but there and no more there are no there’s no covenant with them anymore they’re not favored in any

[00:17:51] sense it is now the church so what dispensationalism is it’s the it would be the opposite of that theological

[00:17:57] system called covenant theology okay and and so that that’s the first point you

[00:18:03] said that RiRi gave us a distinction between Church and Azure okay what was the next – well the next – actually he

[00:18:09] said that point first although and he did that for strategic reasons being it if you want to know someone’s a dispensation let’s ask them if they

[00:18:16] still believe in a plan for Israel but that distinction comes out of the most important point a consistent literal

[00:18:22] interpretation when you read you brought up Jeremiah 29 when you read the Old Testament you see prophecies given to

[00:18:28] Israel specifically say Jeremiah 31 verses 31 to 34 is the new covenant is given to the house of Judah and the

[00:18:35] house of Israel clearly not the church from Abraham in Genesis 15 the Abrahamic

[00:18:40] covenant these were given the father of the Jews these were given the Mosaic Covenant say on Mount Sinai in Exodus 19

[00:18:46] those were given to Israel there is no reason to have to apply them to the church Israel still has a place in God’s

[00:18:53] eyes the Old Testament calls Israel the apple of his eye and he still is so that

[00:18:58] would be the first point that leads to that second point which was which would be distinction between church in Israel okay now how would a covenant theologian

[00:19:05] respond to you and justify the idea that hey the promises that were made to

[00:19:10] Israel in the Old Testament actually applied to the church what would be the response well the only way they can come

[00:19:17] to that that interpretation would be by their what I what I described earlier is an allegorical interpretation okay if

[00:19:23] you bypass the literal meaning of Scripture then you can make it mean whenever you want okay was that

[00:19:29] completely arbitrary I mean where did that come from I I’ve heard that the reason covenant theology arose was

[00:19:35] because the State of Israel was not didn’t exist and it didn’t look like it was going to come back into existence

[00:19:41] and in 1948 the Israel became a state again but maybe weren’t expecting that to be the case it looks like they were

[00:19:47] completely good is that true or not that is that is true that is one of the points in fact Martin Luther and addressed this in the book that’s

[00:19:53] something he thought you know that you think Israel is no longer a nation actual nation on the on the map if you

[00:19:59] will by our time so how could the promises be made to Israel if Israel is

[00:20:04] not going to exist right yeah but you know that that interpretation can be traced back all the way to the second

[00:20:10] century unfortunately I’d probably start with the Epistle of Barnabas Wow which wasn’t the real Barnabas that we

[00:20:16] know in the New Testament is a pseudo Barnabas in the second century like I mentioned but there’s the first problem probably the first hint at a replacement

[00:20:23] we call a replacement theology were churches the church now replaces Israel it started from then and it led on

[00:20:30] through the years and from that Kevin unfortunately there has been anti-semitism in the church this is

[00:20:35] where it comes from it comes from a faulty hermeneutic that displaces Israel applies all the blessings not their

[00:20:42] curses but of course the blessings for Israel they ply that to the church and you can kind of see rationally it’s not

[00:20:48] a it’s not a hard step to see how they can start hating Jewish people if they think God is now done with them so

[00:20:55] anti-semitism and we dress this in the book really at its core has a hermeneutic involved and this is why

[00:21:00] it’s so important to to read the Bible appropriately and to actually interpret

[00:21:05] the Bible appropriately because if you’re off base you can end up drawing conclusions that really take you off the

[00:21:12] heart again absolutely absolutely just like you said it can be arbitrary yeah at that point is well whose opinion is correct you know some believe that

[00:21:19] the church replaced Israel some believe that Christ himself is that you know replaced everything that Israel was

[00:21:25] about I’m eating I can go on and on it can now go on to there all the quasi Christian cults yeah do you remember

[00:21:30] David Koresh and the day of the break davidians from Waco Texas right yeah he believed he was the Messiah he asked

[00:21:36] went ahead and applied it to him at what point does it stop now it’s important to realize that covenant theologians of

[00:21:41] course I mean these are brilliant Christian scholars for the most part and they would never go that far but their system does allow for that to happen

[00:21:47] yeah and the line is really arbitrary because I mean you can’t I mean who are you to say where that line that’s right

[00:21:54] absolutely okay well we’re coming up on another break here and we’re making progress here I still want to ask more

[00:21:59] about dispensationalism and we’re going to cover the the five SOLAS that Martin

[00:22:04] Luther expounded on and why they’re so significant and how they’re connected specifically to dispensationalism

[00:22:12] and we’ll talk more about what the dispensations are so stay with us it’s a great opportunity to get educated on the

[00:22:19] 500 year anniversary of the Reformation the split between the Catholic Church in the Protestant church we’ll be right

[00:22:25] back [Music]

[00:22:36] hi this is Kevin Conover will you please donate to educate for life so we can share the truth of God’s Word with kids

[00:22:43] in public schools you can donate online at donate to EFL 0rg the Bible used to be read in public

[00:22:49] schools on a regular basis prior to the 1960s but today most kids are completely clueless when it comes to the content

[00:22:56] and the historical and scientific accuracy of the Bible please help us by donating online at donate to EFL RG hi

[00:23:05] this is Jason hall president of team home loans a branch of synergy one lending I just want to take this

[00:23:10] opportunity to thank Kevin Kahn over for the profound impact he’s had on mine and my wife’s spiritual life as well as

[00:23:16] being an incredible teacher while our kids were his students his knowledge and passion have taught us all how important

[00:23:22] it is to be defenders of our faith it’s our honor and privilege to support Kevin and his show is our sincere hope and

[00:23:28] prayer that you will continue to learn to be defenders of your faith through Kevin’s radio show and through his educate for life teachings thank you

[00:23:35] Kevin from the hall family and team Home Loans hi I’m Marisa Conover and I would

[00:23:41] love to help you buy or sell your home I’ve worked as a realtor for more than 13 years and as a San Diego native my

[00:23:49] passion and experience will help make your move as peaceful as can be call me

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[00:24:01] one 1577 or visit Conover homes calm

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[00:24:40] thanks for tuning in to educate for life I’m your host Kevin Conover my web site is joined I educate for life dot o RG

[00:24:48] and I’d love for you to check us out on YouTube or Facebook and there’s all kinds of opportunities I teach

[00:24:54] apologetics which is the defense of the truth of God’s Word I teach it on a regular basis at a Christian high school

[00:25:00] I teach 11th graders and I also have an online curriculum it’s 40 online classes

[00:25:05] all videotaped in high definition they’re each an hour to an hour and a half long on all kinds of subject like

[00:25:10] creation and evolution on world religions how do we know that Christianity is true and say another

[00:25:16] religion isn’t and how do we know the Bible’s actually God’s Word we deal with all those difficult issues that people

[00:25:21] have questions about great place to really build up your faith and give you confidence in the truth of God’s Word my

[00:25:27] guest today is Corey Marsh he’s with Southern California Seminary and coming out the official date here is October

[00:25:35] 31st Reformation day not Halloween Reformation day excuse me the 500 year

[00:25:41] anniversary and he involved with 15 other scholars put together a book

[00:25:48] called forged from Reformation the connection between dispensational

[00:25:53] thought and the reformed legacy so Corey I wanted to ask you picking up where we

[00:26:00] left off I think we covered two of the the points you said that riri had covered what’s the third one right

[00:26:06] before we get into the dispensation sure Ryrie came up with this his third point of the cynic one on which is just a

[00:26:12] Latin phrase meaning the essentials of the system all have to be together or it falls apart the first being the

[00:26:18] distinction between Church and Israel the sec which is actually really the first which is a consistent literal interpretation

[00:26:24] which leads to a distinction between Church in Israel and the third point was the doxological purpose of history

[00:26:29] doxological big word there doxology just a greek word doxa meaning glory that

[00:26:34] everything God does is for his glory in contrast the covenant Allah covenant

[00:26:41] theology we brought in we were talking about that they would have no problems with every you know with the glory of God being the ultimate purpose of

[00:26:47] everything however they see they tend to limit it to the redemption of the elect that salvation is how God is glorified

[00:26:54] dispensationalists will say no well of course he’s glorified that way yeah but that’s not the only way God’s glorified

[00:26:59] by nature God is glorified even his justice is glorified by those in hell as

[00:27:04] Harsha that is to say he is glorified by everything by his creation by his by his predetermined wills his predetermined

[00:27:14] creeds and wills you know what he determines to come to pass he is get a fired by all of it not not merely the

[00:27:19] redemption of the elect most certain he’s glorified in salvation but he’s glorified by everything yeah so what is

[00:27:25] from a dispensational view what is the point of all this that we’re going

[00:27:30] through all the way back from Adam and Eve all the way to the coming of the second coming of Christ what and what do

[00:27:38] dispensations have to do with it can you explain what are the different dispensations that that

[00:27:43] dispensationalism sure is talking about and this is where dispensation lives is very health very helpful it really

[00:27:48] because it shows a philosophy it’s a philosophy of history if you will it shows in advance that God over time gave

[00:27:56] more revelation and as you gave more revelation a new economy a new era had

[00:28:02] started and then it built on that built on that all the way through till we see the Millennial Kingdom in Revelation 20

[00:28:08] so dispensation the very word dispensation it is sort of an old word the King James Version still uses

[00:28:13] dispensation the word itself comes from the Greek word or economía and it sounds much like our English word economy

[00:28:19] because that’s where we get our word economy from and as Ryrie I appeal to Ryrie a lot because he was such a

[00:28:26] formable dispensational scholar and he came out and really with the with the definitive

[00:28:31] textbook called dispensationalism I was really called dispensationalism today and then he reproduced it in the 90s

[00:28:37] called dispensationalism according to Ryrie a dispensation or an economy is a distinguishable economy for

[00:28:45] the outworking of God’s purpose and it just shows that you know when you just look at the Old Testament clearly nobody’s coming to church anymore with

[00:28:51] their sacrifices right there there’s something that’s different that’s changed you know people when you look at Adam and Eve they were say vegetarians

[00:28:58] and then God gave after Noah and the flood permission to eat meat well there’s there’s different things that

[00:29:04] have happened government was established after the flood as well that wasn’t in the beginning so you see when you look

[00:29:10] at the Bible this advancement of history everything is pointing to an end which we do see coming with the first coming

[00:29:17] of Christ the second coming of Christ and then finally to establish his kingdom in Revelation 20 that seems to

[00:29:22] be the purpose or the end goal of history so dispensationalism through the various dispensations show this

[00:29:28] advancement of history okay so what what are that can you break down the

[00:29:34] dispensations what and how many of them are there what do you know what sure now this is something that even dispensational scholars would disagree

[00:29:40] on it’s an in-house debate yeah a very friendly one yeah this isn’t anything that’s an essential the essentials are

[00:29:45] as I mentioned the consistent little interpretation a distinction between Church in Israel and the doxological purpose and everything out started out

[00:29:52] there’s a lot of wiggle room the classic variety of dispensationalism believes in seven dispensations starting with Adam

[00:29:59] and Eve that being innocence and then moving into conscience and then moving into the next dispensation which was

[00:30:05] government God allowed capital punishment after the flood I eat now you’re talking about under Moses under

[00:30:11] that would be with Noah and the flood okay so when we get to Moses would be before Moses we get to Abraham which be

[00:30:17] a dispensation of same promise in Genesis 12 God promises Abraham that

[00:30:22] he’s gonna be a blessing to the nation and that all the nations of the earth will be blessed through him after Abraham would be Moses the dispensation

[00:30:29] of law something’s different now now we have a national Israel with with an actual codified law after that would be

[00:30:36] what we’re in right now which is traditionally called the dispensation of grace some refer to it as a dispensation

[00:30:42] of the church it’s a distinguishable economy yeah the next one would be the Millennium the

[00:30:47] dispensation blending now that would be from a classic 7 7 dispensation scheme and I don’t mean to cut you off but no that’s okay the difference I was saying

[00:30:53] that there’s differences between scholars on this that’s a classic variety but most all across the board

[00:31:00] all dispensationalist some would say there’s up to 12 dispensations some would say there’s only 3 someone say

[00:31:06] there’s 5 but 3 is the one number that everybody agrees on there’s a dispensation of law that’s clearly

[00:31:12] different in the Old Testament a dispensation of grace which we’re in right now and a dispensation of the kingdom which will be the thousand-year

[00:31:18] reign in Jesus Christ ‘mentally what what is a dispensationalists believe and

[00:31:25] there’s probably a variety of opinions on this too but what is God achieving through having these separate

[00:31:31] dispensations is there what it what is the point that I mean why didn’t he just have the church age why did he have law

[00:31:39] and then the church age and then the Millennial is there a thought yeah you know that’s an interesting question a

[00:31:45] lot of speculation share at this point but I you know I would tend to think that God is very wise yeah as the

[00:31:51] Scriptures definitely tell us fair and he didn’t just dump truck a bunch of information on us at once yeah he

[00:31:57] understood our finite capabilities yeah and so what dispensationalism built on is on the doctrine of progressive

[00:32:03] revelation that over time God revealed more and more of his plan throughout time as creation as humanity grew in

[00:32:12] maturity to be able to stand more to to be maximally glorified by the time we get to the ascending of his son and his

[00:32:20] atonement yeah we now have thousands of years leading up to that of anticipation

[00:32:25] all right so it’s exciting it’s like wow God he did come through with his promises I mean God promises things in

[00:32:31] the Old Testament and for those to be able to be able to demonstrate his faithfulness to promises there obviously has to be time and so he gives promises

[00:32:39] all the way from Genesis on and there has to be this time amount between to show him come through to show him coming

[00:32:45] through all those problems to show that he’s faithful in his promises yeah clearly that would that would that would take years even thousands of years yeah

[00:32:51] and with all the covenants in the Old Testament there’s a lot of promises made there is and this is interesting

[00:32:56] because it’s dispensationalism that actually emphasized the biblical covenants in contrast covenant theology

[00:33:02] now I’m not a covenant theologian yeah but I do interact with them and the covenant theologian will come the

[00:33:08] theology is based on you know two or three theological covenants or I would even say theoretical covenants covenants

[00:33:14] that aren’t found in the scriptures dispensationalism on the other on the other hand emphasizes the biblical

[00:33:20] covenants the government’s given to Abraham and Moses and David and the New Covenant given to Israel even and even

[00:33:27] the land covenant Deuteronomy 29 it said it’s in the dispensational system that actually emphasizes the biblical

[00:33:33] covenants not covenant theology yeah it is ironic okay my guest today is Corey

[00:33:38] Marsh with Southern California seminary and we’re talking about the new book that just came out ford’s from

[00:33:44] reformation check it out you can go to the website forged from Reformation calm we’re gonna continue this discussion

[00:33:49] stay with us we’ll be right back hi this is jason hall president of team

[00:33:57] home loans a branch of synergy one lending i just wanted to take this opportunity to thank Kevin Conover for

[00:34:03] the profound impact he’s had on mine and my wife’s spiritual life as well as being an incredible teacher while our

[00:34:08] kids were his students his knowledge and passion have taught us all how important it is to be defenders of our feet it’s

[00:34:14] our honor and privilege to support Kevin and his show here’s our sincere hope and prayer that you will continue to learn

[00:34:20] to be defenders of your faith through Kevin’s radio show and through his educate for life teachings thank you

[00:34:26] Kevin from the hall family and team home loans to share the gospel with confident

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[00:35:59] [Music] welcome to educate for life I’m your

[00:36:06] host Kevin Conover please visit us on YouTube you can check out our YouTube channel we got all kinds of fantastic

[00:36:11] shows interviews with scientists interviews with psychiatrists interviews

[00:36:17] with not too long ago I interviewed an expert on video game addiction and very very interesting she actually came from

[00:36:23] her marriage almost fell apart because her husband was addicted to video games and he is a very high up in the Navy as

[00:36:31] a psychiatrist so all kinds of interesting stuff on the the channel please check it out I love to have your

[00:36:39] feedback and your comments your questions anything you want to throw my way so my guest today is Corey marsh and

[00:36:45] we are talking about the Reformation and so Corey we’ve been talking about

[00:36:51] dispensationalism we haven’t spent a lot of time talking about the Reformation so far but share with us the interaction

[00:37:00] between the the dispensational theology and how it connects to the Reformation

[00:37:05] sure well dispensationalism as a system as is generally pretty recent

[00:37:13] dispensational principles and understandings can go all the way back to the New Testament as we would say but as a system it’s fairly recent and when

[00:37:21] you say as a system what do you mean by that well as an actual like we have this dispensational scheme like I just went

[00:37:26] to the seventh dispensation okay something like that so like a systematic theology kind of a thing oh well it’s more of a biblical

[00:37:32] theology the only emphasizes ecclesiology the doctrine of the church and eschatology and and connecting all

[00:37:39] the dots between them makes it a system that’s generally recent but so is say covenant theology Oh didn’t exist before

[00:37:46] the Reformation so what we’re showing in the book and it’s right there and actually the subtitle says the best is how

[00:37:52] dispensational thought advances the Reformed legacy we are saying that the

[00:37:57] the principles that are emphasized in dispensational theology are consistent with the Reformation principles like the

[00:38:03] five Sola Sola scriptura us Salafi de Sola gratia Sola Solus Christus Sola de

[00:38:09] la gloria you know by Christ alone scripture alone faith alone to the glory of God alone

[00:38:15] we have chapters devoted to each one of those showing that a literal hermeneutic will result in a proper understanding of

[00:38:22] each one of these interesting ok so when Martin Luther nailed those 95 theses to the to the door of the church and he

[00:38:30] emphasized the five SOLAS which he’s responding to catholic theology at the

[00:38:36] time catholicism at the time what you’re saying is that if you if you take a

[00:38:41] dispensational approach you’re gonna come to that same conclusion well absolutely I mean the five soul is

[00:38:47] really worse than we’re an amalgamation of points of the Reformation wasn’t merely from Martin Luther but he most

[00:38:54] certainly was the the spearhead of the Reformation if you will by by the 95 theses and that’s important about Martin

[00:38:59] Luther and we bring it up in the book is that before he nailed his 95 thesis he actually had what was called he wrote

[00:39:05] something called a dissertation on scholastic theology and a lot of people can trace the Reformation actually to

[00:39:11] that and that was where he was in the Academy saying you know we need to go back to the original languages were

[00:39:17] emphasizing a lot of Aristotle a lot of Aquinas but we have neglected the original Greek and Hebrew so we need to

[00:39:24] get back in our curriculum at the university we need to have biblical language training so he was saying he

[00:39:30] was saying we’re referring to other scholars we’re not going right to the the original absolutely absolutely and

[00:39:36] that’s why Martin Luther really champions the Sola scriptura principle meaning scripture alone and that is what

[00:39:42] the 95 thesis was really based on that and what he would later write he wrote

[00:39:47] three tracks in particular 1520 which really show that manifest ate the manna the manifesto if there was a manifest of

[00:39:53] Martin Luther of Reformation principles it was in 1520 he wrote these three sort of rapid-fire tracks to the Christian

[00:40:02] nobility of the German nation we also wrote one called the freedom of a Christian man and the third of course it

[00:40:10] escapes me right now that’s right well a microphone and I wrote a chapter on it makes me funnier but it is in the book

[00:40:17] in Chapter seven I can tell you that’s a great tease that’s a great book to read the third that’s right but what Martin

[00:40:24] Luther did with this is that he understood if you read scripture literally you’re going to come to say what we call a doctrine of

[00:40:30] the priesthood of all believers Christians no longer need a pope then we never did need a pope yeah

[00:40:35] every Krishna’s Peter says it’s a worry or spiritual priesthood every Christian is a priest you know Christ when he died

[00:40:42] and rose from the grave I mean he’s separated forever any need of any other mediator its Christ alone yeah so when

[00:40:48] you when you flush that out and you stay consistent to it well they’re the the Roman Church and the Pope and all the

[00:40:54] Cardinals and the bishops seem like an obstruction to the New Testament portrayal of the church and so

[00:41:00] ecclesiology or the doctrine the church is a very impactful impactful very

[00:41:05] impacted the dr. church if you will from the Reformation that now we don’t need to be part of this system with this

[00:41:11] supposedly extra holy man we call the Pope every Christians are priests and we have the right to interpret the

[00:41:16] scriptures on our own using a AAA responsible liberal Harmon image that’s

[00:41:22] great and so that’s interesting because you know the Catholic Church that you know emphasized for a long time that you

[00:41:29] can’t really understand the scriptures unless you have somebody who has the the knowledge to be able to tell you what it

[00:41:36] actually means and so we’re coming from a different direction here you’re come you’re coming from the direction that hey you can understand the scriptures

[00:41:42] but the key thing is is you’ve got to understand you’ve got to have a proper hermeneutic absolutely okay

[00:41:48] first Corinthians 14:33 says God is not a God of confusion if he wants us to know him and I and I think we can agree

[00:41:55] that he does right know him in a very special intimate way yeah he’s gonna give us a book which he did for us to

[00:42:00] understand and that doesn’t mean that it’s not complicated at times it most certainly is fair but that also doesn’t

[00:42:06] mean that say the person of a lesser until I couldn’t understand the

[00:42:11] essentials that God is God exists he loves me he sent a son to die for me and I am to trust in him with my life what

[00:42:18] are the essentials of the gospel and anybody can understand that yeah by the way I just it just it just came to me

[00:42:23] now that third track okay actually was a second track that Martin Luther wrote was called the babbling Babylonian

[00:42:28] captivity a church so you got those in it all the three that came out in 1520 if that was capable what what is that

[00:42:34] I’m not familiar with that what is the Babylonian it’s a Babylonian captivity of church if there was

[00:42:40] book that Martin Luther wrote that really you know the showed that a separation a break from the Roman

[00:42:45] Catholic Church was inevitable it was this particular tract called the Babylonian captivity of the church and

[00:42:50] as the title suggests it’s sort of harkens to the Israelite captivity from Babylon well he used as an illustration

[00:42:58] so that’s how Christians are in his day that the Pope in the Roman Catholic Church was the Babylon and they were

[00:43:04] held captive to that and a lot of this is due to the fact that the church would not allow the the Bible to be translated

[00:43:12] into the everyday language that’s right yeah absolutely in fact in his other tract which came out in the same year is

[00:43:17] called it was called the address to the to the Christian ability of a German nation concerning the reform of the Christian estates they had big titles

[00:43:24] back then yeah down he called in three Romanist walls one and the second of

[00:43:30] those Romanist walls won’t get through all three but the second one was that the Pope and there’s a cult what he called a Romanist wall was that the

[00:43:36] Roman Catholic Church built this hedge around itself so nobody can penetrate it and that second hedge of that second

[00:43:41] wall was that only the Pope has true interpretation of the Scriptures well Martin Luther just coming with a

[00:43:46] battering ram of scriptures on his own from from reading the Bible said that’s and that is not true yeah you know we

[00:43:53] are we are all a priest you know Christ has now given us crisis at Christ has

[00:43:58] given us the glory of the Father and himself yeah you know to be able to understand him and we don’t need say

[00:44:03] this other person call that we call the Pope to to explain that to us yeah and that’s part of the reason that the curtain tour when he was crucified

[00:44:11] two separate to show that we are now have direct access to God absolutely

[00:44:16] yeah and so this is all very interesting and when we come back I want to talk a

[00:44:22] little bit more about some of the key points within this text as far as what

[00:44:27] can somebody expect to get out of this that they wouldn’t necessarily get out get it because there’s a lot of books

[00:44:32] written on the Reformation and of course it has to do with dispensational theology but this is it this is a thick book yeah so what is it that somebody

[00:44:42] can expect to get out of this how are they going to grow in their walk with the Lord how is their understanding of the scriptures and the Reformation going

[00:44:49] to change after they’re done reading this book that’s what I want to talk – Corey Marsh about he’s with Southern California seminary that’s SoCal Sammy D

[00:44:57] you and if you’re interested in the book check it out forged from Reformation calm fantastic opportunity to deepen

[00:45:03] your knowledge of dispensational theology and the connection with the Reformation the Protestant Reformation

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[00:45:44] across from SeaWorld six one nine two two two zero seven sixty-six hi this is Jason hall

[00:45:50] president of team home loans a branch of synergy one lending I just want to take this opportunity to thank Kevin Conover

[00:45:56] for the profound impact he’s had on mine and my wife’s spiritual life as well as being an incredible teacher while our

[00:46:02] kids were his students his knowledge and passion have taught us all how important it is to be defenders of our faith it’s

[00:46:08] our honor and privilege to support Kevin and his show is our sincere hope and prayer that you will continue to learn

[00:46:14] to be defenders of your faith through Kevin’s radio show and through his educate for life teachings

[00:46:19] Thank You Kevin from the hall family and team Home Loans hi I’m Marissa Conover

[00:46:25] and I would love to help you buy or sell your home I’ve worked as a realtor for

[00:46:30] more than 13 years and as a San Diego native my passion and experience will

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[00:47:21] e FL RG

[00:47:28] welcome to educate for life I’m your host Kevin Conover if you’ve missed any of today’s show feel free to check it

[00:47:34] out online it’s podcast it’s on iTunes all over the place and all kinds of good information my guest today is Corey

[00:47:40] Marsh with So Cal seminary at So Cal Sam dot o-r-g I’m sorry edu and forged from

[00:47:47] Reformation com is the new book how dispensational thought advances the reformed legacy so Corey we’re on a last

[00:47:55] segment here and you know there’s people out there that I I know are very interested in this there’s a lot of

[00:48:00] people that’s gonna be on people’s minds because we’re on the 500 year anniversary of the Reformation incredibly praise God for Martin

[00:48:07] Luther’s courage to break down those walls and allow us direct access to the Word of God is amazing and so what would

[00:48:16] you say to somebody who’s considering buying this what is that what are they going to get out of this that maybe they had they didn’t know before how is their

[00:48:22] attitude towards scripture and towards the Lord gonna change as they read this book how is it gonna equip them in their

[00:48:29] walk with the Lord well the first thing is you can see it’s gonna make you very buff yeah about 600 pages it is it is no

[00:48:37] joke that is some heavy scholarship there yeah and you’ve got 15 different authors weave into it yeah we have we

[00:48:44] have this incredible array of dispensational scholars in represented in this book we have Tommy ice who was

[00:48:50] the one of the cofounders of the pre-trib Research Center Glenn Kreider a professor at Dallas Theological Seminary

[00:48:57] how is pre-trib pre-tribulation meaning is that a typical of dispensational yeah

[00:49:02] it is now that it is very it’s very unique to dispensational theology that the church will be raptured before the

[00:49:08] tribulation this is based on text in 1st Thessalonians 4 in particular but yeah and you see things like a very

[00:49:14] thundering argument from silence in the book of Revelation from chapter 4 to chapter 22 I believe you believe all the

[00:49:21] chapters in between which is the horrific tribulation on earth there is not a single mention of the church Wow cuz we’re not there yeah and so and

[00:49:27] again that comes back to like you were saying a literal interpretation of Scripture a consistently literal yeah yeah yeah the book and we have I

[00:49:34] mean other scholars involve Kevin Zuber Moody Bible Institute the general editors of this book

[00:49:40] Christopher Kony’s the president of Calvary University in Kansas City Missouri used to be a Calvary Bible

[00:49:46] College and Seminary James Fazzio is the Dean of Bible theology here at Southern California seminary and it’s actually

[00:49:52] our seminary SCS press that published this book but there are so many different scholars involved in this like

[00:49:58] I mentioned a few of them already we have Paul Scharf from dispensational publishing house wrote a chapter there

[00:50:05] just there are so many and you can see just from the endorsements the first few pages of the book is endorsed as we have

[00:50:10] endorsements from David Jeremiah of course an H Wayne house and Edie Heinsohn and Mark Hitchcock these are a

[00:50:17] pulp Ben word these are these are very notable names within scholarship yeah this is not a devotional type reading in

[00:50:25] fact this is a book that we are signing in one of our courses s on the California seminary and other of some of

[00:50:31] the authors are part of seminaries like Patrick Belleville is one of our authors he’s the president of Tindall seminary

[00:50:37] there is Ron Bukowski he is a research professor at Tyndall Seminary in the

[00:50:42] University of Pretoria we have so many different Andy woods as a president of Shaffer Theological Seminary he’s an

[00:50:48] author in this this book is gonna be used in seminaries yes as a course textbook as it should because it’s it’s

[00:50:54] it’s a little bit more advanced this is this is this is theological meat yeah this is something you roll up your

[00:50:59] sleeves and get into and go WOW okay this is something I’m not normally taught in church sure but it definitely

[00:51:05] deepens our knowledge of theology it deepens our knowledge of God’s Word and a deeper knowledge of church history because we’re talking about the

[00:51:11] Reformation yeah and and the argument the the thesis here the overall thesis is what what is the overall thesis I

[00:51:18] mean we have this year is this because because when you guys were thinking about putting this book together what

[00:51:24] was the thought behind it what what was it that you were responding to in our culture that that drove you know writing

[00:51:33] this pleasure you know went probably the most famous all the most notable of the

[00:51:38] five soul ISM Sola scriptura yeah I mean scripture alone this is such a fundamental phenomenal principle from

[00:51:45] the formation however there are those that promote scripture alone that don’t stick

[00:51:50] to scripture alone as their ultimate authority yeah specifically talking about the opposite of dispensational theology which would be covenant

[00:51:56] theology often times most often times they would appeal to the Reformers what

[00:52:01] did the Reformers say about this what did the Westminster Confession of faith say about this these great statements

[00:52:07] and creeds and reformers which are extremely important they would mostly appeal to them we on the other side

[00:52:14] saying we take scriptura literally which means we appeal to scripture alone that

[00:52:19] none that doesn’t mean we don’t also are helped informed by other scholars before they interact with scholarship but we’re

[00:52:25] gonna understand we’re gonna take it we’re gonna be Bereans max seventeen understand the scripture at face value and see what God has seen in his word

[00:52:31] and it’s really dispensational theology that that upholds through all school at Sola scriptura excuse me Sola scriptura

[00:52:37] most consistently more than the other physicists yeah and there’s a lot of attacks on the church today and and on

[00:52:43] the Bible today there’s a lot of people you know higher criticism and so forth and especially with the issues that are

[00:52:49] in our culture like the issue of homosexuality we have pastors being ordained that are homosexual we have a

[00:52:54] lot of churches embracing evolution and these sorts of things does that principal is that any of the the thought

[00:53:02] behind this – or those cultural issues exist very important as they are yeah aren’t addressed in the book however the

[00:53:09] principle behind them is yeah which would be an aberration of not taking scripture at face value when you take

[00:53:15] Scripture face value in in such passages say Livius leviticus 18 and 20 Romans

[00:53:20] chapter 1 1st Corinthians 6 1st Timothy 2 you see these these clearly you know

[00:53:26] written statements that show that homosexuality is a sin yeah for instance since you brought that up yeah that would come from a literal interpretation

[00:53:32] if you abandon a literal interpretation well then how then you can make it me

[00:53:37] whenever you want that’s and then you can have these you know supposed christian authority figures ordaining

[00:53:43] other supposed a christian authority figures that are in a lifestyle that is clearly against yes scriptures commands

[00:53:49] yeah so would you say that a lot of what we see because even within the church today we’re seeing a almost a moral

[00:53:54] relativism where morality is what you make it the whole this is what it means to me

[00:54:01] would you say that that that abandoning the the Reformation hermeneutic and the

[00:54:08] the dispensational hermeneutic here is that that’s what that’s going to lead of course dispensationalism emphasizes

[00:54:16] scripture alone the point that there has to be a standard yeah there has to be a universal standard otherwise then we

[00:54:21] don’t have any right to judge one another on any any choice being made whether it’s something as you brought up

[00:54:27] homosexuality to something as grotesque as torturing babies for fun sure at what

[00:54:32] point do you what point is there a standard say no that is wrong yeah that is sin that is evil or even abortion

[00:54:38] abortion there’s another great example from art from our culture absolutely of a horrible example yeah from our culture but you’re

[00:54:43] absolutely right if you don’t have a standard to stick to which which is the Word of God Scripture and a proper way to read it

[00:54:50] which would be then the normal way of reading any type of literature is what we call literal hermeneutic there is a

[00:54:55] doctrine called the perspicuity of Scripture and one of the chapters in the book is written by dr. Jeremiah mutia

[00:55:00] actually he’s a professor at Southern California Seminary he makes the case that the literal interpretation is

[00:55:06] embedded within the perspicuity of Scripture and it makes sense if we’re gonna say scripture is clear that’s the

[00:55:13] perspicuity of Scripture then it’s a clear a scripture though obviously we come to that understanding by reading it

[00:55:19] at face value a normative plain reading which is what we call literal grammatical historical reading so it’s

[00:55:25] something that hermeneutic that literal interpretation is embedded within that perspicuity of Scripture otherwise scripture wouldn’t be clear I guess we

[00:55:32] can just make it mean when everyone we have back to the allegorical interpretation and we got to go to a guru to figure out what it means or a priest or whatever the caste absolutely

[00:55:38] well Corey we are just out of time here that was a fast conversation and thank you so much for coming on the air I’m

[00:55:43] honored to be here thank you Kevin yeah the the website is forged from Reformation com SoCal seminary

[00:55:50] edu that’s socil sem edu please check it out I can’t give it a higher

[00:55:56] recommendation if there’s any kind of a message we need in the church today it’s that sola scriptura you know we build

[00:56:03] our lives upon the Word of God Jesus Christ said he who hears my words and build and does what I say is like a man

[00:56:11] or a woman who built their house upon the rock and when the storms of life came that house stood firm but the

[00:56:18] opposite would be to build our lives upon sand and it and I and I would argue and I know Cory would to that anything

[00:56:25] less than a solar scripture hermeneutic a literal hermeneutic is building your

[00:56:31] life upon sand so thanks for being with us here today I hope you have a fantastic Saturday and we’ll be with you

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