Handcuffed to An Atheist Part 1 – Michael Shermer

[00:00:01] [Music] welcome to educate for life I’m your

[00:00:07] host Kevin Conover my website is educate for life dot o RG and we’ve got all kinds of fantastic stuff up there on our

[00:00:15] website included classes you can take on the Bible and why why the Bible is true

[00:00:20] all kinds of interviews with experts from all over the world we have people that believe in God and creation like

[00:00:26] dr. James tour one of the top 50 scientists in the world who he’s an organic synthetic chemist and we also

[00:00:34] have interviews with Lawrence Krauss and and others who don’t believe Dan Barker we also have people up on the on the

[00:00:40] program who are former Muslim from Egypt who talks about how supernaturally he

[00:00:47] met Christ in Egypt and he is the he is the nephew of the highest ranking military official in Egypt his name is

[00:00:54] Daniel Messiah and all kinds of amazing interviews love to have you check those out my guests today are really excited

[00:01:01] I’ve got a really kind of a unusual experience I have going on here but I’m

[00:01:07] handcuffed to somebody who I’d like to say has become my friend over time here

[00:01:13] we’ve been 24 hours almost now handcuffed together he is an evolutionist his name is John Rael John

[00:01:19] thanks for being here with us today I don’t know who this man is please get me on cuff every time Johnny

[00:01:25] introduces us to somebody he says we’re engaged and I’m like dude dude stop saying that you’re gonna get rumors

[00:01:30] going he loves that joke and I say and I say he’s the creationist I’m the

[00:01:35] evolutionist and they all frown at him so anyway we’re having a blast he slept at my house last night that was super

[00:01:42] weird that’s the first time I’ve ever slept with a stranger before weird and an awesome first time you haven’t lived

[00:01:48] I have now anyway it’s been exciting and we also have Michael Shermer who is a

[00:01:55] publisher of skeptic magazine and he’s very well known all throughout the country and Michael thank you so much

[00:02:02] for taking the time to be with us today yep okay okay fantastic great we hear

[00:02:07] you there and you know I wanted to just start off I really know all about

[00:02:12] now I’m tired of talking him so I’d rather talk to Mike Mike can you tell me

[00:02:17] you know what is a skeptic what is it you know it’s not an atheist it’s not an agnostic it’s a skeptic what what is

[00:02:24] specifically when you call yourself a skeptic for our listeners what does that mean it just means thinking

[00:02:30] scientifically all scientists are skeptics that is we start with the null hypothesis your claim is not true until

[00:02:38] you prove otherwise so just like we know about how someone who claims that they

[00:02:43] have a fake cure for hiv/aids or cancer or something the FDA doesn’t just give

[00:02:48] them an example of their drug treatment program without it going through clinical trials tests and the

[00:02:55] epidemiological studies and so forth in other words they have to prove that their claim is true the FDA doesn’t have

[00:03:02] to prove that it’s not true and that’s true across all areas of science the so-called consensus on climate change

[00:03:09] for example did not arise out of democratic vote or or asking people how

[00:03:15] they feel about the climate it came from decades of peer-reviewed studies in any

[00:03:22] different fields at all point to this one conclusion and so forth so if you claim Bigfoot is real I say that’s nice

[00:03:29] show me the body and I’ll believe and until then I remain skeptical if you say I think UFOs have landed on earth I say

[00:03:35] that would be super interesting and when you show me the spacecraft or the actual alien bodies and I all believe you can

[00:03:43] tell then that will remain skeptical so actually I think most people are skeptical they have some kind of sense

[00:03:49] that not everything people say is true just because they say it or say it with

[00:03:55] enthusiasm or or say it loudly or with confidence you actually have to have some kind of evidence

[00:04:01] I’m logic some reason and logic behind it and some empirical evidence so yeah so that I mean that makes a lot of sense

[00:04:08] I mean I would call myself a skeptic then now what would you you know where

[00:04:13] do you draw the line though so so if somebody says I’m a skeptic and of

[00:04:18] course we know in science you really because science is inductive you really can’t prove something

[00:04:24] 100% right and so that being the case where do you you personally and what do

[00:04:32] you think is appropriate where do you draw the line between okay I’m skeptical now I don’t believe in all of a sudden I

[00:04:37] mean is it like 51% or how does that work well there is no heart and rule

[00:04:43] about that it depends on which particular science you’re talking about and and how the scientists operate

[00:04:50] within that but in general you might think of it as something like a preponderance of evidence beyond a

[00:04:56] reasonable doubt those kinds of legal terms sort of apply loosely but more specifically scientists have statistical

[00:05:05] tests so for example if I wanted to know if you could detect the say the back of

[00:05:14] a playing card psychically and you know I have two different cards here and I’m

[00:05:20] holding up one at a time and you have to tell me which one you think it is can you and I and we do this day a hundred

[00:05:27] times how many do you need to get right for us to say that it’s beyond guessing

[00:05:32] we know you get 50 out of 100 right just by guessing so how many do you need to

[00:05:37] get right so that it’s beyond guessing statistically speaking and the answer is

[00:05:44] let’s see 674 you need to get 74 74 correct out of 100 for us to say the 99%

[00:05:54] confidence level that it was not just guessing now that doesn’t seem that hard but actually it is pretty hard you guess

[00:06:00] it you get 50 right just just randomly guessing but once you get up to like say 60 right because you’d also by guessing

[00:06:07] get 40 40 right on some other trials once you get up into the higher ranges

[00:06:13] like post 70 the chances of that happening by by randomness is very very

[00:06:18] low so let’s what’s called the 95% confidence level statistically then and

[00:06:25] we say tentatively speaking provisionally we think this is probably true through with a small T you you are

[00:06:32] correct to say that there are no truths or facts in science in terms of 100%

[00:06:37] nothing 100% anything could be overt rarity even the theory of evolution even physics but

[00:06:43] the most fundamental theories of physics so they could in principle be overture very unlikely at this point because

[00:06:48] these things I just mentioned or so well supported for so many decades and

[00:06:54] centuries others are not so well known and it’s entirely possible that they could be overthrowing so it just depends

[00:07:01] okay that’s very interesting and and now personally do you apply this to your own

[00:07:06] life like are you have you ever done skydiving or you know free climbing rock climbing with no ropes or anything like

[00:07:12] that I mean you are you and are you a gambler no I’m not a super high risk

[00:07:18] taker I’m a medium risk taker I’m a bike racer for example and I go pretty fast

[00:07:23] down hills you know steep steep climbs and down hills on my road bike that’s about as rescues across America

[00:07:31] with no sleep didn’t you yeah that was that was pretty high risk but I was in my twenties and you know iris things to

[00:07:38] the impress women and gain status among men their fellow their fellow tribesmen

[00:07:44] okay like that random question didn’t they name an injury after you Michael

[00:07:51] something called trimmer neck it has to do with your neck muscles collapsing yesterday’s of non-stop cycling it’s

[00:07:58] about 20% of riders long distance race across America riders gets trimmer neck so they unfortunately and maybe the only

[00:08:05] thing I’ve ever known well I’ll

[00:08:10] transition into you know you’re riding your bike and you get an accidents like oh sure murder mur yeah well that’s

[00:08:19] that’s great now when it comes to things like origins and so forth and you know

[00:08:25] they’re obviously there are certain things that you know are not proven or maybe don’t meet the criteria that you

[00:08:31] just specified they’re not they’re not at 74% they’re not at 70% they’re not a 60% but yet they’re really see if

[00:08:37] they’re really significant questions I’m sorry I wasn’t the trials right there

[00:08:44] are really significant questions and you still have to have an opinion on them but there’s no

[00:08:49] you haven’t gotten a conclusion yet that that warrants that you know meeting the

[00:08:54] skeptic criteria we’re running up on a break here but when we come back our guest today is Michael Shermer and John

[00:09:00] Rael both of them consider themselves skeptics and we’re gonna just hear from Michael Shermer about what he’s what he

[00:09:07] does with issues that are not settled and or yet important things that he has

[00:09:12] to got he’s got to make decisions on my my name is Kevin Conover I’m your host today on educate for life and thanks for

[00:09:18] tuning in I hope you stay with us we’re gonna have a great show today we’ll be right back

[00:09:24] [Music] hi this is jason hall president of team home loans a branch of synergy one

[00:09:30] lending i just want to take this opportunity to think Kevin Kahn over for the profound impact he’s had on mine and

[00:09:36] my wife’s spiritual life as well as being an incredible teacher while our kids were his students his knowledge and

[00:09:42] passion have taught us all how important it is to be defenders of our faith it’s our honor and privilege to support Kevin

[00:09:48] and a show is our sincere hope and prayer that you will continue to learn to be defenders of your faith through

[00:09:53] Kevin’s radio show and through his educate for life teachings thank you Kevin from the hall family and team Home

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[00:11:39] thanks for listening today this is educate for life I’m your host Kevin Conover my website is educate for life

[00:11:44] dot o-r-g and John I wanted to give our listeners an opportunity to hear where

[00:11:51] you’re coming from also while we have you on the air here and what what both Mike and John what website people want

[00:11:58] to know more about you and who you are and learn more about your views John what what website can they visit well for me I would say go to my youtube

[00:12:05] channel which is you know youtube.com slash skeptically pwned pwnd it’s what

[00:12:11] the kids used to say when playing computer video games and I do a lot of goofy videos I’ve had interviews with

[00:12:18] Bill Nye Tim Minchin I’ve had Rachel bloom on there recently

[00:12:23] Felicia Michaels the lovely Nina Ardley I’m sure some of your listeners pretend they don’t know who that is and and it’s

[00:12:30] a Christian show John wacky channel but for Michael it’s the coolest website

[00:12:39] name of all Michael what is it hmm oh man I have to cost you did you get that

[00:12:45] before anybody else got it yeah we did that a long time ago yeah so skipping

[00:12:51] back on their webpage there we you’ll find all sorts of resources on pretty much any topic that we’d be talking

[00:12:58] about evolution climate change creationism that anti-vaccination you

[00:13:04] know all those things pretty pretty much every issue skeptic which comes out quarterly has a particular theme to it

[00:13:09] of you know recent controversial issues when it was published unfortunately they

[00:13:15] never seem to go away you know psychics con artists you know it’s just it’s just

[00:13:20] every couple months there’s something that’s going crazy the flat earth or is it made something that would come back

[00:13:26] yeah yeah actually truly hard to believe I’ve noticed that myself and I I was

[00:13:32] really caught off-guard by that because I thought that was a done deal I thought you know and it is a done deal you know

[00:13:39] but you can find somebody to doubt anything you know in a large enough population and yeah the internet you

[00:13:45] know there’s they’re granted their own websites and you know we live in a free country that’s fine say whatever you

[00:13:50] want no censorship that let people say whatever they want and then we’ll expose them to the

[00:13:57] Earth’s harsh light of reality that is fact-checking and science it’s awesome

[00:14:02] free reading so so Michael you know this just popped into my head and it’s

[00:14:07] totally off topic from what we’re talking about but I’m just really curious 9/11 was 9/11 an inside job from

[00:14:15] a semantic perspective well 911 was a conspiracy for sure and 19 members of al-qaeda plotting to fly

[00:14:22] planes into buildings without telling us ahead of time that’s a conspiracy conspiracy is do happen what’s more

[00:14:28] likely that or that Bush administration’s on that orchestrated well would have to be thousands of

[00:14:35] people involved and coordinated all that perfectly and and they pulled it off

[00:14:40] it’s exactly the way of his both F and no one has said a word that one person has come forward no one told any friends

[00:14:47] and so we know how conspiracies really were like Watergate for example most powerful Administration in the world

[00:14:53] Nixon’s administration couldn’t even break into a hotel room you know and this is three people involved they

[00:14:59] couldn’t even do that that’s typically how things go with government operations and cover-ups conspiracies amen to that

[00:15:07] yeah we tend to find these things I mean my one-liners you know how we know that solution administration didn’t

[00:15:13] orchestrate 9/11 because it worked you know government government projects

[00:15:18] rarely worked very well so the more people you have involved in a conspiracy and the more complex it has to be to

[00:15:24] come up perfectly the less likely the theory is to be okay not to deny conspiracies we know from NSA leaks for

[00:15:31] example and the recent trove of papers related to JFK assassination is that that our government has done many things

[00:15:38] without us knowing you know plotting to kill Castro for death what more stuff came out about that two weeks ago and it’s like we were

[00:15:46] going to do what yeah no I mean that’s a conspiracy so and my concern about the

[00:15:52] 9/11 truthers is that they’re distracting from the real concerns we have oh it’s like the NSA listening to

[00:15:58] our phone conversations and no things like that it’s like wait a minute I I never we never voted about that we never

[00:16:04] talked about that that was all right yeah I think conspiracy and those are the things that

[00:16:10] had to do with you know real national security issues and freedom issues yeah

[00:16:15] now okay so we left off on the last segment and what I was asking you was okay so so what about decisions you have

[00:16:22] to make right where the criteria has not been met one way or the other but yet

[00:16:28] you have to make a decision about it and do you have any scenarios like that and

[00:16:34] what what is like what I’m trying I’m trying to think off the top of my head here what that would be but I don’t know

[00:16:41] you know I’m just gonna I’m just thinking off the top of my head here let’s say there’s a emergency medical

[00:16:48] situation and you haven’t had time to look into the success of a particular generation okay so the fact is most of

[00:16:57] the decisions we make and right we don’t lay out we don’t sit down and lay out all the evidence and make up pro and con

[00:17:03] list like you’re gonna get married here’s all the programs yeah exactly yeah you know most of the time our

[00:17:11] brains process this information subconsciously and our emotions kind of directed and their emotions sometimes

[00:17:18] our emotions are reliable sometimes they’re not but we comes to human relationships and whether you trust

[00:17:24] somebody or whether you’re afraid of a situation involving other people those kinds of things our emotions and

[00:17:31] intuitions are pretty good where they’re not so good as regarding like gamble gambling risk-taking and things like

[00:17:37] that where we were pretty bad at making those kinds of calculations emotionally and instinctively so there is good of

[00:17:45] actuarial risk tables for exactly one of the things you should fear in life you

[00:17:50] know shark attacks and terrorist attacks are not at the top of the list they’re not even in the top hundred you know

[00:17:57] really cardiovascular disease cancer automobile accidents those are the kinds of things that are more likely to take

[00:18:04] you out and the shark attack but our intuitions it’s this is called the availability here is the availability

[00:18:10] bias that is what when I ask you what are you most afraid of your brain automatically goes the most available

[00:18:17] example you can think of which is probably whatever you want somebody’s last night and so that and

[00:18:23] that’s what we we over something that’s obedient fail emotionally salient oh yeah I saw that thing about terrorism

[00:18:29] boy I’m really worried about where as you know people dying from cancer or car

[00:18:34] accidents you know unless it’s a spectacular explosion from a car chase or something that’s not going to make

[00:18:39] the news and because it happens so often those are the things that we should be most worried about

[00:18:45] so our instincts get skewed by emotional cognitive biases yeah okay yeah that

[00:18:52] makes sense now so my question then is okay so if this is the case that our

[00:18:57] that you know let’s say you’re coming upon a situation and and you haven’t looked at the criteria for whether this

[00:19:04] particular situation deserves your skepticism or not I don’t know what a

[00:19:10] shark attacks in a place that you’re visiting right how many shark attacks happened here how do you come to a

[00:19:16] conclusion about what you should do or do or are there points where you just go

[00:19:21] you know what I don’t know I’m just gonna go for it let’s just yeah and

[00:19:28] that’s true also in science it’s okay to just say I don’t know that we don’t have to have an answer for everything in

[00:19:34] effect we usually don’t have answers everything and so like this take the UFO claims for them 95% of all UFO claims

[00:19:43] that that have been made are explained and and by that I mean even UFO

[00:19:50] believers agree with me that 95 percent of these things are explicable so we’re all actually debating is just the

[00:19:57] remaining 5% that we’re not we’re not sure what they are now what I do is to say I don’t know and leave it at that

[00:20:04] yeah what the you go follow this does is they take that 5% and turn it into an entire worldview you know aliens have

[00:20:11] come here the government’s covering it up and so forth so the lesson I try to

[00:20:16] give people to think Oman is it’s okay to just add or no we don’t know everything yeah so no this is true this

[00:20:23] is true for many claims about medicine you know kay yeah you’re sober like there’s a lot we just do not know

[00:20:29] yeah so I we’re coming up on another break here but I want to end on a tease for our audience so they they’re forced to stay

[00:20:34] over to the next break to the next segment here so when it comes to the

[00:20:40] issue of God right we’re all gonna die I mean you know unless you’re Jesus we’re

[00:20:45] all gonna die and we’ve got to decide we got to make a decision about whether God exists in heaven is real and hell is

[00:20:52] real or it’s not it’s not like something that we can just be like withhold judgment yeah I don’t know right because

[00:20:58] the decision one way or another is pretty significant and so what I want to

[00:21:03] hear from Michael is where he stands on that and what what his skeptical criteria here and then also you know is

[00:21:11] it ever worth just going you know what maybe I’m just gonna go with this because the risk is too great if it’s

[00:21:19] not true and I want to talk a little bit about Pascal’s wager so stay with us my guest today is John Rael who I’m

[00:21:25] handcuffed to and it’s been a surprisingly pleasant experience my wife

[00:21:31] would say otherwise right but he gets more of my attention than her but but on

[00:21:36] the other hand and my guest is Michael Shermer who is a publisher of skeptic magazine and we’re going to hear from

[00:21:42] him and his perspective on this would stay with us we’ll be right back

[00:21:48] I bring money I will bring my [Music]

[00:21:53] hi this is Kevin Conover will you please donate to educate for life so we can

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[00:22:21] G hi this is Jason hall president of team home loans a branch of synergy one lending I just want to take this

[00:22:28] opportunity to thank Kevin Conover for the profound impact he’s had on mine and my wife’s spiritual life as well as

[00:22:34] being an incredible teacher while our kids were his students his knowledge and passion have taught us all how important

[00:22:40] it is to be defenders of our faith it’s our honor and privilege to support Kevin and his show is our sincere hope and

[00:22:46] prayer that he will continue to learn to be defenders of your faith through Kevin’s radio show and through his educate for life teachings thank you

[00:22:53] Kevin from the hall family and team Home Loans hi I’m Marissa Conover and I would

[00:22:59] love to help you buy or sell your home I’ve worked as a realtor for more than 13 years and as a San Diego native my

[00:23:07] passion and experience will help make your move as peaceful as can be call me

[00:23:13] at [Music]

[00:23:25] this is throughout all ages ministry with Joe and Stacy if you would like to equip me to share the gospel with

[00:23:30] confident in a physical and offensive way we would like to teach you through the proclamation of the gospel how do

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[00:23:51] facebook or visit us at YouTube and throughout all ages thanks for tuning in

[00:24:00] to educate for life I’m your host Kevin Conover my web sites educate for life.org I’d love for you to check it

[00:24:06] out there’s all kinds of awesome classes on there especially if you’re somebody who’s looking to study the Bible I’m on

[00:24:12] apologist I teach at a Christian high school I also teach at a seminary and I teach why the Bible the evidences for

[00:24:19] the truth of the Bible so I’m a skeptic when it comes to atheism and and so my

[00:24:24] guest today is John Rael he’s with sceptically pond am I saying that right it doesn’t really matter

[00:24:32] youtube.com slash skeptically poem wnd okay and and am I allowed to mention

[00:24:39] yeah yeah and we’re with BuzzFeed BuzzFeed is really the one that put this whole on so we’re honored to have them

[00:24:46] here with us today they’re producer and Jordan and we’ll be to hearing from him shortly but John and

[00:24:53] I have been handcuffed for 24 hours creationists and evolutionists we’ve wanted Creation Museum we’ve gone to the

[00:24:59] Natural History Museum and we’ve gone we’ve had a Bible study together and it has sure been a one-of-a-kind experience

[00:25:07] I’ll tell you so anyway Michael when we left off in the last segment you know Pascal’s wager

[00:25:14] says that you know basically he says let’s say God is a 50/50 proposition and

[00:25:20] you can’t make a decision you the evidence is does not warrant a decision in the positive and he says look it if

[00:25:28] God exists the the you should wager that he does exist because the benefits far

[00:25:34] outweigh the positives both here on this life and then in the afterlife you know what

[00:25:42] why don’t you just wager he exists it’s better than the alternative and how would you respond to Pascal well first

[00:25:50] of all which God which religion it the right one you know you’re making that argument from a Christian point of view

[00:25:56] but sir– billion there’s a billion Muslims who who think that you’re going

[00:26:02] to hell for believing the wrong religion that they do not accept Jesus yeah as a

[00:26:10] the Savior he was not resurrected and so forth none of that happened they

[00:26:15] believed their their guy went to heaven on a winged horse and all that your guy did not you know die and come back three

[00:26:21] days later so if in their eyes that you gambling the Christian making the

[00:26:28] Christian bet is a catastrophe you’re going to spend a lifetime in hell for

[00:26:33] making the wrong decision and of course Jews you know maybe they’re a little more aligned with you but they have the

[00:26:39] Old Testament after all that’s their foot but they don’t accept Jesus as a savior either now they’re not quite as

[00:26:46] different from from you as as Muslims but and they don’t accept Mohammed either but mm-hmm

[00:26:51] but again which and those are just those are the three main monotheism’s right there

[00:26:56] not to mention Buddhism and Hinduism and Jain is and it’s so further all the other world religions and there’s

[00:27:02] another billion or so people right so can I ask you a question about this Michael so yeah so you know I think that

[00:27:09] there’s that there are certain criteria we can evaluate so for example for me I look at Mormonism and I see that it from

[00:27:17] an archaeological perspective there’s no findings that actually that actually support the book at all and so I I weigh

[00:27:24] these in my mind and I go ah you know what it’s far more likely based on the amount of archaeological finds that

[00:27:30] actually show support some of the history record in the Bible it’s far more likely that the Bible is true then

[00:27:35] the Book of Mormon is true so I’m gonna I’m gonna take Mormonism off the table is that your mind is that not

[00:27:41] appropriate in that area it’s a good start but it’s not that it’s either all true or all fault

[00:27:47] colonel is is in part a work of some history it’s all so literature poetry and so on and has

[00:27:55] in moral customs and moral homilies and whatnot you know the idea that Moses

[00:28:01] existed and the the Exodus and all that stuff archaeologists believe that probably

[00:28:07] never happened there was probably no such person there’s not a single archaeological scrap of evidence 40 of a

[00:28:14] good group of people wandering around the desert for four years there’s no have you or have you have you heard of

[00:28:21] the movie patterns of evidence and that came out of there so go you know I just

[00:28:29] follow the debates in Biblical Archaeology review like covers this stuff that it’s to neutral yeah they’re

[00:28:35] friendly to the idea of archaeological support biblical stories and they find

[00:28:41] some yeah and others they find none so again it’s not black and white it’s not like either the Bible is all true or

[00:28:47] it’s not not y’all know wouldn’t you say you have stories like like you know the

[00:28:55] flood story or Jonah in the whale to ask whether those are true or not in my

[00:29:01] opinion you’ve missed the point of the story it’s a story it’s like Star Wars or Harry Potter or or the Lord of the

[00:29:09] Rings it has a message that you’re supposed to get from the story ask you mystery is true you’ve missed the point

[00:29:16] of the story already can I ask a

[00:29:21] question about that so wouldn’t you so based on what I said about Mormonism like Emma and you said that’s a good

[00:29:27] start so when you say which God write for me I look at it and I go you know

[00:29:34] I’ve studied Islam pretty thoroughly I’ve studied Mormonism pretty thoroughly I’ve studied Buddhism pretty thoroughly and I look at all these and I go you

[00:29:40] know man no not gonna work not gonna work not gonna work and I get down to Christianity I go you know what there’s

[00:29:46] a lot of support here and and and so I mean when you say you know which God for

[00:29:53] me I go yeah Yahweh the Christian God but for you you just don’t feel that the evidence this is substantial enough in

[00:30:00] order to in order to get to that you know that the criteria that you need in

[00:30:05] order to actually think hey you know what something is true okay now you’re talking about something slightly different does the existence of God at

[00:30:11] all yeah it’s a slightly different question and which religion is more or less likely to be true in my mind as an

[00:30:18] outsider now I was once too important to get evangelical Christians for seven years oh wow in my mind there’s no no

[00:30:25] scientific evidence it’s better for any one of those religions and the others although summer you know Scientology is

[00:30:32] is pretty you know daft and goofy and at the bottom of the list yeah and maybe

[00:30:37] Judaism I would put you know toward the top you know there’s a lot of secular Jews I know or something like this

[00:30:43] yeah or pantheous and you know that that seems more reasonable I think I’m kind of a psychic fielder but now the

[00:30:49] question of what what’s actually you know true in terms of you know God’s

[00:30:54] existence there you have kind of a different set of arguments yeah right here that you used so there’s you know

[00:31:02] the arguments for atheism are slightly better than the arguments for theism okay to the point where if you already

[00:31:09] believe you really want to believe it’s in your DNA so to speak it’s just what

[00:31:14] you do you can find good arguments there’s plenty of them that you know theologians make the first cause and

[00:31:19] crime mover and the ontological argument yeah that’s what I do or even it’s a fine-tuned argument you know those are

[00:31:25] pretty good arguments that they in my opinion our side is slightly better counter arguments but they’re not

[00:31:30] horrible arguments if you want to believe other reasonable arguments to make okay but from a scientist

[00:31:36] perspective it’s better to just say the null hypothesis is that God does not exist now what’s the evidence that he

[00:31:43] does to overthrow the null hypothesis and I appears not enough okay and so so

[00:31:49] here’s where I’m come down to okay so we’re all gonna die so so in your mind

[00:31:56] when you think about this what do you think about do you do you think to yourself you know because you’re a

[00:32:02] different type of are you consider yourself an atheist yes in terms of me

[00:32:09] hey really speaking I assume there’s no guy that’s according you know so you’re you’re different illogically speaking

[00:32:14] technically speaking I’m an agnostic in the sense that I don’t think ultimately it testable hypothesis I don’t be running I

[00:32:22] don’t think we’re waiting for one more experiment to come in decide one way or the other like yeah and a change or

[00:32:27] something okay so so saying I think in the sense that it’s not ultimately testable okay so we’re almost out of

[00:32:34] time here I just want to get this last question and so from your perspective when you look at you know we all got to

[00:32:40] face death so to you the criteria isn’t met but do you think to yourself oh you

[00:32:48] know maybe I should just go for this you know I know I don’t feel the criteria is

[00:32:53] met but hmm I’m gonna bet on this is

[00:32:58] there ever a point where you go you know I’m just gonna jump just go for it or you you kind of like no way it’s not gonna happen

[00:33:03] no it doesn’t even cross my mind okay

[00:33:09] that at all no okay see but if it did that’s not an argument for God to do no

[00:33:15] and I agree with you for emotional yeah thank you yeah and I totally understand

[00:33:23] that it’s definitely not an argument for God’s existence I just thought because you’re a different type of AC then I normally

[00:33:28] speak to because you’re you’re approaching this from such a like quantifiable you know measurable kind of

[00:33:35] a thing here that you’re evaluating it’s very interesting so well that is an interesting point why are you looking for natural evidence for a supernatural

[00:33:43] thing yeah why am i yeah Kevin okay so you know what I’m gonna answer that but

[00:33:49] we’re out of time here with Michael so we just hit the hit the limit here Michael unless you wanted to stay on for

[00:33:54] another segment if otherwise uh you know I understand let’s do it great okay so

[00:34:03] we’ll pick up on the next segment with John’s question and we’ll be right back

[00:34:09] hi this is jason hall president of team home loans a branch of synergy one

[00:34:14] lending i just want to take this opportunity to think Kevin Kahn over for the profound impact he’s had on mine and

[00:34:20] my wife’s spiritual life as well as being an incredible teacher while our kids were his students his knowledge and

[00:34:25] passion have taught us all how important it is to be defenders of our faith it’s our honor and privilege to support Kevin

[00:34:32] and his show it is our sincere hope and prayer that he will continue to learn to be defenders of your faith through

[00:34:37] Kevin’s radio show and through his educate for life teachings thank you Kevin from the hall family and team Home

[00:34:43] Loans we would like to teach you through

[00:34:54] the proclamation of the gospel how do

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[00:36:15] [Music] welcome to educate for life I’m your

[00:36:21] host Kevin Conover my guest today is John Rael and also Michael Shermer a really privileged to have these guys on

[00:36:27] the radio with me today and they’re both skeptics so they’re they’re atheists

[00:36:32] they come from a completely different perspective than myself but I love talking to people that have different perspectives because it gets

[00:36:39] boring talking to people that agree with you all the time right so and I think the best way to get at truth is to hear

[00:36:44] other people’s opinions is so that you’re not just trapped in a bubble and I believe actually as a Christian that

[00:36:51] your your faith is made stronger when you actually research it out and you you find out whether the faith that you have

[00:36:57] is built on something that is worth having faith in and John you ask me the question why are you looking for

[00:37:03] something why are you looking for something supernatural in the natural world that’s an interesting question

[00:37:09] so can you expand on that what do you mean when you say meaning you’re looking for evidence for something that is

[00:37:17] outside of what we would consider to be evidence I mean technically couldn’t God

[00:37:22] have made this whole universe exactly in the way that it looks like there was no

[00:37:28] God I mean okay so I here’s my reasoning behind this basically the reason I look

[00:37:34] for evidence for a supernatural God in the natural world is because the Bible specifically says that the supernatural

[00:37:40] God interacted and does interact with the natural world and so what I look for

[00:37:46] are basically the footprints in the sand so if if God is real and the Bible is

[00:37:52] true then I should be able to see that the Bible matches up with science and

[00:37:57] history and logic and these sorts of things and so although I don’t consider

[00:38:03] myself I’m a finite being I can’t know anything 100% if I could I’d be God and

[00:38:09] I’d be all-knowing but I do believe kind of like Michael Shermer is saying I feel though that it’s more probable that God

[00:38:16] exists than that he doesn’t and I and I feel overwhelmingly confident that that’s the case up there in the 90 95

[00:38:22] percent range but I also think to myself even if it was only 51 percent even if I

[00:38:27] only thought you know what it’s more rational to believe that God exists and that doesn’t exist I still think it would make more sense to believe in God than

[00:38:34] not believe in God even if you were only at 51% that’s that’s just the criteria I’ve used Michael yeah so John’s point

[00:38:43] is a pretty deep one and epistemologically speaking that is I like to say there’s no such thing as the

[00:38:49] supernatural or the paranormal there’s just a natural than normal and all the stuff we haven’t explained with natural

[00:38:54] and normal means yet now isn’t that a naturalism of the gaps though no because

[00:39:00] all we have is natural world or in our senses to detectives is all we can do

[00:39:06] yeah but that’s that’s begging the question if you assert that all you have is the natural world then of course

[00:39:13] you’re never going to know it was a supernatural world what would that even mean how would you define it how could

[00:39:19] you even text something that not regardless of whether you could check it or not doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist

[00:39:25] right I mean so if you assert that all we have is the natural world then you’re saying you have an absolute knowledge of

[00:39:31] something that you don’t have an absolute knowledge of now all you can say is that if there’s another world out

[00:39:38] there something beyond the event horizon though the entire expanding universe or

[00:39:43] something like that if we discovered it and it would just be incorporated as part of the natural world or takes

[00:39:48] lightly less controversial subjects and that is the idea of ESP connected to

[00:39:55] quantum consciousness so this is an actual theory that there’s a quantum field that we know exists in which you

[00:40:02] get these kind of spooky action at a distance between subatomic particles that are fired through this double slit

[00:40:07] in this double slit experiment now Deepak Chopra and a few others believe that consciousness is primary in the

[00:40:13] universe and that we’re all connected through this quantum field in which our neurons fire and some synchronous way

[00:40:20] and and we can kind of read each other’s minds and that sort of thing now I believe this I’m skeptical of it but if

[00:40:27] it were true if it turns out that’s true that was not the ESP in a sense of extrasensory perception or paranormal

[00:40:35] psychic power that would just be part of how the brain works and how physics works it would this peak quantum consciousness and I agree

[00:40:44] so and let’s say we want to discover the creator of the universe yeah well what

[00:40:50] criteria would you use you know well he can be can perform miracles well like what I mean there’s a lot of things we

[00:40:55] can do now that our ancestors could never do that seemed miraculous and iPhone would be miraculous to a

[00:41:01] Neanderthal or flying a jet plane or you know almost anything we could do and so carry that forward you know it’s at some

[00:41:09] point soon and hopefully we’ll be curing cancers by sequencing the genome of the tumor in the genome of the host and then

[00:41:16] coordinating those and then turning off the genes and so on and and you know that that will look like a miraculous

[00:41:23] thing but it’s just that we just now we know the technology behind it and we implemented well sure and I and I

[00:41:28] understand that I mean I I agree with that completely but I still I still am

[00:41:33] looking for okay the Bible says these God did these things these certain

[00:41:38] things happen this happened this happened this happened and so when I’m making an evaluation of whether I should believe in God or not I’m evaluating all

[00:41:46] these things you know the whole Lee Strobel case for Christ so you know you have a you have a whole bunch of building blocks that you build upon and

[00:41:52] you go okay well I’ve got this block I’ve got this block I’ve got this block you know what I’ve decided it’s time to

[00:41:58] believe and and you know I like you said there’s there’s no black and white as

[00:42:03] far as there’s no exact criteria for what you need in order to believe but

[00:42:09] for me and obviously not for you but for me I look at it and I go man I’ve got enough evidence to believe and and I

[00:42:15] don’t see why I why I shouldn’t right I I look at it and I go not only does it

[00:42:21] make not only you know I heard Dennis Prager say once he said you know what it’s worth believing in God even if even

[00:42:28] if I didn’t have enough evidence to confirm or deny it still makes sense to

[00:42:33] believe in God because how how it impacts the world now I know that’s a whole another debate which john and i

[00:42:40] got through with it with his friend Ross but anyway that’s that I don’t know if that answers your question John about

[00:42:46] why I’m looking for the the supernatural in the natural world but that’s what why I would say yeah

[00:42:52] I think in part the reason you’re doing so because we now live in the age of science where you can’t just assert a belief and leave it at that you know now

[00:42:59] people can just say well I reject your assertion what’s your evidence otherwise I’m not going to believe and that that’s

[00:43:06] the world we live in that’s the Enlightenment world of the Scientific Revolution well I’m not just asserting

[00:43:11] it I’m not just asserting it I just something like it’s like you said you know you have the ontological argument

[00:43:17] you have the first cause you have the prime mover and I believe there’s a lot of things in DNA the whole intelligent

[00:43:24] design argument so I don’t I don’t believe I’m actually just asserting something I believe these are very take

[00:43:29] something central to your belief and that is that Jesus died and it was resurrected sir the dead now I assume

[00:43:36] you that that you assert that there are good arguments for this and yet people just as smart as you or maybe even

[00:43:42] smarter rabbis that are you know Jewish rabbis I have been studying this for decades and and Muslim Imams who study

[00:43:50] this for decades and they reject it they don’t accept it is so good how can these

[00:43:56] other religions don’t believe it well you believe in the same God is you they get the God of Abraham I would say it’s

[00:44:02] not the same well in Jewett Judaism it is but I would say that Allah is not the same God is Yahweh but regardless that’s

[00:44:08] irrelevant so I would say every every individual has a reason why they believe

[00:44:13] what they believe in and you know you can’t really broad brush why all these Muslims don’t believe for

[00:44:19] some for many muslims they’ve never heard otherwise if they live in iran it’s illegal to share the gospel and it’s also illegal to argue that what

[00:44:27] about the expert jews and muslims who have really studied this and they’re

[00:44:32] like there’s no good evidence for a resurrection yeah so so the difficulty there what you’re saying right there is

[00:44:37] that your your broad brushing right your broad brushing the jews and the expert muslims because I know many Jews that

[00:44:43] have actually become Christians once they heard the the evidence for the for the gospel right and so there you go I

[00:44:52] interviewed a guy right here in my studio who converted out of Judaism because he said the evidence was

[00:44:57] overwhelming that Jesus was who he said he was dr. James tour it was a Jew who

[00:45:03] Verde he’s now a Messianic Jew and so you know we’d have to take each of these people individually in order to say why

[00:45:09] did this person do this I have another friend who wouldn’t convert out of Islam because she was actually actually feared

[00:45:15] for her life and I was talking to her about Jesus she said don’t ever talk to me about Jesus again and it wasn’t because she actually told me you’re

[00:45:21] causing me to doubt my faith and so yeah but millions of American Jews and

[00:45:26] European Jews sorry millions of Jews and Muslims European Jews and Muslims who

[00:45:32] are not threatened they don’t convert most of them don’t well they don’t know they don’t know yeah baby of course they

[00:45:39] know no you’re not allowed to read Isaiah 53 and in the in the synagogue anymore you know you’re not allowed to

[00:45:44] read that because it’s so compelling evidence for Jesus as the Messiah right

[00:45:50] in my opinion the evidence that the resurrection would be one of the most

[00:45:55] extraordinary claims ever made because one hundred hundred billion people that have lived before us had died and never

[00:46:01] come back the idea that one of them did is an extraordinary claim how extraordinary is the evidence not at all

[00:46:07] it’s it’s not even as good as the evidence that these are exist well whether it’s extraordinary or not I mean

[00:46:13] you know there’s a girl that has two heads she lives here in America right if that happened 2,000 years ago about to

[00:46:20] edit I don’t know about the two-headed girl what’s that oh no no look it up it’s it’s real it’s it’s it’s they did a

[00:46:26] TV show on it and everything my point oh well no this is a two-headed

[00:46:32] girl for real and so that my point is this let’s say that happened a thousand years ago and you said hey you know what

[00:46:38] I don’t believe that there is no such thing as a 200-person this person wrote about it Herodotus wrote about it it’s a

[00:46:44] bunch of garbage everything he says is fictional right you can’t say that because something happens commonly or

[00:46:50] uncommon ly that it’s true or false what what determines something is true or false is the evidence and if you look

[00:46:56] some at lots of people who explore the evidence they go hey this evidence absolutely justifies belief in Jesus

[00:47:04] Christ you look at somebody like Josh McDowell or Lee Strobel or even somebody like Francis Collins right who was a

[00:47:11] total atheist and and and did it or or you know some of these other guys Anthony flew

[00:47:16] who decided you know what they you know the fine-tuning of the universe that gives me good evidence for a belief in

[00:47:22] God and then one step later I got to decide okay who is this guy right and so

[00:47:27] anyway I’m not I didn’t really want to get into a debate I wanted to hear your perspective where you’re coming from but

[00:47:33] but uh yeah in my opinion I think skepticism is the appropriate position

[00:47:40] on that until proven otherwise I would be impressed for example if it’s God

[00:47:46] healed amputees it is moot crew back some limbs I mean you know the idea that prayer heals people and it’s always

[00:47:52] stuff that that could happen on its own anyway you know tumors go into remission that’s good thing but something that

[00:47:58] would be unmistakable that that was never happen on its own like a limb growing back you know salamanders can do

[00:48:05] it why can’t humans do it or what about what about life coming from non-life I mean but I mean are you skeptical about

[00:48:12] that because we had we have had no evidence whatsoever that life can come from non-life and yet for evolution even

[00:48:18] to get off the ground you have to without God you have to have life from non-life and yet that’s completely anti

[00:48:23] scientific I mean the law of biogenesis very specifically says all life comes from preexisting life and so how do you

[00:48:30] respond to something like that there are about half a dozen cogent theories about

[00:48:36] the origins of life and it’s a different branch of science and evolution and biology and there’s no consensus on

[00:48:43] which ones most likely to be the correct one so there I remain skeptical of all of them until there’s more evidence for

[00:48:52] which does the likeliest one that have occurred so four billion years ago or so it’s a hard problem to solve is the

[00:48:58] evidence mostly erased so from the geological record because of the cycling

[00:49:04] cycle so here’s here’s my question here’s my question in regards to that because I had this same question with another friend of mine and he said look

[00:49:11] at Kevin I withhold judgment on this until it’s it’s until it’s proven now what if God is real but you’ve xed him

[00:49:19] out and then you say science will eventually figure this out but if God is

[00:49:24] real that means science will not eventually figure it out so what you end up doing is you white hand

[00:49:30] god have created the laws of nature and they created life on the exact same way

[00:49:35] that gravity creates solar system yeah and I’m not saying it’s impossible no one thinks God is out there actively

[00:49:41] forming comets and meteors and planets now the Bible actually the Bible actually says he’s not but but I’m I’m

[00:49:48] not unlike why not apply that to life you know God set up the laws of nature to act assert to create complex life

[00:49:55] well I’m not arguing that he couldn’t do that I’m just saying what did he do I’m not saying you know he didn’t use

[00:50:01] evolution I’m saying what’s most probable so what what I’m looking at when I look at this situation you say

[00:50:07] I’d like to see a limb grow back from you know nothing that really impressed me well I look at the life coming from

[00:50:14] non-life and I go that’s far more extraordinary than a limb growing back and well Francis Collins you just

[00:50:20] mentioned he accepts all of evolutionary biology but I’m that’s a biogenesis it’s not evolutionary so so even Francis

[00:50:27] doesn’t think that you know and poof a miracle happened he always turns to the side

[00:50:33] well he makes his only papers on that yeah I mean the big bang isn’t the Big

[00:50:38] Bang is a poof and it happened I mean that’s what the Big Bang is right yeah all the 28 billion light years across

[00:50:44] came from absolutely nothing that’s the claim and it came with it without a designer or purpose or anything it’s

[00:50:50] just completely I mean to me if you want to talk about let’s become a skeptic I’m like that’s crazy that’s a magic came

[00:50:57] from nothing that’s Lawrence Krauss is claimed yeah well because no just means something

[00:51:02] different plain nothing nothing no nothing yeah there’s always the first of all

[00:51:08] there’s always quantum energy in the empty space it’s not really a key and

[00:51:14] that goes all the way back to the very beginning you know looking back you want to see kashibai what was there before the big

[00:51:20] things or there was anything about that that refutes your own argument there can’t even be a god no that now that’s

[00:51:26] not true because because this is the whole you can’t have an infinite regress so if nothing can’t make anything then

[00:51:34] well you have to start the causal chain somewhere and why stop at a guy why not go back one more step and say well where

[00:51:40] the god comes well with that well there’s no need to because the Bible says that God is eternal so what you have I want to know

[00:51:46] maybe the universe is eternal maybe it’s an eternal cycling of BIGBANG’s and so

[00:51:51] forth what’s wrong with that argument well the the what’s wrong with that argument is that the science doesn’t support it if you look at it we know

[00:51:58] that the universe is actually expanding at a faster and faster degree and the gravitational pool is not strong enough

[00:52:03] to pull everything back into the center again and so science itself supports the idea of a of a start to the universe and

[00:52:12] also that the universe did not infinitely exist I mean we know this from the fact that we’re losing the heat

[00:52:17] in the universe what’s that I’m sorry

[00:52:25] did you say something Michael hey guys yep there we go I lost you there for a

[00:52:30] second okay yeah I started this universe you know that’s not to say that there weren’t universes prior to our is the

[00:52:37] key births our universe that’s also entirely possible but come on that’s purely faith and that’s how you’ve just met and that’s just an argument as God

[00:52:44] did it okay so I guess there’s no argument at all that’s just a circle no

[00:52:49] but it’s actually a deductive argument because we know that nothing can’t make anything if nothing existed at one time

[00:52:55] then nothing would exist now so what’s your luck well how would God create

[00:53:01] something out of nothing I don’t have to answer that question in order to yes you do hold on hold on hold on because we’ll

[00:53:10] chain there well you have to stop the causal chain because in order for anything to exist there has to be

[00:53:16] something that’s always existed otherwise you would have nothing exists you can’t have an infinite chain of regress it’s got to stop somewhere and

[00:53:22] what a Christian believes and what the Bible actually teaches is that the causal chain stops at God he’s the

[00:53:28] unmoved mover yes I know but that’s an assertion that effect well it’s deductive it’s a logical

[00:53:33] argument it’s it’s it is an assertion you’re right it’s axiomatic but it makes sense right so the question is did

[00:53:40] nothing make everything or did something make everything that the Bible says God

[00:53:49] is eternal he’s the uncaused cause what so I can fight a book

[00:53:55] something else that doesn’t mean it’s true no no I’m not I’m not saying it means it you know I mean you know

[00:54:00] Buddhist literature you know it’s all infinite and eternally oh there is no

[00:54:05] beginning well yeah but that doesn’t jive with science that’s the problem the universe oh yes this universe our

[00:54:14] particular bubble universe there’s a very good chance that there are a near infinite number of you other universe

[00:54:19] okay now you just use the word a very good chance right so what where do you

[00:54:25] get this idea that there’s a very good not it’s not from science science doesn’t give us any idea about other universes existing mileages cuz well I

[00:54:32] just predict that other universes book called multiverse assert sir it’s a

[00:54:42] hypothesis based on no scientific evidence though yes it’s based on a

[00:54:48] combination of the corners no it’s based on the need to have multiple universes because we’re losing

[00:54:59] you Michael oh hey hey I’ve gone way over here just because this conversation

[00:55:05] is so great but but we’re running out of time Mike John any uh Michael where can

[00:55:14] they find you okay yeah well captain calmness is our webpage Michael Shermer

[00:55:20] calm and core scientific american I write a monthly column for them so I am

[00:55:26] calm just type in Shermer you’ll find my columns there and find bookstores

[00:55:31] everywhere carry my books that’s all I know what book do you have coming out next book that’s called heavens on earth

[00:55:37] at the scientific search for the afterlife the immortality and utopia that comes out January night pre-orders

[00:55:45] are available oh nice thank you so much Mike for for being on the show today really

[00:55:51] thank you money for 36 years banking has helped people like you experience

[00:55:56] everything that’s great about San Diego Fastlane makes fishing and watersports fun and easy Hobie Cat kayaks feature a

[00:56:03] popular pedal system not paddles keeping your hands-free as you fish you no longer need to tow and gas up a boat to

[00:56:10] experience great San Diego fishing call or come in for your no charge demo ride six one nine two two two zero seven

[00:56:18] sixty-six Fastlane sailing calm at Dana Landing marina across from SeaWorld six

[00:56:23] one nine two two two zero seven sixty-six hi this is Jason hall president of team home loans a branch of

[00:56:30] synergy one lending I just want to take this opportunity to think Kevin Kahn over for the profound impact he’s had on

[00:56:36] mine and my wife’s spiritual life as well as being an incredible teacher while our kids were his students his

[00:56:41] knowledge and passion have taught us all how important it is to be defenders of our faith it’s our honor and privilege

[00:56:47] to support Kevin and his show it is our sincere hope and prayer that he will continue to learn to be defenders of

[00:56:53] your faith through Kevin’s radio show and through his educate for life teachings thank you Kevin from the hall

[00:56:59] family and team Home Loans hi I’m Marisa Conover and I would love to help you buy

[00:57:05] or sell your home I’ve worked as a realtor for more than 13 years and as a

[00:57:10] San Diego native my passion and experience will help make your move as peaceful as can be call me at six one

[00:57:18] nine two five one one five seven seven that’s six one nine two five one 1577 or

[00:57:26] visit Conover homes calm

[00:57:32] hi this is Kevin Conover will you please donate to educate for life so we can

[00:57:37] share the truth of God’s Word with kids in public schools you can donate online at donate to EFL

[00:57:43] 0rg the Bible used to be read in public schools on a regular basis prior to the

[00:57:48] 1960s but today most kids are completely clueless when it comes to the content and the historical and scientific

[00:57:54] accuracy of the Bible please help us by donating online at donate to EF lu RG

[00:58:01] [Music] [Applause]

[00:58:13] you