[00:00:00] now here’s your host Kevin Conover bring your time and bring your shame welcome

[00:00:06] to educate for life I’m your host Kevin Conover my websites educate for life dot o-r-g and I’m really looking forward to

[00:00:14] the show today we have a great show coming up if you were listening last week I actually had Walt Brown on my

[00:00:19] program and he is a he is an engineer a former engineer all kinds of credentials

[00:00:26] a professor and so forth Walt Brown was and he is living in Arizona he’s the one

[00:00:33] that wrote the book in the beginning and he has all this scientific evidence and

[00:00:38] support for the flood from geology and this year this today this week I have a

[00:00:44] guest on my show bill Ludlow also from Arizona and before I bring him on I mean you can see us here on the screen if

[00:00:50] you’re streaming live let me tell you a little bit about him he studied at Lansing Community College this is from

[00:00:56] bill’s website Michigan State University and he’s also been an avid avid amateur geologist paleontologist and fossil

[00:01:03] collector for many years he’s the owner of his own entertainment company dirty goat productions you can check that out

[00:01:08] at dirty goat comm and he spends much of his time in Arizona studying the

[00:01:14] landscape searching for fossils and fishing very good he is a member of the Geological Society of America Southwest

[00:01:21] paleontology Alliant illogical Society and the National Center for Science education

[00:01:26] he currently volunteers at the Arizona Museum of Natural History where he teaches human origins his discoveries of

[00:01:32] 270 million year old mammal-like reptile tracks in Arizona on the I don’t know how you pronounce that Mon Golan is that

[00:01:38] right bill yeah okay rim were presented at the regional Geological Society of

[00:01:44] American convention in Flagstaff Arizona in 2018 and he’s been awarded a

[00:01:49] five-year permit by the federal government to continue studying and collecting data in that region and just

[00:01:55] a disclaimer bill is an atheist and you know I love having different people from

[00:02:01] different perspectives on my program I’ve had Lawrence Krauss also who teaches at the University of Arizona

[00:02:06] I’ve had Dan Barker I’ve had Michael Shermer and a variety of other atheists

[00:02:12] or Buddhists or lumps on my program and I love to hear different people’s perspectives I am specifically a young earth creationist I

[00:02:19] believe that scripture and science supports that more than it does any

[00:02:25] other particular perspective and obviously build disagrees with me but but I want to hear what he has to say

[00:02:31] and I find I learn a lot when I listen to what other people think and their experiences and their the evidence they

[00:02:38] present so looking forward to this bill thanks for being on the program today thanks for having me can I tell how I

[00:02:43] found you yeah absolutely okay yeah you know I I’m kind of an online course junkie I take a

[00:02:49] lot of these free online courses and then added and I get weekly emails from I believe it was class central.com

[00:02:56] clicked on the link and I was looking at

[00:03:01] the courses on evolution and there was an ad actually for one of your classes I don’t buy the way that’s that’s udemy

[00:03:08] puts those up not me okay I saw an ad for one your course is I clicked on it

[00:03:14] you know what’s your website and checked it out and was able to look at some of your preview videos and things like that

[00:03:21] and so you know I I just thought I would contact you see if you know basically

[00:03:26] fact you had the radio show and everything if you might want to have a discussion on this yeah yeah I think it’s awesome and then and Bill told me

[00:03:33] that he has debated Kent Hovind last year so I think that’s incredible too if

[00:03:38] you don’t know who can’t Hovind is he’s been teaching creation in it on the creation/evolution subject forever

[00:03:44] he’s a slightly infamous now after having rebelled against the US

[00:03:49] government and then ending up in prison for a little while but regardless I think that’s pretty cool that you

[00:03:56] debated him and so what I’m curious to know bill is first of all how did you get started down this road when did you

[00:04:02] when did you decide that you were an atheist did you grow up what kind of family did you grow up background he to grow up in and then what was that

[00:04:08] process like where you finally came to the conclusion no I think the evidence supports she is amande and so forth you

[00:04:14] know I I was baptized Lutheran I was actually confirmed Episcopalian

[00:04:20] okay sorry for that we had a quick technical difficulty there but bill you were saying in college there was a guy

[00:04:27] that your roommate had a friend who was really big into the young earth Queens

[00:04:32] roommate yeah and yeah he was a real bigger the young earth creationist and I guess I just didn’t realize before that

[00:04:38] people like that existed actually believe the world was 6,000 years old you know the church that I went to

[00:04:45] growing up as a child didn’t teach that so never had been really exposed to it and then with the internet in the 90s

[00:04:52] you know I found out about Kent Hovind and joining some of these message boards forums and things where they discussed

[00:04:58] this type of thing and it just was really interesting to me that yeah

[00:05:03] trying to find out why people believe the way they did here absolutely yeah so so I I’m you know I’m lean young earth

[00:05:12] creationist that’s my perspective and for me I’m very evidence-based so to me I look at the evidence and I go this is

[00:05:18] by far the most compelling argument and I’m relatively familiar with the science

[00:05:25] that pertains to the issues I mean people can there’s there’s tons to learn out there so I’m always open to new

[00:05:30] information but like I said I’ve interviewed people like Lawrence Krauss I’ve interviewed a lot of the skeptics out there and so I’ve listened to the

[00:05:38] debates so what for you is is the most I don’t know what is the most compelling

[00:05:45] evidence for you that the universe where the earth is millions billions of years

[00:05:51] old what about the scientific dating myth is that there used radio noise that

[00:05:56] we use and so forth radiometric dating yeah I mean as far as you know how we

[00:06:02] determine a minimum and maximum age of the earth I mean you believe correct me

[00:06:08] if I’m wrong that basically in the way Bishop Ussher described it was through

[00:06:15] or researched you know determine the age of the earth was through genealogies in the Bible yes yeah yeah and I believe

[00:06:23] the Bible is has been around just a fraction of a second and geological time

[00:06:30] you know and that it could be used as a science book so go ahead Wow let me let me ask you

[00:06:39] real quick though I mean what is your understanding on how we date the earth how do you believe

[00:06:45] that scientist states you well I know that generally speaking there’s a lot of different ways that people will go about

[00:06:51] dating either the earth or the universe or whatever it might be so everything has to be dated differently so for

[00:06:56] example you have to use carbon-14 dating on things that we’re living but you can’t use carbon dating on something

[00:07:02] that’s not alive like a rock so you might use potassium-argon dating or whatever you’re going to use different

[00:07:08] Radio isotopes based on what it is you’re trying to measure and and depending on how far back you want to go

[00:07:13] affects also so carbon-14 dating is only accurate supposedly to about 200,000

[00:07:18] years so you’ve got to switch to another radioisotope in order to get back to if

[00:07:23] you want to go older than that you can’t use carbon dating so and then there’s of course there’s the issues of people

[00:07:31] people are looking at rates of rates of particular things so one of the newer

[00:07:37] ways of trying to evaluate the age of the earth or the age of living things is based on what’s happening within

[00:07:44] genetics so the mutation accumulation rate within genetics it’s one of the newer methods of trying to date things

[00:07:51] so I know there’s a lot of different ways of trying to date things but what I

[00:07:56] found a lot of times is that certain assumptions or assertions are just taken for granted without a lot of digging

[00:08:03] into exactly how they came up with that and it ends up being circular a lot of it ends up being circular because

[00:08:08] they’re assuming the ages are old before they’ve come to that conclusion with the

[00:08:14] evidence and so they use the evidence to justify that justify the method and the

[00:08:19] method to justify the evidence but but and so far I haven’t heard

[00:08:27] something that’s ultra compelling as far as the age of the earth is concerned I haven’t heard a lot that is very

[00:08:33] compelling to me but you know we’re coming up on a quick break bill and I’ll let you respond what I just said here

[00:08:39] bill Ludlow is on the is on the air with me here today and he is a atheist as

[00:08:46] well as obviously if he’s an atheist typically Old Earth geology I am a young

[00:08:52] earth I take the young earth position so we’re having a great discussion about that stay with us we’ll be right back

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[00:09:50] thanks for listening today this is Kevin Conover I’m your host on educate for life we’re on the radio down here in San

[00:09:57] Diego Southern California Cape Rays 12:10 a.m. we’re also on North County FM 106.1 and then we’re screaming all over

[00:10:04] the place I’ve got all kinds of YouTube Facebook periscope and then bill bill my

[00:10:10] guest today is also putting this up on his channel if you’re if you’re interested I love this kind of

[00:10:15] discussion it’s very interesting to me and I love talking to different people who are experts on these different

[00:10:21] issues so bill has a lot of experience in paleontology and geology and bill I wanted to give you the opportunity to

[00:10:27] explain to me how things are actually dated here I’m very interested to hear what you have to say sure yeah

[00:10:34] my website too by the way I haven’t mentioned is creation science fiction comso and you know I offered a challenge

[00:10:40] a couple years ago you’ve heard of Ian Juby probably he dedicated a and Juby

[00:10:46] okay you heard of him I haven’t yeah the create young earth creationists out of Canada you know that no scientific

[00:10:52] dating method used to date the age of Earth or no scientific dating method at all actually has ever given us an age of

[00:11:00] six or even six to ten thousand years so I want to explain how we do actually

[00:11:07] date the earth cosmos Episode seven that’s a great series if you haven’t seen that they talk about this a lot in

[00:11:14] there but you know Claire Patterson was a geochemist who was the first to give us a pretty accurate estimation that

[00:11:21] there its age after determining the age of a meteorite but we could only really determine the maximum age from that so

[00:11:27] the way we date the age of the earth today is twofold we measure the minimum age of the earth by calculating the

[00:11:33] amount of radioactive decay and zircon crystals so zircon crystals are very tough we use a uranium-lead dating on

[00:11:41] these while rock or sediment around the crystals may have eroded a long time ago the crystals remain attacks so we can

[00:11:48] find them almost in like second-generation sedimentary rock so zirconium and uranium are very similar

[00:11:55] so during the formation of these crystals some uranium manages to bond with the zirconium and get trapped

[00:12:00] inside uranium decays very slowly into let which is a lot different from zirconium

[00:12:06] and therefore wouldn’t it bond it in the first place so we know it wasn’t present in the original crystal so the more LED

[00:12:13] you find in a zircon crystal the longer it is using the radio deck radioactive decay law and the known half-life of

[00:12:21] uranium we can then determine the minimum age of the earth so currently the oldest known zircon crystals are

[00:12:27] about 4.4 billion years old which gives us a minimum age so determining the maximum age of the earth is done by

[00:12:34] dating meteorites since they would have formed about the same time as the earth back when our solar system formed

[00:12:39] so samples from the Diablo Canyon Diablo meteorite which is right here crashed in

[00:12:44] Arizona at 50 thousand years ago left a big crater east of Flagstaff show an age of about 4.5 three to four point five

[00:12:51] eight billion years so okay so yeah let me make sure I understand what you’re

[00:12:57] saying so you’re saying that using radioisotope dating and right using what

[00:13:03] was it uranium you said this is using uranium uranium let dating this call

[00:13:11] okay so arrange radium changes to let okay so uranium is the unstable isotope the parent isotope and where the the

[00:13:18] lead is the daughter isotope and do you know the half-life of uranium to lead

[00:13:24] what it is it’s over a billion years I don’t know if that top of my head okay okay so so I wanted to interject here

[00:13:34] but you can I don’t want to stop your thought process there you do want to finish what you were saying well all I

[00:13:40] would have to say is you know most of the creationist arguments I see against this they just use the word assumptions

[00:13:46] a lot they use the word assumptions over and over and over like like assumptions are a bad thing I mean and you know we

[00:13:53] are using what’s called we they know the half-life of aluminum and we’ve measured it sure so we’ve only measured some of

[00:13:59] these things for maybe a hundred years but but we used what’s called the radioactive decay law and and every

[00:14:06] nuclear power plant every nuclear everything that we have relies on that law it is a scientific law it is not and

[00:14:14] it is math matically calculated and it just holds true for all those different items some

[00:14:22] things like carbon-14 can be affected by the environment and other things there

[00:14:27] can be subject to contamination but things like a zircon crystal and these things are sealed we can tell if they’ve

[00:14:35] been they become contaminated so we aren’t making assumptions on contamination we aren’t making

[00:14:41] assumptions on the radioactive decay rate using a scientific law yeah I’m

[00:14:49] very interested in what you’re saying because this to me is a real kind of crux point what you’re making

[00:14:55] it’s it’s a linchpin issue because I’ve interviewed dr. John Baumgardner he’s a geophysicist and he’s done Studies on

[00:15:03] this and what they’ve found is because this is this is a counterpoint to what you’re saying I’d like to really get to

[00:15:08] the truth of this in diamonds which are considered like zircon are very very

[00:15:14] hard they’re almost impossible to contaminate simply because they are so hard and typically people geologists

[00:15:20] assume that diamonds were formed at the very lowest strata in earth so over 500 million years old and so when you get a

[00:15:27] when you get a diamond you don’t because diamonds are formed from coal right and coal is formed from plant matter and

[00:15:34] plant matter has c14 in it so the plant matter turns to coal the coal has c14 in

[00:15:40] it which is a radioisotope and then it turns into diamonds now the diamonds are supposedly formed millions and millions

[00:15:46] of years ago and so what you would expect is that because C 14 s half-life means that it can only last for 200,000

[00:15:53] years you would expect that there would be no C 14 in diamonds but what they found is tons of C 14 inside diamonds so

[00:16:00] the question becomes how is it possible if C 14 only lasts two hundred thousand

[00:16:06] years before changes into N 14 how can you still have C 14 in diamonds which cannot be contaminated and are

[00:16:11] supposedly formed in the bottom layers of the earth and so for me that that again there is okay someplace

[00:16:17] one of us is missing a puzzle piece something is wrong here because I’ll give you another example of this same thing so the USGS the United States

[00:16:25] Geological Survey actually took coal seams and they had them laid out all the

[00:16:30] way from the top all the way to the bottom and again coal has C 14 from plants right well what you would expect

[00:16:38] is that if these layers were laid down over millions or billions of years you

[00:16:43] would expect that as you go down into the earth on the very bottom layers the coal seams at the bottom would have no C 14 because they were formed first and

[00:16:50] they’re the oldest and as you move up you would see a steady increase the amount of C 14 in the coal seams until

[00:16:57] you got to the top where you would have the most C 14 still left but what they actually found in the coal seam layers

[00:17:02] is a similar amount of C 14 all the way from the top to the bottom and so a what that speaks to is evidence that all

[00:17:09] these these layers were actually laid down very very quickly over a short amount of time rather than very slowly

[00:17:17] over a long amount of time and so I’m hearing these different evidences back and forth and for me that’s why I I tend

[00:17:25] along with other facts I tend to lean towards young earth creation because that would be explained well if there was a worldwide flood where all those

[00:17:32] layers were laid down all at the same time then that would from a predictability perspective that’s what

[00:17:40] young earth creation theory would would postulate and then that is what you see

[00:17:47] in the actual coal seams I don’t know if that makes sense what I’m saying yeah the only problem is diamonds are

[00:17:55] not actually formed from coal you know diamonds and coal are both forms of carbon but diamonds are not

[00:18:02] formed from coal in fact most of diamonds on earth are way older than you

[00:18:08] know any coal deposits but that just proved the reason the you know because

[00:18:15] diamonds form naturally deep in the earth out of carbon but they’re not formed from coal and you couldn’t carbon

[00:18:21] date a diamond because it was never everything anything that was alive and in equilibrium there should be 49 right

[00:18:29] if it’s millions of years old we know c14 in the time not necessarily because because radioactivity can modify the

[00:18:35] carbon in the diamond and it can create what we would measure as c14 in a lab

[00:18:44] but it’s not was never created in the environment it’s created right there in the diamonds so regardless but

[00:18:50] regardless because c14 can only last about 200,000 years before it decays into n14 because diamonds are found as

[00:18:58] far as I understand it on the lower levels the the bottom of those those strata we would expect that there would

[00:19:05] be no c14 in them and yet it’s there which means that if diamonds are formed you know at the beginning of earth right

[00:19:12] then we would expect there would be no c14 which means it couldn’t have been millions or billions of years ago but

[00:19:19] the formation of c14 in diamonds from contamination from radioactivity could be it could have been way more recent

[00:19:26] that’s what I say that whole yeah coal

[00:19:32] is something that’s modified you know

[00:19:37] again when we do when we do carbon-14 dating things cannot be condemned they cannot be modified you don’t you don’t

[00:19:45] you don’t do we don’t carbon date fossils and like metamorphic rock that

[00:19:52] have been changed by heat and pressure and everything else like that it we just we know that doesn’t work it’s also why

[00:19:58] we don’t test coal with the carbon-14 dating month we would date colbert’s by

[00:20:04] using both absolute in relative dating methods

[00:20:10] based on the layer that they’re in we wouldn’t date the collator by carbon dating it at all it would be silly my

[00:20:16] guest today is bill Ludlow and he is a living in Arizona he’s a amateur paleontologist and geologist and he’s

[00:20:22] very very much I don’t want to I don’t want to use the word amateur as somebody who doesn’t know he’s talking about because he’s been doing this for a long

[00:20:28] time and he doesn’t know what he’s talking about so stay with us we’re having a great discussion about the age

[00:20:33] of the earth and Bill Ludlow you can check him out on his website too which

[00:20:38] is creation science fiction org bill I take offense to that I take offense to

[00:20:44] that website now okay no duck no I’m just kidding I take no offense okay we’ll be right back

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[00:21:48] thanks for listening today this is educate for life I’m your host Kevin Conover and if you’re watching online I

[00:21:53] hope you’re enjoying the program so far and if you have comments or stuff you want to shoot my way or you want to

[00:21:58] shoot Bills way please do so I love to engage in this sort of discussion I’m actually having a discussion on the age

[00:22:04] of the earth on my Facebook page right before this this show today and I find

[00:22:10] it very interesting a lot of people with different perspectives so I think we can all take a little bit of humility and learn from one another and I’m listening

[00:22:17] to Bill here and listen to what he has to say so bill you said you wanted me to give you my my best argument for the age

[00:22:23] of the earth okay so I so particularly for me and I’m

[00:22:29] sure this is the way it is for you to is that my my viewpoint isn’t established

[00:22:34] on one main point it’s it’s a variety of data points that I feel all together make a make a case that the earth is

[00:22:41] young and my particular view is about 6,000 years old so I guess I’ll just pull out a variety of different data

[00:22:48] points and just say these are some of the things that that do it for me and one of the big ones is the Bible itself

[00:22:56] because the Bible I believe although it’s a religious book it started out as

[00:23:01] a history book and so I believe that the people that wrote it we’re actually writing down real history and the reason

[00:23:06] I think that is because if you look at a lot of the stories in the Bible they’re actually verified by art by archeology

[00:23:13] just about a month or so ago I just met the guy that discovered Jericho and he’s

[00:23:19] doing all this archaeological dig on Jericho now they found you know Hezekiah

[00:23:24] is tunnel they found so much stuff I just talked to another guy who he’s

[00:23:30] doing all this work on Egypt and they’ve now found in 15 different tombs a recording of Moses and the Red Sea event

[00:23:39] they have it 15 different Egyptian tombs that have this out on the walls so when I look at all this historical stuff and

[00:23:46] it’s very validated and then as I continue to look at it to me it makes a lot of sense that the history recorded

[00:23:53] in the Bible is an actual real history that’s one of the points another point

[00:23:59] would be that it’s interesting to me that according to evolutionists we’ve been here for two hundred thousand years

[00:24:05] as human beings but we have no writings no consistent calendars writing systems

[00:24:11] historical records that go back past 6,000 years so it’s interesting that we

[00:24:16] would be human for 195,000 years 194 thousand years and then all of a sudden

[00:24:21] we start writing what why were we as smart as we are today but we didn’t start writing 190 4000 years to me I

[00:24:28] look at that and that to me is good evidence that we’ve only been here for around 6,000 years one of my favorite

[00:24:35] ones and I’ll stop with this want to let you respond I had a really interesting discussion

[00:24:40] with dr. John Sanford he’s a Cornell University professor he was there for 30 years he has 30 different genetic

[00:24:46] patents very very smart guy and he he basically looked at the genetic did

[00:24:52] excuse me the genetic decay rate in humans and what he found was that based on the rate at which mutations the

[00:25:01] genome is decaying basically their point mutations it’s a hundred to three hundred per generation we actually

[00:25:08] couldn’t go back too far because if we had been here as long as evolutionists

[00:25:13] say we have already gone extinct because of the decay of the genetic you know a genome so population geneticists there’s

[00:25:19] this guy named Kendra Shaw he’s a really famous population geneticist he’s not a Christian not a young earth creationist

[00:25:24] but he has this statement why are we still alive based on the current genetic decay rate

[00:25:30] we shouldn’t even exist anymore because we are accumulating genetic problems too

[00:25:37] quickly so when I put all this stuff together piece together along with a quite a few other data points I feel

[00:25:43] like the younger position is the most credible position both scientifically and historically ok you know the

[00:25:53] argument though that there are things in the Bible or things in Genesis the Old Testament that are real could also be

[00:26:01] used to support any Abrahamic religion I mean the Moslems could say the exact

[00:26:07] same thing and so could the Jews so you know there’s a there’s a term in English

[00:26:13] writing and I can’t remember what it is we’re you know some fiction or or when you’re trying to make a fiction type

[00:26:20] book seem more real they use real places and events now you know I do think that

[00:26:25] there is some historical truth to the Bible this definitely are I think that a

[00:26:30] lot of the interpretations of that though as far as the disasters and things like that attributed to God were

[00:26:37] just because of basic lack of understanding you know of what may be

[00:26:43] you know the stories that we’re told down about this you know that were embellished and and made to kind of fit

[00:26:48] the religion so I do believe again that there are you know truths in the Bible as far as

[00:26:54] historical truths but I I think that the entire Genesis one all that type of

[00:27:01] thing is more allegorical you can get some good things out of it but it’s it’s not meant to be fact so I’ll give you

[00:27:09] another example so for example there’s something called a Sumerian king list and it’s it’s completely extra-biblical

[00:27:15] it’s nothing to do with the Bible they’ve found 15 copies of this in different locations through archaeology and each one mentions places that are

[00:27:23] listed in the Bible and mentions people listed in the Bible so what it’s doing is it’s an extra biblical reference it’s

[00:27:28] an additional testimony confirming that these people were real and the places were real and you can look at that I’ll

[00:27:35] give you another example there are over 400 flood stories now that have been found all over the earth that are specifically talking about a worldwide

[00:27:41] flood where a family was saved and animals were rescued and there was a judgement so the question becomes how do

[00:27:47] you get 400 flood stories from all over the earth right that all have a very similar story there are there are

[00:27:53] differences but tons of very very similar parallels all talking about the

[00:27:59] same event and and I just don’t see how

[00:28:04] after looking at these different evidences that we can just brush it off

[00:28:09] and say now everybody just talks about floods there the stories are too similar

[00:28:15] and evolution or long a geology it’s not just that you have to prove that there

[00:28:21] was long ages you you have to explain why these there’s these other things going on that that do not fit the theory

[00:28:31] right they don’t fit the data points they don’t match up but an example is the hadrosaur that mary schweitzer

[00:28:36] recently found and the t-rex she found and the triceratops that Mark Armitage found with all with soft tissue in them

[00:28:43] why do we have dinosaurs that suppose they have been here for 65 million years but then have soft tissue inside of them

[00:28:48] so I think I’ll run out of time

[00:28:54] soft tissue in dinosaurs has been known about since the 1970s we’re not sure I

[00:28:59] mean Mark Armitage hasn’t really put his uh I know his paper was period he never dated the fossil though are

[00:29:06] never published a date for it people are actually not even sure that it’s a triceratops horn there’s been a lot of

[00:29:12] speculation it may be a bison horn I’ve spoken with Mary Schweitzer myself

[00:29:18] I did a Google hangout like this with her over a year ago and you know Mary’s a Christian and she’s an event Lucretia

[00:29:27] Evangelic Oh Christian she considers herself she’s just not a young earth creationist and she gets really upset

[00:29:32] when people I’m not kind of adopt or work and everything because she spent 10 years and I’m not I’m not angry with you

[00:29:38] no but she spent 10 years studying this and she came up with you know the reason

[00:29:44] why the soft tissue was preserved and you know soft tissue she was a type of tissue it doesn’t mean it was soft and

[00:29:51] stretchy when it was found soft tissues organic material soft tissue your body but that have been preserved yeah but

[00:29:57] you know now you can look at the microscope she can see yeah it was soaked acid to make it right but it was

[00:30:03] soaked in acid to dissolve the minerals and prepare it to be able to do that she

[00:30:08] also found that iron was a preservative and there’s been four other independent studies done that have the same

[00:30:14] conclusion since she published that a couple years ago so I mean I’ve read the detail we have honestly but you know

[00:30:22] also you talked a bit about again the Bible and the you know the Kings list and like that I mean there are stories

[00:30:28] like Moby Dick out there that that have actual places in them and things but we

[00:30:34] can’t take the whole story as literal we can learn things from it but we can’t take the entire thing is a literal I am

[00:30:41] sure I understand the perspective you’re saying but we can either we can either say none of it’s true either so we’re

[00:30:48] kind of at a difficult position where we have to go okay well we know some of it’s true but we don’t know that all of

[00:30:53] its true but how much can we know that’s true and and how does that affect you

[00:30:59] know our perspective on reality all of life is based on probabilities right so I wasn’t there you weren’t there so we

[00:31:06] have to draw a conclusion I feel like I’ve taken up a lot of the time here we’re coming up on a break again but I’m

[00:31:12] gonna give you one quick I just say one quick thing that in the flood stories you know not a

[00:31:18] one matches Genesis not a single one in fact you know they talk about how similar they are and most time its water

[00:31:23] is almost the only similarity here’s a good one real short chameleons heard a strange noise like water running in a tree but

[00:31:31] at that time there was no water in the world world he cut up trunk and water came out in a great flood that spread

[00:31:37] all over the earth the first human couple emerged with the water now that’s a pygmy African pygmy flood myth that’s

[00:31:43] one of the stories creationists include in flood stories of the world so you know there’s no way that that someone

[00:31:51] could read that and you know say it’s anywhere similar to the story we see in

[00:31:56] Janice I think Genesis I think a lot of the the reefs have flood stories as there were a lot of floods but local and

[00:32:03] regional floods not on any kind of worldwide flood because I don’t believe there’s any evidence for that yeah okay

[00:32:08] well we’re coming up on a break here my guest is Bill Ludlow and we’re having a great discussion I wish this discussion could go on for like four hours or

[00:32:15] something but it can’t so so but stay with us we’ve got another one more

[00:32:20] segment left and we’ll we’ll continue to discuss this issue [Applause] [Music]

[00:32:32] you

[00:33:26] thanks for being with us today you’re listening to Kevin Conover on educate for life my websites educate for life o

[00:33:33] RG and I hope you’ve been enjoying the show I really have I love talking to people who have different views than I

[00:33:39] do I get bored talking to people that agree with me about everything so I think it’s kind of fun to talk to people who have different perspectives and Bill

[00:33:45] ludlow does he has a great website you can check out if you’d like it’s create creation science fiction com

[00:33:51] make sure you counterpoint you counterbalance it though with some other with some other perspectives too but

[00:33:57] it’s great that we have the internet we can we can hear all these different perspectives you know from different people so that’s that’s really cool so

[00:34:04] bill we’ve been talking about the age of the earth and everything and you wanted

[00:34:09] to ask me the question say that question again you mentioned off-year okay let me

[00:34:14] set it up a little bit too you know there’s been studies out there by the Barna Group and and others and by

[00:34:21] Christian organizations that show that Christianity loses a lot of people by

[00:34:27] the time that they get to college and beyond you know and pretty much the more educated you get and and I’m not saying

[00:34:35] Christians are uneducated but but the more educated they get in the sciences people tend to drop away and and one of

[00:34:43] the reasons they found out is that they felt that their their upbringing was anti-science especially young Earth

[00:34:50] Creationism and so I believe that what you’re doing in teaching young Earth Creationism is

[00:34:56] risking losing people all together once they grow up and basically grow out of

[00:35:02] it so I wanted to hear your thoughts on that I just think that you know I’m not

[00:35:08] an anti theist I’m an atheist but I I see young Earth Creationism is slowly

[00:35:15] going away the way of Flat Earth the way of that thing and and I think you’re just really risking losing the people

[00:35:22] that you’re trying to reach by being so adamant that the earth is 6,000 years old yeah well you know personally I love

[00:35:28] to have different perspectives so I’m not about silencing dissent so my perspective is let’s hear everybody’s

[00:35:34] view let’s a value wait what the truth is and let’s go towards the truth but if I were to say

[00:35:40] okay I’m losing people therefore I should stop teaching this right that’s the ends justify the means so meaning

[00:35:46] I’m going to do something that I think would be dishonest in order to achieve the goal of keeping people in the

[00:35:53] religion and I think that’s a red flag for any religion any religion that doesn’t allow you to think freely and

[00:35:59] tries to hold you in right Jehovah’s Witnesses do this they used to not even let their people use the Internet

[00:36:05] Muslims do this if you even question Allah they silence you and tell you you’re sinning but as a Christian my my

[00:36:11] I teach apologetics to young people to students I tell them you’re gonna go out and you’re gonna tell talk to an atheist

[00:36:17] you’re gonna go talk to an evolutionist you’re gonna go talk to a Buddhist you’re gonna go talk to a Muslim and then we’re gonna have a discussion and

[00:36:23] you’re gonna you’re gonna evaluate what the truth is so personally my personal philosophy which I believe is a biblical

[00:36:28] philosophy is that Jesus Christ said when you seek me you will find the truth and the truth will set you free so I

[00:36:34] believe that if you seek out truth you’ll end up at Jesus if you seek out Jesus you’ll end up at truth now that being said I I believe I’m a evidential

[00:36:42] list so I look at the evidence and I want to draw a good collusions the reason that people are walking away in

[00:36:47] my opinion isn’t because they’re being taught young Earth Creationism it’s because they’re not being taught the actual science behind the view that the

[00:36:55] earth is young so I’m not allowed to talk about a view of God that presents

[00:37:00] young Earth Creationism in a public school not literally not allowed to talk about it scientists if you go to a

[00:37:06] school and you try to talk about intelligent design or the science behind radioisotope dating that supports young

[00:37:13] Earth Creationism you are not allowed to talk about it I was invited to go speak at a school public school on a job day

[00:37:20] and they said you can come I said I’m a Bible teacher can I still come they said

[00:37:25] you can come you just can’t talk about the Bible and I understand that they don’t want you indoctrinating kids I

[00:37:30] understand that but at the same time there’s a difference between indoctrination and actually presenting facts and there are a lot of problems

[00:37:37] with evolutionary theory that that I have seen and I’ve talked to many people who agree with me on this and those

[00:37:45] problems aren’t typically allowed the opportunity to be presented I don’t think it’s a fair opportunity

[00:37:50] for people to be able to evaluate the truth so I guess I would say that the reason people are leaving isn’t because

[00:37:56] isn’t because the there the science is lacking but it’s because either the the

[00:38:03] science isn’t taught well or a straw man is put up or it’s essentially locked out

[00:38:09] of the classroom in school I mean I went to you know I went to UCSD and that’s a

[00:38:15] very science heavy school and I had the opportunity to talk to lots people but of course there’s not going to be a

[00:38:21] perspective on creation in those those classes they just they couch it as religion and so therefore your silence

[00:38:27] turn told you can’t talk about it now you teach in a Christian school I did not private school yeah but I was

[00:38:34] invited I was invited to a job fair on a public school my school that I went to okay yeah but you do currently teach

[00:38:40] young Earth Creationism basically I mean in your apologetics classes do you talk about the age of the earth oh absolutely

[00:38:45] yeah you know in the online course that you presented it’s all geared around young earth creationist it is I teach

[00:38:52] the other perspectives but then I tell everybody my personal perspective is that there is more evidence for the

[00:38:58] young earth position than any other position and then I give them that I

[00:39:04] teach them evolution too I mean I all about what evolution teaches and I teach it accurately I even used to bring in an

[00:39:11] ocean as to my class on a regular basis to teach the class to make sure I wasn’t teaching something that wasn’t true I

[00:39:17] would love to talk to you again about maybe about your human origins video because I was I did watch that and I’d

[00:39:25] love to talk to you about that oh I’d love to talk about it and as far as because yeah yeah I mean I I think you

[00:39:30] really kind of anywhere I’m off anywhere I’m off I’m happy to be corrected hey

[00:39:37] you know I I’m not a perfect person and I sure don’t claim to have all knowledge so I’m always open to somebody saying

[00:39:43] hey did you know this or did you know this or didn’t you know this I mean for me that’s how I learned so that’s I

[00:39:48] think if you haven’t watched what it was Kent Hovind yet or no no I want to watch that though I’m gonna watch it yeah

[00:39:54] the 20 minutes at the beginning is the overview of what we currently teach on human evolution for the last 8 3 and 1/2

[00:40:01] to 4 million years it’s a really good overview and 95% of

[00:40:09] what was in that you don’t mention in your your section you’re on when you

[00:40:14] talk about human evolution so that’s where I’m getting is that by leaving how what we do teach and focusing on things

[00:40:21] that might have been taught a hundred years ago you’re not actually giving a false perspective to the students on

[00:40:26] what’s taught about evolution that’s right curious to know what it is give me one of the can you give me a

[00:40:32] quick example of like something that’s currently being taught that it’s kind of new information that would be more

[00:40:38] supportive of the evolution human origins issue issue well the fact that

[00:40:43] we now know that it was not like a ladder like progression you know we

[00:40:48] don’t use that march of progress you know ascent of man kind of image I mean

[00:40:53] that hasn’t been used in a long long time it was really just featured in magazines and stuff but you know we know

[00:41:00] now that that at any given time there were different populations of hominins human ancestors that we had a lot of

[00:41:07] very different species alive at the same time it wasn’t a ladder-like progression

[00:41:13] from one to the next but like saying your presentation you show this species this species this species so you know again it’s just I

[00:41:21] would say it’s not a ladder-like progression but what is the progression then it if you’ve got a bunch of

[00:41:28] different hominid species all over the place what is the different what is the progression that you’re referring to what we see over time is we see the

[00:41:35] change in population so we see you know primitive features in there earlier ones

[00:41:41] we see those features go away over time we see more derived you know or modern type features and the more recent ones

[00:41:47] we just see a gradual change the with a

[00:41:53] very good example of change from ape to modern human between two point to a 1.7

[00:42:00] 1.6 million years ago what you would call it change in kind you know we just

[00:42:06] call it change in species over time but I mean the evidence is all there but I

[00:42:12] don’t you know yeah that’s why I said made that maybe a whole other discussion yeah absolutely I you know

[00:42:18] I’d love to have you on another time bill to get more into maybe more specifics on a particular subject I’d

[00:42:23] find that very good one last thing to or one thing this I I don’t make any money off of this but friend of mine who’s a

[00:42:30] Christian ken welcome a–the in fact I believe all the authors on this book were Christians and it’s called the

[00:42:38] Grand Canyon monument to an H and earth can this flood explain the Grand Canyon and it basically talks about all the

[00:42:44] Croesus arguments for the ancient or for the young earth you know in the Grand Canyon and refutes them one by one again

[00:42:52] it’s it’s they even take care to explain I got my autographed copy here with you you know they even take the time to

[00:42:59] explain that they’re not knocking Christianity in here and why you know again it’s it’s it’s anti young Earth

[00:43:05] Creationism but it is written by Christians for Christians I understand that yeah yeah and I wanted to throw

[00:43:13] this out there to you too if you know anybody you know I mentioned Walt Brown you know Walt Brown is the guy I mentioned I do yeah he is in Phoenix

[00:43:19] here he works out of his house yeah he has a I don’t know if you know about this or maybe maybe it’s he he told me

[00:43:27] he has a standing offer to have a written debate with anybody with an earn degree in any science field

[00:43:32] he’ll pay them ten thousand dollars it’ll go into an escrow account he said they don’t even have to win the debate all they have to do is agree to do the

[00:43:39] debate and and finish the debate and they’ll automatically get that $10,000 so I’m I’m going I would love to see

[00:43:46] that because to me that’d be really interesting if you had two people I don’t remember what the terms the debate

[00:43:51] are but it you know I mean Kent Hovind you used to have a $250,000 you know standing off route don’t think he could

[00:43:57] afford that now but but he had that out there for years and he you know the

[00:44:04] terms of the debate were basically he put together a straw man of what

[00:44:10] evolution was and then you had to prove that so I I’m not exactly familiar with Walt Browns offer but well the thing

[00:44:17] about grounds offer is you don’t have to win it all you have to do is participate which i think is like I mean hey that’s

[00:44:23] a that’s a win-win you know so I feel like that’d be pretty interesting anyway I just thought I’d throw that out there

[00:44:29] if you know any that’s that’s interested in that sort of a thing but anyway thank you thanks for

[00:44:34] being on the program today we’re about out of time I know it flies by so yeah it does thank you but I I’ll stay in

[00:44:41] touch with you and if if I was talking to off-air to Bill for those of you

[00:44:47] listening and maybe I’d love to debate you here in San Diego sometime so if

[00:44:52] you’re open to that that’d be a fun thing I think it would be great you know like a PowerPoint presentation type thing yeah yeah we

[00:45:00] could uh patsies you have so many university back and forth yeah that would be wonderful yeah I’d be really

[00:45:06] happy to do that okay hey thanks a lot bill it’s been great thanks thank you very much okay take

[00:45:12] care okay thanks for everybody listening out there I hope you guys enjoyed the the program here and probably if Bill’s

[00:45:19] willing probably have them on again sometime because I thought it was great so anyway have a great day and we’ll be

[00:45:25] back next week take care did you miss part of today’s program don’t worry we’re con mitad to helping

[00:45:31] you get the info you need okay that was dumb but for real visit educate for life con for podcasts and

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