The Fate of the Apostles – Sean McDowell

[00:00:00] okay well welcome to educate for life

[00:00:03] radio and podcast this is Kevin Conover

[00:00:05] I’m your host and I’m broadcasting from

[00:00:07] Southern California if you are

[00:00:09] quarantined right I’m quarantined so

[00:00:11] here I am at home putting this together

[00:00:14] here and very excited have the

[00:00:16] opportunity to have dr. Shawn McDowell

[00:00:18] on our program today and he is a

[00:00:20] professor up at Biola University he’s

[00:00:22] got all kinds of credentials PhD and he

[00:00:27] also has the editor author of over 20

[00:00:30] different books and I wanted to have him

[00:00:32] on today because in my discussions with

[00:00:35] skeptics and atheists one of the topics

[00:00:38] that comes up all the time is the

[00:00:41] resurrection of Christ and the evidence

[00:00:42] for the resurrection of Christ and so

[00:00:45] recently Shawn wrote a book called the

[00:00:48] fate of the Apostles and this really

[00:00:50] struck me because it’s one of the

[00:00:52] arguments I used all the time growing up

[00:00:55] as a kid I constantly referenced it and

[00:00:58] so when I saw this this the title of his

[00:01:01] book and I got to sit in in his his

[00:01:02] class and hear him talk about it I

[00:01:04] thought man I want to I want to learn

[00:01:06] more about this and I want to see if

[00:01:08] this is an argument that I should

[00:01:10] continue to use so dr. dr. Sean

[00:01:14] McDonough I just wanted to thank you for

[00:01:15] being on the program today hey thanks

[00:01:17] for having me I’m a huge fan of what

[00:01:18] you’re doing and remember you barely

[00:01:20] passing I’m just kidding nailed it with

[00:01:23] an A and you’ve continued on having a

[00:01:26] ministry and influence of your own so

[00:01:28] we’re super proud of you the team here

[00:01:29] at Biola loves what you’re doing yeah

[00:01:31] yeah everybody at Biola is amazing so I

[00:01:34] can’t right if you’re interested if

[00:01:36] you’re listening and you’re interested

[00:01:37] in really learning about apologetics

[00:01:38] really Biola is a world class I don’t

[00:01:42] know if there’s a better program in the

[00:01:44] world based on the professors that we’ve

[00:01:46] got there so that’s a huge blessing but

[00:01:48] um Sean I wanted to ask you about this

[00:01:51] you know you wrote this book the fate of

[00:01:52] the Apostles and for our listeners can

[00:01:55] you just give a real quick rundown on

[00:01:57] what is the argument that has been

[00:02:00] traditionally used to to persuade people

[00:02:04] that the resurrection actually happened

[00:02:06] this is just part of the larger argument

[00:02:07] but what is this it’s a key point that

[00:02:09] has been used frequently yes so

[00:02:11] typically throughout church history in

[00:02:13] by some pastors and well-meaning

[00:02:15] apologists people have said something

[00:02:16] like all the apostles except maybe not

[00:02:19] John died as martyrs there for what they

[00:02:23] believe is true the resurrection

[00:02:25] happened Christian is true something of

[00:02:27] that variance I heard that growing up

[00:02:29] found it somewhat compelling and then as

[00:02:32] I got into my doctoral research

[00:02:34] I remember thinking partly because I was

[00:02:36] with a group of students at Berkeley and

[00:02:38] we brought in some atheists agnostics to

[00:02:40] speak to our group and one of my we had

[00:02:43] this myth assist who doesn’t think Jesus

[00:02:44] even existed and one of my students said

[00:02:47] why would all the Apostles die if we if

[00:02:51] Jesus didn’t even exist and the skeptic

[00:02:54] goes how do you know any of them died as

[00:02:56] martyrs and I sat there for the first

[00:02:59] time I really thought huh I’ve never

[00:03:02] examined this myself what are the

[00:03:04] sources how good are the sources how

[00:03:06] many sources are there and I was just

[00:03:09] starting doctoral research so it ended

[00:03:11] up becoming my thesis that I did

[00:03:13] doctoral level work on published in the

[00:03:15] book an essential one I found is the way

[00:03:17] this argument is stated we need to be

[00:03:19] much more careful we cannot move from

[00:03:23] their willingness to suffer died to the

[00:03:24] truth of the resurrection it doesn’t

[00:03:26] follow like you said very well Kevin

[00:03:29] this is one piece of a larger

[00:03:31] resurrection argument that basically

[00:03:34] shows the Apostles didn’t make this up

[00:03:37] they sincerely believe that Jesus died

[00:03:40] was buried and subsequently appeared to

[00:03:44] them this argument shows that they’re

[00:03:47] not making this up and intentionally

[00:03:48] putting themselves in harm’s way but

[00:03:50] they really believe Jesus had appeared

[00:03:52] to them that’s it so this argument

[00:03:54] doesn’t disprove the hallucination

[00:03:56] hypothesis we look elsewhere for that

[00:03:58] but it does show that they really

[00:04:00] believe Jesus had appeared to them and

[00:04:03] it’s not some big conspiracy they’re not

[00:04:05] liars so what I what I really want our

[00:04:08] listeners to get across in a short time

[00:04:10] that we have what what I really want to

[00:04:12] convey to them is you know during your

[00:04:15] research and writing this book and

[00:04:16] putting this all together I mean you

[00:04:17] spent I believe it was three years doing

[00:04:20] your research on this how did your view

[00:04:23] of this particular argument change and

[00:04:25] as people out there right because

[00:04:27] a lot of our listeners are people who

[00:04:28] are having discussions with their

[00:04:29] neighbors their co-workers their the the

[00:04:32] athletes on their team and they’re

[00:04:33] talking about Jesus Christ historically

[00:04:35] in the resurrection and and I have you

[00:04:37] know skeptics saying oh Jesus never

[00:04:39] existed or we can’t trust the Bible how

[00:04:42] did your view of this particular

[00:04:44] argument change over time what did you

[00:04:46] learn and how do you now approach things

[00:04:49] when you are having these discussions

[00:04:51] differently than when you did in the

[00:04:53] past so when I started this research I

[00:04:56] thought we could show that they all died

[00:04:59] as apostles except for John my

[00:05:02] assumption was because I had heard that

[00:05:03] so often although my confidence was a

[00:05:06] little bit lower going into it because I

[00:05:07] was gonna do doctoral level research as

[00:05:10] I got in the research I started realized

[00:05:12] that for many of the Apostles it’s

[00:05:15] really hard to know where history ends

[00:05:18] and where legend begins a good chunk of

[00:05:21] these apostles now I think what I did is

[00:05:24] I took the Twelve Apostles of Jesus and

[00:05:27] I took Paul and James the brother of

[00:05:30] Jesus who both there’s the claim that

[00:05:32] they saw there isn’t Jesus and there

[00:05:34] were significant figures in the early

[00:05:36] church so those fourteen I think we can

[00:05:39] show the highest degree of historical

[00:05:41] confidence that they died as martyrs I

[00:05:43] think there’s two Andrew and Thomas that

[00:05:46] at least minimally you can make the case

[00:05:49] that they’re more plausible than not the

[00:05:52] rest of them I’m not sure we really know

[00:05:55] so number one is I just think we need to

[00:05:57] carefully state what the history shows

[00:05:59] but on the other hand we don’t have to

[00:06:01] show that any of them actually died as

[00:06:03] martyrs for this point to come across

[00:06:06] because the key is their willingness to

[00:06:09] suffer and die for this claim and all

[00:06:12] you have to do is read the beginning of

[00:06:14] acts and acts 1 it talks in this

[00:06:16] prologue what Luke gives he talks about

[00:06:20] this appearances and spending 40 days

[00:06:24] with the Apostles then you go down I

[00:06:26] think it’s verse 13 he lists them out by

[00:06:29] name and then by chapter 4 they’re

[00:06:32] proclaiming the resurrection and they’re

[00:06:34] being beaten threatened thrown in prison

[00:06:37] and we see Stephen killed and then

[00:06:39] ultimately James killed

[00:06:41] acts 12 – so the way I framed this

[00:06:44] argument is we know they believed they

[00:06:46] had seen the Risen Jesus and we know

[00:06:49] they were all willing to suffer and die

[00:06:51] for that conviction and we have good

[00:06:54] evidence that at least some of them

[00:06:56] really died as martyrs so I can’t

[00:06:58] convince myself they’re lying or it’s a

[00:07:00] big conspiracy they at least really

[00:07:02] believe that Jesus had appeared to them

[00:07:04] okay that’s great now so so you know a

[00:07:09] lot of skeptics you had a dialogue with

[00:07:11] apology I believe it is recently yeah

[00:07:14] and he posted a video criticizing your

[00:07:17] book the fate of the Apostles then you

[00:07:19] responded I got a chance to watch both

[00:07:21] that watch that dialogue there and then

[00:07:24] you ended up I saw you ended up actually

[00:07:26] having a discussion debate with him

[00:07:28] which was fantastic too and if you’re

[00:07:31] listening and you haven’t seen that this

[00:07:32] is worth your time to check out and

[00:07:34] listen you’ll get a lot of information

[00:07:36] really quickly and really understand the

[00:07:38] points of this argument but you know

[00:07:41] this keeps popping up in my discussions

[00:07:43] with skeptics I recently debated John

[00:07:45] Gleason the godless engineer he was on

[00:07:48] my program and we had a you know two

[00:07:51] hour discussion very interesting but one

[00:07:53] of the things he brought up and I wanted

[00:07:55] to hear how you respond to this is he

[00:07:57] basically said look I said I give all

[00:07:59] this historical evidence for the truth

[00:08:01] of God’s Word for the Bible and I gave

[00:08:04] all these points and he said just

[00:08:05] because these places and people that are

[00:08:08] listed are actually real places and

[00:08:10] people doesn’t mean that the Bible is

[00:08:12] now true and you know he said something

[00:08:14] to the effect if you watch the movie

[00:08:16] Avengers and it references New York you

[00:08:18] don’t go hey the Avengers is a true

[00:08:21] historical event just because it

[00:08:22] references New York how do you respond

[00:08:24] to somebody like that well he’s right

[00:08:27] technically the archeology alone doesn’t

[00:08:31] prove that a historical writer any

[00:08:34] writing is true but that’s not the end

[00:08:36] of story because we all know that

[00:08:39] Avengers is a made-up fictional mythical

[00:08:43] movie that’s the genre of Avengers

[00:08:47] Avengers but that’s not the case for the

[00:08:50] Gospels we look at Luke 1:1

[00:08:53] Luke says many have undertaken an

[00:08:55] account to write and talk about the

[00:08:58] events that have happened among us but I

[00:09:00] write your Theophilus to give you the

[00:09:02] certainty and confidence of these events

[00:09:06] now in those four verses this is an

[00:09:09] ancient way of saying I am doing my due

[00:09:12] diligence to write genuine history so

[00:09:15] the entire genre of Luke and the other

[00:09:17] Gospels and the writings of Paul are

[00:09:19] different than the Avengers so when we

[00:09:23] get to a historical source like this our

[00:09:26] entire case doesn’t rest upon

[00:09:28] archaeology that is one corroborating

[00:09:31] place that tells us ok Luke is intending

[00:09:35] to do this when you go through Luke and

[00:09:37] acts you find that he got people right

[00:09:39] they got events right they got dates

[00:09:41] right largely speaking which helps

[00:09:44] confirm that he does care about these

[00:09:47] events and people and is telling a real

[00:09:49] story and then you add on top of that

[00:09:51] the manuscript question we look at other

[00:09:54] internal evidence and you realize that

[00:09:56] we have good reason to think that the

[00:09:58] Gospels are reliable and true that’s

[00:10:01] fantastic I love that so you know along

[00:10:04] those same lines you I believe tweeted a

[00:10:07] quote from William Lane Craig recently

[00:10:11] and the quote was specifically let’s see

[00:10:16] here the Christian faith is not based on

[00:10:19] the evidence for the resurrection that’s

[00:10:21] kind of a provocative statement because

[00:10:24] that’s something we’ve heard constantly

[00:10:25] can you expand on that what your

[00:10:28] thoughts are on that yeah so I think

[00:10:30] Christians make a mistake by saying our

[00:10:32] faith is in the Bible or our faith is in

[00:10:35] the evidence my faith is in God and the

[00:10:39] Father and His Son Jesus Christ alone it

[00:10:43] is by grace we are saved through faith

[00:10:47] so somebody responded and critique me

[00:10:49] and said you and Andy Stanley and all

[00:10:51] these apologists need to stop

[00:10:52] undermining the Bible our faith is in

[00:10:54] the Bible and I said I do have a kind of

[00:10:56] faith in the Bible and I think the Bible

[00:10:59] is true but ultimately my faith is in

[00:11:02] the saving work of Jesus Christ now

[00:11:06] how do we know about Jesus Christ that’s

[00:11:09] through the scriptures that’s through

[00:11:12] other ancient writings and when it comes

[00:11:14] to the resurrection I think there’s two

[00:11:16] big ways we can know the resurrection is

[00:11:17] true number one I think the spirit can

[00:11:20] speak to us directly as we see in

[00:11:23] Galatians and as we see in Romans in

[00:11:26] Romans 8 where it talks about you know

[00:11:29] the spirit I cry out Abba Father so I

[00:11:33] think somebody can know by the spirit

[00:11:34] working in their heart hearing the story

[00:11:37] of the resurrection and it just rings

[00:11:39] true to them I also think we can know

[00:11:43] that the resurrection happen by looking

[00:11:46] at the historical evidence and seeing

[00:11:49] that it makes good sense of what we know

[00:11:52] so Craig is careful to say our faith is

[00:11:55] not in the evidence because what about

[00:11:57] people who didn’t have the technology

[00:11:58] and training that you and I have yea

[00:12:00] which most people pre-internet through

[00:12:03] the history of the world it doesn’t mean

[00:12:04] they can’t have a confident faith so

[00:12:06] that’s all that the general point was

[00:12:08] that’s great well I love that too in

[00:12:12] that and that’s really important because

[00:12:13] you know people can put their faith in

[00:12:16] the Lord Jesus Christ through the

[00:12:17] experience that they have through the

[00:12:18] testimony they have of other people that

[00:12:20] they see they don’t have to be a genius

[00:12:22] apologist and have all the answers I

[00:12:24] have you know some of my students are

[00:12:25] like mr. Connor I’m never gonna remember

[00:12:26] all this stuff you know and so I said

[00:12:29] don’t worry about that you know what

[00:12:30] just focus on the Lord and love him you

[00:12:32] know he’s true right so you know as

[00:12:36] you’ve done this research in and when

[00:12:38] you were doing this research for the

[00:12:39] book was there a lot of stuff popping up

[00:12:41] that you didn’t expect or was this kind

[00:12:43] of expected for you oh my goodness there

[00:12:46] was a ton of stuff I didn’t expect I’ll

[00:12:47] give you one example his I didn’t expect

[00:12:49] there to be any scholars who argued for

[00:12:52] the martyrdom of John but not only are

[00:12:54] the New Testament scholars there are

[00:12:56] conservative New Testament scholars like

[00:12:57] Ben Witherington and Richard baucom who

[00:13:00] argued that John actually died as a

[00:13:02] martyr oh wow instead of dying on the

[00:13:06] the Patmos yeah that’s right instead of

[00:13:08] dying a natural death no I wasn’t fully

[00:13:10] convinced by that but that surprised me

[00:13:12] and I just had a scholar this week send

[00:13:14] me a chapter here on I mean ready yet

[00:13:15] he’s arguing for the martyrdom of John

[00:13:17] now I want to believe

[00:13:18] that it would make my thesis stronger

[00:13:20] but I never follow where I think the

[00:13:22] evidence leads so that surprised me

[00:13:24] another surprise that I thoroughly

[00:13:26] enjoyed was studying the fate of Thomas

[00:13:29] because Thomas the story is that he goes

[00:13:32] to India yeah and when you look in India

[00:13:36] the way Eastern scholars in their

[00:13:38] culture records history is very

[00:13:41] different than western scholars so we

[00:13:43] don’t really have written records of

[00:13:47] Thomas in India for the first century

[00:13:50] plus but because they didn’t write

[00:13:53] history doesn’t mean they didn’t have a

[00:13:56] historical sense about themselves and

[00:13:59] didn’t record historical events they do

[00:14:01] it through songs through poems through

[00:14:04] traditions so I found almost in some

[00:14:08] ways kind of an ethnocentric dismissal

[00:14:10] of this entire Eastern tradition and I

[00:14:12] read all these Eastern scholars I

[00:14:14] contacted some of them and it really

[00:14:16] just gave me a fresh perspective about

[00:14:18] how they think about history that I was

[00:14:20] just completely unaware of going into

[00:14:23] this that is really cool I love that so

[00:14:26] you know you you’ve explored this

[00:14:28] particular issue and there’s a lot of

[00:14:30] different apologetic arguments that

[00:14:32] people have to persuade you know the

[00:14:35] evidence is that it makes the most sense

[00:14:38] to believe in the historical Christ that

[00:14:40] he died that he rose again

[00:14:42] are there other common apologetic

[00:14:44] arguments that you have now reflect now

[00:14:47] with your you know kind of your radar on

[00:14:49] about apologetic arguments that may not

[00:14:52] be as strong as you once thought they

[00:14:55] were are there any others on your kind

[00:14:57] of radar that you’re keeping your eyes

[00:14:58] looking at thinking hmm that’s one I

[00:15:00] want to explore a little bit deeper and

[00:15:02] see how strong the evidence actually is

[00:15:04] yeah I’ll tell you very interesting

[00:15:06] Kevin you’ve probably seen the book by

[00:15:08] Elijah Hickson and Peter Guri called

[00:15:10] myths and mistakes in New Testament

[00:15:12] textual criticism hmm this book came out

[00:15:15] last year Peter Guri is as Laura

[00:15:18] thirty’s teaches a Phoenix Seminary and

[00:15:20] he is a textual critic expert I just had

[00:15:24] him on my show like last week I think it

[00:15:27] was and it’s gotten more hits than

[00:15:28] almost any other show I’ve done in

[00:15:30] YouTube because I think it really

[00:15:32] like a nerd with people yeah he walked

[00:15:34] through and talked about how sometimes

[00:15:35] we’ve overstated the evidence for

[00:15:37] manuscripts sometimes we have been

[00:15:39] inconsistent how we study manuscripts

[00:15:42] for say Homer with a different

[00:15:44] assessment than we do the new testament

[00:15:46] hmm I talked about ways that we have not

[00:15:49] dealt with variants accurately and that

[00:15:52] was really eye-opening it was kind of

[00:15:54] the same way I approached the Apostles

[00:15:55] in a sense saying we can make a good

[00:15:57] argument here but we have to be careful

[00:16:00] and accurate in how we do it and they

[00:16:02] did this for the New Testament Wow

[00:16:05] though I still think the early and the

[00:16:07] dating and the quantity of manuscripts

[00:16:09] is helpful and the New Testament is set

[00:16:12] apart from any other book of antiquity

[00:16:15] but we got to be more careful how we

[00:16:18] assess this so read that book

[00:16:20] fortunately they were very positive

[00:16:22] towards evidence it’s a man’s verdict I

[00:16:24] kind of read it with fear and trembling

[00:16:26] like they’re gonna rip this book up they

[00:16:28] were really positive but even I read

[00:16:29] this and I’ve studied this for years and

[00:16:31] thought oh boy I need to be more careful

[00:16:34] about this point and more accurate so

[00:16:36] for your listeners their book is

[00:16:38] wonderful or they can go back and watch

[00:16:40] the YouTube video if it interest them

[00:16:42] but why this matters so much is number

[00:16:45] one Christians to just care about truth

[00:16:47] but in the past and my father’s start

[00:16:50] started for speaking on apologetics

[00:16:51] nobody could look this stuff up and

[00:16:54] double-check it well now they can and if

[00:16:57] you and I say things that are inaccurate

[00:16:59] it’s going to undermine our larger case

[00:17:02] so that we just not a number one because

[00:17:05] truth is good but second for reasons of

[00:17:09] credibility in our culture we have to be

[00:17:12] that much more careful wow that’s a

[00:17:14] great message I love that yeah I know I

[00:17:16] I think that’s popping up more and more

[00:17:18] is just a closer look at these arguments

[00:17:21] that we just took for granted in the

[00:17:23] past and now we got to be more careful

[00:17:25] about that that’s fantastic you guys if

[00:17:27] you’re listening my guest today is Sean

[00:17:28] McDowell and you can check him out sean

[00:17:30] mcdonagh org he’s got all kinds of

[00:17:32] resources on there he’s got it you know

[00:17:35] he’s doing his own broadcast now which

[00:17:37] is fantastic very very useful and then

[00:17:40] he’s got the vile apologetics program

[00:17:41] too so people if they’re interested in

[00:17:44] that Sean they can

[00:17:45] don’t have to be live in person right

[00:17:47] we’re all doing things online now so the

[00:17:48] whole program is online now so that’s

[00:17:51] you got people all over the world taking

[00:17:53] that so we have two levels you can come

[00:17:55] get a master’s degree and we’re doing

[00:17:57] this distance or we have a certificate

[00:17:59] program and in fact if somebody wants a

[00:18:02] discount if they go to one of my recent

[00:18:03] videos on YouTube and just look in the

[00:18:05] description there’s like $100 plus

[00:18:08] discount for people that our programs

[00:18:10] offering if somebody’s like I want to

[00:18:12] study apologetics not quite masters

[00:18:13] level and I want somebody to guide me

[00:18:16] along might be a resource that would

[00:18:18] help that’s great well Sean I just want

[00:18:20] to say thanks a lot for taking time out

[00:18:22] of your day here to be here with us and

[00:18:24] I hope you have a fantastic day I know

[00:18:26] you’ve got a lot going and stay safe

[00:18:28] during the quarantine hey cam and I

[00:18:30] speak for the team here at Biola we love

[00:18:32] to see our grads going out and making a

[00:18:34] difference so you’re making a difference

[00:18:36] you know you taught one of my nephew’s

[00:18:37] yes right his life your radio show be

[00:18:41] encouraged and keep it up thankful for

[00:18:42] you okay god bless you Sean have a great

[00:18:44] day

[00:18:52] you