What is Critical Race Theory? – Dr. Joe Miller

[00:00:01] hey well thanks for being here this is kevin conover and um you’re on educate for life radio

[00:00:06] we’re down here in southern california uh frequently i broadcast from the studio the k praise studios down here in san diego

[00:00:13] kprc we’re on fm 106.1 in north county as well as k praise 1 10 a.m

[00:00:18] uh every weekend here and i’ve interviewed hundreds of guests all over uh the world

[00:00:24] talking about how god has influenced their lives and how god is using them to influence the lives of those around them

[00:00:30] and my website is educate4life.org you can check it out there’s a full systematic apologetics curriculum we go through

[00:00:36] everything you can possibly imagine if you’re interested in studying more and learning apologetics which is a

[00:00:41] defense of the christian faith and i’m really happy to have on the show today dr joe miller

[00:00:47] and uh joe miller is uh his website is um uh on blankets more than cake.org you

[00:00:54] had it too much going on i was about to say eatcake.org or something like that

[00:01:00] more than cake.org uh and uh joe and i actually although we’ve we haven’t crossed paths too often you were right

[00:01:06] across the street from me at uh southern california seminary for 10 years yeah yeah we weren’t far apart you know

[00:01:12] yeah so that that’s just we never connected but you know joe um what we’re talking about today and what i think a lot of people are

[00:01:18] interested in i’m very interested in the subject is critical race theory and uh why don’t we start off with a

[00:01:24] bang here what what is critical race theory oh man yeah it sounds like an easy question right what

[00:01:30] is it um you know so critical race theory

[00:01:35] uh i mean there’s nailing down definitions is challenging to some degree

[00:01:41] but it’s basically a it’s a it’s a system of ideas and thoughts i wouldn’t say it’s a full-blown world

[00:01:47] view because there’s a lot of different ways people come at it but it’s a system ideas and thoughts that

[00:01:52] people are using to try to analyze what they see as racial discrimination and uh

[00:02:00] institutionalized racism and uh how would we overcome it i mean that’s the goal of it at least that’s what it’s

[00:02:06] trying to do and overcome now how they do that’s another question but that’s essentially what it is it’s a

[00:02:11] tool that’s uh rooted in sort of a secular naturalist worldview for the most rooted in that

[00:02:17] worldview for the most part although there are some theistic people that have that shared critical race theory ideas uh and they’re trying to solve

[00:02:24] that issue now you’re involved in you’ve been involved in uh ministry on college campuses

[00:02:29] and i imagine this is where this is a really critical issue to be knowledgeable about because when it comes to when it comes to

[00:02:36] apologetics you know it’s interesting because you know i’ve been teaching apologetics for about 12 years and i try to cover

[00:02:41] all the different issues that kids are going to run into as they’re heading off to college and doing these different things we cover

[00:02:46] things like you know how do we know the bible is the word of god what about creation what about evolution all these subjects but what’s really

[00:02:52] front and center now in a really big way in a way i don’t know if it’s ever been in my life lifetime

[00:02:59] with blm and everything is the whole issue of race racism um and this sort of thing and so what

[00:03:06] you’re looking at here is okay there’s a biblical approach to dealing with the issue of race and but there’s another approach

[00:03:13] critical race theory that’s trying to go from a secular perspective with racial issues how are they in

[00:03:19] conflict how are the biblical view and the secular view in conflict okay yeah that’s where we get that’s where we

[00:03:26] get into you start to get into the nuts and bolts of this thing and that’s where it is and i think you’re right i think moral apologetics is really

[00:03:34] where the the uh the train is going right now um you know the apologetics of what

[00:03:40] we’ve done for years and a lot of us in different contexts are still valuable but uh you know the moral apologetics

[00:03:47] how do we deal with these cultural social issues from a christian world you are really coming into we’re seeing the need for

[00:03:53] that mostly because it’s been neglected in the church and so the conflict is is pretty uh

[00:03:59] pretty severe i think uh in approaches and and i think there’s four key facets and i’ll at least give

[00:04:06] those and then we you can decide what which you want to dive into or how you want to jump in differently to these

[00:04:11] so i think there’s four different things that they do differently one is critical race theory uh is grounded in

[00:04:18] what’s called a epistemological idealism that is truth is found in the experience

[00:04:24] of a certain group of people who will call the oppressed so they have a certain access to truth

[00:04:29] that others don’t have and then the second would be the idea that i ideology all ideology really is

[00:04:36] some sort of oppression and the way that works out for crt critical race theory is that western civilization is this sort of

[00:04:43] form of white hegemonic power it’s this white power system that keeps non-white suppressed and so ideology

[00:04:50] itself though is this oppressive force about and it’s all about power and control

[00:04:56] yeah can i ask you a quick question yeah yeah yeah yeah because this this is interesting to me

[00:05:02] because you know i teach a a section on the racial issues with my 12th grade uh students

[00:05:08] and one of the things that’s been popping up you know and and i’m sure you’re well aware of this is that there’s this idea out there that

[00:05:15] you can’t be racist unless you’re in the majority the minority can’t be racist correct

[00:05:20] um and so when you say uh you know critical race theory is looking

[00:05:25] at it as the oppressed have a knowledge that the non-oppressed don’t have and

[00:05:31] uh you see this um you know whether it’s in the news whether it’s on clips that we’re seeing all over the internet where somebody essentially says

[00:05:38] because you are not a member of the oppressed you have no you have no you can’t even talk about this issue

[00:05:45] yeah is that right yeah that’s that’s a lot of where that’s coming in i remember

[00:05:50] now this has been around forever man when i was doing my undergrad i was doing it at penn state university uh i was an

[00:05:57] engineering student back in the day but i remember we used to go to this public spot where you could have dialogue and you know all these issues

[00:06:04] and uh there was a guy that you know when i first heard this idea that well

[00:06:09] he’s like well all white people are the devil all white people are evil and i said well that’s racism and he said no

[00:06:15] because oh you know because only white people can be racist and i was like you know backing up what

[00:06:21] the heck how’s that possible but it becomes because critical race there yeah because

[00:06:26] uh truth the way we access knowledge is through certain groups who are of the oppressed

[00:06:32] class have this unique perspective that only they have this certain access to this knowledge

[00:06:38] and so that’s the first key the second key is that racism is really about institutional

[00:06:46] abuses and power imbalance so even if you are numerically in the majorities but if you

[00:06:52] are non-white so if you have if there’s a hundred people in the room and 98 are you know african-american and two

[00:06:59] are white uh only the white people could be racist even though there’s numerically more even though

[00:07:06] they’re technically not a minority numerically but they would be considered a minority in that the systems of

[00:07:12] power are all hedged against them because those were created by white people therefore only whites can

[00:07:18] be racist okay so um if you’re in another country if you’re

[00:07:23] somewhere in like south america or something or you’re in africa where there’s a dominant majority that

[00:07:29] is uh not white um does that still hold or is this like a global thing

[00:07:35] yeah so that’s where you get into um you know that’s where you get into a

[00:07:40] you’re pointing out one of the challenges that that crt people have to answer a

[00:07:46] question that they have to answer that they don’t really answer very well it only works within our context in our cultural framework

[00:07:53] but not others uh and so you know they ways around that’s why they emphasize you hear a lot of

[00:07:58] discussion of you know ending western colonialism so they’ll say yes there’s racism in india

[00:08:05] but that’s only because they were colonized by you know england and so therefore all

[00:08:11] these white power structures were adopted into their systems so yes there’s racism but it’s still the

[00:08:16] white western world’s fault so you know they’ll find ways to get through that even if it was

[00:08:22] even if it wasn’t a colony even it wasn’t there’s still ways to do it but ultimately it’s sort of like this special pleading where they’re creating

[00:08:28] these sort of specialized answers these ad hoc solutions to this problem so would you

[00:08:34] say that this movement the cert movement and um has a lot of fallacies when it

[00:08:40] comes to you know logic and these sorts of things would you say there’s a lot of flaws in the in the theory

[00:08:45] well i think i i think that there are within because crt is now let me back up

[00:08:52] just a little bit and say this critical theory is sort of the the great grandfather so speaker maybe the grandfather

[00:08:57] of critical race theory and critical theory uh going back you know 60 70 now 70 so

[00:09:04] years ago um you know into the early part of the 20th century was more of a full-blown world

[00:09:10] naturalist materialist world view and so i think within that system of critical theory

[00:09:16] there were certainly massive conflicts with the christian worldview but there’s probably a little bit more of a coherence in terms of the logic of it

[00:09:25] critical theory is sort of took some of that neo-marxist ideas from critical theory

[00:09:30] but then it meshed in like post-modern ideas and other thoughts so because it’s not a

[00:09:36] full-blown world view it’s sort of these piecemeal approach yes there’s a lot of conflicts

[00:09:42] internally but most of that doesn’t bother the people who embrace it because because it’s more of a post-modern

[00:09:48] synth you know truth is synthetic you know we’re you and i come together we agree upon stuff and i can hold one

[00:09:53] truth here that conflicts with there but i don’t see a problem with that so yeah

[00:09:59] to somebody inside they wouldn’t see them as logical fallacies matter of fact because logic they say is

[00:10:04] a one form of western oppression so if you try to use logic that’s because you’re an oppressor class and

[00:10:11] you’re trying to oppress them so uh i mean that’s a no-win situation

[00:10:17] it is a very challenging one because uh in the conversation i i’ve been having

[00:10:22] with folks you know i’ll give you the shortcut version in terms of what i’ve kind of

[00:10:28] come to realize is even when i’m talking to people who are otherwise brothers and sisters in christ who are believers who

[00:10:34] have bought into these systems i kind of feel like i’m in um a cultic

[00:10:39] deprogramming mode like because i met a young guy who is only

[00:10:44] two weeks being introduced to these concepts and i said wait a second but you know aren’t there problems here

[00:10:50] and i was trying to just i mean very mild like do you see any problems with critical race theory

[00:10:55] and he said oh well you’re only reacting that way out of fear and he already knew that you know i couldn’t have a legitimate

[00:11:01] concern i couldn’t have whatever it was i was being fearful i was being you know i’m not

[00:11:07] aware of my own biases and he all knew the buzzwords to dismiss any challenge i had oh wow even to ask

[00:11:13] him a question yeah that’s interesting that you would call that um

[00:11:18] uh you know taking somebody out of an out of a cult uh like you said that that because that is typical of a cult to

[00:11:24] have ways to essentially divert any kind of challenge to the uh the world view

[00:11:31] yeah that’s that’s the challenge and again i mean when i’m having discussions with folks i’m gonna say hey you were to

[00:11:36] call that’s not the apologetic approach but i’m just letting you know you and your viewers know that as you’re dealing with this there will

[00:11:42] be massive moments of frustration because uh it is very much a a

[00:11:48] cult-like uh approach to that has easy ways of out-of-hand dismissing anything that any challenges you might

[00:11:54] have interesting well for those of you listening um my guest today is dr joe miller morethancake.org you can check

[00:12:01] out his website he’s got all kinds of resources tons of videos up that you can check out and get informed on

[00:12:06] um on a variety of different issues which we’re going to be touching on a few of those during the program today my name is

[00:12:12] kevin conover and my website is educate4life.org we’ve got all kinds of resources up there also for you to be

[00:12:17] able to check out um but uh joe you know when we’re dealing with this issue and you know

[00:12:25] you’re bumping up against this where is it that this is most often something you’re going to run into where do you see this

[00:12:31] popping up critical race theory popping up i know it’s on campus you work with ratio christie is that right correct yeah yeah i’m uh i’m a campus

[00:12:38] director for russia christie i started actually that march so pretty new to that but uh yeah so working with you could you say that

[00:12:44] the campuses are the are the primary hotbed for something like critical race theory so here’s here’s one of those reasons

[00:12:50] why this is such a challenge this is these the principles that undergird this

[00:12:55] um a lot of the assumptions the the the dogma that kind of sits

[00:13:02] underneath all of this even from people of very different world views um it’s all been enmeshed

[00:13:09] in our education system really from high school throughout college years

[00:13:15] so by the time students are getting to college many of them have already been introduced to many of the uh

[00:13:22] the ideas from this and have bought into those even though they could never name it as critical race theory or you know

[00:13:28] or even really you know outline what uh the ideas are what are some of those

[00:13:34] ideas give us give us some like top three of those ideas that you’re referencing sure so i i think probably

[00:13:42] uh the idea of probably uh justice uh the concepts of what constitutes

[00:13:48] justice uh being social political in other words uh our justice is constituted how do we

[00:13:55] liberate those groups who are oppressed by taking power from these oppressor groups and i think that’s sort of

[00:14:01] uh the practical side of that has consumed even the church and it’s taught a lot so for example uh you have

[00:14:09] uh if you look at the debate between women and ministry and men in ministry okay and and i don’t want to

[00:14:14] take a position there i’m just saying if you look at that debate discussion often it’s framed as hey women have not

[00:14:20] had power we need to have power we want to seat at the table we want to have power with men so it’s a fight over

[00:14:27] power okay and so everything is seen as a fight over who has power but the gospel

[00:14:34] itself is not about power it’s a matter of fact even those in leadership and there’s

[00:14:40] such a thing as right authority but we’re not but those in authority

[00:14:45] are uh almost handing over power because that’s what christ did christ modeled this idea of sacrificing

[00:14:51] he had the power to do great things but he laid aside his power so that he might serve so he was the humble

[00:14:57] you know a humble servant right he was not leadership yeah that servant leadership approach even so that’s really one of those challenges

[00:15:03] where you’ll see most often is in con in discussions of power and control

[00:15:09] even in church contexts where it’s always about hey well men have power women don’t or whites have it and blacks don’t or you

[00:15:17] name it it’s always these power struggles power struggles that’s really interesting yeah so that’s probably one of the most dominant themes

[00:15:24] so um the biblical approach to that when you’re talking about you know christ gave up power

[00:15:29] i mean even even a man in a household when we come when we approach from uh because you you’ll hear this the

[00:15:34] white paternal uh you know like hierarchy kind of sounds like a white

[00:15:40] um and the the truth is is that as a father um and as a husband i’m supposed to lay

[00:15:47] down my my life for my wife and my children um i’m leaving them true but i’m

[00:15:53] serving them uh leading them by serving them um so how how do you respond to that

[00:15:59] i mean can you expand a little bit on on your response what the biblical view versus critical race theory when it comes to power

[00:16:07] yeah so yeah again going back to their framework they see everything as

[00:16:12] every system is ultimately tends towards oppression there’s no system that isn’t ultimately

[00:16:19] oppressive and this goes back to sort of their the the neo-marxist you know marxist

[00:16:24] roots where you know uh there’s always this system in power there’s the you know there’s a

[00:16:30] thesis then there’s this counter thesis like hey we need to overcome that power so we come together we find a way to

[00:16:36] subvert that power but now there’s a new system and by definition all systems that have

[00:16:41] pat you know are are ruling are are oppressive so we need a new counter

[00:16:46] system to come over take that so there’s always constant revolution always throwing this over well that seems like a recipe for always

[00:16:53] being unsatisfied correct and so for us as believers what

[00:16:59] we have to realize is that when we hear these ideas of you know overthrowing white systems

[00:17:04] of power or changing institutional racism or systemic racism what is always meant by that is

[00:17:12] overthrowing the systems to import a new system but by definition

[00:17:17] there is never any system that won’t be oppressive at some point there’s no hope of reconciliation

[00:17:22] within that system so if you are because you’re white and because you’re a part even if you

[00:17:28] oppose racism racism as a white guy it doesn’t matter because you’re still

[00:17:33] part of the system and so because you’re always a part of that system the only way kevin conover

[00:17:39] can uh you can do it is to give up all power to give up all control to you know resign your positions to you

[00:17:47] know become somewhere else and let somebody else take the power and control and this is interesting because this

[00:17:53] results in the abdication of good healthy leadership uh potentially because with the whole

[00:18:00] kneeling with the whole um i’m i’m by the nature of my the color of my skin

[00:18:07] i’m guilty therefore i’ll step down and i’ll let somebody else step in who’s not necessarily

[00:18:12] qualified to actually do a good job of of uh serving and uh governing yeah and

[00:18:20] so we’ve seen that happen in a there’s a student government in a university up back in the northeast just a few weeks

[00:18:27] ago and the president and the vice president uh were both uh non-white folks who were voted in by the

[00:18:33] whole student body of the university but they stepped down say hey we have to give up our power so that we can

[00:18:39] fight this fight racism this is the only way we can do it so it didn’t matter that they would maybe be in a position to say hey we

[00:18:46] want to put policies in because the system itself is rooted

[00:18:51] in racism white people need to all give up power and give that over to non-whites so that

[00:18:57] new systems can be created a total revolution but here’s the problem even for them giving up those

[00:19:02] positions of power they still are part of the oppressive system so they’re still racist they’re

[00:19:08] still oppressed they still there’s nothing they could ever do to achieve uh a a right relationship nobody can have

[00:19:14] relationship because we’re always divided by the fight and struggle for power and so for christians we have to realize

[00:19:20] that as we are engaged in this debate we have to ask ask this simple question apologetically saying

[00:19:26] what’s the goal you know to your crt friends that are saying this what’s the end game what what do you

[00:19:31] hope to accomplish by xyz whatever it is you’re proposing but you’ll see that there

[00:19:36] what they don’t have is a way for healing reconciliation and loving one another because it can’t

[00:19:42] happen uh matter of fact that’s seen as a negative so for example in the church

[00:19:48] if you have a you know a racially or ethnically diverse church if you have a church that says

[00:19:54] you know 30 white and 30 uh black and you know 20 you know just down the the line you

[00:20:01] know hey we’re really an integrated racially hey we’re diverse church i have friends who have

[00:20:06] you know these crt friends who will say well that actually is a hurdle to ending racism

[00:20:13] because you because you’re white you think that because you have an integrated church that somehow

[00:20:18] that that that solves the problem somehow because you have a brother and sister in christ that somehow that makes

[00:20:24] it okay and so these are actually hurdles so integration and diversity are actually

[00:20:30] in many contexts seen as a hurdle to overcoming systemic racism

[00:20:36] i’m i’m confused on that how what do you mean what i know what do you mean it’s a

[00:20:42] hurdle you mean this it’s a integration is actually a problem yeah because here’s the here’s the

[00:20:49] thinking behind that because okay so because say okay i i pastor the last church i planted

[00:20:55] um i we were 51 non-white you know i mean we we we were a pretty diverse

[00:21:00] church but i but the idea is that though because we’re a part of society

[00:21:07] that is controlled by white power systems and white structures so whether that’s um you know the

[00:21:14] constitution or whether that’s just simply the idea of our economic structures all of those are

[00:21:20] rooted in racism so it doesn’t matter what locally i have within my church body

[00:21:27] if i think that somehow that diversity is a somehow ended racism then

[00:21:34] i’m a part of the problem not a part of the solution so i’ll give you another example a friend of mine years ago whenever

[00:21:40] there was a church down in south carolina and that white guy came in a white supremacist dude came in it was a black historic black church and

[00:21:46] he came in sat down for bible study and shot all the black parishioners in that study i don’t know if you remember that i remember that yeah i remember yeah

[00:21:53] and i posted like many others on facebook hey i’m praying for my brothers and sisters who are suffering and hurt me you know i pray the holy

[00:21:59] spirit bring them comfort i had again crt friends who would post

[00:22:04] on their posting on their walls uh if you are a white christian don’t call them brothers and sisters in

[00:22:10] christ because by calling them a brother and sister you are you are keeping us from recognizing the

[00:22:17] true systems of racial injustice in our world so in other words the idea of christian

[00:22:23] brotherhood is a hurdle to what crt defines as racism

[00:22:28] and so what is there what it uh you know for those of you listening again my guess is dr joe miller you can check

[00:22:34] him out at more than cake.org we’re discussing uh this issue critical race theory

[00:22:39] because this has become so prevalent i i’ve never seen it like this ever before i’ve had numerous

[00:22:46] discussions now personally i’ve had guests on the show many christian

[00:22:51] black brothers on the show who i’ve had discussions with about what’s happening with blm and you know

[00:22:57] the connections to marxism to communism to these sorts of things we are in a heated uh cultural war and i would i would say

[00:23:04] spiritual war in our country in which we really need to understand what in the world is going on where is this coming from

[00:23:10] and so uh what is the goal for that person like blm for example would you say that their fundamental

[00:23:18] philosophy joe is is critical race theory is that where they’re operating from yeah so black

[00:23:23] lives matter specifically uh their leadership has said yes we are you know trained marxists so they are

[00:23:30] true marxists in their approach not all critical race theory are pure marxists in that sense

[00:23:37] but yes they would embrace critical race theory from their marxist worldview and use it to overthrow again overthrow

[00:23:44] all power systems so when they say what they really mean is uh capitalism

[00:23:50] must be abolished um you know any vestiges of uh british common law would be all

[00:23:57] anything that has a western roots i mean ironically i mean the fact that hegel and marx and uh

[00:24:04] fiobach and all the thinkers who have come up who are the foundational thinkers behind critical theory are

[00:24:10] white western people that doesn’t seem to matter but yeah we’re extremely racist themselves

[00:24:15] yeah yeah so so they were extremely racist but but but they don’t what do they are

[00:24:21] they aware of that foundation of where that’s coming from the the blm people are for sure yeah i

[00:24:27] mean they’re they’re they’re how do they justify the idea that they’re supporting a philosoph

[00:24:33] a philosophy that came from people who were racist towards blacks i have you know it’s one of those things

[00:24:39] that just you you can’t find any straight answer they’d say well that was in the past those systems have

[00:24:44] been overthrown we’re because again they’re instituting in their mind a new system

[00:24:50] so they don’t have to say they don’t have to be subject to the history history doesn’t even matter

[00:24:56] that’s why because remember in so sort of this hegelian dialectic you know hegel is this philosopher guy that said

[00:25:01] you know there’s thesis antithesis synthesis so history is this process of you know

[00:25:08] here’s one idea here’s a new idea now let’s synthesize a new truth a new reality so the fact that there’s these

[00:25:14] corrupt histories in the name of marxist whatever are relevant because we’re so many generations past

[00:25:21] that we’re giving the new counter thesis to that so that we can have a new synthesis for our new reality

[00:25:26] that won’t be related to that at all so that’s how philosophically they would just discount it as

[00:25:32] meaningless okay now um so so it seems to me

[00:25:38] that when you when you say say i want to overthrow capitalism um i mean we’re talking about we’re

[00:25:45] talking about places like that employ you know hundreds of thousands of people we’re talking about

[00:25:50] things like google we’re talking about things like walmart we’re talking about things that everybody uses so

[00:25:55] how in the world can this gain any traction is what i want to know is like everybody who who looks at this must

[00:26:01] think well this is insane you want to just tear down everything you basically just want to destroy the world uh destroy our country

[00:26:09] how how has it gained any traction yeah you know here’s the thing is ironically

[00:26:15] marx you know talked about uh marx london those guys talked about you know the people that were sort of the useful idiots uh

[00:26:22] you know religion was the opiate of the people these sort of things where he’s very disparaging towards

[00:26:28] average people who who uh he could he felt could be easily manipulated into doing whatever needed to be done

[00:26:34] whether good or bad but uh for in his in his view but um i think the reality is that

[00:26:41] most people don’t see it that way because they’re not you know they’re saying well hey i don’t believe that you know

[00:26:46] all capitalism bad i’m just saying that there’s this systemic injustice i see racial injustice and i want to solve

[00:26:52] that so there’s an issue that people care about and should care about that has harmed people

[00:26:58] there’s been injustice towards blacks historically i mean all these things we could acknowledge

[00:27:04] and so they say there’s truth there they think hey this is just the way we can resolve it and i think we should

[00:27:10] resolve it so you’re opposed to you know eliminating racism and it’s it’s really that simple for most

[00:27:16] people is like racism bad this opposing good so if you oppose this

[00:27:21] system then you are bad uh but people aren’t thinking too deeply past that

[00:27:27] um yeah and that’s been a lot of my experience is um okay so there’s kind of this mixture

[00:27:33] of uh christianity with with um critical race theory yeah and it seems

[00:27:40] to be uh in a sense seeping into the churches i mean uh what what do we have to watch out for as christians

[00:27:46] you know going to church and and hearing people talk what should be what we be aware of that’s actually

[00:27:52] anti-biblical but in a sense sounds good you know sounds like yeah that’s a good thing right uh i mean i’ve i’ve seen it

[00:28:00] in my own sphere of influence that i have people talking about um you know

[00:28:07] just a bunch of things that are that are in the news that they’re like yeah we’ve got to stop this injustice but

[00:28:14] um for me there’s something that’s not vibing there there’s something that seems anti-biblical in a sense does that

[00:28:20] make sense what i’m saying oh for sure absolutely yeah yeah i don’t think it’s uh i don’t think

[00:28:27] critical race theory crt is we can’t synchronize that with our faith they they have

[00:28:34] they observe rightly that there is injustice in the world that some of that’s individual like some

[00:28:39] individuals are racist that systems themselves can be corrupted by racism but outside of observing a few you know

[00:28:47] those observations of uh what’s wrong their diagnosis of how it’s wrong or why

[00:28:54] it’s wrong and their prognosis for how to solve it are completely antithetical to uh biblical christianity

[00:29:00] so i would say for people um if you’re listening your pastor is talking about if they start throwing

[00:29:05] around this terminology i wouldn’t say that they bought into it but it would be a red flag to say hey maybe i need to have a conversation so

[00:29:11] if they’re using terms like um you know institutional racism or systemic racism

[00:29:18] again what do they mean by that you know some of those definitions could be compatible are compatible with with our

[00:29:24] christian way christians view the world but often they’re not you know most of the time they’re not so if they’re

[00:29:29] using those terms institutional racism systemic racism if they use terms like whiteness

[00:29:34] uh white privilege white fragility if you’re hearing any of those words you

[00:29:40] want to have a conversation with your pastor and say well what are you reading that’s giving you those things what do those things mean

[00:29:47] and if they’re citing certain authors who are crt authors like you know just you know some of

[00:29:55] those names then you want to probably uh go a little deeper in those conversations so

[00:30:00] you’re um so sit the word systemic racism institutionalized racism um white

[00:30:07] privilege i mean these are used very frequently yes among uh certain groups of christians i mean it’s

[00:30:13] it’s very common and it’s seen as a obvious thing so you’re saying that’s

[00:30:19] actually from crt yeah exactly well yeah the way the i mean obviously the idea that

[00:30:24] institutions could be corrupted by sin jesus talked about that yeah i mean you

[00:30:30] know the church you know the pharisees were as an institution were corrupted by sin

[00:30:35] so if that’s what we mean by it then that’s fine but they don’t mean just that so for

[00:30:41] example terms like whiteness can mean uh can mean race you know

[00:30:46] racial injustice they could mean white supremacy but they also just simply mean white majority so again if

[00:30:52] there’s a majority you know nine out of ten people are white then that is whiteness that is racism uh

[00:30:58] if but they also define christianity as a form of whiteness so christianity itself is a part of the

[00:31:05] systemic racism that needs to be stamped out and this is where christians are not getting

[00:31:11] it the idea of heteronormativity the idea that heterosexuality male and female

[00:31:16] being normative is considered a part of the oppressive structure of whiteness which is by

[00:31:22] definition also racism so it’s because all the terms mean end up meaning very much the same thing as

[00:31:28] you go through and define them you know so i see yes so you know i mean even though the definition that’s comfortable for them

[00:31:35] oh it means institutions could do bad stuff yes but that’s not all that’s meant and so we have to

[00:31:40] be very careful because they do have their they do have very specific ideology they have very specific uh

[00:31:46] thoughts in that regard um i mean blm has on their website at least they did at

[00:31:53] one time i don’t know if they still do but uh that they’re opposed to the nuclear family that that is a sign of uh institutionalization

[00:32:02] exactly you know nuclear family mother father kids uh like the idea of there’s

[00:32:10] only you know male and female sex as opposed to infinite you know spectrum of gender and gender

[00:32:16] fluidity transgender if you don’t embrace those that’s all a part of your trying to force this oppressive you know

[00:32:23] ideology on the world and that’s why christianity is a part of that white oppressive power structure

[00:32:29] and christianity has to also be uh overthrown in in how it works yeah

[00:32:34] well you would have you you would you would think that pastors would be well aware that okay well if this is

[00:32:41] completely the opposite of what the bible is teaching here so yeah yeah but

[00:32:46] and here’s why they’re not though this is this is the thing pastors for a long time have had um very facile understanding of the

[00:32:53] gospel and a very facile understanding of the culture it’s very superficial you know because it’s all

[00:32:58] very uh a you know uh populist thinking for a lot of people

[00:33:04] and so they’re just you know they listen they hear the phrase black lives matter which

[00:33:10] has political value but as an organ but they don’t they don’t think more deeply by well hey

[00:33:15] i want to say that i value black people what what’s wrong with that sure and so they say well sure i mean

[00:33:21] this organization has these other things but but but this phrase is so much value it’s like okay well it may

[00:33:27] have value but you have to realize what you’re signaling to people when you use those

[00:33:33] phrases is something very different than you even might want to align yourself with

[00:33:39] you don’t get to get control you’re not controlling the narrative or how the perception even though you’re using these words to

[00:33:44] try to prove to everybody you care and that you so we have to have new ways to do it in different ways that are

[00:33:50] gospel focused as opposed to culturally predicated you know politically motivated

[00:33:56] ways that that ultimately undermine the gospel more than cake.org is joe miller’s

[00:34:02] website joe so um if people want to support you uh and you you know you’ve got all kinds of

[00:34:08] resources on there yeah tell us a little bit about more than cake where did you come up with that name years ago i i did that name oh man more

[00:34:15] than decade or so ago i don’t know 20 years ago uh you know it’s this idea of marie antoinette you know whenever the people in the french

[00:34:22] were starving and you know bread was the source of sustenance and there wasn’t enough

[00:34:27] you know resources so she said she never said it but the idea was she said let them eat cake

[00:34:33] so cake was the alternative to bread but cake is a confection it’s sugary it makes you

[00:34:38] feel good like you’re full but it doesn’t give you nutrition right yeah and i felt like the church was

[00:34:45] offering nothing uh offering only cake from our from our pulpits and our

[00:34:51] theology and i wanted to offer the church more than cake more than something made us feel good in our little tummies

[00:34:56] but something that would be nutrition you know yeah a solid food of the gods something to help us help us grow

[00:35:01] yeah so i’ve got a bunch i’ve got several videos that i’ve produced on this so a quick intro a very short

[00:35:08] intro to what’s critical theory itself is these four facets of critical race theory

[00:35:13] which we you know i mean great conference we didn’t get all four so people need to know all four i have one on whiteness i have a few

[00:35:19] more coming uh what is that what is the third one and the fourth one the third and fourth sure so the third one is the idea that

[00:35:27] individuality is really incidental uh in critical race theory

[00:35:32] so by contrast uh critical theory itself under see sort of marxist neo-marxist

[00:35:38] ideas individuality doesn’t even exist it’s a fiction it’s a fantasy there is no such thing as the individual

[00:35:44] it’s only the corporate it’s only the state that exists uh for critical race theory it’s more

[00:35:49] than individuality as well it may exist but it’s not really it’s secondary uh to uh the group that you identify

[00:35:57] with so rights are confirmed based on your group status that’s why only you know a certain skin

[00:36:03] color can be racist or not racist uh because it depends on your status in a group uh that’s why

[00:36:10] what people call identity politics yeah identity politics is sort of down that line um it’s why it’s why a

[00:36:17] white uh that’s why a white woman can go up to a black cop and call him the n-word and

[00:36:23] tell him he’s a racist and he is you know give him the finger and yell at him and not be a racist

[00:36:30] because she’s speaking against the system that he’s a part of

[00:36:36] so that individual cop has no rights even though he’s black because because he’s a part of the wrong

[00:36:42] system the oppressive system his identity is bound up in that he can be his rights can be trampled

[00:36:48] because they don’t exist it’s very uh problematic so that’s the third one that’s really

[00:36:54] interesting to me also because from a biblical perspective would you say that god emphasizes the individual

[00:37:00] over a group because we do know that the bible does emphasize uh collective yeah absolutely

[00:37:08] so so break that down for us what that the individual the biblical view of the individual

[00:37:13] right versus what critical race theory is doing which is placing you with a particular group yeah

[00:37:19] this is one of the reasons why the church has been so vulnerable to this and this will appeal i know to some of what you’ve talked with your students

[00:37:24] and others about i think long ago when the church started to get into these ideas of

[00:37:30] theistic evolution we started to lose ground on what makes us

[00:37:35] uniquely human where is our identity grounded you see the thing behind me the imago day

[00:37:40] yeah on my shirt i wear the hebrew batalam elohim from genesis 1 27 in the image of god

[00:37:47] and these are these are actually things i make shirts i made you know selling these trying to like here’s our message is the alternative

[00:37:54] to what the political messages that we see as opposed to even all lives matter as a

[00:37:59] political message it’s not one of of being um and so i don’t like any of those things

[00:38:06] so what by doing that though what we’ve lost ground uh by buying the theistic evolution is

[00:38:11] we’ve lost the sense of being made in the image of god it’s it’s much trickier thing to identify and

[00:38:17] so we can’t define it as well and so we’ve lost ground here and there and over time what’s happened is we’ve bought into

[00:38:24] this idea that the group determines our rights and privileges which is key but for the christian our

[00:38:30] identity our primary identity is always in that we are created by

[00:38:36] elohim in the image of god and we bear the identity of our maker and yes there are such a thing as you

[00:38:44] know skin color and cultures and all these things that create you know categories of

[00:38:49] people but those are secondary to our ultimate identity in christ in

[00:38:56] creation but then also in christ who christ breaks down those dividing

[00:39:02] walls of culture so yes there is discrimination based on group identity but christ has broken down those things

[00:39:08] so he could restore us to the place of being in the image of god and so

[00:39:14] those things still exist in our world so we can speak out against those systems of injustice that we see

[00:39:21] but not because people are primarily identified with a group but because primarily we identify in the

[00:39:27] image of god but also being restored into the in that image through the work of jesus christ

[00:39:33] so that’s our pathway to undermining those corrupt systems that we see and so as

[00:39:39] the church we have to recognize that yes we have our identity as a family as the household of god

[00:39:44] and not of the households of the world that you know are often corrupt and oppressive oh yeah but but that identity

[00:39:52] as of being a brothers and sisters of christ is the pathway to overcoming oppression and

[00:39:58] healing racial reconciliation critical theory sees that as a path that

[00:40:03] blocks true overcoming of oppression so even the christians say well identifying it like i said earlier

[00:40:10] as a brother and sister in christ well that’s a that’s an obstacle to a coming overcoming world these systems of

[00:40:15] oppression that’s why they see christianity as oppressive yeah yeah or a tool to oppress

[00:40:24] yep yeah yeah yeah and whereas uh the bible is very clear there is no jew or greek there is no slave or free

[00:40:30] there is no male or female we’re all one in christ which like you said it it it erases those boundaries and this

[00:40:38] is where we have to be careful when we say that though and this is where we need to learn from the dialogue with those who have

[00:40:43] embraced crt so when when when jesus you know when the scripture tells us that we’re you know these things you know neither male nor

[00:40:49] female june or free slave or whatever all one in christ it’s not speaking it’s not saying that

[00:40:55] those things don’t exist so to say oh i don’t see color or i don’t see race

[00:41:01] that’s not really true that’s not it’s not saying we become blind to the realities of a world

[00:41:06] that uses those things to categorize and oppress it’s saying that those things don’t

[00:41:12] become our primary identity through which we you know can have relationship

[00:41:18] so primarily our identity of relationship is now through this new one through christ but i recognize that a world

[00:41:24] that’s broken those things still control perceptions maybe even my own

[00:41:29] and i have to overcome my own you know biases and my own bigotry that i was raised in

[00:41:36] that that made me uh sort of numb to what really could be happening that is

[00:41:42] harmful to people that are you know not of my background yeah yeah well that’s fantastic uh

[00:41:48] more than cake.org if you guys want to learn more about uh dr joe miller and his ministry and what he’s doing if you’d like to support what he’s doing

[00:41:54] um it’s awesome stuff and like like you said it’s it’s deeper it’s the solid meat

[00:42:00] that we need it’s not from milk it’s moving beyond um what makes you feel good to what is good

[00:42:05] so um i really encourage you to check that out uh joe i really appreciate you taking the time to be on the program today and

[00:42:11] hopefully we can do a follow-up program because i think there’s a lot more to this than what we’ve covered just now so yeah next time in studio brother though yeah

[00:42:17] we’re willing it’ll happen i know life is crazy for all of us but man that uh so much more fun to face to face it

[00:42:23] is amen amen to that i can’t wait to get back to uh hopefully uh you know we get over this

[00:42:29] crazy stuff and once the election happens a lot of people are saying this will diminish so i hope it’s true we’ll see

[00:42:37] okay god bless you joe thanks a lot for all you have been with us today more than cake.org my website is

[00:42:43] educate4life.org uh you can check it out all kinds of resources available to you so that you can become equipped

[00:42:49] to be able to be salt and light to the people around you and really have an influence for christ in their life and uh god bless

[00:42:56] you i hope you have a fantastic weekend and um that you’re blessed stay safe and walk with the lord

[00:43:02] take care we’ll see you next time

[00:43:25] you