Two Commissions – Dr. James Fazio

[00:00:00] 719. and now here’s your host kevin conover bring your time

[00:00:06] welcome to educate for life i’m your host kevin conover my website’s educate4life.org and if you’re watching us streaming

[00:00:12] we’re down here in local in southern california we’re on k praise 12 10 a.m also on fm 106.1 in

[00:00:18] north county so uh thanks for joining us uh i can tell you uh you know all about my ministry you’ve

[00:00:24] heard it if you’ve listened before um it’s an apologetics curriculum that’s meant to help you learn to defend your

[00:00:29] faith it’s uh comprehensive it’s systematic and it’s really supposed to help you deal with all the

[00:00:35] real world issues that you run into when you’re talking to your relatives over the holidays or you’re talking to somebody on a club sports

[00:00:40] team or just some neighbor at work whatever it’s supposed to help you be able to respond to the the

[00:00:46] questions and the um statements that people make about reality and uh help you understand the word of

[00:00:52] god more deeply so you can check that out educate4life.org today we have a awesome guest his name

[00:00:58] is dr james fazio he is the dean of the bible and theology department and professor of biblical

[00:01:03] studies at southern california seminary you can check them out at socalsem.edu

[00:01:09] and he has written several books and a big part of the focus

[00:01:14] is on the reformation and i think a lot of people don’t um understand the huge significance of the reformation it’s not

[00:01:20] something you hear pastors talk a lot about they don’t talk very often about dispensationalism um

[00:01:26] not something you hear too often but something that’s critically important to your understanding of the bible uh dr fazio thanks for being on yeah

[00:01:32] well thank you so much for having me kevin i know i’ve seen you around and we’ve crossed our paths quite a bit i’ve

[00:01:38] seen the show heard the show and yeah so yeah it’s kind of neat to be here it is i i’m really excited to have you and um

[00:01:43] we’re right across the street from each other which is kind of funny so that’s right yeah but in fact i’ll tell you one one more

[00:01:48] thing uh you know a lot of times in the evenings when i’ve got my students i’m i’m teaching in your classroom oh look at that i wondered why there’s

[00:01:56] so much you know like candy wrappers and stuff in there and now i know no i’m just kidding

[00:02:01] but um so uh you wrote uh this book two commissions i think this is really

[00:02:07] interesting i don’t think i’ve ever heard a book that’s focused on this subject in particular and then um of course uh forge from

[00:02:13] reformation which uh corey marsh was on quite a while ago talking about that um so why is it that pastors don’t

[00:02:21] typically talk about uh dispensationalism when it’s a subject that really affects

[00:02:27] the way the lens through which you read the scriptures yeah why isn’t that something that comes up more often in our in our

[00:02:33] you know sunday services yeah well for one it’s theology and i think pastors like to avoid

[00:02:38] theology and keep it as simple as possible yeah um theology and doctrine just tends to

[00:02:43] turn a lot of people off yeah and and for those that like it they usually know where to get that itch scratched you know they’ve got their

[00:02:49] their radio personalities or their books or whatever they where they go to for it yeah and so a lot of pastors like to be a lot more

[00:02:56] practical and deal with real life issues and just uh try to meet people immediately

[00:03:01] kind of stuff and so they tend to avoid that also because it’s kind of divisive i mean everybody has an opinion on it

[00:03:08] and um and whether they really know you know often there’s not a lot of knowledge

[00:03:13] about it but there’s there’s enough you know based on what somebody else said or they they’ve heard they don’t like it or somebody doesn’t like it or

[00:03:19] their perspective on eschatology the end times how that’s going to play out you know left behind theology or uh

[00:03:26] uh kingdom now you know a millennial theology or whatever it is you know that and and so based on just different

[00:03:33] uh exposure that they’ve had they tend to just shy away from a lot of theological issues some people

[00:03:40] take it very personally and get all heated about it but i think it’s worth talking about and worth knowing about um i find this

[00:03:45] really interesting i kind of want to start with this because i think it’s a good segue into the whole

[00:03:50] issue you wrote this book called two commissions for those of you watching here you can you can check it out here

[00:03:56] it’s called two commissions uh two missionary mandates in matthew’s gospel and uh you know we think of the great

[00:04:02] commission uh matthew chapter 28 yeah but um explain what you mean when by the title of this book

[00:04:08] two commissions for our listeners yeah and that’s it i i think there’s probably very few christians that are

[00:04:14] unfamiliar with the great commission they know where to find it matthew 28 um they know what it sounds

[00:04:20] like many might even have it memorized uh and so the point of the title is to sort of get your attention that

[00:04:25] it’s not the only commission that appears in matthew’s gospel there is a commission that jesus gave while he

[00:04:32] was on earth that sounded quite different than the commission he gave after he had risen from from the grave

[00:04:39] and that commission appears very clearly very vividly in plain text as clear as matthew 28 commission

[00:04:46] matthew chapter 10 and in fact whereas uh with the same degree of clarity that you know go e

[00:04:53] into all the world and proclaim to all nations and so on and so forth in matthew 10 you have

[00:04:59] a very the same pattern but it says do not go the way of the gentiles that’s

[00:05:05] how it starts do not go the way of the gentiles so it’s actually not saying go into the ends of the earth it’s

[00:05:11] saying only go to this very narrow segment of people yeah and then it says what to say instead of saying teaching them all

[00:05:17] things i have commanded you and so on and so forth he says tell them repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand

[00:05:23] it’s a very narrow message as well and in fact we see when when we see matthew’s presentation of of

[00:05:31] the gospel he begins very early on in the early chapters of that gospel he begins with

[00:05:37] john the baptist’s presentation yeah okay which was preaching in the wilderness repent

[00:05:43] for the kingdom of heaven is at hand and so what we see is that jesus is preaching

[00:05:48] the nature and the character of jesus’s preaching and it’s not just there in matthew 10 it

[00:05:54] is entirely consistent with his entire three and a half years of ministry because we have entire sermons that

[00:06:00] jesus preached matthew 5 through 7 give us you know the most detailed

[00:06:05] sermon of jesus and it’s it goes into everything he said and guess what you don’t see the language that every

[00:06:12] christian preacher would you know john 3 16 is not contained in matthew 5

[00:06:17] through 7. yeah so there is a content difference in preaching uh throughout jesus ministry and

[00:06:24] throughout the ministries of the apostles afterwards and that contrast it’s not

[00:06:29] because the apostles were being disobedient or were being out of sync with jesus’s in fact it was

[00:06:35] completely in line with what jesus commanded them to do the great commission was go unto the ends of the earth and

[00:06:42] preach this message and and of course we see at pentecost we see peter preaching a message and we

[00:06:50] see carried on from from peter onward throughout the book of acts and as paul gets a hold of it and starts

[00:06:56] preaching we see the character and the content of their message and it is effectively the message that

[00:07:01] we preached that christ died for our sins was buried was resurrected

[00:07:06] he is ascended and and you know the the the the very gospel that we preach today is the gospel that

[00:07:12] the early church beginning with the disciples were sent out to preach so getting back to the two commissions

[00:07:19] what jesus preached his whole life the very message which he sent them out

[00:07:24] to preach while he was on earth was of a very different character than what we see from acts and onward

[00:07:31] through today for 2000 years yeah and this can be a little bit um can kind of make somebody kind of

[00:07:38] feel like whoa what’s happening here you know it can be kind of astonishing to somebody when they begin to look at the words of jesus christ

[00:07:44] and they look at the words of say uh the apostle paul and you see one that says confess with

[00:07:49] your mouth jesus the lord believe in your heart that god raised from the dead and you’ll be saved but then you look over here and he’s saying things like repent for the

[00:07:55] kingdom of heaven is near and you go wait a second what’s going on here and this is where the whole

[00:08:01] um idea of dispensationalism comes into play because once you un begin to understand

[00:08:06] that the pieces start to begin to fall together so absolutely for our listeners because a lot of people have no idea what

[00:08:11] dispensationalism is can you ex give a breakdown of what that is yeah absolutely um and and of course you know

[00:08:19] it’s it’s the theology that’s been presented most often through charts visually right you know in other words charting through

[00:08:24] history yeah and it’s not incorrect at all in fact it’s very useful you know picture they say a picture is worth a thousand

[00:08:29] words so i understand that but but beyond saying where where does history divide it’s it

[00:08:35] i’d like to to take it down to a much more base level and just say it is simply understanding

[00:08:40] in fact i’d even i’d even begin with the verses of hebrews which say god who in time past spoke to

[00:08:45] the fathers by the prophets hath in these last days spoken unto us through his son jesus christ

[00:08:52] so the issue is god has operated differently with man throughout time now

[00:08:58] i just want to begin at that most fundamental level yeah and and and you know before we start

[00:09:04] saying how many dispensations and what is the difference between this and that look let’s just start with this god placed adam and eve in the garden

[00:09:10] and he gave them a diet he said eat this don’t eat that yeah and when we look at that diet we see it was a diet that

[00:09:16] consisted of fruits and vegetables nuts and only that which grew on plants

[00:09:22] yeah we would call that a vegan diet yeah it doesn’t seem like it even included honey or any animal byproduct

[00:09:28] right so again we’d call it like straight vegan is what he gave them right well we know a little later

[00:09:35] noah steps off the ark and he says now all the animals are for you to eat basically just everything you want you

[00:09:41] can eat it’s all on board yeah until a little bit later the days of israel

[00:09:46] and god tells israel you have a specific diet now you’re still allowed to eat meat

[00:09:52] but not this meat and if it has if it’s this kind of animal and it has a split hoof and it chews the cut and now all of

[00:09:58] a sudden there’s all this great detail with sea you know the the the sea creatures and shellfish and you know what you can eat

[00:10:04] what you can’t and you say whoa this just got way complex right and and then for you know you’ve got that

[00:10:09] that goes for for over a thousand years and then you have this remarkable occurrence with peter

[00:10:16] who had kept that diet throughout his from his youth and jesus tells him arise peter

[00:10:21] kill and eat when he saw every four-footed beast and he said no no not not me lord

[00:10:27] because you know no unclean thing passes through these lips i’m a good jew as you’ve told me and yet god is saying

[00:10:33] you can eat all things now how many diets did god give right just right there we’ve counted

[00:10:39] four diets that every single one of them was given directly by the mouth of god it wasn’t

[00:10:44] like weirdly interpreted they didn’t misunderstand it god gave different diets at different

[00:10:50] times now i would also say in different dispensations in other words it’s recognizing that each of these diets

[00:10:56] is indicative of an entire lifestyle an entire walk that man was to have before

[00:11:02] god that was that was uh quite substantially different in some ways not in every way but the

[00:11:09] diet itself is a reflection of the fact that god is relating to man differently throughout times

[00:11:14] we all recognize that god related differently to man before and after the fall in the garden yeah

[00:11:20] nobody’s going to argue with that i mean that’s plain as days and we would also recognize that god dealt differently with man before and

[00:11:26] after the flood that dietary is only one indication god also instituted human government

[00:11:31] whereas cain kills his own brother and god says i will set a mark on you to make sure that nobody avenges his death

[00:11:37] right you know you you will not be killed for killing and yet with noah when violence had abounded in the way it

[00:11:43] was in the on the earth in that time god says from this point forward if anyone takes a life

[00:11:49] his life shall be taken god preserved cain for taking a life and now god is saying

[00:11:56] if a man takes a life the man’s blood shall be taken so it is you know we could we could look

[00:12:01] at before israel after israel we could look at before the cross after the cross i think every christian recognizes that

[00:12:06] something pops into my head that i hear often as an apologist is you’ll hear people say the god of the

[00:12:12] old testament is a different god from the god of the new testament and you hear this as a complaint frequently that the god of the old

[00:12:18] testament is full of wrath and violence and uh the god of the new testament is loving and you know died on the cross

[00:12:24] yeah so how do you respond to somebody from that from what what does that mean for dispensationalism when you’re talking about that are you talking like

[00:12:30] the way to be saved in the old testament is different than the way to be saved in the new testament right so the first thing is is to recognize

[00:12:37] that there is discontinuity you know to use kind of that that phrase or to say that there

[00:12:43] is a a difference there is a distinction not just because there’s a distinction yeah it doesn’t mean

[00:12:49] everything is completely different it just means there are distinctions to be recognized yeah you know um and

[00:12:57] and yet there are a tremendous amount of similarities there is continuity as well as discontinuity and

[00:13:03] and that’s that’s really the main issue is to realize what has remained constant and what has

[00:13:09] changed and you know it’s quite irresponsible to suggest nothing has changed yes anybody can look

[00:13:15] at it and say there’s certainly some changes here so the point is simply saying focusing in on what is it that has

[00:13:22] changed here yeah and that is the dispensational perspective not not to say salvation has changed or man

[00:13:28] has been saved by different means throughout time that god you know now saves by grace through faith but previously

[00:13:34] he saved you know in another way yeah the focus in dispensationalism is realizing what it is that god demands

[00:13:40] of man now first of all let’s be clear about it we know the gospel the gospel is not that god demands

[00:13:47] something of man the gospel is that god has done something for man and it is by faith that we are saved

[00:13:52] okay it was by faith that abraham was justified not because abraham didn’t act okay man has never

[00:13:59] been saved by works yeah and so therefore dispensationalism is is exactly yeah exactly so so

[00:14:06] we’re coming up on a break here but i want to kind of throw this out there beforehand um which is i want to ask you you know

[00:14:13] why is this such an important subject to be aware of how does it change the way

[00:14:19] you think and act and live out your christianity from a practical standpoint

[00:14:24] why is this understanding of dispensation and what is it what does it open up for our

[00:14:30] listener who’s thinking to themself well how is this going to change the way i read the bible does that make sense what i’m saying

[00:14:36] absolutely yeah so we’re going to be right back my guest today is dr james fazio he is the dean

[00:14:41] of bible and theology at southern california seminary if you want to dig a little bit deeper in your walk with god

[00:14:47] you can check it out socalsem.edu and um really get uh there’s some fantastic

[00:14:53] professors out there who can really help you understand the word of god and uh really allow it to speak to you what it

[00:15:00] has to say so that you can really um begin to live out your christianity

[00:15:06] uh in truth rather than kind of blindly hoping that you’re you’re doing the right thing so stay with us we’re going to be right

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[00:16:48] hey thanks for being with us today this is educate for life radio i’m your host kevin conover my guest today is dr james fazio

[00:16:55] and uh he is the dean of bible and theology over at southern california seminary you can check them out at

[00:17:01] socalsem.edu you guys know my website you should by now if you’ve been listening for any amount of time it’s educate4life.org

[00:17:07] and i’ve been teaching apologetics for 12 years at christian high schools i teach 12th grade students

[00:17:13] and help them learn how to defend their faith but it’s really applicable to all ages honestly i preach at churches sometimes and a lot

[00:17:19] of the a lot of the adults say oh man this is so great you teach that at a level i can understand

[00:17:24] so um hopefully you can check that out sometime and and enjoy it and we’ve got free previews up there for you

[00:17:31] too it’s a really big help to anybody um wanting to teach a bible study or a

[00:17:36] homeschool co-op or anything like that so check it out when you get a chance so uh dr fazio we we were just talking

[00:17:43] about you know um how this book the two commissions um really shows us that jesus christ was

[00:17:50] at the crux of one of the the changes in the dispensations and so that’s why there’s this difference

[00:17:57] in the gospel of matthew and then you get over to paul and it almost seems like they’re preaching two separate messages but in fact

[00:18:03] they’re not it’s just has to do with the dispensation right yeah you know it’s funny i mean um

[00:18:09] however one re reacts or responds to that word of some get get you know very

[00:18:14] annoyed by it or or very antsy and say oh no that’s just absolutely you know nothing i want anything to do with

[00:18:20] yeah and yet i would say christians of all stripes would would agree that there is

[00:18:26] absolutely a difference between how man was supposed to live before and after the cross um if we are not

[00:18:34] carrying an animal to the altar and and of course god removed israel’s ability to do that in 70 a.d so

[00:18:40] he basically said look you know not only have i have i changed the dispensation here but i’m not even permitting you to

[00:18:46] continue on in that dispensation you know the book of hebrews was was so strong about look you can’t go back and do this anymore once you’ve

[00:18:52] tasted you know this new life in christ you can’t just return to that the the sacrificial system we have this

[00:18:58] sacrifice that was made once for all so the blood of bulls and of goats you know can’t take away sins you have to just keep repeating it but once

[00:19:04] you’ve accepted christ you go on in christ and that’s the only gospel we’ve known i

[00:19:09] mean we being gentiles you know ephesians speaks to us we who were you know dead in our trespasses and sins

[00:19:16] that’s who we were aliens from the commonwealth of christ right we’re the ones who have been been made alive we’ve been brought

[00:19:23] into a participation with the glorious gospel so for us we only know this new life

[00:19:30] in christ but you could imagine the challenge it must have been for the hebrews when when the author of hebrews was having to

[00:19:36] address those people and say listen this is how our forefathers dealt with god but we

[00:19:42] have a different walk yeah and you know so again it’s one of those things just recognizing that distinction in itself i

[00:19:48] mean again i’ll give you a very basic distinction a dispensational distinction

[00:19:55] dispensationalists realize the difference between these three peoples if you will the jews the gentiles

[00:20:02] and the church of god now these are three terms which are very clearly used paul uses give no offense either to the jews

[00:20:07] nor to the greeks nor to the church of god right these are three different people groups and the

[00:20:12] jewish people were obviously called out people they were called out from all the rest of the people all the rest

[00:20:19] the remainder being gentiles that doesn’t mean god loved the jews and despised the gentiles in fact we have

[00:20:25] entire books the bible dedicated to jonah comes to mind where he sends a prophet of israel to yeah

[00:20:33] nineveh a gentile people and he says you know preach repentance to them yeah and of course the whole reason why

[00:20:40] jonah doesn’t want to is because they’re they’re gentiles right they don’t deserve repentance yeah and of course god will

[00:20:45] have mercy and compassion on whom he will have yeah so the point is there are obviously these

[00:20:50] distinctions and and and we need to recognize those distinctions when we consider these different things of how

[00:20:56] god was dealing with israel at that time and how god is dealing with with with gentiles so we all everybody

[00:21:03] who’s saved right now i mean if we’re not jewish descent you know we’re certainly not coming out of judaism yeah so we have a a very different

[00:21:10] perspective than the first century jew which is who the entire new testament was aimed at

[00:21:15] right it was aimed at the first century jew yeah an entirely different perspective it’s even one of the reasons why the book of

[00:21:21] hebrews reads in a very different character than all the epistles that paul wrote two gentiles you know whether

[00:21:27] rome corinth galatia ephesus wherever they’re gentile backgrounds right he was the apostles people with no jewish

[00:21:33] heritage so hebrews is very different in character because it’s speaking to people who passed

[00:21:39] out of that dispensation as the people of god and into this dispensation as the people

[00:21:45] of god there’s tremendous continuity there because they have crossed over and you look at the disciples

[00:21:51] each one of them jewish they crossed over from being the people of god into being this people of god from the

[00:21:57] household of faith to the household of faith but that’s the household of israel into the new creation

[00:22:03] which is made so abundantly clear in the new testament neither jew nor greek but a new creation in christ jesus

[00:22:09] right entirely different new creation so again when we look at it we really only

[00:22:16] have this perspective this born again from a gentile dead in our trespasses and sins now

[00:22:22] alive to christ and so we need to be careful um about about just you know taking taking this

[00:22:30] this this continuity perspective and thinking that it’s just always been you

[00:22:35] know reading ourselves into the the stories of israel yeah because because certainly we share a spiritual heritage

[00:22:42] you know as as part of the household of of abraham the household of faith right faith like abraham yeah and yet

[00:22:50] israel’s story is not our story you know we certainly can learn from it

[00:22:56] i mean all scripture is given by inspiration of god it’s profitable for our life for our living so that we can

[00:23:01] go on into maturity yeah however making that distinction understanding that the the

[00:23:06] journey which they traveled is not our journey and you know again that doesn’t mean that in the household of faith

[00:23:11] we’re not one people yeah but we are neither jew nor gentile we are a new creation oh yeah right i mean he says i will

[00:23:18] build my church right and so that’s very clear he hadn’t built it till that point is what jesus says and so um you know

[00:23:25] so when it comes to dispensationalism um you know one of the questions that pops

[00:23:30] up is why would god do it this way uh you know why would he what what is the point i mean

[00:23:36] god is all-knowing uh he’s very wise uh he he knows what he needs to do why

[00:23:42] would he start everybody off in the garden then why would he move it to you know uh moses and the israelites and then why

[00:23:48] would he move it to uh the church right what’s what’s the whole point of that i is that laid out in scripture well you

[00:23:55] know it it is obviously the question is answered by theology it’s answered by reading all

[00:24:02] of scripture i mean it’s not it it doesn’t we don’t have the verse that tells us quite so simply except

[00:24:07] you know we can glean it a little here in a little there i’ll give you one great one um in galatians paul tells us that the

[00:24:12] law was a tutor right or a schoolmaster it actually uses a greek word that means like a pedagogue

[00:24:19] it was it was basically a greek tutor i mean somebody who you brought in to

[00:24:24] to teach school your kids that became an all day sort of a babysitter of a complete

[00:24:29] you know raised the kid in in all their knowledge and instruction until they came into maturity so it says

[00:24:35] the law was a school master some translations say to bring us to christ until christ came

[00:24:42] and that’s the whole point of the book of galatians right yeah now once we’ve come to christ we no longer are under the school master

[00:24:49] and so why do it well anybody who’s ever raised a kid i think can kind of answer the question

[00:24:55] of why i mean you know we understand that we develop differently there are stages

[00:25:01] of development yeah uh you know it’s understood in child raising and in education and in

[00:25:06] any kind of pedagogy you need to understand that people need to to be brought

[00:25:11] along into maturity and of course that’s always the subject we just quoted second timothy 3 16 of you know

[00:25:17] scripture is to bring us into maturity yeah and the issue is that um

[00:25:23] it’s necessary for man not for god because we know with god there is no changing you know so why does god change is god changing

[00:25:29] his mind no no no in fact one of the best pictures to answer that question i think is

[00:25:34] is used in that parental relationship that we have i’m a father of four kids and they’re

[00:25:39] different ages so although i don’t have different standards or expectations in terms of

[00:25:46] what i want in other words i want them all to have godly character i want them to be diligent to do their work to obey their parents and so on you

[00:25:53] know we there are certain things we want of our kids but how should they live out in obedience is determined

[00:26:01] by their level of development so for instance going out into the street is an absolute

[00:26:06] no-no for the little one but when i ask the older one to take the trash cans down to the street it

[00:26:12] necessitates going down to the street retreat because i’ve changed my mind about is the street dangerous or isn’t

[00:26:17] it but it’s because based on their level of development as a little child the street’s a no-no

[00:26:23] that’s a law and you don’t cross that law but for the older one the street is dangerous but

[00:26:28] you know how to negotiate it and so it really comes down to the progressive

[00:26:34] nature of god’s revelation of himself to his people yeah which is throughout time has

[00:26:41] has changed not because there’s any shadow of turning with god because god is the same yesterday today and forever but because man has

[00:26:48] necessarily needed gradual development to get to the place of maturity and we need that historical context to be able to

[00:26:55] reflect on what god is doing and for us to grow and mature we need to be able to see what god did in the past and

[00:27:01] then see where he’s moving and that kind of scripture is beneficial to all of us right that’s why the whole story of scripture

[00:27:06] is so important for us and it’s been retained god has has preserved his word uh for us for that very reason and uh

[00:27:14] again we’re coming up on a break here but i want to uh kind of tease to the to the next segment which is um i’m very curious it’s

[00:27:20] interesting this progressive um growth of uh humanity uh in their understanding of god and and

[00:27:27] i’m wondering you know where we’re at currently and what does that growth look like we’ve been through where a lot

[00:27:34] of people think we’re coming to the end of the church age and the question becomes what’s next and

[00:27:39] what is god doing in these next things because a lot of times we we or at least it feels like

[00:27:46] where we’re at now is the end-all be-all of what it means to be a christian but yet the future holds so much more

[00:27:52] that god has in store for us and i’m just curious to get your thoughts on that and and uh so we’ll be right back

[00:27:58] my guest today is dr james fazio uh dean of bible and theology at southern california seminary

[00:28:03] stay with us we’re having a fantastic [Music]

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[00:29:41] hey thanks for staying with us if you’re uh just joining us uh we’re having a fantastic conversation we’re down here

[00:29:47] in southern california on k praise kprz 12 10 am and fm 106.1

[00:29:53] in north county we’re also going to be all over youtube we’ll be on facebook we’ll be on my website

[00:29:59] educate4life.org i’ve got uh tons of shows up there with all kinds of people

[00:30:05] including people like k arthur um she’s a worldwide ministry she’s in her 90s now

[00:30:11] but done an incredible uh has an incredible life story and testimony of what christ has done through her

[00:30:16] i’ve got people like dr james torre one of the top 50 scientists in the world talking about why evolution doesn’t work

[00:30:21] we’ve got archaeologists talking about incredible findings demonstrating the validity of the history recorded in the bible

[00:30:28] all kinds of good stuff for you to listen to and we’re having a fantastic discussion right now with dr james fazio

[00:30:34] of southern california seminary we’ve been talking about um we’ve been talking about what’s called dispensationalism

[00:30:40] and uh there’s a lot of conflict in the church right now and a lot of people don’t know why it’s

[00:30:45] kind of undercover and you don’t hear that word too often and so um it’s not something a lot of people think

[00:30:52] about and but it’s it’s really worth talking about because it has a lot to do with how you read the bible

[00:30:57] a lot with how you understand what god is doing throughout history and uh dr fazio we left off kind of

[00:31:02] talking about uh you know that all dispensationalism really is saying is that at different

[00:31:08] times god did things differently i loved how you broke down you know the different diets just the way he expected adam and eve to

[00:31:15] all you know vegan essentially then he tells noah he can eat anything then he tells moses hey guys

[00:31:21] you can eat a lot of stuff but you can’t eat certain kinds of meat like you know the the hoof with the cleft in

[00:31:27] it and these things and then in the new testament all of a sudden hey you can eat everything and so that

[00:31:33] just shows us god uh is acting differently within uh to help the the huma humanity really

[00:31:41] um grow and mature so i have a ton of questions that i want to cover if we have time but why don’t we start with where are we

[00:31:49] now in your mind um with all the current events that are going crazy a lot of people are like hey you know is

[00:31:54] is christ going to be coming back soon and then of course people who don’t believe in dispensational say no no he’s

[00:32:00] not coming back soon that doesn’t even happen what are you talking about yeah well hopefully not um

[00:32:05] in the sense that it has been the healthy expectation of the church since christ ascended into the clouds

[00:32:14] that he will return yeah i think whether you’re pre-millennialist a millennialist post-millennialist

[00:32:19] wherever you are in that spectrum you are awaiting christ’s second coming yeah so the question is

[00:32:26] what is he coming to do now that’s where we’re going to have some differences on what it is we think he’s coming back

[00:32:31] to do yeah but hopefully it is the christian hope it is the bedrock of our hope yeah that he is

[00:32:39] coming again and we should be watching and waiting for that and if we’re not we have to really wonder if we have

[00:32:46] departed in some way from christianity from its very beginning yeah and so

[00:32:51] um yeah i i don’t think that there are many christians that would you know disparage the idea that christ

[00:32:57] is coming again yeah that is the hope that we’re looking for but um again what what form

[00:33:03] and what shape does that take is certainly what’s hotly debated among christians and why is there even that

[00:33:08] debate why is that conflict even exist i mean is there some is it is it unclear in the scriptures

[00:33:14] yeah the issue again it gets back to this dispensational perspective on scripture

[00:33:20] if we understand these everything we’ve discussed so far that god has worked with israel

[00:33:27] for a time and then he has worked presently he’s working with the church

[00:33:33] then what we are anticipating is the completion of god’s working with israel and i say that because god

[00:33:39] promised israel a whole host of covenanted in fact with them a

[00:33:45] stronger word than a promise yeah god covenanted with israel their land i mean there’s been conflict for the last 2000 more

[00:33:52] than the last 2000 years right over the land and he’s covenanted with them

[00:33:58] a new covenant he would write his law on their hearts and you know so many things that god has

[00:34:04] said he would do the establishment of the davidic throne a little known covenant the phineas

[00:34:11] covenant discusses the establishment of the levitical priesthood as an enduring priesthood you know

[00:34:18] of course we know the new covenant we have these covenants that god has made with israel that will endure by the way

[00:34:25] the new covenant jeremiah 31 31-33 says behold i make a new covenant with the house of israel and with the house of

[00:34:33] judah it’s israel and judah it’s not israel and the church that he’s making that covenant with it is

[00:34:39] in fact with the same people they are the people as paul says they are the people to whom belong the covenants it is the

[00:34:46] covenants in the bible are theirs they’re not ours in the sense of gentiles yeah they are

[00:34:52] they are the covenants that god has entered with israel and what we’re anticipating then is either that god will be true to his

[00:34:59] word in the in the way we understand that word is given to israel that he will fulfill that word

[00:35:04] to israel or with a non-dispensational perspective

[00:35:09] we can enter into the idea that that god will fulfill his word to the household of faith

[00:35:16] then which was israel to the household of faith today which is the church

[00:35:21] and of course now we’re we’re dancing very very closely to this idea of replacement theology yeah that would

[00:35:27] even go so far as to suggest that god has replaced israel with the church and so

[00:35:33] god is therefore justified to fulfill all of his promises and those

[00:35:38] covenants which he made with israel with david with his descendants with

[00:35:44] with the the phineas with the levites every single covenant that god has made throughout all of history

[00:35:49] for the land yeah all of the just fulfill them all in christ in a much more esoteric spiritual way

[00:35:55] that doesn’t demand land that doesn’t demand you know blood that doesn’t demand any of those

[00:36:00] issues yeah because we understand we’re a heavenly people we are like they were the natural people we are the heavenly

[00:36:05] people and so if we say so will god fulfill those covenants in the manner in which

[00:36:11] the people to whom he gave them understood them yeah or will he fulfill them in a very different way

[00:36:16] in a which they never could have anticipated and so basically they were entering into a covenant that they didn’t really know what they were

[00:36:22] walking into so so that’s where that’s where i wanted to ask you so why

[00:36:28] are you in the camp where uh that god is going to fulfill that to the

[00:36:33] people of israel versus um you know why don’t you take the other position you personally

[00:36:38] uh why do you hold the view that you do well again uh my my reading of the text if if i

[00:36:44] just accept the language of scripture from the old testament and god’s calling attention to them and the the

[00:36:50] language of the apostles or the language of the prophets the language of as i said scripture i mean from genesis to

[00:36:55] revelation it makes these distinctions i mean to suggest there’s no distinction between

[00:37:00] israel and the church we see that distinction is carried all the way to the new jerusalem in revelation okay at the very end of

[00:37:07] the story we have a new jerusalem and yet that that city has

[00:37:13] gates and pillars and the fact that we have the names of

[00:37:18] the apostles on one and the names of the household of israel and another suggests that a distinction

[00:37:24] remains it’s not just all jumbled together yeah the distinction between israel the the the house of israel the

[00:37:32] tribes of israel and the names of the apostles the fact that that distinction remains

[00:37:37] even in the new jerusalem says it is an eternal distinction with god yeah as eternal a distinction

[00:37:43] as the father the son and the holy spirit does that mean that all three aren’t god no but it means that a distinction

[00:37:48] exists and christians have been a people of distinction i mean that’s that’s sort of baked into

[00:37:55] because we’re a people of the book because we read the book and book and language makes distinctions yeah that it’s sort of baked into our

[00:38:03] reading and knowledge of understanding and how we do theology so how did this originate then this other idea that okay

[00:38:08] hey uh israel is going away it’s now the church where did that come from why did that

[00:38:13] even develop that is that is baked early on in history in the early

[00:38:18] church i mean these are ideas that that the from from the earliest sort of emergence of

[00:38:25] anti-semitism and the idea that the gentiles have replaced israel in the promises of god

[00:38:36] first century okay i mean the conflict look there were issues

[00:38:42] between the jews and the gentiles which are seen as early as in galatia yeah right it’s recorded in

[00:38:48] the bible who’s peter and james sitting with yeah and why these people are not with those people very simply because they’re

[00:38:55] gentiles and we’re jews right and in the book of acts i mean you know look look the gospel’s for all the gentiles

[00:39:01] so that’s the issue of the council what are we going to in acts chapter 15 yeah we have to go and james is going to

[00:39:07] decide look this is yes the gospels for the gentiles so but but they still have to observe some of these things so as not to give

[00:39:13] offense to the jews and eventually it becomes an issue jews sort of

[00:39:18] had this expectation in the church when the church was predominantly jewish that

[00:39:24] they were sort of the first class citizen in the church yeah you know i mean they were all the the the uh i mean they were

[00:39:31] talking about they were talking about getting circumcised again and everything and and they were sort of putting that on the gentiles gentiles were like wait a

[00:39:37] minute wait this doesn’t really add up i don’t think god’s commanding us to do this yeah he’s like no this is how you’d be a good follower of god and yeah in the last

[00:39:44] dispensation it was yeah but in this dispensation it’s not and of course if you feel like you’re in that privileged position as the jews did

[00:39:50] because they were already this was their customs yeah and those customs were given by god yeah they were doing the right thing when they were

[00:39:56] keeping them but now they were trying to impose them as we know paul addresses the judaizers trying to even

[00:40:02] sort of afflict the gentiles with circumcision and those kinds of things and that’s not what god is doing in this

[00:40:08] dispensation yeah you know so it’s understanding that distinction and and because of that

[00:40:14] sort of rough uh uh abrasive relationship between the jews and the gentiles eventually the gentiles were

[00:40:20] like you know that’s that’s not even you know what god’s requiring us to do yeah and before long it became

[00:40:26] resentment toward the jews and anti-semitic and um which the replacement hole yes well you guys

[00:40:34] uh that are listening um my guest today is dr james fazios socalsem.edu he’s the dean of bible and theology if

[00:40:41] you want to get deep into your faith really really dig um into theology and doctrine and these sorts of things

[00:40:47] i really encourage you to check it out you know the bible says watch your life and doctrine closely because if you do you will save both

[00:40:53] yourself and your hearers and it matters doctrine matters we can’t just wave it away and say hey you know all these divisive arguments i

[00:41:00] don’t want to be a part of that these are things that really do matter they have an impact on how we live out our faith and um how we read the word of god so

[00:41:07] check it out socalsem.edu we’ll be right back we have one more segment left we’re going to continue to talk about

[00:41:12] the reformation dispensationalism and ultimately how this impacts us stay with us

[00:41:23] [Music]

[00:41:31] luke gibson of lg equipment supports educate for life kevin conover luke grew up in the construction

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[00:42:11] spiritual life as well as being an incredible teacher while our kids were his students his knowledge and passion have taught us all

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[00:42:45] [Music]

[00:42:53] hey thanks for listening today you’re on educate for life radio with kevin conover i’m your host my website’s educate4life.org please

[00:43:00] check it out there’s all kinds of useful information on there we’ve got past radio shows hundreds of

[00:43:05] them we’ve also got tons of classes 40 online classes you can take covering all kinds of things including creation and

[00:43:11] evolution how the bible was put together the canonicity of the bible why does god allow suffering evil and

[00:43:18] and why does he send people to hell right all these these hard questions that people ask on a regular basis

[00:43:24] it’s meant to help you build a firm foundation for your faith so that you can be a light and a blessing to the people around you

[00:43:30] check it out educate4life.org my guest today is dr james fazio socalsem.edu he is the dean of bible and

[00:43:37] theology there at southern california seminary and we’re talking about some really uh significant subjects um you authored

[00:43:43] uh co-authored uh forge from reformation and uh so

[00:43:48] and then you’ve got this book this fantastic book two commissions which i think is really really cool and you you have a

[00:43:54] doctorate in ministry you have a master’s in theology and now you’re getting a phd in history

[00:44:00] uh over in belfast belfast and so um i’m just curious from that perspective

[00:44:06] um i wanted our listeners to hear from your own mouth how why you’re pursuing this uh

[00:44:11] degree in history and how it relates to you know everything you’re doing currently um yeah so i’m currently uh finishing up

[00:44:18] a phd in history at queen’s university belfast in northern ireland uh it’s uh it’s a secular school it

[00:44:26] they don’t have a a religious uh department and um they have a department of irish studies that’s their history you know

[00:44:32] like we would have americans yeah yeah irish studies and um and i’m doing it on an irish figure who was an

[00:44:38] ecclesiastical churchman and so my um who’s that person and that’s john nelson darby

[00:44:44] john nelson darby is a name that a lot of people associate with dispensationally yeah usually kind of consider this he’s like

[00:44:50] my dad’s here he’s like my dad’s hero you know it’s funny um he ends up being more of a mascot or a figurehead

[00:44:56] yeah um uh very few people really know his theology and um and and to the

[00:45:03] extent they did they’d probably be pretty shocked because you know um you can’t just reverse put

[00:45:09] put our theology on to him you know and and and that just kind of like what i was saying the way we read the bible right you know we

[00:45:15] just can’t do that um he was a very interesting fellow and um

[00:45:20] i’m interested in history and seeing and understanding it in his context the bible or um you know more in the

[00:45:27] sense of a modern church history so what are the what are some of the interesting things you’ve learned about darby that you didn’t know before you started this

[00:45:32] process um well you know darby is uh championed has been championed by basically proponents of dispensation

[00:45:39] largely because it’s repeated from from um sort of summaries and surveys historical surveys that darby’s the guy

[00:45:45] who founded dispensationalism obviously that has been um we’ve addressed that in our book forge from reformation

[00:45:51] it’s been expanded on much more by william watson who wrote dispensationalism before

[00:45:57] darby um we’re actually uh scs press is releasing another book next

[00:46:03] year called discovering dispensationalism tracing the roots of his of

[00:46:09] dispensational thought from the first to the 21st century showing the development of that william watson is

[00:46:15] one of the contributors that’s got to be a serious undertaking well again like forge from reformation we’ve got a lot of

[00:46:21] highly qualified very serious scholars who are working on this contributing different chapters in different periods from

[00:46:26] uh you know early church history to medieval times to all the way through to um you know more recent developments

[00:46:33] obviously that you’ve got a lot from about the the 19th century to the 21st century a lot of developments in

[00:46:38] dispensationalism but the point is it’s it didn’t just land on the map in the early 1800s and

[00:46:44] that’s the purpose of doing this research on on darby understanding that even in fact in in his early years

[00:46:50] he’s been credited as the person who sort of dreamt up the pre-trib rapture and then others have sort of

[00:46:56] disparagingly said well he copied it from another you know author and things like that a woman at the time and um you know a lot of ad

[00:47:02] hominem attacks usually on that sort of thing but the issue is um darby was in fact quite reluctant to

[00:47:07] the pre-trib rapture a lot of people don’t know that yet because that hasn’t been publicized in fact it’s

[00:47:13] it’s very private information that has only in the last couple of years been revealed as

[00:47:19] notebooks from the very first powerskort conference which was the conference

[00:47:24] that kicked off prophecy conferences outside of albury aubry conferences were in scotland well

[00:47:30] in ireland dublin area outside of dublin and enniscurry was the uh lady powerscourt who was known for

[00:47:37] her palatial estate and she opened the estate to um the clergyman at the time in ireland

[00:47:43] and they started having these prophecy conferences starting in 1831. wow well that’s where the pre-trib

[00:47:50] rapture is usually pointed to as you know darby initiated it in fact we know now um that’s not the

[00:47:56] case at all darby was reluctant to the pre-trib rapture when it first came out and he was he was the one actually arguing against it so

[00:48:03] um did he end up come he absolutely became convinced of it okay yeah yeah and and so so in in the

[00:48:09] next couple of years he ended up being the loudest advocate which is why he’s now sort of credited as oh he’s the

[00:48:15] one who came up with it i got you okay so yeah and there is kind of a heated debate right now in the church

[00:48:20] um i don’t know why it’s risen to the surface recently maybe maybe because people are feeling like you know the end is near

[00:48:27] but um you know between a millennial pre-millennial uh you know post uh or uh

[00:48:32] mid-trib and all these different things what um you know where do you

[00:48:39] how does this uh divvy up meaning you know what causes the divisions between the people because if you have a bunch

[00:48:45] of well-meaning christians come together and they all say we all believe in the bible um what is different about their

[00:48:50] approach to the bible that’s causing these uh different views or what what is it that’s doing that yeah

[00:48:56] again um it’s it’s our expectations of what christ is doing next on this earth

[00:49:01] according to a pre-tribulational dispensational perspective and reading of scripture what we’re understanding

[00:49:07] is that all of these things must come to pass i mean it’s not at all disheartening or discouraging we’ve been anticipating it all along you

[00:49:13] know um so the issue is that um and by the way

[00:49:18] that also doesn’t mean i mean just about every generation for the last 2000 years has anticipated christ will return in their lifetime

[00:49:24] yeah the apostles believed it yeah so it’s certainly not a wrong thing to believe you know um we’re called upon to believe

[00:49:30] that now we may be wrong because it may not occur in our lifetime nevertheless we are to live as though it may that’s the whole point

[00:49:36] of the imminence of christ’s return we are to live as though i mean look you leave the house and you

[00:49:41] tell the kids you know clean up i could be home at any moment yeah what you want is for that house to be clean and for them to be peeking out

[00:49:47] the window thinking he could be coming home i just taught i just told my daughter that yesterday i mean that’s that’s what you want

[00:49:53] that’s that’s that’s living a life of obedience to say oh dad could be home any moment we need to keep this place clean right yeah not just this oh you know our

[00:50:00] dad delays is coming let’s just eat and be married i mean that’s that’s the whole point of those parables you know

[00:50:05] to understand that that’s what he wants he wants us to live as though he can return at any moment that’s the doctrine of of imminence

[00:50:12] and the issue is that yeah we you know there are times it’s always been times

[00:50:17] that in fact in the 1830s you talk about ireland that was one of the big pressures that was on them and they were feeling like conflict

[00:50:23] between protestants and catholics and of course many were looking at the pope as as as the antichrist you know so

[00:50:28] there’s always been these different things whether it’s looking at the president as the antichrist or whatever it is the antichrist and you know the middle east figure military

[00:50:35] figure whoever it is you know somebody’s always got this but yeah and and how we read the headlines

[00:50:43] shouldn’t impact how we read the bible that is to say you know reading the newspaper shouldn’t change how we interpret scripture but

[00:50:49] understanding the the the story of scripture should really give us

[00:50:55] us a peace and a hope so that we’re not going to be shaken when we read the headlines yeah

[00:51:02] it’s not a surprise to us yeah that’s the issue and there’s a lot of headlines right now too um you know with everybody

[00:51:08] a lot of people are very concerned and with covet and everything it’s kind of crazy it’s kind of like you’re in some you know left behind book

[00:51:14] or something but uh so what is god doing you know when we when you talk about dispensations we

[00:51:21] talked about um you you know we’re living in the church age and a lot of people think the church age is coming to a close

[00:51:26] um what’s next and um you talked about i thought this was very interesting you talked about the progressive essentially

[00:51:33] education of humanity that god is training people and as they

[00:51:38] reflect on history they they can grow through that uh and mature uh you know is that progressive growth

[00:51:45] going to continue is there going to come a time in your mind in the scriptures when that growth will be complete

[00:51:51] or is that something that’s going to keep going on and on and on well yeah so we i mean we know how the story plays out yeah so when we read revelation we

[00:51:57] can see very clearly where we’re headed um christ will return now again a pre-tribulation pre-millennial

[00:52:04] dispensational perspective on that is that christ will come and take his church away and that’s the message of paul to

[00:52:10] the thessalonians is that he will come and take us away in the twinkling of an eye we will be taken to be with him we

[00:52:16] will when christ will meet his saints in the air first thessalonians 4 17 that’s what we’re awaiting right

[00:52:21] there the meeting of christ in the air um and that is for those who look for him you know and so in other words those

[00:52:27] who await his appearing that we will we will meet him in the air that’s the idea of the rapture right there

[00:52:32] and that the dead in christ will not uh you know enough in other words we both standing

[00:52:38] living and those who have uh died will all go to be with christ and then of course we anticipate the

[00:52:44] seven year tribulation as we read it in and and revelation makes it very clear as it talks about the great

[00:52:50] tribulation it doesn’t say seven years it says but it says in in multiple ways the number of days the

[00:52:58] number of months and the times time and half a time that it is three and a half years of great tribulation there’s no doubt

[00:53:04] about that there’s no ambiguity that that second half of the tribulation which is talked about in daniel in this

[00:53:10] in the seventh week the seven years yeah the the that 70th week uh that period of seven years that

[00:53:17] we are waiting for in the tribulation is accented it is really punctuated by the three and

[00:53:23] a half year time of great woes and that’s that message of those earlier chapters in revelation

[00:53:29] um and is that is that its own dispensation is that considered no no no so that’s that that’s just a

[00:53:35] seven year period i mean it’s it’s a time unlike any which anybody had ever lived scripture makes it very clear

[00:53:41] about that but the idea of a seven-year dispensation no what you have often between the

[00:53:47] dispensations is a period of transition and we had it in the flood you know for a whole year the waters

[00:53:54] were on the earth it didn’t immediately pass from one dispensation to the next uh we talked about christ’s life his

[00:54:00] ministry his death and 50 days waiting until his ascension pentecost being the beginning of

[00:54:06] the church i mean so so the idea of times of transition is pretty natural okay and um and so we are anticipating

[00:54:14] the next and final dispensation would be the what revelation 20 talks about the

[00:54:19] thousand-year kingdom of christ on earth yeah and that’s what we’re awaiting so

[00:54:25] okay we’re almost out of time here but i have a question that’s kind of uh a little kind of a funny question and uh it’s just an interesting thing i

[00:54:32] wanted to ask you which is you know when um will there be during the millennial period

[00:54:38] what is your view on who is going to be on earth and who’s going to be in the new jerusalem will there be believers and non-believers uh at the

[00:54:44] same time as in your opinion on earth yes and in heaven so yeah there will be believers and

[00:54:50] non-believers on earth the issue is that the church will have

[00:54:55] been raptured and we will we will be in our new glorified bodies right so we will be as christ is that

[00:55:01] it’s so but the new the new earth is not here yet is that correct no no that’s not the new heavens and new earth okay once this one is

[00:55:08] completely destroyed okay so that so that’s the difference between the subject of revelation 20 and then

[00:55:14] the subject of revelation when we get to 21 and 22. so we are looking at a

[00:55:20] a revived earth which would uh probably a better term would be a restored earth that is when god brings

[00:55:27] it back to its initial state its paradisical state i mean paradise it

[00:55:32] was there was nothing but peace on earth right we know that yeah the longing of every man’s heart out there right now in

[00:55:37] black lives matters and everybody who’s out there just shouting for you know that they want justice yeah and

[00:55:43] it’s like one thing that man is is determined about and we’re just a little divided as to how it’s going to come about yeah but we

[00:55:49] all want peace on earth we want justice we want everything that accompanies when christ is seated on his throne okay

[00:55:56] the issue is that christ is not presently seated on david’s throne on earth okay ephesians makes it very

[00:56:04] clear christ is seated at the right hand of the father okay but as he was told sit at my right

[00:56:09] hand until your enemies are made your footstool i mean what we have right now is that we have a condition which the

[00:56:16] apostles describe paul uses this language very clearly when he says this present evil age and he calls

[00:56:21] satan the god of this age now when did he call this age evil it was after christ was

[00:56:26] ascended and went to be with the father so the church age absolutely what we call the church age and

[00:56:32] and and again it’s just a matter of how we’re how we’re how do you want to title it we’re focusing on but what we’re understanding is that

[00:56:38] when paul repeatedly in scripture called satan the prince of the powers of the air the god of this age you know

[00:56:44] he’s speaking at a time that at the very same time when christ is seated at the right hand of the father

[00:56:50] no debate about that right christ wasn’t on the earth at that time he was ascended into heaven seated with

[00:56:56] the father and paul calls it scripture calls it god calls it an evil age that’s the age we’re living

[00:57:03] in but what we are awaiting is the messianic age when christ will

[00:57:08] come and touch down on earth and establish justice on earth and that’s why it’s the longing of our hearts i mean

[00:57:13] you know if we weren’t longing for it i mean this the stones would cry out waiting for this this this is what earth

[00:57:20] was created for it’s what we were created for everybody wants everything to be fair let’s make it all fair right right well

[00:57:26] he will he will bring justice and he will you know yeah the question is will we like it when we get it we know the end of that

[00:57:31] story too because at the end of the millennium you know the nations will rage yeah because they don’t want justice in the end in fact what they want is

[00:57:37] a different kind of justice their own unique brand of justice and so when god actually brings justice in the form of christ seated on the throne and and

[00:57:44] you know all of us said yes the lion may lay down with the lamb and we may have peace on earth but believe me there will

[00:57:49] be an awful lot of resentment toward god because even you know christ you know as unbelievers say today well if if jesus came and sat down and

[00:57:56] it was right there in front of me then i’d believe well you know what we actually know the end of that yeah we know you want that’s right

[00:58:01] oh my goodness that’s awesome well uh for those of you listening my guest today is dr james fazio socalsem.edu

[00:58:08] please please check it out uh if you’re interested in accelerating your education of the bible and the word

[00:58:14] of god it’s a great opportunity and uh dr fazio i just want to thank you a lot for being

[00:58:19] on that program today it’s been a big blessing so um you can check out his books too we’ve got the

[00:58:25] two commissions very very interesting book talking about the life of christ and the message that christ gave as well

[00:58:32] as the message that he told the apostles to give and then we’ve also got four forged from reformation which is a very very

[00:58:38] detailed detailed text with tons of different authors on um both the reformation and

[00:58:45] dispensationalism if you want to dig deep there too fantastic opportunity uh looking forward to being with you

[00:58:51] next week i hope you have a great weekend and uh stay close to jesus and god bless you

[00:58:56] take care we’ll see you next time bye-bye did you miss part of today’s program don’t worry we’re committed to helping

[00:59:02] you get the info you need okay that was dumb but for real visit educate4life.com

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