Are Christians Being Persecuted in America? – Blaine Adamson, Jim Campbell, and David Jones

[00:00:00] and now here’s your host Kevin con bring your ti shame welcome to educate for life I’m

[00:00:08] your host Kevin Conover my website is educate forlife.org and if you’ve been

[00:00:13] paying attention to the news you know there’s a lot of um kind of a cultural I guess War you could say that’s going on

[00:00:19] in our country right now there’s all kinds of U arguments or or cases legal

[00:00:25] uh situations where people are arguing about whether or not um religious Freedom trumps uh a person’s uh how they

[00:00:32] identify sexually or or their sexuality versus uh do uh or does sexuality Trump

[00:00:39] religious freedom and one of the cases that was decided just recently on May 12th 2017 a Kentucky court affirmed a

[00:00:47] lower Court ruling that recognized the freedom of Blaine Adamson to decide for himself the ideas and messages he wants

[00:00:53] to promote Blaine is the managing owner of a promotional printing company Hands-On Originals in Lexington Kentucky

[00:01:00] and he’s now spent more than five years tied up in legal proceedings because he declined to print shirts promoting the

[00:01:05] Lexington pride festival to discuss this with me today are Blaine Adamson and

[00:01:11] also his attorney Jim Campbell who is with uh the alliance defending Freedom uh guys thank you so much for being on

[00:01:17] the show today hey thanks for having us fantastic well uh Blaine I wanted to kind of start

[00:01:23] off go all the way back about five years ago and ask how did this all get started

[00:01:29] and uh were you surprised by what was what was taking

[00:01:34] place well definitely surprised but uh started with the phone call had the local um gay pride festival

[00:01:43] called us asked about printing some shirts and I just asked them what they wanted printed on the shirts and once

[00:01:49] they kind of went over the details I realized it was just something that my conscience uh couldn’t print so I told

[00:01:57] him of Another Printer locally down the road who would honor the price there’s

[00:02:02] actually Another Printer that that handles shirts where we can’t print a message that we’re asked to print they’re always willing to do it so we

[00:02:09] referred them to them um individual uh hung up and next thing you know we’re in

[00:02:17] a court battle a media uh Blitz against us the mayor comes out against us and

[00:02:22] and you know we’ve been dealing with this for five years now can I ask you what it was they wanted you to print on the shirts

[00:02:29] absolutely um basically it was a I can’t remember if it was a number five or six

[00:02:35] it was a rainbow and it said lexingon pride and basically that’s an advocacy

[00:02:40] for uh Pride you know the traditional Pride events that you see the pray sure

[00:02:46] sure now you’re and of course you’re a Bible believing Christian and you for you this would this would violate your

[00:02:51] conscience to uh support this because uh of the Bible’s stance on uh the issue of

[00:02:56] homosexuality well right right because not belief just as the Bible clearly says is that sexuality is just between a

[00:03:03] married man and a woman and anything outside of that is just something I can’t promote okay and some people would

[00:03:10] say hey why didn’t you uh you know why didn’t you just print it you’re not you’re just running a business you’re not uh you know this doesn’t mean that

[00:03:18] you support it uh how would you respond to somebody who said something like that well I’m accountable to God for the

[00:03:25] things that I pr meaning I want him to be pleased at the end of the day with the ideas that I promote and so if

[00:03:32] there’s something I don’t care what it is that falls outside the the the lines

[00:03:37] of what I believe the scriptures clearly teach that’s not something I can promote in the example I’ve kind of given is I

[00:03:44] Think Jesus would work with anybody yeah you know Jesus was a carpenter but would he actually write on the let’s say he

[00:03:51] was building a table would he write something that contradicted his father’s very words I would say he wouldn’t and

[00:03:58] so as a you know a follower of Christ we’re called to love all people but there’s got to be truth in that also

[00:04:04] absolutely again when against my conscience went against what I believe the scripture clearly teaches and so

[00:04:11] it’s just something I can’t I I don’t think God would be pleased with me promoting yeah now this is happened over

[00:04:16] five years a five-year period so what’s transpired I mean we don’t have a lot of time but what’s transpired over those

[00:04:22] five years and um what are some of the things that have come out for you or Lessons Learned or uh what’s the what’s

[00:04:29] the encourage enouragement you can give other Christians who are considering whether to whether to stand up and you

[00:04:35] know uh do what’s right or to kind of take the easy path what’s what’s your thoughts on

[00:04:40] that well I’d say the big thing I’ve got three kids and something that’s very

[00:04:45] encouraging to me as a father and and my wife we we see that our kids know there’s a cost and Jesus kind of said

[00:04:52] that he’s you know that if we choose to follow him we’re going to have to die to self yeah and there will be a cost and

[00:04:58] so my kids have seen hey I’ve got a really way do I believe this do I believe the scriptures um and I think

[00:05:06] it’s a good thing that that my children have wrestled with to see that you know he’s faithful he’s merciful um in all

[00:05:13] things but yet there’s a cost in following him so that’s that’s really been an encourage encouragement to me

[00:05:18] personally yeah um so I mean that’s the first thing that that I would I would

[00:05:23] throw out there and you know if you look throughout the scriptures there’s always

[00:05:28] going to be times I don’t the other Christians are talking about who are going to be facing this kind of decision

[00:05:34] yeah where we decide are we going to follow the world and kind of mold God to look like the world or are we going to

[00:05:41] follow what the scripture says and accept God for who he is and follow him and so um you know as Believers we have

[00:05:48] to make that decision now um when you got when you got started on this and you called up

[00:05:55] did you immediately call The Alliance defending Freedom no it’s that that was kind of an

[00:06:00] interesting story because a buddy of mine his dad called us and because we had no attorneys we had nothing we

[00:06:06] didn’t know what we were doing and uh he said you know you may want to call this this ADF company uh this group that kind

[00:06:14] of helps out and I thought yeah well maybe I should look it up well then uh someone had walked in uh just just a

[00:06:21] little bit later and they said they were with Alliance defending Freedom so I was

[00:06:26] like tell me about so I walked down there and it was because I mean I literally was at the point with the

[00:06:32] media calling um and just all the stuff that we were dealing with I didn’t know

[00:06:37] to turn right or left and they kind of said look we’ll take over from here you know you run your business do what

[00:06:43] you’re supposed to do and just making t-shirts and we’ll we’ll take care of the media and the legal side of this and

[00:06:49] it was great I mean I I truly believe and I know I don’t want to sound be like Christian cheesy but I mean I really

[00:06:55] feel like God had kind of laid that out at that moment to where I could let it go and just go back to doing what what I

[00:07:02] enjoy doing and um so I’m very thankful for those guys that’s fantastic and uh

[00:07:08] through this process through this five-year process were you confident that you were going to come out ahead uh that you were going to win I mean were

[00:07:14] you expecting uh the decision to take place on May 12th that did or or was that uh kind of back and forth what was

[00:07:20] going on there no I mean especially at the very beginning I figured we I mean I

[00:07:25] to be honest I just thought we would probably lose the case I mean this is right at the beginning yeah um not

[00:07:30] really knowing the the legal ramifications of everything um I just knew it was something that that I had to

[00:07:36] do regardless um but in terms of the the ruling that just came out now of course

[00:07:42] I feel like I’m a professional lawyer now after five years but the the the so

[00:07:48] I did at this point I felt like understanding the law a little better um

[00:07:53] that that you know we as Americans should have the freedom of conscience to be able to you know decline messages is

[00:08:00] no one should be forced to print a message they don’t want to print I don’t care who you are yeah as Americans so I

[00:08:05] kind of understand a little better and was hoping that it would it would go this way um hope that answer your

[00:08:11] question yeah that does answer my question um and it and I want to uh talk to uh Jim uh when we come back Jim

[00:08:18] Campbell is attorney for ADF who’s um supported Blaine uh through this uh as

[00:08:25] far as I understand at pro bono um you know there’s a lot of cases around the country that have taken place over the

[00:08:30] past years uh and and as this has become more and more heated we have Kelvin Cochran who was uh fired as a fire chief

[00:08:39] because of what he wrote in a devotional um that sexuality sex was only between a man and a woman um we also have uh the

[00:08:47] couple up in Oregon Aaron and Melissa Klein who had a bakery who uh were fined

[00:08:53] $135,000 um because they wouldn’t bake a cake for a homosexual uh wedding and

[00:09:00] so um we’re going to be coming right back but uh Jim my question for you is

[00:09:06] is what makes this case different and is this a precedent setting case um or what

[00:09:12] does this mean for the future of of these sorts of situations uh is does that make sense what I’m asking Jim it

[00:09:18] does I I think um you know what makes this case different is that the court got it right um okay yeah that’s

[00:09:27] basically what makes it different at the end of the day no matter whether you’re a promotional printer like Blaine or you’re a cake

[00:09:34] artist uh like the folks you mentioned in Oregon or any of these other um creative professionals that are in these

[00:09:41] situations you should have the right to operate your business and to live your life consistent with with your faith and

[00:09:47] to decline to help promote or Advance messages um that you disagree with or

[00:09:53] participa in events like a same-sex marriage that that you disagree with abely um so yeah that the bottom at the

[00:10:00] end of the day that’s really what separates these cases is that simply in this case the court got it right and in

[00:10:05] those cases so far the courts have uh have yet to answer the question the way

[00:10:10] they should okay my guests today are bla Blaine Adamson and Jim Campbell I also have in studio David Jones who’s facing

[00:10:17] a who faced a similar situation here in San Diego County we’re going to continue this discussion right when we get back

[00:10:23] so stay with us we’ll be right back hi this is Jason Hall president of

[00:10:29] Team Hans a branch of synergy1 lending I just want to take this opportunity to thank Kevin Conover for the profound

[00:10:36] impact he’s had on mine and my wife’s spiritual life as well as being an incredible teacher while our kids were

[00:10:41] his students his knowledge and passion have taught us all how important it is to be Defenders of our faith it’s our

[00:10:47] honor and privilege to support Kevin and his show it is our sincere hope and prayer that you will continue to learn

[00:10:52] to be Defenders of your faith through Kevin’s radio show and through his educate for Life teachings thank you

[00:10:58] Kevin from the Hall family and team Home Loans what do leading local restaurants

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[00:12:37] [Applause] will thanks for listening today this is

[00:12:43] educate for life I’m your host Kevin Conover my website’s educate forlife.org you can pick up a recording of this show

[00:12:49] and previous shows on our YouTube channel also on our podcast you can check those all out uh all kinds of

[00:12:55] interesting shows recently interviewed Dr James tour one of the top 50 scientists in the world on the evolution

[00:13:01] creation debate and uh he says there is absolutely no evidence for evolution scientifically so check that out when

[00:13:08] you get a chance my guests today are Blaine Adamson and Jim Campbell Jim is an attorney for ADF uh if you are having

[00:13:15] trouble as a Christian you feel like um you’re facing discrimination or persecution or whatever that might be if

[00:13:20] you’re having trouble running your business or whatever it might be ADF legal.org ADF legal.org they’re an incredible

[00:13:28] organization ation that will actually um reach out and defend you in many cases for free uh Jim how does ADF defend

[00:13:36] people for free that seems like a you’ve you’ve been doing this for five years and uh how does that work

[00:13:42] out well we we have a lot of people throughout the country that believe in what we do and so we’re we’re funded by

[00:13:50] thousands of uh of donors throughout America and thankfully it enables us to

[00:13:56] identify people who are in need of legal help people whose rights and and religious freedom are being violated and

[00:14:03] it allows us to step in and help them free of charge that’s fantastic and how many attorneys are a part of

[00:14:10] ADF well um on staff attorneys we have probably 50 to 60 of us um and then in

[00:14:19] we have an um one of the things that we focus on is is in our name and that is Alliance we focus on building an

[00:14:25] alliance and so we have what we called Ali attorne throughout the the country

[00:14:30] and we have over 3,000 of them and so on staff you know we have about 50 or so

[00:14:36] but throughout the country we partner with over 3,000 attorneys that help us do the work that we do that’s so great

[00:14:43] um I just had Dean BRS who actually is an ADF attorney here in San Diego um in the studio last week so uh please reach

[00:14:51] out to them if that’s something you need to do so Jim um you know you said the

[00:14:56] difference in this case is that the the courts got it right what’s the argument from the other side I I mean you know I

[00:15:02] can hear people saying well yeah but can you really discriminate against somebody if if somebody from another race comes

[00:15:07] into uh the store and uh they they want to promote something that um violates a

[00:15:14] person’s conscience and uh you know I I’m just thinking off the top of my head

[00:15:19] here maybe at an Italian Festival and they they don’t like Italian festivals uh

[00:15:25] what is that legal for somebody to do something like that how does that work so what’s important to understand is

[00:15:32] that in all of these cases in Blain’s case in the the cake artist case and all

[00:15:37] the other ones that are going on these business owners don’t discriminate against classes of people uh Blaine will

[00:15:43] happily serve folks who identify as gay and lesbian he has served those people

[00:15:49] um and he he will gladly serve uh people that identify that way in the future that’s not the issue for him the

[00:15:54] question is what message are you asking him to promote if you’re asking him to promote something that conflicts with

[00:15:59] his conscience whether you identify as heterosexual or whether you identify as

[00:16:05] homosexual it’s something that he simply can’t do and so these cases don’t involve uh any form of discrimination

[00:16:12] what they involve are people just trying to live consistent with their faith and the other thing that’s important to keep

[00:16:17] in mind is that this same Freedom that protects people like Blain and Cake artists and Florist throughout the

[00:16:23] country is a protection that applies to anyone no American should be forced to

[00:16:29] promote ideas that they disagree with and so for example if you were to turn the tables and you had a a lesbian uh

[00:16:37] promotional printer who was asked to print messages maybe shirts that said

[00:16:42] you know same-sex marriage is not okay they should have every right to decline

[00:16:48] to print that message because that’s not something that they want to support and that’s not something that they want to lend their creative talents to um and so

[00:16:54] this protection is something that protects all Americans and it’s something that we should be able to Rally around it’s not something that’s

[00:17:01] only for people on one side of the political Spectrum so a photographer uh

[00:17:06] who deines to you know do the photography for a same-sex wedding ceremony um are they also because

[00:17:15] where’s the does would somebody say that’s a message they’re they’re sending or would they say hey there’s no message

[00:17:20] you’re sending you’re just serving them well that’s certainly the argument that that people on the other side want

[00:17:27] to make but when you understand in the example that you raised what photography

[00:17:32] is particularly wedding photography you’re telling the story of a wedding through images and it’s very well

[00:17:39] established in the law that that photographs are a form of First Amendment protected expression uh you

[00:17:45] know the the common saying a picture says a thousand words and so um so all

[00:17:51] that to say there there really is a request in that situation to promote an

[00:17:57] idea to tell a story one about marriage that conflicts with with Conservative Christian beliefs and so even in those

[00:18:04] circumstances the argument is still the same I see now is this case uh uh

[00:18:09] important as far as is it a precedent setting case as far as um compared to a

[00:18:15] lot of the other cases that have not turned out or the court has got it wrong uh like you’re

[00:18:20] saying so um in this case it’s a court of appeals a state court of appeals that

[00:18:26] um ruled on this question so yes it does provide some guidance um for other courts to look to um now some of the

[00:18:33] other uh cases that have been uh decided so far have been State Supreme Courts

[00:18:38] and so those are other cases that that some courts can look to so yeah I I do think you know right now we have cases

[00:18:45] on both sides of this question Blain’s case the court got it right the court upheld the freedom of everyone to uh

[00:18:52] decline to promote ideas that they disagree with and so these cases are all working their way up to one final Destin

[00:18:59] which is the US Supreme Court I think over the course of the next 5 years it’s likely that the Supreme Court will take

[00:19:05] one of these cases and we’ll weigh in and we’ll provide Clarity for the rest of the courts but in the meantime I

[00:19:11] think we’re going to continue to see the lower courts disagree on this question until ultimately the Supreme Court

[00:19:17] resolves it so if somebody’s concerned about these issues how can they make a difference how can they get involved and

[00:19:22] um making sure this goes the right way well you mentioned earlier our website which is ADF F legal.org that’s uh a is

[00:19:31] in apple D is in Dan and F is in Freedom um legal.org so they can get tons of

[00:19:39] information about uh the cases that we have the clients that we represent the issues that we’re engaged in and they

[00:19:46] can also if they’re so inclined can support us financially which again that’s how we’re able to represent

[00:19:52] people like blame free of charge um and if nothing else they can learn about what we’re doing see what gods up to

[00:19:59] through the ministry of Alliance defending freedom and pray for our cases and our clients yeah spread the word um

[00:20:05] you know one of the issues that’s kind of a hot button issue my I have a a friend uh local here in San Diego who’s

[00:20:10] in in studio here with we’re going to continue the show after you guys are off the air but um uh this issue is popping

[00:20:16] up all over the country too is that um people are saying I identify as the opposite sex that I am right or or a

[00:20:23] different gender or uh what’s happening in New York where you can an employer can be find if they don’t call somebody

[00:20:30] by the gender of their choice um does this have anything to do with religious freedom does this issue is this a

[00:20:36] religious freedom issue um or is this another issue altogether I think there are a lot of

[00:20:44] ramifications for that issue in religious freedom I I’ll a few immediately come to mind one is um for a

[00:20:52] doctor uh some healthc Care Professionals might be in a position where they’re asked to perform

[00:20:59] for example a hysterectomy on a woman who wants to engage in so-called sex

[00:21:05] reassignment surgery to become a man a person of Faith could say I can’t in good conscience do that um that’s just

[00:21:11] not something that’s consistent with my faith with what I believe God teaches about uh maleness and femaleness and so

[00:21:17] that’s not something I can do so that that right there is a religious freedom question also you mentioned the use of

[00:21:23] of pronouns and and and um you know gender specific names and ter ter uh

[00:21:29] that’s an issue that can be a religious freedom issue too because someone again could say listen I can’t deny the truth

[00:21:37] about what I believe the Bible teaches about maleness and femaleness I can’t say something that denounces that truth

[00:21:44] or denies that truth and so again there are religious freedom Ram ramifications there too very interesting okay and I I

[00:21:51] imagine ADF is going to be uh involved in those cases as they come to the Forefront and uh they become more

[00:21:56] prevalent around the country um I just want to thank you Blaine so much for your stand for the example you set um

[00:22:02] that’s a lot of perseverance to go through that with your family when you got three kids and everything thank you for doing

[00:22:08] that hey well I appreciate it and uh Jim thank you for what you’re doing also I

[00:22:13] know you guys uh put in a lot of hours a lot of work a lot of volunteer time that’s a serious Ministry so I just want

[00:22:19] to thank you guys both for being on the air um you are truly Heroes and I’m sure God is going to um bless you uh both

[00:22:28] here and uh and in the next uh life right so uh thank you so much guys um

[00:22:33] when we come back we are going to be talking with David Jones who is a teacher here in San Diego County who was

[00:22:39] recently let go because he would not call a girl a boy even though she wanted

[00:22:44] to be called a boy and uh he was kind of in a similar position to Blaine but um slightly different stay with us we’re

[00:22:50] going to be right back I bring my need I will bring my

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[00:23:51] register educate forlife.com hi this is Jason Hall president of Team

[00:23:57] Home Loans a branch of energy One Lending I just want to take this opportunity to thank Kevin Conover for

[00:24:02] the profound impact he’s had on mine and my wife’s spiritual life as well as being an incredible teacher while our

[00:24:08] kids were his students his knowledge and passion have taught us all how important it is to be Defenders of our faith it’s

[00:24:14] our honor and privilege to support Kevin and his show it is our sincere hope and prayer that you will continue to learn

[00:24:19] to be Defenders of your faith through Kevin’s radio show and through his educate for Life teachings thank you

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[00:25:05] I hear you call thanks for tuning in to educate for life I’m your host Kevin Conover my website’s educate forlife.org

[00:25:11] you can pick up a recording of this show or any past shows if you missed the first two segments of our show we had Blaine Adamson and also uh Jim Campbell

[00:25:20] of the alliance defending freedom on the show we were talking about how uh Blaine just recently won his case uh after five

[00:25:27] years um that he did not want to print a message on the shirts that he prints he was a printer and he didn’t want to

[00:25:34] print a message that celebrated um a gay pride event in his uh town in Kentucky

[00:25:40] and not everybody wins those cases but this is becoming more and more of an issue um over time and we want to

[00:25:46] approach this biblically um we want to we want to look at what the word of God says and then respond appropriately we

[00:25:51] don’t want to be unloving so it’s not as if uh Blaine didn’t serve homosexuals people he disagreed with Christ was very

[00:25:58] clear that he loved Sinners right he said I came to save the Lost not not people that were already um good to go

[00:26:06] and Christ made it very clear uh um he the Bible says he spent time with prostitutes he spent time with tax

[00:26:13] collectors where which were equivalent to thieves um in that day and age and so

[00:26:20] um it’s not that Adam bla Adamson um didn’t love people or didn’t serve homosexuals he did but when it came to

[00:26:26] endorsing a message that essentially said that this issue homosexuality is okay he didn’t want to he didn’t want to

[00:26:33] support that and um there’s a fine line there but as Christians we need to really think clearly about these issues

[00:26:40] because we don’t want to endorse something that Christ says is wrong uh but at the same time we don’t want to be

[00:26:46] unloving because Christ said the most important thing we can do is love people so this is a difficult issue and I have

[00:26:51] in studio with me a really good friend of mine I’ve known him for quite a while now David Jones and uh he recently was

[00:26:59] um essentially uh faced a certain amount of persecution persecution does have a technical de definition persecution is

[00:27:05] anytime a person’s life is threatened they’re injured or their ability to make a living is hindered because of what

[00:27:13] they believe and uh persecutions happening all around the world um even here in America today and David uh

[00:27:19] thanks so much for being on the show today absolutely so why don’t you take us back to the beginning of what what

[00:27:25] happened uh and just tell us the story so our listeners can get a feel for where you’re where this is local here in San Diego County mhm absolutely so

[00:27:32] anyway um about a year and a half ago I was a teacher in um the uh Sweetwater

[00:27:39] Union High School District here in San Diego um I was a photography teacher and

[00:27:44] uh I had a um I got this out of high school right this out of high school yeah and um I had a I got an email one

[00:27:51] day from a counselor saying that I had a student that was choosing to identify as

[00:27:57] the opposite gend her she was I knew her as a girl and she was um choosing to

[00:28:03] identify as a boy and I was um actually pretty surprised and uh had no idea

[00:28:10] actually would never have guessed um not that that’s relevant but I uh yeah I I

[00:28:16] kind of started to struggle with it I I got the email after school hours and had you know thought about it prayed about

[00:28:22] it was thinking to myself what what am I going to do here um actually I thought

[00:28:27] and prayed about it a lot that night and uh next day and what were you wrestling over what was the what was I didn’t know

[00:28:33] what to do I honestly I did not know what to do I had I knew this was an issue that I felt like could pop up at

[00:28:40] some point in time during my career as a teacher but I just I didn’t know what to do I didn’t know what the right thing to do would Jesus call her a boy I asked

[00:28:49] myself you know and I got to be honest with you I was a little bit stumped at

[00:28:54] first and um it was unclear to me I’m almost ashamed to say that now but at

[00:29:00] the time I was like what would Jesus do here there’s not a verse on that yeah

[00:29:05] and um I do believe scripture provides us with plenty of information that I’ve

[00:29:10] since uh delved into but I was truly unclear what what would Jesus do yeah

[00:29:18] and uh and why what was it that makes you or at the time what was it that you were thinking was maybe Jesus would um

[00:29:26] just call her a boy use uh male pronouns what was going through your mind I just

[00:29:32] you know we’re taught and and almost I hate to use the word fed but we are fed so much this this uh Persona of Jesus

[00:29:41] that he’s just this happy guy all the time and that he’s super nice all the

[00:29:46] time and that nobody would ever have you know any sort of problem with Jesus if

[00:29:51] you ever met him you know that’s kind of and that’s so not biblical cuz he he

[00:29:57] faced all sorts of personnel trouble right but um that’s kind of what we’re led to

[00:30:04] believe like he would just get along with everybody and if you saw him walking down the street you’d just immediately think he was the and

[00:30:10] everybody would you know everybody walking down the street would be like that’s Jesus I can tell cuz I like him that’s funny so um yeah that’s what

[00:30:21] I was wrestling with is what do I what would he do and and so and if you were

[00:30:26] not not to call her a he then you would be misrepresenting Christ because everybody loves Christ and he does what

[00:30:33] everybody wants exactly that’s that’s I guess that’s what I was thinking yeah so

[00:30:40] I think a lot of people struggle with that too absolutely yeah I think uh this is a constant issue in our culture is

[00:30:47] you know um am I loving people enough or am I not loving people enough you know

[00:30:55] and and it’s not just the issue of homosexuality your gender identity it’s things like hey a good friend of mine is

[00:31:02] calling themselves a Christian but they’re drinking uh you know on Saturday nights they’re going out to parties and

[00:31:07] getting drunk they call themselves a Christian so what do I do now right yeah or they’re married but they’re not with

[00:31:14] their spouse yeah how do you love them and still be a Christian at the same

[00:31:20] time yeah so that’s a real issue that everybody struggles with it is it’s a toughy yeah so

[00:31:29] um we were uh I got this email and I was thinking to myself you know what am I

[00:31:35] going to do I prayed thought about it prayed about it and I I in the email it said that this student had decided not

[00:31:42] to change their name and I thought to myself okay here’s what I’m going to do now was this a name like Pat or

[00:31:48] something that was like uh you could go either way male or female um no they had

[00:31:54] it was a female name but they had decided not to change their name they were only asking to be referred to by

[00:32:01] the other pronoun so I the name was going to say so he instead of she but it was still a female name it was still a

[00:32:08] female name but it they said at this time um she had not she had decided not

[00:32:13] to uh change her name so I thought okay here’s what I’m going to do I’m just

[00:32:19] going to use only her name I’m going to dodge it I’m just going to use only her name yeah um and

[00:32:27] that’s how that’s how I’ll get around this now at that time were you thinking if I don’t do this I could be fired you

[00:32:35] know I was concerned this had come up in a document that I that I had researched

[00:32:40] uh recently and this this issue and I knew what the district’s policy was so

[00:32:48] um yes I I was it had entered my mind for sure so I I thought to myself yeah

[00:32:54] that here’s what I’m going to do I’m just going to use her name only and never use pronouns you got a lot of kids too right oh man we I had like 30 30

[00:33:02] something kids per period I had five straight periods no I was talking about you have kids at home that you’re taking care of right oh yes yes I had I have 30

[00:33:10] kids at home I don’t have 30 of my own kids Kevin but at the time how many kids did you have we had four with a fifth

[00:33:17] one on the way okay and so this is a serious issue because um if you lose your job you’re providing for your

[00:33:23] family and everything so that’s a big deal um so my guest today is David Jones he is a a resident here in San Diego

[00:33:30] County he was a teacher uh in the Sweetwater Union uh School District uh

[00:33:35] and and for 10 years you had uh been involved in off and on in the school district absolutely yeah so when we get

[00:33:41] back we’re going to continue this conversation and it’s a real issue you know just like um Jim Campbell said and

[00:33:46] Blaine Adamson said is that uh there’s a price to pay to follow Christ and sometimes doing the right thing is not

[00:33:53] the easy thing in fact frequently it’s not and so uh as Christians this is where we’re at and this is coming home

[00:33:58] to roost a lot of people didn’t anticipate these kinds of battles coming up but they are and we have to make a

[00:34:03] decision do I uh do I just go along to get along or do I walk with Christ

[00:34:10] despite the difficulties that arise stay with us we’re going to be right

[00:34:18] back hi this is Jason Hall president of Team Hans a branch of synergy1 lending I

[00:34:24] just want to take this opportunity to thank Kevin Conover for the profound impact he’s had on mine and my wife’s

[00:34:30] spiritual life as well as being an incredible teacher while our kids were his students his knowledge and passion

[00:34:35] have taught us all how important it is to be Defenders of our faith it’s our honor and privilege to support Kevin and

[00:34:41] his show it is our sincere hope and prayer that you will continue to learn to be Defenders of your faith through Kevin’s radio show and through his

[00:34:48] educate for Life teachings thank you Kevin from the hall family and team Home

[00:34:53] Loans this is throughout all ages Ministry with Joe and Stacy we would like to equip you to share the gospel

[00:35:00] with confidence in a Biblical and effective way we would like to teach you through the proclamation of the Gospel

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[00:35:11] without excuse oneon-one evangelism how do you think you can get to heaven never really thought about it but I’ve always

[00:35:16] thought of you know doing good more information go throughout allages.com like us on Facebook or visit us at YouTube at throughout all ages when you

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[00:36:28] then going back and for welcome to educate for life I’m your host Kevin Conover if you haven’t heard yet there is a homeschool conference coming up

[00:36:35] it’s the first one that educate for life is putting on I’m very excited uh you may or may not know this Tim tibo was

[00:36:40] homeschooled himself by uh his mother along with his four siblings and uh back

[00:36:46] in 1982 Pam tibo his mother started homeschooling she was kind of a homeschool Pioneer before it was popular

[00:36:51] to homeschool and which is becoming more and more popular by the way but um San Diego County this is San Diego County’s

[00:36:57] only homeschool conference it’s August 4th and 5th it’s going to be presented by the creation and Earth History Museum

[00:37:03] in Santi uh in partnership with my Ministry educate forlife we are very excited about it hope you can join us uh

[00:37:09] you can register online at register educate forlife.com today my guest is

[00:37:15] David Jones uh we also had on Blaine Adamson and uh Jim Campbell attorney Jim Campbell with the alliance defending

[00:37:21] Freedom David Jones is telling us his story about how uh he was fired from the

[00:37:26] Sweetwater School District because he would not call a girl a boy and he struggled over this issue uh David when

[00:37:33] you when you um when we left off the last uh segment you were talking about

[00:37:38] how um you got you had four kids and another on the way so is that going through your mind too as you’re trying

[00:37:44] to make a decision about this it absolutely is we we also own the house and there’s obviously just a lot of

[00:37:50] responsibilities and so I’m thinking about those and just the um I guess the

[00:37:56] anxiety if that’s the right word of trying to do the right thing that’s

[00:38:01] really what I wanted to do I didn’t want to misrepresent Christ by being uh you

[00:38:07] know doing something inappropriate and so I wanted to do the right thing and that was probably the most important

[00:38:13] thing on my mind is I didn’t want to misstep this is significant I didn’t want to misstep and

[00:38:19] misrepresent now uh in your mind how would you misrepresent Christ because again some people are thinking of

[00:38:25] themselves look it the best representation of Christ is to look at this young girl recognize that she’s got

[00:38:31] struggles in her own life that she’s even thinking this way and why wouldn’t you just help her and support her and

[00:38:37] love her through this rather than creating conflict and just call her a he

[00:38:43] and you know figure out another way to to represent Christ well

[00:38:50] um so how are you thinking to yourself this is going to violate uh or or

[00:38:55] misrepresent Christ well it’s exactly that that’s how I thought it could is maybe I should just go along you know

[00:39:01] and and um I one of the things I learned most

[00:39:07] through this I think probably the most significant thing I learned through this ordeal was something I call it truth

[00:39:14] first um truth first like I’ve had some Christians actually approach me and they

[00:39:21] were uh they were bothered by the fact that I took a stand here and you know I

[00:39:27] on one hand I can understand that but having G had to go through that and think it through I’ve learned that truth

[00:39:34] comes first and that’s almost counterintuitive because we hear these you know there are scripture that say

[00:39:40] love is the most important love is the greatest you know be a servant of all Jesus said yeah but I had to understand

[00:39:48] that before you could even say those things you have to say that the truth of

[00:39:53] the word of God is the most important thing otherwise you couldn’t even claim those things were true oh that’s really

[00:39:59] good and so you have those saying love is the greatest or um be a servant of

[00:40:06] all is the is the greatest are built on the foundation that the word of God is

[00:40:12] truth and so truth has to come first wow that’s really good yeah I I’m I’m just

[00:40:18] thinking as you’re saying that that makes so much sense because if there’s if if truth is just an opinion then what

[00:40:24] that means is that loving a person is just an opinion whe that loving a person

[00:40:29] is good is just an opinion and and if the word of God is true then it tells us the proper way to love exactly so so

[00:40:36] you’ve got to put truth first and then find out what truth says is the right way to act exactly and a great example

[00:40:43] of this is how to is disciplining your children you know some folks will take a

[00:40:48] non disciplinarian role when um training up their children but the Bible is

[00:40:54] actually super clear on how to train your children and discipline your children and it’s counterintuitive to

[00:41:01] today’s culture but if you take a truth first stance and say I’m going to look

[00:41:07] at the word of God and go with truth first it tells you how to love your

[00:41:12] children it says if you spare the rod you hate your child and that is super

[00:41:17] counterintuitive to our culture but that’s what truth first does is it puts things into place W that’s fantastic

[00:41:24] yeah and um and Jesus Christ said I I always found this very interesting I was

[00:41:30] actually down at the beach um sharing the gospel this past weekend and I was talking to a Hindu and he said to me I

[00:41:36] really like Jesus I really like Jesus Jesus is great um and he said there’s one thing I didn’t like about what Jesus

[00:41:42] said and I said what what is that he said well there’s a a scripture where it says that Jesus didn’t come to bring

[00:41:48] peace he came to bring a sword and I thought oh my goodness this is so important because that verse is

[00:41:55] basically saying what excuse me that verse is basically saying what you’re you’re talking about right now is

[00:42:01] Jesus did not come to bring peace um or or he didn’t he he didn’t come to

[00:42:06] sacrifice truth on the altar of Peace meaning truth first just what you’re saying if if peace uh has to be um if

[00:42:14] truth has to be sacrificed to bring PE peace then Christ is going to bring truth before he brings peace absolutely

[00:42:20] yeah it’s not peace first it’s not peace first that’s right and a lot of people say Unity first over truth but you can’t

[00:42:27] can’t really have Unity without truth and and unity is supposed to be surrounded um is supposed to be based on

[00:42:33] truth absolutely what is love built upon how do you properly love somebody how do

[00:42:39] you how do you have Unity with somebody what is that built upon you have to have objective underlying truth in order to

[00:42:45] do that otherwise we descend into a moral relativist basically opinions are

[00:42:50] everything kind of thing and everybody gets to make up their own ideas about what’s good and what’s bad versus um

[00:42:58] building it upon the the word of God yes that’s powerful so so keep let’s keep

[00:43:03] going here with the story so you’re you’re struggling with this now did you talk to um you talk to a variety of

[00:43:09] people they’re giving you different opinions what caused you to eventually go you know what this is the decision I’ve got to make oh and I I also want to

[00:43:15] talk about is why why is your decision to continue

[00:43:20] to call her a girl um why is that something that has to do with truth what

[00:43:26] what’s the the issue there why did you feel like you were violating God’s word if you were to call her a boy instead of

[00:43:32] a girl well sure because she is a girl and that is the truth and as

[00:43:41] rudimentary as that sounds I think that is the truth and I you look at the Bible um in several places God talks about

[00:43:49] gender and it’s super important to him um in Deuteronomy 22 he talks about men

[00:43:54] wearing with women’s clothing and women wearing men’s clothing that’s it was inappropriate um you go to Apostle Paul

[00:44:03] he talked about hairstyles and and kind of confusing genders with hairstyles

[00:44:08] Jesus talked about from the beginning God made them male and female and so we

[00:44:13] know that this is important to God and um there’s loads of verses that talk

[00:44:20] about speaking truth and in Ephesians 4

[00:44:25] uh apostle Paul says let no corrupt word proceed from your

[00:44:30] mouth and I W I just really feel like that is that this is act actually the

[00:44:37] scripture that really took me there I was like that is a corrupt word I felt like I was not only not speaking the

[00:44:44] truth but it was it was corrupt it was a Corruption of the truth wow yeah and uh

[00:44:50] you know my guest today is David Jones we we’re coming up on a break here but we have one more segment left we’re going to finish this off and talk about

[00:44:57] um what happened after David uh basically told the administration listen I’m not going to call this girl a boy

[00:45:05] I’m not willing to do that I’m not willing to you know this violates the the idea that somebody would call a girl

[00:45:11] a boy is asking somebody to basically violate no not only the word of God but

[00:45:17] just basic science right this is a this is a girl this is a boy um and it’s

[00:45:24] weird that our culture is in a place where it’s doring those things and saying no it we can be whatever we want

[00:45:30] to be right what a bizarre place to be we’ll be right [Music]

[00:45:36] back did you know that Denver Broncos quarterback Tim TBO was homeschooled along with all four of his siblings by

[00:45:43] his mom Pam tibo you’re invited to hear Pam share how to successfully educate

[00:45:48] your children with a Biblical world view at San Diego County’s only homeschool conference hear local experts as they

[00:45:56] give you the tool you’ll need to help you teach your children don’t miss the educate for Life homeschool conference

[00:46:02] Friday and Saturday August 4th and 5th presented by the creation and Earth History Museum in Santi featuring

[00:46:09] worship with Michael Sanchez of the voice well-known local Bible teacher and radio host Tom caner Pat Roy creator of

[00:46:16] the Jonathan Park creation Adventure Audio Drama Series and educate for life’s Kevin Conover learn more become

[00:46:24] an exhibitor or register online now at register educate forlife.com that’s

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[00:47:03] Marina across from SeaWorld 619 222 0766 hi this is Jason Hall president of

[00:47:11] Team Home Loans a branch of synergy One Lending I just want to take this opportunity to thank Kevin Conover for

[00:47:16] the profound impact he’s had on mine and my wife’s spiritual life as well as being an incredible teacher while our

[00:47:22] kids were his students his knowledge and passion have taught us all how important it is to be Defenders of our faith it’s

[00:47:28] our honor and privilege to support Kevin and his show it is our sincere hope and prayer that you will continue to learn

[00:47:34] to be Defenders of your faith through Kevin’s radio show and through his educate for Life teachings thank you

[00:47:39] Kevin from the hall family and team Home Loans I will cast my on

[00:47:47] you you’re the welcome to educate for life I’m your host Kevin Conover my website’s educate forlife.org if you

[00:47:54] haven’t checked out my site um I have an on online school that basically um

[00:48:00] teaches students but also adults anybody who’s interested it teaches them all about the Bible and all the questions

[00:48:07] that come up that pertain to the Bible um everything about creation and evolution world religions how do you

[00:48:12] know our religions the right the right religion uh can you actually tell which faith is true and which is false um we

[00:48:18] also cover things like excuse me the issue of abortion of course the issue of

[00:48:23] homosexuality why is God opposed to homosexuality why is it such a big deal um we cover things like how do you know

[00:48:29] that the Bible is actually God’s word and is inspired how do you know it has been changed all these sorts of things

[00:48:34] so please check it out if you if you get a chance we also have a homeschool conference coming up August 4th and 5th

[00:48:40] Pam TBO is going to be speaking Tim tbo’s mom she is a homeschooled Pioneer homeschooled all five of her kids and

[00:48:46] she’s there to inspire and encourage uh parents who have decided uh that they’re going to take on the Monumental task of

[00:48:52] homeschooling their kids um that is a big undertaking and uh but well well worth it so uh my guest today is David

[00:48:59] Jones and we’ve been talking about what’s happening in the workplace specifically with um discrimination and

[00:49:06] persecution uh against Christians and specifically what I mean by that I’m not trying to like hype something up that

[00:49:12] doesn’t exist there’s a lot of people out there that say what Christians in America aren’t persecuted but uh on a

[00:49:18] certain level they are if your ability to make money is jeopardized by what you believe then that’s persecution and my

[00:49:26] friend here today today in studio with me who actually has helped me tremendously on the curriculum also that I was just talking about um he uh lost

[00:49:33] his job because of his conviction that to call a girl a boy um would actually

[00:49:40] be violating his conscience because the Bible’s very clear that God made two Sexes and that’s it he made men and he

[00:49:47] made women now of course um there are different there there are people have different feelings about their sexuality

[00:49:53] but when it comes to biology there are men and there are women now of course there are men that feel more feminine or

[00:50:00] have more feminine what we typically call feminine characteristics and there are men who have uh I’m sorry there are

[00:50:05] women who have more masculine characteristics but that doesn’t mean that there are no male and female

[00:50:10] there’s still biological men and women regardless of how how a person feels right we have what what we would call

[00:50:17] objective facts and then we have what we would call subjective opinions uh a subjective opinion would be um I like

[00:50:23] chocolate ice cream an objective fact would be ice cream exists right and so when we deal with

[00:50:30] sexuality male and female an objective fact is there are biologically males and

[00:50:35] there are biologically women um a subjective opinion might be um you act

[00:50:42] like a male or you act like a girl right that’s more of a subjective opinion and

[00:50:48] so this is important to discuss so David you were telling me that um you

[00:50:54] finally came to the conclusion this is the right thing to do do um this is what I need to do and how would you tell

[00:51:00] somebody this is the loving thing to do that you chose to do and um then tell us what happened after you made that

[00:51:06] decision sure um that’s a tough one this is the loving thing to do I I I think um

[00:51:14] supporting someone’s um misconceptions about

[00:51:19] themselves is probably the easiest way to answer that but as I said before I

[00:51:26] came from from this from a truth first um situation and honestly that’s

[00:51:31] where I had to lay my foundation and I I think sometimes

[00:51:37] that’s that’s all you have in this instance I did really know my back was

[00:51:42] going to be up against a wall I was pretty nervous uh eventually um I got another email um that I was told to that

[00:51:50] she was going to change her name and so my little plan of just only using you

[00:51:56] know her name name and not just avoid the pronouns that that wasn’t going to work and I decided at that point um

[00:52:06] I I’m G to have to you know meet this headon I said I can I can try to dodge

[00:52:12] this one but eventually I’m going to be whether it’s this issue this this particular situation or another one I’m

[00:52:19] going to have to stand up I knew that like that was clear to me at that moment I had Clarity I’m gonna have to stand

[00:52:26] and I said this is this is the time I’m going to stand and so I just had a simple conversation with the student and

[00:52:32] said I’m I’ve gotten the emails but I’ve decided not to use you know male

[00:52:39] pronouns and I’m just going to use the name your legal name and I thought you know I didn’t hear

[00:52:46] from her or anybody else for a couple weeks and I thought oh man it just must have blown over I must have worked this

[00:52:51] up in my mind bigger than it was but suddenly you know the hammer came down

[00:52:56] and and I was suddenly escorted not escorted but asked to come into the principal’s office and shown a whole

[00:53:01] bunch of legal documentation and then actually that was the assistant principal’s office they thought I was just going to you know bend over to

[00:53:08] their will right then and there but I I said you know I’m sorry but I’m not going to do that and they said oh well

[00:53:15] let’s go talk to the principal which we did and um you know it just escalated

[00:53:21] from there and um eventually it took about 6 months but eventually I was let go from that from that particular

[00:53:27] teacher teaching position yeah and and uh as of you know as far as we know no

[00:53:33] uh legal representation has said that this is a case that you could win in court yeah unfortunately I’ve I’ve talked to several um attorneys that

[00:53:41] would be you know uh on my side and they’ve all said yeah unfortunately just

[00:53:47] this this just isn’t really a winable case yeah and yet this is something that’s happening more and more um you’re

[00:53:53] not the only teacher to be let go um because they wouldn’t call call somebody um the opposite sex I I’ve read several

[00:54:00] articles about this it happened in Texas in an elementary school and several other states and this is going to

[00:54:05] continue to be be an issue as people continue to say hey I can I can be whatever sex I want um and so um so you

[00:54:14] were let go and at this time you’ve moved on and and you’re not going to um fight this anymore no um I I didn’t

[00:54:22] never have a feeling of hey I want to fight this like I I I wasn’t angry yeah

[00:54:28] um but I had numerous people around me my wife was probably the most supportive of

[00:54:36] those who she was really bothered by the situation one fact I haven’t mentioned yet is that even from the original email

[00:54:43] from the counselors even though I was told I had to use male pronouns in

[00:54:48] speaking with the student yeah I was told I had to use female pronouns with in talking with the

[00:54:55] parents that’s because the parents didn’t know so they were asking you to lie essentially they were telling me I

[00:55:01] had to deceive the parents I couldn’t I I could not communicate what was happening to the parents and obviously

[00:55:08] as a mom my wife was most bothered by that she was like that is horrible and

[00:55:14] this this is horrible and so she I had like I said numerous friends and family

[00:55:20] around me that was very supportive my wife was very very bothered and um

[00:55:25] honestly that made it really easy uh in a sense to stand I get didn’t make it easy but that made it very much easier

[00:55:32] because she was so supportive she was so bothered um we ended up talking with my kids and just kind of telling them what

[00:55:38] was going on and we you know brought up Daniel and Shadrach mhach and a bendo and those are great examples I me exctly

[00:55:45] we will not bow down yeah I always thought to myself you know Shadrach Meshach and abedo could have just bowed

[00:55:50] down and been like but we don’t really we don’t we are not really worshiping the the idol you know we just had a tire

[00:55:56] shot yeah exactly that’s right and so um there’s so many examples in the Bible where God doesn’t expect us to hide um

[00:56:02] our faith and that’s that is the struggle sometimes being a Christian is that we’re supposed to be outward about

[00:56:08] not not to look for the easy Escape you know and so um thank you so much for

[00:56:13] your example and for standing for truth and for trying to do the right thing despite uh the consequences the very

[00:56:19] real consequences that you faced you bet well uh this has been a fantastic show

[00:56:24] um there’s so much more to talk about I just recently interviewed Dean BRS also who is an attorney defending um or

[00:56:31] defending parents who don’t want uh improper sex education in the high schools which is going into the San Diego City Schools right now um that

[00:56:38] look that show up if you haven’t listened to it um and get involved there’s so much stuff going on right now in our culture to be involved in to make

[00:56:44] a difference to be a light for Christ um and to be loving too um we are we praise

[00:56:51] the truth we love the truth but we love people too and the reason we love people is because we love the truth it goes

[00:56:57] hand in hand you can’t you can’t have truth and not have love you can’t have love and not have truth it just goes hand in hand so thanks for being here

[00:57:03] today I hope you have a fantastic Saturday hope to see you August 4th and 5th at the homeschool conference here in San Diego California did you miss part

[00:57:09] of today’s program visit educate for life.com for podcast and video recordings of the show and to sign up

[00:57:16] for the school of unshakable Faith leave us your comments compliments questions or concerns at 800 24397 19 or email

[00:57:25] Kevon educate for life.com that’s Kev