Still Standing: Following Jesus Even When It Hurt with Lina Abujamra, MD

[00:00:00] thanks for being here this evening my name is Kevin Conover I’m your host on educate for Life radio we’re broadcasting down in Southern California

[00:00:06] on fm106.1 in north county kpre is 1210 a.m. all over San Diego County and um

[00:00:15] we’ve got a great uh program for you this evening and uh of course we’re also podcast on Spotify and we’re live on

[00:00:21] Facebook my website is educate forlife.org you can check it out all kinds of resources there for you and um

[00:00:27] if you’ve been following us last week I had Gentleman on the show who was an atheist and he um talked about how he

[00:00:36] grew up in a Christian family how his faith uh was challenged how he actually ended up talking to a Muslim and they

[00:00:43] were going back and forth and the Muslim uh fellow challenged him uh to give him

[00:00:49] more evidence for who Jesus was and he felt like he couldn’t do that he felt

[00:00:55] like he couldn’t give the evidence and he ended up that um started him down the path towards questioning his faith and

[00:01:01] ultimately abandoning his faith um and if you’ve been around or watching this

[00:01:06] this is a common thing um happening nowadays in the culture um where people are they call it uh deconstructing their

[00:01:14] faith and uh it’s it’s not something any any parent wants to hear happens to

[00:01:19] their kid and so um that’s a big part of what I do is help uh parents um really

[00:01:26] prepare their kids for the tough questions that are coming their way and and um the stuff in life that is often

[00:01:32] unexpected that kind of throws people off balance and my um my guest this evening is Dr Lena Abu abujamra and she

[00:01:42] um has written several books um but one of them um her most recent book is

[00:01:48] called Still Standing following Jesus even when it hurts which I think is an

[00:01:53] incredibly appropriate book um considering the times we live in uh Dr Lena thanks a lot for uh joining us on

[00:02:00] the program thanks for having me it’s fun yeah absolutely and um you know um

[00:02:07] your website is uh Power for living.org is that correct uh livingwith power.org

[00:02:14] close I’m sorry living livingwith power.org and um you know it’s

[00:02:21] interesting um Dr Lena was uh spoke at Chapel at Christian High School where I

[00:02:27] teach and um uh Lena one of the things that um you said really stuck with me

[00:02:35] actually I actually wrote it down because I like the quote so much um but before I hop into that just a little bit

[00:02:40] about um Lena she’s a pediatric emergency room doctor she’s the founder

[00:02:45] of living with power Ministries her vision is to bring hope to the World by connecting biblical answers to Everyday Life she’s the author of several books

[00:02:52] including fractured Faith Thrive and her most recent book um actually not uh I

[00:02:57] guess second most recent book don’t tell anyone you’re reading this a Christian doctor’s thoughts on sex shame and other Troublesome issues and uh that’s all

[00:03:05] kinds of interesting stuff and you’re originally from Lebanon is that uh correct yeah grew up in Lebanon yep and

[00:03:11] we moved when I was a senior in high school yeah yeah so the quote that you

[00:03:16] you said in the chapel was you said in order to gain peace you must give up understanding and um that really struck

[00:03:24] me and actually resonated with me maybe we can start there um what is that quot

[00:03:30] actually mean well um just to give credit where credit is due I watch college football

[00:03:36] now my nephews play college football and so I I’m very now Adept at all that

[00:03:42] happens in that world I I was only a Green Bay Packers Fan for the longest time and U we of course when we moved

[00:03:48] from Lebanon we moved to Green Bay Wisconsin so I you know jumped on that bandwagon my dad has been a lifelong he

[00:03:54] passed away 10 years ago but he was a lifelong Packers fan but but we never were into the college World well my neph

[00:04:00] play and so we’ve been watching a lot of the college stuff and there’s a quarterback out of Clemson who’s a very

[00:04:06] strong man of God his name is Kade kumnick interestingly little tidbit his uncle and I just this is random because

[00:04:13] I’ve lost you know I Facebook friends with his uncle but from 30 years 30 years ago when I was in my 20s uh we

[00:04:19] were both young life leaders during my residency in Houston Texas and we both have had lives he has a family and and

[00:04:26] I’ve in Chicago with my nephews who I’m very close with and my nephew is playing in college and he’s plays for Duke and

[00:04:33] he’ll actually play against Kate club Mick next year but but so we’re in tuned to all of that and so Cade put that a

[00:04:39] few weeks ago and it was he’s shining right now he’s had an incredible season but at the beginning of the Season he

[00:04:44] wasn’t doing very well uh he had a couple of really hard uh games where he was critiqued very heavily I think

[00:04:50] somewhere towards the end of I think last season he had a harder time this has been a really good season for him but he’s been a Star Quarterback but

[00:04:55] during the slump he hasn’t stopped giving glory to God and he put at one point when he was getting a lot of

[00:05:02] resistance from people because people want PE their quarterbacks to win and so he put a verse proverbs 35 and six on

[00:05:09] Instagram with that quote and I agree it resonated it summarizes so much of what

[00:05:16] I’ve written about you can tell a young man’s anointed because I’ve spent my life writing multiple books and podcasts

[00:05:22] and and he summarized it in one sentence and it boils down to that what you just

[00:05:27] quoted which is the essence of Proverbs 35 and 6 which is the verses that say trust in the Lord with all your heart

[00:05:33] lean not on your own understanding in all your ways acknowledge Him and He will direct your paths and he wrote this sentence and again think of it not from

[00:05:40] a successful Star Quarterback but at the time critiqued you know and and still standing up for the faith but really

[00:05:46] feeling the pressure of all of that and he wrote uh um in order to have peace

[00:05:52] you must give up understanding and it does hit you in the gut because that’s

[00:05:57] really that’s really faith that’s the Christian Life that’s it I don’t know you can say it any better it’s it

[00:06:04] God he could give us understanding but that’s the point it’s like you have to choose you you know you we’re so we

[00:06:12] think if God gives me the facts then I’ll have peace right but it’s the opposite it’s Christ is our peace so you

[00:06:19] don’t need the facts technically if you really trust him which so you go back to like your pastor last week who you know

[00:06:26] the gentleman who no longer is a Christian which surprises me by the way because a lot of people when they investigate Christ the opposite happens

[00:06:32] they if there’s a true intellectual Pursuit Of Who Christ is they fall on the side of Faith but you know how

[00:06:38] however that played out maybe maybe he’ll come back around to Christ but I think we’re very in our generation too I

[00:06:45] we’re very now in 2024 obsessed with with knowledge and knowing and security

[00:06:50] and chat GPT and I need to have the answer now and the opposite of what it

[00:06:55] means to be a Christian which is just you know one thing Christ and everything else you have to be able to say I’m good

[00:07:01] without the answers yeah it’s interesting because you know for me growing up I I was going to a public

[00:07:07] high school grew up in a Christian family and I’m bumping into a lot of people who have a lot of different opinions I you know and and for me as a

[00:07:14] young kid I’m I’m thinking to myself whoa whoa what in the world I I met a Muslim from Bosnia uh she was a refugee

[00:07:21] I met I had another friend who was Jehovah’s Witness that I was sitting next to I had a I had a Catholic kid on

[00:07:26] one side of me in a chemistry class I had a Jehovah’s Witness on the other side of me and the the Catholic kid is

[00:07:33] telling me Kevin tell him he’s wrong and I’m a Protestant and so I’m like getting

[00:07:39] all these views and I’m like man I got to figure this out like what what in the world and so I’m trying to do all these research I’m trying to get all these

[00:07:45] answers and it’s really interesting to me because you know on one side of the coin um we have all the evidence we need

[00:07:51] to know that the Bible is God’s word um but on the other side of the coin is

[00:07:56] exactly what you’re saying what I’ve noticed as I’ve I’ve talked to a lot of atheists recently for for some reason

[00:08:01] I’m not sure exactly why but but um what keeps coming up to me is that this

[00:08:06] expectation of I want an answer to this and it’s like this little detail in scripture where they’re like nitpicking

[00:08:13] something and I’m I’m like really that’s what’s holding you back is because you don’t understand that and and they’re

[00:08:19] like yeah what’s the explanation and I’m like thinking to myself you got to be kidding me um you know don’t don’t major

[00:08:25] in the minors here there’s a bigger picture than this small thing and so that’s what really resonates with me

[00:08:31] about what you’re saying is that is that um at some point you have to decide and I I read Billy Graham’s biography and he

[00:08:38] said there was a point in his life where he was having a crisis of faith and he had to make a decision and the decision

[00:08:45] was either I’m going to move forward and trust that this is true or I’m going to leave and I’m not going to be an

[00:08:51] evangelist which is is interesting that here’s this person that’s you know we a lot of people look up to who had that um

[00:08:59] moment where he had to make a decision I’m either gonna move forward or I’m gonna move backwards and it seems like

[00:09:06] um you know people do that so honestly I think it’s true and I think that we think I think a lot as so

[00:09:14] a lot of what I’ve written about in terms of wrestling with faith and all a lot of my books talk about that really it’s it’s the same s I’ve wrestled with

[00:09:21] faith and it’s interesting because I always thought I was Faith came easy to me I came to Christ as a child I dedicated my life to Christ as a

[00:09:27] teenager and like in a way like I it’s come as a surprise to me to think why have I wrestled with faith but I don’t

[00:09:33] think it’s with faith that I’ve wrestled and I so I think you know I think you know we think that that wrestling with

[00:09:39] with faith happens when you want to get saved like we use that you know to use that old Bible language you know or

[00:09:45] Baptist Lang grew up with like but and then we think that if you make that commitment to Christ that you’ll never

[00:09:52] question again and and so the your point to Billy Graham I mean you think how could he question things but the

[00:09:59] contrary we will have crisis of fa Faith again and again and if we’re not warned about that then you have like the Joshua

[00:10:05] Harris deconstructionists and others that you’re like scratching your head going away I thought he was a pastor how did he walk away from the faith well

[00:10:11] because it’s normal to wrestle and what I found to be the point of like the biggest wrestling for me as I’ve walked

[00:10:20] and matured and and and in Seasons where I’ve been teaching the Bible on one hand and yet really having crisis of Faith

[00:10:26] inside and it’s not just it’s not been whether Christ exists it’s been do I believe that he is good it’s the

[00:10:35] goodness of God that’s been my point of because when we look at our disappointments and our unanswered

[00:10:40] prayers and our delays and all the things that you know Prosperity preachers can glibly say if you’re a

[00:10:46] Christian and you believe in him all these things going to work out for you Romans 8:28 and they stamp it on everything and you kind of wake up 10

[00:10:53] years into your faith going man I’m still single I don’t have any kids and and all the things that you think I should have had by now that I’m not my

[00:10:59] Ministry I thought I’d sell 100,000 books my now I’m struggling to sell you know all the things that you put in your

[00:11:04] path as measures of success and you kind of go how did I get so changed here and you’re and so you start I think the

[00:11:11] subtle you know the the Temptation that happened to Eve that happens to us I think as followers of Christ it’s not do

[00:11:18] we believe Jesus exists but do we really believe he’s good when a child dies unexpectedly when a spouse leaves

[00:11:24] without any wow where did that come from now they come to you and say oh I’ve know I’ve been married for 20 years but

[00:11:30] I’m gay and all the stuff that you know stuff that you’re like what how could God do that to me I A friend of mine is

[00:11:35] married to a pastor who just left her and I and and basically fell into deep depression after being a missionary and

[00:11:41] a pastor and now I found out he left her and I think wow how and I don’t know at what point a person says you know I

[00:11:48] don’t know that God is that good because all the things that I thought he would do in my life he hasn’t done and that’s a lie and but that is I think a Point of

[00:11:55] Departure from the faith slowly drifting away from from from the from who God is and the essence of his goodness in our

[00:12:02] life yes I think that is a critical a critical message and I think um there’s

[00:12:08] a misunderstanding because I see it in the students that I teach I think there’s a misunderstanding of what it means to be a Christian um and when

[00:12:16] you’re set up with these false expectations and they somebody pulls the

[00:12:21] rug out from underneath you all of a sudden you’re like whoa whoa whoa wait a second this is not what I signed up for

[00:12:27] you’re not following through on your part of the deal here and it’s the problem is is that the deal was never

[00:12:34] understood and so you have uh kids having this and you know you wrote um

[00:12:40] you you wrote the book fractured faith and then you have this other book um Still Standing following Jesus even when

[00:12:46] it hurts um can you I mean that’s really what we’re talking about is the title of

[00:12:52] your books here essentially um so share with us uh a little bit about your

[00:12:58] journey what would be encouragement to somebody and I know that there are many people that are going through this because I know I know the people I I I

[00:13:05] know this I mean I feel like it’s a common theme that I see everywhere is

[00:13:11] people that followed God and ended up with I think a sense of a contract like

[00:13:17] you mentioned yeah like so I think it happens subtly like you grow up with this message in the church that I don’t

[00:13:23] think it’s meant to harm you I mean I think people mean it well but and maybe it’s a way of parents to make sure their

[00:13:28] kids Don’t Stray I don’t know the church’s way of keeping you you know on the straight and narrow but it’s it’s a

[00:13:35] dangerous way but it’s this somehow somewhere in my teens and my 20s I thought I I sort of embraced this idea

[00:13:41] that if I do my part god will do his and and you fall into even though you’re saved by grace and you believe in grace

[00:13:48] I don’t think we understand Grace and so you develop this way and so for me my first big crisis happened when I was in

[00:13:53] my 20s I um I got engaged and in engagement two weeks before the wedding

[00:13:59] and I had really been like I was I had maintained pure standards you know didn’t date a lot I went to Medical I

[00:14:05] went to Christian College went to medical school like lived the Christian Life people knew I was saved I hosted Bible studies in my home you know the

[00:14:11] things that you would do that you I wasn’t living in rebellion and didn’t mean I was sinless but you know the big

[00:14:17] bad things that Christians would say I didn’t do I didn’t do and I um I I I had

[00:14:24] you know in in the course of getting engaged there was a little bit more to the backstory there was a guy who has my

[00:14:29] best friend in college who was a Christian who was in in in medicine with me and and at some point I realized like

[00:14:35] for years I thought something would happen there but at some point and this is I think dangerous I felt like God had

[00:14:40] given me a verse that I circled and I dated where I felt like God spoke to me

[00:14:46] and I think there’s a danger I don’t think God doesn’t speak to us through scripture but there’s a danger when we Elevate when what we think God is saying

[00:14:53] to just waiting and letting God speak in his time through all the things you know his Sovereign will and folding and all

[00:14:59] the things and so at some point before I ended the engagement I had this sense that maybe that other relationship was

[00:15:05] going to work out and I had the verse and circled it and ended the engagement mutually two weeks before the wedding so

[00:15:11] it was a big deal and fully believing that God was going to Resto bring that other relationship to marriage we were

[00:15:18] best friends so it wasn’t like that unheard of that that would happen but but of course by then I had been engaged

[00:15:23] the guy had moved on and eventually he married somebody else and that devastated me so that was my first big sort of season of trying to understand

[00:15:31] how you can be so confident of something that God might have said to you that it almost takes

[00:15:37] you off course and the danger is I I sto I I was less confident in God than I was

[00:15:44] confident in the interpretation of what I thought God’s word said you see and so again it’s a subtle thing and so it took

[00:15:51] a while I mean it took a few months for God to sort of land me in a space and he used ironically I mean he used his word

[00:15:58] and I think one of the dangers when people deconstruct is the lack of any Christian voice like they turn their

[00:16:04] head away from any scriptural like they become so opposed to it that they won’t and and you’re not going to hear truth

[00:16:10] if you don’t hear truth right so now the bend is if you’re deconstructing you just shut everybody Christian up and you

[00:16:15] go listen to everybody non-Christian well of course you’re not going to hear the truth and the grace of God and the goodness of God in my life is that even

[00:16:22] in those Seasons if there was one and some of this is because I honestly my my personality is very like you know I I’m

[00:16:29] I’m a kind of to some degree a rule keeper and I would read my Bible every day and and that’s okay keep that rule

[00:16:36] if you have that rule keep it if you’re a young person listening to the show if you’re a parent encourage your kids to read the Bible every day and and there

[00:16:42] were Seasons where I didn’t get much out of it I was mad reading it and but I was in scripture and God used scripture

[00:16:48] Hosea in particular to really get my attention back in my 20s when this was happening uh there’s a verse in Hosea

[00:16:54] that just stopped me in in the midst of my Despair and it’s where he says God says that he allur Israel Into the

[00:17:00] Wilderness and there he turns the Wilderness into a place of hope and it really stuned me that God actually allur

[00:17:07] his people to the Wilderness I never had an understanding that God would do that

[00:17:13] why would God send us to the Wilderness but the Wilderness was the place where you would meet him at a deeper deeper

[00:17:18] more intimate level so there was a deeper understanding of God in that point of surrender and I thought now I

[00:17:23] was out of the words honestly Kevin I thought my life was going to be fine now because not only was I Christian at a

[00:17:29] young age but I’ve wrestled with God and I’ve abandoned my idols and I’ve given up my singleness and then I decided

[00:17:35] God’s calling me to Ministry I was teaching the Bible I felt God called me to teach the Bible and now I was intent

[00:17:40] this it all made sense why I didn’t end up getting married because I’m you know and I we all want these answers that are

[00:17:47] so clean cut and and 10 years went by of course I got engaged again ended the engagement but that didn’t devastated me

[00:17:53] at that point I think I was at that point to a certain degree I’m relatively called to be single not opposed to marriage but comfortable being single

[00:18:00] but the big thing that that hit me out of the park was uh in 2013 I had been in

[00:18:06] a church that was very vibrant really Revival feeling and for a couple years before I left in 2013 I actually served

[00:18:14] as the woman’s Ministry director and was very much on the inside circle of the church and it imploded in a very public

[00:18:20] fashion it was one of the two churches that imploded in Chicago and it gutted me because I left before the full

[00:18:27] implosion it was when people were starting to leave but the pastor was not disqualified yet and for six years I was

[00:18:34] the others I was um one of the people who had left so now you had the people

[00:18:40] who had stayed and the people who had left and in leaving I thought I was doing the right thing and I thought God

[00:18:46] was going to vindicate me by showing the others that you know the ones who stayed

[00:18:51] that I we were making the right decision in leaving it took six years for that to come to full fruition and in those six

[00:18:57] years I lost my Social Network I lost my close friends my my my social life my my

[00:19:04] Ministry place my books were just starting to be published everything everything all those dreams that I had

[00:19:09] taken from the guy that I thought would marry that I had placed in Ministry which again was a mistake because the point isn’t to take your dreams from one

[00:19:16] project to the other the point is to put your dreams in the Lord but but it’s a that has to come with maturity and

[00:19:21] understanding so inevitably you’re going to hurt along the way but that pain will draw you closer to the Lord and so it

[00:19:27] took me a long time honestly I’m not a slow fixer like I’m a slow healer I’m not a fast healer it took me years to

[00:19:35] walk that path of understanding and coming full circle to the place you know

[00:19:40] obviously there’s some Vindication when things eventually came to a head I felt a sense of okay I wasn’t crazy I’m not

[00:19:46] the bad person but boy my faith hurt in those 10 years even more than ending the

[00:19:54] engagement and losing the person that I thought would marry because I think I be became confused in leaving a church that

[00:20:01] I loved it it see you know the problem with a lot of people who are wrestling with church hurt is that it becomes

[00:20:09] confusing to separate God from the pastor you see you in in our minds you

[00:20:14] almost feel like God is on the side especially because the guy was still there looking like he like we were wrong

[00:20:20] and and so for a while it felt like I was on the outside of the Christian circle like somehow there’s God’s family

[00:20:25] and there I am and so it really broke like it it hindered my ability to to to

[00:20:31] open my heart up to the Lord I didn’t trust his goodness in that season and that was at a deeper point and it

[00:20:38] brought back some of the other wounds and I wrote about that very deeply in fractured faith and then still standing

[00:20:43] as the other side of it where now I found you know I had to of course get some you know I I worked through it

[00:20:49] through with with i’ have at some point I ended up going to therapy which was just a helpful place to unpack a lot of

[00:20:54] the stuff the hurt that was in my heart but to really come face to face with this truth that I had what Billy Graham

[00:21:01] what you just said about Billy Graham I had to decide at some point do I believe God is good to Lena to me not just that

[00:21:08] he died for the world and I happened to be one in the world who accepted his grace and was going to heaven but is God

[00:21:14] good to me and I had to really either believe that and go on or not and by

[00:21:19] God’s grace I do believe more than ever now that’s wonderful well um so for

[00:21:26] those of you listening Liv living with power .org is uh Dr Lena’s um website

[00:21:32] and that’s a very helpful resource if you’re going through something that’s very traumatic in the sense that it’s

[00:21:39] really causing you to question your faith if it’s causing you to uh kind of step back and feel like well I’m not

[00:21:46] sure if God loves me um and many people go through this at some point in time uh

[00:21:54] and so tell us a little bit about what you have to offer on the site as far as how

[00:21:59] to encourage people and help people navigate through this what what you’re providing that you didn’t have yourself

[00:22:05] potentially well I mean the biggest thing I offer is a very honest telling of my story I think that’s probably

[00:22:12] always been the thing that God has given me the freedom because I’m I’m I’m in

[00:22:17] the place in my you know I think a lot of pastors and and Ministry leaders are

[00:22:23] given limited freedom to share what’s going on because of work obligations you know and I think people have talked

[00:22:29] about that on social media and so while there may be Church pain it’s hard to really navigate it to the extent that

[00:22:34] one wants to because you have a family to support and you’re you know and one of the freedoms that I have as a doctor

[00:22:40] who continues to work full-time so I’m self-supported I have the nonprofit of course with a ton of biblical Resources

[00:22:46] by the way many are very conducive to like we are our one of more popular ones is a free when you go to the website

[00:22:52] there’s a popup where if you sign up your email you get a daily free devotional cult power minute and it’s

[00:22:58] probably favorite people love that it’s very easy to follow morning you know we get it every morning and I I’m surprised

[00:23:04] that I’ve written them my assistant now posts them and I’m always like wow that was so good I really needed that but but

[00:23:10] but I think I think the biggest I think the biggest way that God can use me my

[00:23:16] is that I have the ability and by the way my my book on sexual sin is is equally blunt and I think being a

[00:23:23] background in the ER has given me the ability to speak about things in a very direct fashion

[00:23:29] and for people who are at that point of need Church hurt deep woundedness um

[00:23:34] sexual addiction you know sin whatever however you want to FR any addictive patterns um you will get a very truthful

[00:23:41] authentic open story of how where I’ve been and how God has gotten me back into

[00:23:50] what what the psalmist says he’s put my feet in a broad place and I think that’s the story share and I think that’s the

[00:23:56] so if you go on the site and you want a book and you can’t you know I always tell people if you’re like you can order them obviously on Amazon wherever or

[00:24:02] email us we’d love to send you a resource we uh it’s it’s so easy for us to stick one in the mail for you so

[00:24:08] please communicate with us there’s a contact page it comes straight to me and I’d love to send you a copy of the

[00:24:13] book that’s great and that’s livingwith power.org um so uh Lena you know I you

[00:24:20] you you said the goal is not to go from um you know I think you said your gifts

[00:24:26] to another gift um when you say something like that what is it that H

[00:24:33] how do we need to change our perspective in order to be able to navigate the

[00:24:39] inevitable trauma that’s coming our way um and I’m thinking of you know where

[00:24:45] Jesus says in this world you will have trouble right uh and it’s interesting to

[00:24:51] me too because it’s not as if these things aren’t in scripture they’re everywhere in scripture it’s like yeah

[00:24:56] every all the biblical character are going through very traumatic and painful things and it’s almost like how did I

[00:25:02] miss that right it’s like why did my expectation think that that wasn’t going to be a part of my life it’s just a

[00:25:08] story I read um about somebody else so so help our listeners with like uh if

[00:25:16] you could go back to your yourself in the past and counsel yourself on what

[00:25:21] was coming how would you change your your own perspective your younger self’s perspective I I think somehow also we’re

[00:25:29] given certain quiet messages I don’t again I don’t I think some of it is church culture but I I think some of it

[00:25:34] is American culture and Western culture but I think we we have the sense that when bad things happen it’s because I’ve

[00:25:40] done something bad like so like it’s all like I think there’s a sort of indirect sense of like you know what do I need to

[00:25:47] fix in my life and and I I really have come to understand like what what you say experience like you have to live

[00:25:53] through the pain in order to understand the outcome of the pain like I don’t think it’s you can’t escape it like it is the tool that God uses you can’t

[00:26:00] escape that suffering it is what shapes you and molds you and makes you and and and purifies you and when you talk to

[00:26:07] someone like let’s say Johnny ericon Tata who’s one of the most anointed women that you ever 75 she looks like

[00:26:12] she’s 60 she’s been living in a wheelchair she was 17 18 years old right she’s battled cancer she like I can’t

[00:26:18] even comprehend the joy in this woman but she’s had to live in pain and so I think this idea that oh I’m waiting for

[00:26:25] the painful season to go away or oh did I do something wrong I think we’ve got to change our perception of pain and

[00:26:31] really see it as the tool that God is using and so I think you know I think there’s just some messages like that

[00:26:36] like I would um you know I don’t know that like I don’t think the message should be oh I should I wish I could go

[00:26:42] back to my younger self and figure out a way to avoid the pain because to avoid the pain means to avoid the intimate

[00:26:48] maturity that comes from from from knowing the Lord one of the things that are right in fractured Faith a sentence

[00:26:54] that I’ve leaned back on again and again is we humans Christians and non-christians we value outcomes we’re

[00:27:01] so focused on the outcome we want to be out of it we want to be at the end you know we want the end of the race well

[00:27:08] God values dependence it’s dependence versus outcome it’s a different way of being and I think I no longer honestly

[00:27:15] like it’s not that I don’t pray for things to you know I don’t pray I used to be very focused in my prayer life on

[00:27:20] the end point God would you help me pass the test would you help me provide a husband for me would you please help

[00:27:26] this book sell copies would you please give you know it’s still tempting to be in that mindset but I find that when I’m

[00:27:32] focused in prayer on that mindset I leave prayer discouraged it don’t matter what the outcome is what I want is God

[00:27:40] help me to feel your presence here I I I I think that’s what I would remind right like the pain is going to come in one

[00:27:46] season or another it could be you know you can get married and then your spouse can have cancer or your kid that I just found out a friend of mine her grand

[00:27:52] child just passed away after being born a couple of months prematurely because of an undiagnosed genetic condition and

[00:27:58] made it like for a few days after the actual dud beautiful baby looking at her but had a metabolic disorder and ended

[00:28:04] up Suddenly dying like you don’t know where the pain can come from and while we don’t wish it on anyone I think this

[00:28:10] changed perception of why pain exists for the Christian it’s God God is not

[00:28:16] happy that there’s pain in our life but he will absolutely abundantly use it to

[00:28:22] shape us into people who adore him know him rely on him and see his goodness in

[00:28:27] every Bend of the road it will happen if we embrace it um we embrace it

[00:28:34] if we embrace it and and and if we going back full circle are willing to surrender

[00:28:42] understanding not understanding as I’m stupid I’m walking but understanding of the details like let God worry about the

[00:28:48] details so if you want peace you got to give up understanding I’m I’m processing this

[00:28:56] because um you know it with my students they’re seniors and I’m constantly

[00:29:02] talking to them about their Christianity and they’re wrestling with a lot of things you know what does the future

[00:29:08] hold how do I ter determine God’s will for my life is this relationship going to work out I’m afraid you know I’m

[00:29:15] afraid I’m G to fail there’s there’s so many things they’re wrestling with in their minds the unknown and I’m thinking

[00:29:21] to myself um okay so you know listening to your story and I uh it really

[00:29:27] resonates with me because I I’m seeing it everywhere I don’t know if it’s just this time in my life but I just see so

[00:29:34] many people going through so many things that I’m thinking okay so when I’m

[00:29:40] teaching these kids the message I’m sharing with them is that hey you know

[00:29:45] um God loves you but be prepared it’s not it’s the normaly is going through

[00:29:53] trials that is an a a gigantic part of life in fact I’d say it’s the majority

[00:30:00] of life it’s not a lack of trials that is the majority which is I think is our

[00:30:06] mental mindset that that life is going to consist of Trials here and there but

[00:30:12] the majority of it is going to be peaceful and happy and it’s actually the

[00:30:17] opp if I learn my lessons and we convince ourselves if I learn the lessons I’ll have no more trials that’s

[00:30:22] what we convince ourselves yeah and that’s just so interesting to me because the Bible doesn’t teach that at all um

[00:30:29] it it it it we don’t see it in almost any of the lives of the people in the Old Testament or the new test Kevin like

[00:30:35] I still I mean I’m afraid and I question like you know like the very those things that they feel it’s not that they go

[00:30:41] away it’s that we like I’m quicker at reacting like even in the last three

[00:30:46] years I’ve noticed and and honestly I I mean I’m not I don’t hide the fact like different people like you know because

[00:30:52] of the cir like I’m single and I wasn’t Church hurt so I go to church Sundays

[00:30:58] but it’s been a hard walk the church walk has been hard for me of really I’ve

[00:31:03] spoken at churches but it’s been a hard walk for me to be in community like it’s been it’s so I’m I’m I’m I’m growing in

[00:31:10] that but so I’ve had to use a therapist as a counselor as a as a way to unfold

[00:31:15] that I’m not ashamed of it you don’t need that to go to to get healing but it’s been a journey for me because

[00:31:21] practicality of 2024 like you know that’s been a place where I’ve been able to unpack some of this stuff and and and

[00:31:28] what I’ve noticed is my you know it’s almost like resetting your phone my reset time is faster to you know that’s

[00:31:34] where I’ve grown it’s not that I don’t fear it’s not that I wonder fomo all the stuff that if I make this decision am I

[00:31:40] gonna miss out on that if I do the you know all the things that we play in our mind it’s that I can like by God’s grace

[00:31:46] I’m able to slow down that train get myself back into the word and and remember you know and stop and say who’s

[00:31:53] in control of this what what am I fearing here and a lot of it is we fear loss of control and it’s and and we feel

[00:31:59] like we’ve got to control it all and I think you know even you know even financially you know I’m a doctor I’m

[00:32:05] settled I’ll get a patient who gets mad and I go oh my gosh am I gonna lose my job and it’s so stupid in a way you can’t think about it of course you’re

[00:32:10] not gonna lose your job if a patient’s mad at you but that fear can creep up on you so unexpected and and then you got

[00:32:16] to stop yourself in the middle of the day between patients and remember at the heart of this is who’s in charge of my

[00:32:23] job my job I mean I could I could get in a car accident and lose my vision and I can’t see patience anymore you like

[00:32:28] anything oh I was exercising three weeks ago and I the lady who my trainer was like put the banner I pulled real hard

[00:32:35] no I pulled real hard the band went up and hit my eye I got a traumatic iritis out of it I could have gone blind it was

[00:32:40] horrible I’ve had to put these drops in my eyes every day now when I’m like by God’s grace I can see because I could

[00:32:46] have been blinded it was such a high impact and I think you know things like that could happen we don’t even think about all the bad things that could

[00:32:52] happen but it’s a slowing your mind to remember that ultimately there is a God who loves you who’s good who’s in

[00:32:58] control of your life it’s not it’s not that complicated but that’s where what people say it all happens the battle is

[00:33:05] in your mind it’s true if you can which is why you need to form your mind that’s why we read the Bible that’s why we

[00:33:10] study the B that’s why we meditate it’s not just enough now to read the Bible I got to meditate on the Bible I have to have it take frot in my life I want to

[00:33:17] talk about it I want to you know that’s the Old Testament that talked about putting the verses on your forehead it wasn’t that you need to hang them on

[00:33:23] your forehead it’s that you just need to injust them and be in so I love the the

[00:33:29] relationships that I have and my sister my assistant you know we talk about godone and such you know these are the relationships that are going to that’s

[00:33:35] where I would focus on the young adults is get friends who do that for you who push you who remind you who hold your

[00:33:42] arms up I wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t for Christian Community and I’m grateful for people who love the

[00:33:48] Lord yeah and people that can consistently remind you of those truths in Scripture that you need to hear over

[00:33:54] and over again uh we all need that um because like you’re saying we’re plagued

[00:33:59] by fears and worries um concerns about you know not only ourselves but the

[00:34:05] people around us that we care about and it can be overwhelming if you don’t rely on the Lord It’s funny because I had

[00:34:11] this one atheist guy who told me that um he was he he was going through a trial

[00:34:18] and he didn’t think he was going to make it out of the trial it was so hard what he was going through that he felt like

[00:34:23] I’m I’m not gonna make it I’m not going to mentally make it through this and he

[00:34:28] said he got through it and he was so relieved but then a few years later he saw ahead of time the same trial coming

[00:34:35] a similar trial to what he had just gone through and he said he was so scared of going through it alone again that he

[00:34:42] turned his life over to Christ purely because he thought I can’t do this again

[00:34:49] I won’t make it and so he was like whatever I believe in you that’s awesome

[00:34:54] that’s really good yeah and I and I think it’s true like uh you you have to

[00:35:00] and if you don’t I’m just going to read your quote again um that you you shared

[00:35:05] with us from um your friend uh in order to gain in peace you must give up

[00:35:11] understanding um and for for those of you listening I I think you should

[00:35:17] really meditate on that and that’s scriptural that’s Proverbs 35 and 6 trust in the Lord with all your heart Le

[00:35:23] not on your own understanding and uh you at some point you just have to let go

[00:35:28] and say okay I’m not going to understand every single thing God is doing in my life I’m not going to understand why it

[00:35:34] happened I can’t keep putting this condition on trusting God that he has to

[00:35:40] give me answers because ultimately that’s going to drive you insane you you can’t have a vibrant faith and

[00:35:47] constantly have these conditions on God you have to at some point say I’m committing I’m now committing um God has

[00:35:53] given me enough to know that he is reliable and trustworthy and I’m going to stop asking why and

[00:36:01] start just trusting which um is difficult but

[00:36:06] um again that’s what these books are about that you wrote you wrote that this is your own uh path and what you’ve

[00:36:13] learned through that going through that so um following uh Jesus even when it

[00:36:19] hurts um and I think too that this message is

[00:36:24] a message that needs to be shared all over the place because part of the problem that we’ve been discussing is

[00:36:31] that when you set up false expectations it makes the fall 10 times harder um

[00:36:37] when you don’t actually

[00:36:42] um when you don’t actually um have an accurate

[00:36:48] understanding of scripture and what it teaches which is incredible I mean the expectation issue I I talk a lot about

[00:36:55] that again it comes up in my writings a lot because I I really think that’s it it’s that you we cue scripture a little

[00:37:02] so you know we say oh well God talks about you know there’s so many Psalms about expectations but it’s expectations

[00:37:08] in him it’s expectations from him it’s the switching the dial on your

[00:37:14] expectations from the outcomes to Christ and it’s a small thing but a huge thing

[00:37:19] and I mean I think that’s you know really it’s retraining yourself to expect the right things and uh and and

[00:37:27] it’s the difference between a life that is miserable and a and a life that is joyful and the Christian you know that’s

[00:37:33] the gift we have we have joy and I I you know I can tell you with confidence like and again I’ve had to like the Lord has

[00:37:39] had it’s been a an exercise to get here like I don’t think it’s come easy but I can say I I don’t think I’ve had the

[00:37:46] sense of peace and joy in Christ that I have now ever and so you know they say

[00:37:52] you know people always say oh it’s going be worth it but it’s true it is worth it because I I think it’s a different

[00:37:57] understanding of Christ than I had when I was in my 20s I and I don’t think it was like I think I meant well like I

[00:38:03] don’t think it was and and that’s why I think you just have to let God you have to trust God to move in people’s hearts

[00:38:09] I don’t I no longer panic when I see you know people who you know freak out oh did you you know they’re questioning or

[00:38:14] they’re deconstructed or just trust let God do God’s thing you’d be surprised how much he can do with or without us

[00:38:19] but just keep praying prayer prayer is so powerful like pray for the people in your life who who are hurting and I

[00:38:24] think I think the that’s a I mean just I think that there’s such fruit in prayer too and I think that’s a journey that

[00:38:31] I’m on now I’m learning to pray for you know I feel like for the first time in my Christian life so not that I didn’t

[00:38:37] pray before I just don’t know that I really prayed before and there’s a difference in yeah in that yeah it’s

[00:38:43] amazing how much we can learn you you feel like oh wow I really finally have arrived and I understand this now and

[00:38:49] then all of a sudden you’re like whoa wait a second oh think so much more here yeah um I wanted to read a scripture too

[00:38:56] um for those of you listening there there’s a a really interesting story in John chapter um John chapter 6 and I I

[00:39:06] found it so amazing but it really I think speaks to what we’ve been talking about where um Jesus

[00:39:14] multiplies the the bread and the fishes of the little boy um

[00:39:20] and Jesus feeds everybody and then the crowds are following him and

[00:39:27] and he says um see if I can find it here he says it

[00:39:35] says the next day the crowd that had remained on the side of the sea realized that only one boat had been there um so

[00:39:41] he Jesus says truly truly I tell you it is not because you saw these signs that you were looking for but because you ate the Loaves and had your

[00:39:48] fill um and he’s he’s telling them you’re not following me because you want

[00:39:55] to know the truth or you want what right it’s because you had some food and

[00:40:00] they’re like yeah pretty much that’s right and then he basically um forces everybody to abandon

[00:40:11] him by saying stuff like if you want to follow me you have to hate your mother and father and if you want to follow me

[00:40:18] you got to pick up your cross and die every day you know and the disciples are like what the heck what are you talking about man you’re driving everybody away

[00:40:26] Jesus and and everybody’s running away and then the and then he turns to the disciples and says will you also leave

[00:40:33] me and you know um the disciples respond where will we go you have the words of

[00:40:39] life and that resonates so much that um

[00:40:44] we are not following God because of what he gives us we’re following him because

[00:40:50] he’s Gooden and there is no other source of goodness it’s all that exists there’s

[00:40:56] literally nowhere to go um and that’s so deep that that story I know I love I

[00:41:02] love that section I don’t know if you you probably know that Kevin because you’re a Bible teacher but like John 666 you know 666

[00:41:09] like after this many of the disciples turned back and no longer walked with him that’s that verse oh wow seen that

[00:41:16] that’s interesting I’m sure no I’ve never I’ve never noticed that before wow the number

[00:41:22] of man right the number of man material uh desires right

[00:41:27] yep how Wild well uh Lena um we’re right about out of time here I just I’ve

[00:41:33] really enjoyed chatting with you and uh it’s been a a huge pleasure likewise man

[00:41:39] this is good I love God and his word and just to have a chance to share that as a gift yeah and I think your message is

[00:41:45] such a valuable one that uh more and more people it you know it’s so nuanced it’s such a

[00:41:51] slight adjustment to the way you think and the way you talk and the way you

[00:41:57] understand understand but it’s one of those adjustments that just changes everything and uh your whole perspective

[00:42:04] on life so it’s thank you for your books and for your ministry because I think it’s going to help a lot of people so

[00:42:10] thank you and I’m sure it already has um for

[00:42:16] those of you who who are listening again uh my my guest is uh Dr Lena

[00:42:22] abujamra and um she has a wonderful Ministry that you can um look up her

[00:42:28] resources that is um livingwith power.org um and she’s also a very

[00:42:36] gifted speaker and Communicator if you’d like to have her out to your church or your event um she’s got so much uh

[00:42:44] passion and enthusiasm for Christ a huge blessing um I am having some other

[00:42:50] guests come up on my show uh soon that you’re really going to enjoy um with some other new books that have come out

[00:42:56] um myself have a book coming out uh actually next week it’s called handcuffed to an atheist and um it is a

[00:43:03] book about apologetics and um the evidence for the truth of the Bible and uh so you’ll be able to uh check that

[00:43:09] out um soon next week too if you’re interested thanks a lot for being here and I hope you guys have a fantastic

[00:43:16] evening and um are just blessed and walking with the Lord and getting to know him better uh it’s been great

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[00:44:27] 66 hi this is Jason Hall president of Team hom loans a branch of synergy1

[00:44:32] lending I just want to take this opportunity to thank Kevin Conover for the profound impact he’s had on mine and

[00:44:38] my wife’s spiritual life as well as being an incredible teacher while our kids were his students his knowledge and

[00:44:43] passion have taught us all how important it is to be Defenders of our faith it’s our honor and privilege to support Kevin

[00:44:50] and his show it is our sincere hope and prayer that you will continue to learn to be Defenders of your faith through

[00:44:55] Kevin’s radio show and through his Ed educate for Life teachings thank you Kevin from the hall family and team Home

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