Was Peter the First Pope of the Catholic Church? With Eann Tang

[00:00:00] thanks for thanks a lot for being here this evening my name is Kevin con and I’m your host on educate for Life radio

[00:00:06] we’re broadcasting down here in Southern California on kpra 1210 a.m. and also on

[00:00:11] FM 106.1 in North County and of course we’re um on podcast all over um all over

[00:00:17] the place so you can check us out on um all the different podcast platforms and

[00:00:23] uh my guest today um is Ian tang and um I he’s actually a junior at the

[00:00:30] University of Illinois and uh he studies political science there he’s a Leadership Institute campus Ambassador

[00:00:36] and turning point USA chapter president on his college campus he grew up in Taiwan but went to American accredited

[00:00:43] international schools for most of his life which is where he began to realize the liberal biases in his high school as

[00:00:48] he became a conservative and now he’s making an impact um pushing back against a lot of the ideas uh liberal ideas that

[00:00:55] he disagrees with but we’re not going to be talking about that tonight although that’s a really interesting subject in and itself um we’re actually going to be

[00:01:02] talking about the difference between Catholicism some of the differences between Catholicism and Protestant Christianity and specifically we’re

[00:01:09] going to talk a little bit about Peter and the pope and um and also uh just to

[00:01:15] throw it out there he is the the way the way I met Ian is uh he is the older

[00:01:20] brother of one of my students that just graduated from Christian High School here in elcome California and Maggie so

[00:01:27] shout out to Maggie and uh Ian it’s great to have you on today yeah thank

[00:01:32] you again Kevin thank you for giving me this platform to share my faith as a recent Catholic convert and yeah I’m

[00:01:40] excited for the discussion we’re gonna have yeah me too I am too I I always enjoy discussing things with people that

[00:01:46] uh we have different perspectives or or uh different views and uh especially among Catholics and Christians I think

[00:01:52] it’s always good to have a good con conversation uh we I actually just had a Catholic e Exorcist on the show last

[00:01:58] week um Vincent Lambert which was very interesting and um and so and we’ve got

[00:02:04] some Catholics coming up on the show um in a couple weeks too who are going to be talking about um xgay visibility day

[00:02:11] which is going to be very interesting uh but Ian so why don’t we start off with just share with with us uh with our

[00:02:18] listeners and with myself um how long ago did you join uh the Catholic church

[00:02:24] and what caused you to make that decision right um so

[00:02:30] yeah like my sister went to um your school right which is a Protestant Evangelical school so my family

[00:02:37] background was Evangelical even though my mom’s a little Pentecostal but my family background we’ve been I’ve been

[00:02:43] Christian my whole life I’ve been Evangelical Christian but um Christianity has always been like the

[00:02:50] faith of my parents until really as I entered College I started going to church and I started just like you

[00:02:57] mentioned I got involved in a lot of the conservative politics and then I realized the roots of all my um

[00:03:04] conservative beliefs actually comes from religion comes from these judeo Christian values so I really became a

[00:03:11] lot more religious in in college especially especially this past year and

[00:03:17] then I happen to have a couple Catholic friends and then initially I was like

[00:03:22] why why do you guys have such weird beliefs on D stuff and then I like to

[00:03:28] quote um I forgot I forgot who said it but um but the co says that t be kathle

[00:03:35] is to be a student of History so as I as I started researching church history

[00:03:41] eventually I see myself moving away from these um newer form of Evangelical

[00:03:46] protestantism and then I started going to a Lutheran church and then I started digging deeper in history and over time

[00:03:55] I realized that um being Catholic is an irresistible position

[00:04:00] so this past Easter visual in um I think March the last day of March I I joined a

[00:04:07] Roman Catholic Church okay um so um you wanted to talk

[00:04:14] specifically about the role of the Apostle Peter as the first pope um why

[00:04:20] is that I’m sorry oh no no I was just I was I was just saying yes yeah so why is

[00:04:26] that why is that such a significant issue for you what why is that such a a you know key argument in your position

[00:04:34] well it’s um definitely one of the main Catholics like catholic’s talking point

[00:04:41] that c and catholic’s issue that converted me from being a Evangelical Protestant and then I think this might

[00:04:49] be the most essential Doctrine for Catholicism because you can believe in

[00:04:54] any other catholic’s teaching and not be Catholics for example you can believe in

[00:04:59] transubstantiation of Eucharist not be Catholics you can believe in indulgences and not be Catholic but the papacy

[00:05:06] especially Peter’s papacy as the first pope is it’s the essence of being

[00:05:13] Catholic itself it’s the essence of really submitting to the Roman pontiff

[00:05:18] and that’s why I think this is the most important issue when it comes to

[00:05:25] Catholicism okay and so what is your argument for you know give your argument you’re trying to persuade me maybe

[00:05:31] you’re trying to persuade your listeners um your friends that uh that Peter was

[00:05:37] the first pope what what would the argument be right um so yeah so when it comes to

[00:05:45] the papacy there are three criterias of it that makes it really important so

[00:05:50] first is supremacy and then infallibility and

[00:05:56] secession and I’ll read out the the the catechism the catechisms definition on

[00:06:03] on Supremacy and infallibility and if we can find that in the Bible then that

[00:06:08] will prove Peter’s papacy and then I’ll address it first from scripture then I’ll discuss it from a historical

[00:06:14] perspective so from the Catholic the catechism of Catholic Church paragraph

[00:06:20] 883 um this is on Supremacy it says that sorry 882 the pope Bishop of Rome and

[00:06:28] Peter success is the Perpetual invisible source and foundation of the unity both of the

[00:06:35] Bishops and of the whole company of the faithful for the for the Roman pontiff

[00:06:41] by reason of his office as Vicor of Christ and as pastor of the entire church has full Supreme and Universal

[00:06:47] power over the whole church a power which he can always exercise un hinder

[00:06:54] and here’s infallibility um from paragraph 889 for

[00:06:59] from the catechism of Catholic church so here it says that sorry 891 the Roman

[00:07:06] pontiff head of the College of Bishops enjoyed this infallibility in virtue of his office when as Supreme pastor and

[00:07:12] teacher of all the faithful who confirms his brethren in the faith he proclaims

[00:07:17] by definitive Act of Doctrine pertaining to Faith or morals the infallibility

[00:07:23] promised to the church is also present in the body of Bishops when together with Peter successor they exercised the

[00:07:29] Supreme suem miserium Above All In in an ecumenical council when the church

[00:07:34] through its Supreme magisterium proposes a Doctrine for belief as being divinely revealed and as the teaching of Christ

[00:07:41] the the definitions must be adhered to with The Obedience of Faith the infallibility extends as far as the

[00:07:48] deposit of divine revelation itself so the first the first Bible verse I’m I’m

[00:07:55] going to get into is um is the verse Catholics talk about all the time

[00:08:00] Matthew 16:18 so here Jesus Jesus

[00:08:05] brought Peter and Peter to um this place called cesaria Philippi right and I’ll

[00:08:12] and I will read the verse first so here it says it begins vers verse 17 so

[00:08:19] Matthew 161 17-9 then Jesus said to him and reply blessed are you Simon son of

[00:08:25] Jonah for Flesh and Blood hath not revealed this to you but my heavenly father and I say to you you are Peter

[00:08:32] and on this rock I will build my church and the gates of Neo or in other translation the Gates of Hell will not

[00:08:39] Prevail against it I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven whatever you bind on Earth shall be bound in

[00:08:45] heaven and whatever you lose on Earth shall be loose in heaven so to set the context for this verse um we have to

[00:08:52] recognize that the original New Testament gospel wasn’t written in English It Was Written in

[00:08:58] Greek right and and so here says you are Peter and

[00:09:03] on this rock I will build my church we all know that in the Bible when God renamed someone it has a significant

[00:09:10] meaning behind behind his new name and also his mission that he he’s going to

[00:09:16] um he’s going to go on he fulfills God’s um God’s um role for him so for example

[00:09:23] God changed Abraham’s name from Abram to Abraham Abram meaning father and Abraham

[00:09:29] meaning father of all Nations so here he changed Peter’s name initially from

[00:09:35] Simon to Peter and Peter in Greek means

[00:09:40] petrol petrol which means rock or we can go back to um Aramaic which is the

[00:09:48] language Jesus spoken Aramaic um Peter and Aramaic means Kea

[00:09:54] so that’s why in um in Galatians or in some other in some other

[00:10:00] um books of the Bible um Peter Peter’s name was referred to as sephus sephus

[00:10:07] which is the transliteration of of the aramic work Kea so here g go Jesus is

[00:10:14] saying to Peter you are Brock and on this rock I will build my church and and

[00:10:20] the Gates of Hell shall not Prevail against it in verse 19 is where it is the most important because it says that

[00:10:26] I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven and whatever you bind on Earth shall be

[00:10:31] bound in heaven and whatever you lose on Earth shall be loose in heaven and then

[00:10:36] Jesus just isn’t isn’t isn’t just Jesus isn’t just saying this um out of context

[00:10:42] at all because if you actually go back to the old test where God told

[00:10:48] eliakim that he will give him the keys to the keys to the kingdom of David and

[00:10:54] what he and it’s it’s in Isaiah Isaiah CH 22 verse 3 and and God told

[00:11:01] eliakim that when when he opens no one will close and when he closes no one

[00:11:08] will open so it’s no surprise that Jesus is literally using the same language

[00:11:13] when he’s conferring when he’s giving the keys to the kingdom of heaven to um Peter that um whatever you bind on Earth

[00:11:20] shall be bound in heaven and whatever you lose on Earth shall be lose in heaven and then it’s very important to note that the location of the place so

[00:11:28] Jesus brought Peter to this place in North in Israel I think called cesaria

[00:11:34] Philippi where where the whole city it’s a huge Rock and On Top of the Rock are

[00:11:41] tempos to um for the Pagan God pan and also to Julius Caesar so here Jesus is

[00:11:48] clearly bringing his um his chief disciple Peter showing him that here’s

[00:11:54] the rock that the that the the the Pagan worshipper dedicated to their God but

[00:12:01] here I’m telling you that you are now the rock that I will build my church on

[00:12:07] and that you have this Authority um you have this Authority which has been revealed from my heavenly

[00:12:13] father um yeah that is where I’ll stop first let me know if you have yeah so so

[00:12:20] um you know what I would say to that is that and and the product the Protestant position on that particular scripture

[00:12:25] you’re referencing Matthew um 1618 Matthew 16 uh 171 1819 there um

[00:12:36] basically is that what what Jesus is saying is not that he’s going to build his church although right obviously

[00:12:43] Peter was very significant in the spread of the Gospel um he was very close with Christ and those are all really

[00:12:49] important he was very influential but he wasn’t building his church on a particular person he was he

[00:12:55] was building a church on the Declaration that Peter made that Jesus was the Incarnation right

[00:13:03] that he was the Messiah um and Jesus says blessed are you Simon son of Jonah

[00:13:09] Jonah for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood but my by my Father in heaven and I tell you that you are Peter

[00:13:15] and on this rock I will build my church um so the rock that he’s building the church on is not Peter per se it is the

[00:13:24] Declaration that Peter made which is that Jesus is the Christ um and that’s the that’s the Protestant View and along

[00:13:31] those same lines um it’s interesting because the word Pope right

[00:13:40] originally many priests were were referred to as Pope originally it was a common term it means Papa or father

[00:13:47] right because but but um and so many people were called that uh but in

[00:13:54] Matthew chapter 23:9 Jesus specifically says call no man your father

[00:13:59] because this wasn’t just a title of you know this was not a biological title among the the spiritual leaders at the

[00:14:06] time uh this was I have authority over you so meaning uh there under the Jews

[00:14:13] there truly was an intermediary between the people and God they had to go to a

[00:14:18] priest this was what you had to do but when Jesus dies on the cross it’s it he

[00:14:25] says I am the high priest you don’t go to anybody but me and that’s why the curtain was split in two right when at

[00:14:31] at the uh death of Christ um what God did was he offered a sacrifice that was

[00:14:38] once and for all that no now you need no more sacrifices um you don’t need a priest to offer a sacrifice for you and

[00:14:45] so these people that were called fathers Jesus is very specifically saying there is no father except one in

[00:14:52] heaven you do not need to use that term anymore um it’s not appropriate because

[00:14:57] we’re all on a level playing field now and that was a very very significant thing I mean that’s literally what the

[00:15:04] New Covenant is and so from a Protestant perspective it is not biblical to call

[00:15:11] anybody give anybody authority over you in that sense um as a some sort of an

[00:15:19] intermediary between you and God and that’s what the Catholic church has done uh historically is they have priests who

[00:15:27] you go to to confess to and who you call Father for those reasons um because they

[00:15:33] have access to God in a way that you don’t necessarily have access and for a

[00:15:39] Protestant that seems very unbiblical um and regarding you know the

[00:15:45] word Rock um many people are called rocks if you look at First Peter

[00:15:52] 2:5 uh Peter actually says that we are living stones right Petros

[00:15:59] and so he references all of us as stones but Jesus is called the Cornerstone so he is what the church is

[00:16:06] built on not um not Peter and that uh

[00:16:11] makes sense when you look at what Peter said because Peter very specifically um

[00:16:17] references Christ as the Messiah and so for me personally I have

[00:16:25] I have a lot of difficulty with uh anybody being given the title

[00:16:32] Pope because it is a Spiritual Authority position it’s a human who’s having

[00:16:37] Spiritual Authority over other humans rather than what Christ did which was grant us direct access to God through

[00:16:48] Christ um yeah can I can I respond yeah absolutely yeah so um yeah first thing

[00:16:55] you brought up is about like Peter’s confession being a rock right um that is also actually the Catholic

[00:17:02] position as well um let me read it from the catechism of the Catholic church so Christ The Living Stone does assure his

[00:17:09] church bill on Peter of victory over the powers of death because of the faith he confessed Peter will remain the

[00:17:16] unshakable rock of the church his mission will be to keep this Faith from every laps and to strengthen his

[00:17:22] brothers in it so we also recognize that the rock is not just Peter himself it’s

[00:17:28] also his confession but the problem we have is that the problem we have um with

[00:17:34] the pr in position is that you cannot separate the two and then um and also

[00:17:39] you brought Matthew 22 ver9 call no man your father right yeah um in this in

[00:17:44] literally the first half of the same verse that verse also tells you that call no a man Master call no man teacher

[00:17:52] so but we still call like our teacher teacher right like especially Mr Conover

[00:17:57] you’re you’re a teacher right so very specifically um I want to make this very

[00:18:03] clear that when we when we call um the pope or the priest father we are in no

[00:18:11] way saying that they are replacing the heavenly father we are in no way saying that they are they

[00:18:18] are um they are in in any way a substitute

[00:18:24] to our access to God but um but just like just like you would

[00:18:32] call people teacher or you still call your own dad father um the reason why we call these people a father because they

[00:18:40] like unlike the Protestant world where in C in the Catholic Church you have to stay celibate to be ordained right and

[00:18:46] then so these people who have um basically sacrificed them themselves for

[00:18:51] the church we see them as a sort of a spiritual guidance a spiritual father or

[00:18:57] like a spiritual Pastor so that’s why that’s what we called him um f and then

[00:19:04] and then in um and Luke actually yeah here here’s the verse that I would like

[00:19:09] to bring up so during the last supper from Luke 20 Luke

[00:19:16] 22 um yeah Luke 22 verse

[00:19:23] 31 basically in in whole Luke 22 the the the disciples they were discussing

[00:19:29] themselves about like who’s the greatest among them right and then what what did

[00:19:35] Jesus say Jesus said let let the greatest among you be the least among you and also um let the greatest among

[00:19:42] you be the one who serve so actually um the pope not

[00:19:49] just doesn’t just mean father like for for a period of time the pope was also referred to as the Servants of the

[00:19:57] Servants of God so the hierarchy that um Catholics recognize with the magisterium

[00:20:02] with the Pope with the bishop of Rome with the College of Bishops is not like a dictatorship type type of thing we

[00:20:09] recognize this um hierle structure as a structure established by

[00:20:15] God that that um that is aim at serving Christians so they’re not they’re not

[00:20:22] some dictators that we we have to C out to but they are the servants established

[00:20:28] by God so so you mentioned that Jesus is the Cornerstone like Catholics absolutely we

[00:20:35] absolutely recognize that because if today the church is just on Peter without Jesus is the Cornerstone then

[00:20:40] there will be no church and in fact the the Catholic church then will become a pagan church as many anti- Catholics

[00:20:48] would call it um so I just want to make this very clear that when we call Peter the

[00:20:54] Brock um we are in no way saying that he is the Cornerstone now and we are and Noah saying that he is a replacement for

[00:21:02] Christ um we are just using what Jesus literally said when he changed Peter’s

[00:21:08] name and when he when Jesus gave him specifically to no but no one else the keys to the kingdom of heaven and the

[00:21:15] power to buy and lose which was later conferred to all the other um Apostles

[00:21:21] as well and yeah here’s where I’ll I’ll stop okay so so so um I I mean I respect

[00:21:31] that in the sense that uh it’s it’s wonderful that and and I know many many

[00:21:36] wonderful Catholics and who are doing wonderful things and very much are very servant oriented no doubt about it um so

[00:21:45] I think that’s F fantastic um and obviously um many

[00:21:51] priests have dedicated their life completely to serving the lord and to serving others uh which is wonderful um

[00:21:59] so I agree on that part uh the difficulty I have personally with

[00:22:05] calling Peter a pope or calling uh any other priest or calling somebody a pope

[00:22:13] or even father is um that specifically the pope of the

[00:22:19] Roman Catholic Church uh when he’s speaking you know in particular in

[00:22:26] authority over the church that his his word is considered infallible and this is this to me seems

[00:22:35] um contrary to what scripture teaches because the scripture when we’re called to evaluate what when something is true

[00:22:42] or not because because uh Paul says that there’s going to be wolves that come into the church he says hey watch out

[00:22:47] they’re going to come in and they’re going to they’re going to deceive you and many people are going to fall away

[00:22:53] and when he addresses how how do you deal with that how do you deal with the fact that there are going to be people

[00:22:58] come in they look like a sheep they look like a follower of Christ but in fact they’re a wolf in sheep’s clothing he

[00:23:05] specifically says um that what your your

[00:23:10] um your standard what you’re evaluating the teachings of others by is

[00:23:17] scripture that’s what’s infallible and so you have a bit of a problem now because if for some reason somebody were

[00:23:24] were to say something contrary to scripture then you end up not being able

[00:23:29] to decide who is correct right if if a pope historically is able to speak with

[00:23:35] the same Authority that scripture speaks um then you have a real difficulty

[00:23:40] because now you don’t know okay well this has the same Authority as the Bible

[00:23:45] therefore how do I know which is right when there seems to be a conflict um and

[00:23:52] and we can even say that hypothetically um if somebody were to say something uh uh uh and there have been

[00:24:00] many controversial claims made by popes historically that people have said whoa

[00:24:05] that that is not biblical and so then they said well this is not correct

[00:24:10] because it is not what’s outlined in scripture and so for a Protestant and

[00:24:16] this is part of the Protestant Reformation this is part of what what what Martin Luther was upset about was

[00:24:22] that um the scripture takes precedence over anything that a pope would say regardless of whether he speak

[00:24:29] uh from a position of infallibility or not um because ultimately the only one who is

[00:24:35] infallible is Jesus Christ and the scriptures that’s the Protestant

[00:24:40] Viewpoint um and so I’ll let you respond to that but I had one other question too

[00:24:45] for you to respond to at the same time which is you’re saying um when Jesus said call

[00:24:52] no man your father that you’re saying that that is not um mean what what I’m

[00:25:00] saying it means which is do not speak as in somebody has authority over you

[00:25:05] spiritually um if if it doesn’t mean that then in your mind what was Jesus

[00:25:10] trying to say when he said call no man your father call call no man your teacher call no man your master because

[00:25:16] he obviously meant something by it um I’ll agree with you that he didn’t mean

[00:25:22] uh like my students can’t call me their teacher um but I believe what he’s

[00:25:27] saying is something greater than that because that’s how people were responding to the the religious leaders

[00:25:34] of their time and I believe that same thing is applicable regardless whether it’s the Protestant church or the

[00:25:40] Catholic church that Jesus has something in mind when he says call no man your master call no man your teacher and call

[00:25:47] no man your father there is something he’s referring to and and my question to

[00:25:52] you would be what is it he’s referring to you to if he’s not referring to what I said does that make sense what I’m

[00:25:59] saying yeah yeah yeah so um yeah let me respond to the first point um yeah I

[00:26:05] want to point out first and so you mentioned about infallibility and also solor which is the whole divide between

[00:26:12] Catholics and Protestants and mentioned that only Jesus is infallible right and

[00:26:17] I want to yeah Catholics do recognize this as well so from catechism of

[00:26:22] Catholic Church paragraph 889 where it says in order to preserve the church in the pure of the faith handed on by the

[00:26:30] apostles Christ who is the truth W he Comfort on her a share in his own

[00:26:37] infallibility so infallibility comes from no one else just like we believe that um the ability to forgive comes

[00:26:44] from no one else or just like when a Protestant pray for someone and someone was healed the healing power does not

[00:26:49] come from the Protestant who pray but it comes from God himself so you mentioned about paper infallibility um just a

[00:26:56] quick question Kevin do you know how many times papal infallibility has been used in church history I don’t I imagine

[00:27:03] it’s not that that often how do you know how many right it’s actually two so yeah

[00:27:09] I want to make this very clear papal infallibility does not mean whatever the Pope says is correct whatever he teaches

[00:27:15] is correct it only applies to here it says a definitive a definitive a

[00:27:21] definitive act a Doctrine pertaining to Faith or morals so it only applies to

[00:27:27] cases where the church is has a huge divide on where even the Bishops can agree that’s when that’s when paper

[00:27:34] infallibility comes in as like the that’s like the final Authority like that’s like the final say when the whole

[00:27:41] Bishop is um divided and then in the two times Pap infall Pap infallibility has

[00:27:47] used all every Bishop in the world except one has has has agreed with the

[00:27:53] Pope’s decision so paper infallibility is not something just like I mentioned before not some sort of

[00:27:59] authoritative dictatorship by the pope but paper infallibility is

[00:28:05] something um that God GI that um God

[00:28:11] give Peter successor that when it comes to huge divide in the church let’s say

[00:28:16] when when the church can’t even um decide on whether Jesus has one nature or two Natures or Jesus say one wheel or

[00:28:23] two Wills these really um important doctrines that pertain pertains to Faith or moral then that’s

[00:28:31] when paper infallibility comes in and you also mentioned about Sol scor right

[00:28:37] so the thing with solar scriptor um I want to make it very clear that the according to the catechism of the

[00:28:42] Catholic Church as well the magisterium we never um the the magisterium is never

[00:28:48] an authority over scripture or is never something that override scripture in fact in the catechism of the Catholic

[00:28:55] Church it describes the magisterium as the servant of scripture so um you

[00:29:00] mentioned Sol scriptor with scripture being the ultimate source right but the thing is that if you look at

[00:29:08] history The Church actually comes before the scripture well like scriptures

[00:29:14] scriptures like Old Testament scriptures scriptures were were still being written over time right but the compilation of

[00:29:19] the Bible actually comes 300 years after after Jesus established his church and

[00:29:26] so I’m I’m not saying scripture is not important in any sort of ways what I am saying is that magest is their servant

[00:29:32] in scripture and scripture we as Catholics we recognize sacred tradition

[00:29:38] in scriptures at the same time and the the Bible that has been given to us by

[00:29:44] the church we is actually the greatest product of this sacred tradition

[00:29:51] and and um and in the Bible actually the Bible was actually against Sol scriptor

[00:29:57] if you go go to 2 Thessalonians 2:15 where um Pope said it Paul said it

[00:30:03] very specifically that whole fast to the Traditions that have been given to you

[00:30:09] um through through mouth or through letters or through scriptures and then

[00:30:16] um yeah one more thing about pable infallibility is that it’s actually it

[00:30:21] has actually been showing in the Bible when you go to the counil of Jerusalem which is in Acts

[00:30:26] 15 um starting from verse 7 so after a long period of debate Peter stood up to

[00:30:32] address them Brethren he saidou are well aware that in the early days God made his choice among you that it will be

[00:30:38] through my mouth that through my mouth that the Gentiles will hear the message of the gospel and become Believers and

[00:30:46] onto verse 12 this is where James started saying this so on hearing this

[00:30:51] the whole Assembly felt silent so um we have to know that in Acts 15 is the

[00:30:58] counsil of Jerusalem they’re discussing um salvation for the Gentiles right and Paul and Barnabas has this huge abide

[00:31:04] but after Peter spoke the whole assembly fell silence and in verse 13 after they

[00:31:11] have finished speaking James responded read and listen to me Simon has related

[00:31:16] how God first looked favorably upon the Gentiles and took from among them a

[00:31:22] people for his name and yeah so here here we are seeing

[00:31:29] Peter speaking definitively on the issue on the issue of um the salvation for Gentiles he is

[00:31:36] speaking infallibly here because if he’s not speaking infallibly here then then

[00:31:42] the huge divide in the church would would continue on and um yeah and to

[00:31:48] answer answer your question on my view of Matthew 229 um yeah I I’ll admit

[00:31:54] first that I haven’t done so much research on it but um just like what it said the when we call someone father

[00:32:02] just like we call our de father we don’t we in no way are saying that we are replacing Christ Christ by um some other

[00:32:10] people who are H in us but we do have to recognize that some people are called

[00:32:16] teacher some people are called father I don’t think anyone’s called Master anymore but um we do have to recognize

[00:32:23] that when when um when we call people teacher when we call people father We

[00:32:28] There is a some sort of hierarchy um in real life just like your your you are

[00:32:33] above your students and just like well that doesn’t mean in the church we we

[00:32:39] think that like um the the priest has more salvation than us that’s not that’s

[00:32:44] not what we’re saying but we’re but when I think in that verse Jesus is speaking very

[00:32:49] specifically about um about I think their Devotion to God

[00:32:57] because in the new in a new testament we can see time and time again especially

[00:33:02] in like First Corinthians 3 people instead of worshiping God they decided to follow whoever baptized them and I

[00:33:09] Think Jesus is addressing that problem uh very specifically telling you telling

[00:33:15] people that yeah you have one Heavenly Father you have you have one Creator and

[00:33:22] one mediator who is Jesus and no other people would ever replace that role but

[00:33:27] that doesn’t mean that um we we call no no man father or that doesn’t mean that

[00:33:33] um there is no physical hierarchy that exists in the world um well yeah no

[00:33:42] you’re yeah and I agree with that of course of course there’s a physical hierarchy in the world I mean if you have a job you have your employer and

[00:33:48] you’re the employee and you’re not going to tell your employer what to do um and

[00:33:54] same with you know that’s that’s the case all over the place but the position

[00:34:00] you’re taking seems contradictory to me because because on one hand you’re saying that um

[00:34:08] Peter has Supremacy in whatever it is Doctrine Traditions or

[00:34:14] whatever the case is but then on the other hand you’re saying no nobody does have any kind of Supremacy so I’m

[00:34:22] speaking very specifically that the problem I have with um and maybe you

[00:34:28] don’t hold this position but the problem I have historically is that there was

[00:34:34] way too much power given to and Authority given to um many of the leadership in the

[00:34:41] Catholic Church which resulted in many uh things that were very wrong right

[00:34:48] like uh like things like the inquisitions like you know the horrible things that that we can bring up

[00:34:55] historically um were due to somebody saying I know what to do in this

[00:35:00] particular situation and yet what they were doing was completely unbiblical and

[00:35:06] and so the the fund fundamentally um

[00:35:11] when when there’s a debate over something I mean we can make it a present– day debate for example the

[00:35:17] debate over Evolution um the Catholic church has said that um and the pope has said that

[00:35:26] uh evolution is accept um now there are plenty of people that

[00:35:31] will disagree with me but evolution is nowhere in the scriptures at all uh uh it can’t be found uh it is people who

[00:35:39] have who have um studied science in Darwin and decided hey this is

[00:35:44] scientifically accurate therefore um we’re going to make a way for this to work with Genesis or

[00:35:51] whatever the case and so this is an example of a situation in which from

[00:35:57] from a Protestant perspective it doesn’t matter who who says that right I’m going to say no I’m

[00:36:03] going back to scripture scripture is the rock upon which we can build um a church

[00:36:09] The Rock upon which we can build our thoughts and our lives and our decisions

[00:36:14] there is nobody regardless of what they say uh that can contradict scripture

[00:36:19] because scripture is the highest Authority whereas a uh the Catholic position as far as I understand it is

[00:36:27] hey maybe this person has some spiritual Insight that I don’t have um they are

[00:36:34] you know above me they have tradition they have whatever the case therefore um

[00:36:41] I’m going to allow that to speak against scripture or somehow interpret scripture

[00:36:47] in a way that that I’ve never seen before and that’s the same problem that

[00:36:52] Martin Luther had all the way back with the 95 thesis is hey here are 95 things

[00:36:59] that that are contrary to what I’m seeing in scripture so the Catholic church is teaching that these things are

[00:37:05] acceptable I’m saying these things are not acceptable because specifically my

[00:37:11] standard is the scriptures right that’s why Martin Luther got so upset in the first place was because when he was

[00:37:17] teaching scripture and studying it for himself he found these things are not in the Bible this is not true you do not

[00:37:24] have to do these things in order to be saved you’re saved by grace through faith not through any of these other

[00:37:30] works and I know by and large that the Catholic Church it holds that same

[00:37:35] position today but historically that wasn’t the case historically there were a lot of people that were in the church

[00:37:41] that were doing things and teaching things that were completely contrary to scripture and the reason I hold the view

[00:37:49] that I do is because studying history we can very much see hey this is a recipe for

[00:37:57] disaster this is not the direction I want to go and I don’t see that happening in Protestant Christianity

[00:38:03] when a there there are plenty of people who who make bad claims in Protestant

[00:38:09] Christianity many PL plenty of people that say things that are completely wrong um but the difference is is that

[00:38:16] they have no greater Authority um over scripture and therefore I can go back to scripture and I can show that to them

[00:38:23] and I can say this is incorrect what you’re teaching uh

[00:38:28] you know whether it’s whether it’s what’s happened in the Pentecostal church with um multiple people speaking

[00:38:35] in tongues right you have multiple people speaking in tongues well we can go right to the scriptures and it says

[00:38:40] only one person should speak in tongues at a time in a congregation I can go

[00:38:45] right there and be like boom that’s scripture but if if I don’t hold scripture as the highest Authority that

[00:38:51] person can say ah no no that doesn’t apply that’s that’s not relevant to our lives and you know we see this in

[00:38:57] churches all over the world that when they abandon the authority of scripture as the final Authority then you have

[00:39:04] churches going in Wild directions doing very unbiblical things and so I don’t

[00:39:10] see an alternative to holding scripture as the final authority over anybody

[00:39:17] regardless of who they are um or any tradition I mean Jesus himself said you you abandon the commands of God for the

[00:39:23] traditions of men and he was dealing with the exact same problem that we deal

[00:39:30] with today so the Pharisees had decided that their rules their Traditions were

[00:39:36] more important than what God had commanded and that’s why Jesus says to them uh you know when they accused his

[00:39:43] disciples of of uh working on the Sabbath because they were picking heads of grain and they they he said uh uh the

[00:39:52] son of man is is the ruler of the Sabbath uh the Sabbath was not made for

[00:39:57] man was not made for the Sabbath but the Sabbath was made for man and so Jesus had to bring them back to what the

[00:40:04] scriptures actually taught because they had added so much additional teaching onto the scriptures and in a lot of ways

[00:40:11] that’s that’s not un unsimilar to what’s happened historically with the Catholic Church um so that that’s kind of where I

[00:40:19] land on that okay so um then um quick

[00:40:24] question first do you do you think the compilation of the Bible is infallible do you think all let’s say in the New

[00:40:32] Testament the 27 book of the Bible First Timothy also all the

[00:40:37] comilation of the Bible so no no other book than 20 than the 27 books in the Bible can be added in in the New

[00:40:44] Testament in the New Testament right so the all 27 but but but the thing is that

[00:40:49] scripture actually didn’t say that um in like the F in first tennessy you just mentioned that would be that would be

[00:40:56] kind of um illogical because because while first Timothy said that all the

[00:41:02] other books are still being written so how do you know which books are exactly in the Bible and then how do you know

[00:41:08] whether let’s say the Epistle of Peter what what not the Epistle of Peter but the gospel of Peter what how come the

[00:41:13] gospel of Peter is not in the Bible there has be there needs to be some sort of arbiter that that tells you because then

[00:41:21] how would you how would you know what books are in the Bible why why the first so why theist of James in the Bible yeah

[00:41:28] yeah so this is this has to do with the criteria for canonicity which um again

[00:41:33] this is a big difference between the Catholic church and the Protestant Church whereas the Catholic Church

[00:41:38] teaches that they are the Arbiter of scripture the Protestant Church says no no no you are not the Arbiter of

[00:41:44] scripture uh you’re just taking care of what has been given to you by God and

[00:41:50] the criteria yeah the criteria of canonicity is not um it was very

[00:41:56] straightforward and actually very common sense common sensical so for example in

[00:42:01] the Old Testament the first five books of the Bible because they were written by Moses they were accepted as from God

[00:42:08] because Moses was attested as a prophet of God and that’s how every book of the Bible was added was because of the fact

[00:42:14] that okay this person specifically was attested by God and we’re going to add

[00:42:20] that to the cannon Joshua Judges Ruth first first same thing first second Kings first 2 Samuel same thing all down

[00:42:27] the line that same thing happened and what it was was if there was somebody who wrote a book and that book

[00:42:33] contradicted Moses for example then there there’s no way that could be from God because God does not contradict

[00:42:38] himself so the same thing applies in the New Testament but who’s going to decide whether it contradicts or not because a

[00:42:45] lot of the atheists are point out oh there’s um contradiction in the Bible all the time but who’s going to decide

[00:42:50] whether the compilation of the Bible is in Aaron like like when um well

[00:42:56] historically yeah historically there was no need originally because everybody

[00:43:01] knew what was written so for example nobody argued over whether the Gospel of John was from God or not because EV it

[00:43:09] had been passed down the entire time right so the Apostle John lived until uh

[00:43:15] the late first century and everybody knew and then that was passed on to the next person but nobody was a pope it’s

[00:43:22] not they didn’t call John a pope there was nobody who debated it because they

[00:43:27] knew John wrote it right John was alive he was like yeah I wrote it so that got

[00:43:32] passed on as scripture and this happened with all the the successive books of the Bible it wasn’t until um marcion I

[00:43:40] believe his name was uh started trying to pull books out of the Bible that the that the early church fathers got

[00:43:46] together and said whoa whoa whoa whoa what is happening right now he tried to throw away the whole Old Testament this guy he didn’t like the jewishness of the

[00:43:54] Bible which is hilarious but um that was first time they had to come together and

[00:43:59] deal with um say okay well what is the scriptures because up until that point

[00:44:05] everybody agreed on it all the different pastors all around the the the Middle East all agreed on what the scriptures

[00:44:11] were until a marcian started giving them trouble and then they got together and

[00:44:17] they made the the very first Creed which was the rule of fellowship and that rule of Fellowship c counteracted marcian um

[00:44:25] which eventually became the the uh Apostles Creed um and that those Creeds

[00:44:31] were specifically written to counteract Heretics who are coming in now there was no official there was no papacy right

[00:44:39] that didn’t happen until much later historically I I believe that can can I give a quick respond sure yeah yeah yeah

[00:44:44] go ahead Yeah so basically while historically um when the church first started there there are five hubs of the

[00:44:50] church so Rome Constantinople Antioch Jerusalem and Alexandria and they all

[00:44:55] these five different hubs historically history actually points out that they have differenta cannons like for example

[00:45:01] in the council no in the churches of Corinth they they still read the letters

[00:45:07] by um Pope Clement as as an infallible scripture it wasn’t until the counil of

[00:45:13] Rome which is in 383 ad um that the that

[00:45:20] that all the Christians in the world that’s before any Schism happen so at that time there’s only one church that

[00:45:25] all the Christians in the world said on the Canon so and then actually went it

[00:45:30] started with in the Council of Rome Council of Carthage the two set Council of Carthage Council of Hippo Council of

[00:45:36] Florence and later after Reformation reaffirm again in the Council of Trent

[00:45:42] so historically everyone actually has um their own Cannon as well so that’s what

[00:45:48] you will see in the Ethiopian Church why do they why do they have the why do they have the book of um the the Book of

[00:45:56] Enoch when it’s um when when it’s not in the Bible so so historically different

[00:46:02] places actually they they have their own Cannon and some regard it as inspired some do not regard regard it as inspired

[00:46:09] like in several several books now in the Bible were not regarded as ins inspired

[00:46:15] in several um hubs of the church back then like the Book of Revelations or or

[00:46:20] other different books so so that is why um God give his Apostles this Authority

[00:46:29] I know this is where um Protestants and Catholics splits so that is why in the Catholic church we still have the

[00:46:36] sacraments of holy ordination meanwhile in a Protestant Church you guys do not have that so it’s very split among you

[00:46:43] guys on who who can be the pastor or who cannot like I know Cliff um Cliff I said

[00:46:50] it before that anyone who is baptized can baptize other people that is clearly not the case in the Catholic church and

[00:46:56] a lot of Protestants would are going to disagree amongst themselves as well and

[00:47:01] and also the last Point um the last point on um the issue of bi being

[00:47:07] biblical or not Catholic teachings biblical or not um well first thing I will address is that throughout history

[00:47:16] all the Heretics in um in the church has claimed that they they are signing from scripture like when um when the story is

[00:47:25] was arguing how Jesus is to the story um he was arguing how Jesus is completely

[00:47:30] two separate beings um that are not United he he also

[00:47:35] claimed to be citing from scriptures as well and um and then the Bible actually

[00:47:41] tells us to hold on to the Traditions these Traditions yeah we should definitely

[00:47:47] reject man-made Traditions which has been um rejected Talent times in um in

[00:47:52] acumenical councils like pelagianism basically theide of Works based salvation so Traditions yes we should

[00:48:01] absolutely reject man main Traditions if they’re not from God but if they are Traditions directly from God then we

[00:48:07] should definitely hold fast to it so that’s why I was Sting to you second Thessalonians 2:15 hold fast to the

[00:48:13] Traditions verbally or by letter or scripture verbally are the ones that are not written so um so and you mentioned

[00:48:21] about the 95 thesis um fun fact actually the Catholic Church actually accepted 54

[00:48:28] of the 95 thesis and and in the 54 thesis it it accepted it wasn’t because

[00:48:33] the Catholic church was teaching that it was that these points that Martin Luther point out were being abused in the

[00:48:40] church like the idea of selling indulgences it was never official Catholic teaching so the cath that’s why

[00:48:46] the Catholic Church definitely accepted accepted these 54 of the 95 thesis that

[00:48:52] Martin Luther gave but the thing is that little did Manny proston know that the

[00:48:57] Catholic Church actually also responded to um Martin Luther with 120 thesis from

[00:49:04] John E and then um well it it remained um it remained unresponded and

[00:49:12] then yeah last point I would want to make is that all of these Traditions that Catholics emphasize they all go

[00:49:19] back from the early church every ecumenical council they do not add on Traditions they affirm these Traditions

[00:49:25] so that is why the Catholic church today we are still the only church where women cannot be ordained we are still the only

[00:49:31] church that condemns um contraception that’s why we are we are still the only church that

[00:49:37] um that has the pope and a lot of stuff even the um before the grace gism every

[00:49:44] every Bishop in the Orthodox world still recognize the bishop of Rome um yeah that’s where I’ll

[00:49:52] conclude um so I I love that the Catholic Church Church um holds up the

[00:49:59] truth of the Bible like that is wonderful and I love the the unity of

[00:50:04] the church in the sense that for a long time although it seems like there’s fracturing now but for a long time you

[00:50:11] right they’re very specific about okay this this is what we follow back to the

[00:50:16] Bible and I appreciate that so don’t get me wrong I love a lot of the things that

[00:50:22] the Catholic church has done but um I think that the position that we’re debating here um

[00:50:32] creates issues and I think you know from a Protestant perspective you said hey

[00:50:38] we’re the only church that still doesn’t ordain women and there are there are

[00:50:44] things that are taught in certain Protestant churches that are clearly unbiblical but if I were to have a

[00:50:49] conversation with a pastor in that church he wouldn’t tell me you know I’m

[00:50:55] the final Authority on the way scripture is interpreted or anything like that and

[00:51:00] I know that you’re arguing that the Catholic Church doesn’t say that but again that that seems contradictory to

[00:51:07] me because because the whole point is is that if a if if Peter was the rock upon

[00:51:14] which Christ built the church and he was the first pope then that gives him a certain amount of authority and if

[00:51:19] there’s Apostolic succession then there’s a certain amount of authority that that follows the you know the the

[00:51:26] the popes and so um that seems a little contradictory to me but I want to say

[00:51:32] this I want to answer the question that you brought up um before because I think this is important um to share um there

[00:51:39] have been many books that have been that have been um tried to be introduced into the Canon of scripture what is the

[00:51:46] criteria for the Canon of scripture so the this is the the criteria they they have to be connected to eyewitnesses of

[00:51:53] Christ the Risen Christ or Close Associates of eyewitnesses they can’t contradict other authoritative writings

[00:51:59] and they have to be recognized by many churches throughout the world that was the three criteria for canonicity now to

[00:52:05] give you an example of this um the gospel of Peter never got into the Bible

[00:52:12] and this is because um if you read the early church fathers I I don’t know if

[00:52:18] I’m pronouncing this guy’s name right but SAR sarapan um he was the overseer of Antioch around the turn of the third

[00:52:23] Century he was asked by a church if they should read the gospel of Peter he initially recommended that they read it so long as it is truly from Peter but

[00:52:30] then he read it for himself and then he was quoted as saying this is from usus he says when I visit

[00:52:36] you I suppose that all of you held the true faith and as I had not read the gospel which they put forward under the name of Peter I said if this is the only

[00:52:43] thing which occasions dispute among you let it be read but now Having learned from what has been told me that their

[00:52:49] mind was involved in some heresy I will hasten to come to you again therefore Brethren expect me shortly um the point

[00:52:55] is is that these books were rejected very specifically because they did not meet

[00:53:01] the criteria of canonicity by the early church fathers and again that is they have to be connected to an eyewitness of

[00:53:07] the Risen Lord or Close Associates of the eyewitnesses they cannot contradict athor other authoritative writings and

[00:53:12] they must be recognized by many churches throughout the world now somebody can argue well look uh who are you to give

[00:53:18] the criteria of canonicity uh you know but this was just common sense this wasn’t something difficult to figure out

[00:53:25] if they weren’t the things then they were not allowed to be in the cannon now if if certain denominations of

[00:53:32] Christianity have allowed additional books into the Canon I would say that that’s that’s their fault not that this

[00:53:40] means that they are a part of the cannon so I’ll just and I’ll end with this and then you can have the final word but the

[00:53:46] whole church recognized as authoritative the four gospels The Acts of the Apostles the Epistles of Paul first

[00:53:53] Peter and first John that’s 20 of 27 New Testament books everybody recognized those as authoritive there was no dispute over it

[00:54:00] there were some that were disputed parts of them were disputed Hebrews James second Peter second and third John Jude

[00:54:06] and Revelation seven of the 27 New Testament books we know exactly why they

[00:54:12] were disputed so if and we don’t really have time to get into it but if if we were we know exactly why these seven

[00:54:18] books were disputed and every one of them the dispute was settled

[00:54:24] meaning all 20 of those books fit the criteria of canonicity and therefore for

[00:54:32] the Protestant Church they are the New Testament and they are inspired by God

[00:54:37] um to to go outside of those 27 books is to violate the criteria of can

[00:54:44] canonicity and what the early church fathers agreed on was the Canon and the

[00:54:50] criteria for canonicity that’s why Protestants hold specifically to the 27

[00:54:55] books as the inspired word of God um we trust that it was Guided by the Holy

[00:55:02] Spirit but it’s built on factual evidence and Common Sense uh so for me

[00:55:10] this gives me a lot of confidence in the New Testament as inspired by the word of God and I don’t see any reason to

[00:55:17] dispute it and I don’t think any other denomination Roman Catholic would

[00:55:23] dispute those 27 books the dispute is over additional books because they do

[00:55:28] not meet the criteria of canonicity um that that’s yeah so um

[00:55:35] yeah yeah my final words would be um yeah you mentioned the word common sense and I think and I think that is in my

[00:55:42] opinion the the problem of protestantism we just assume Common Sense will lead everyone to the same conclusion and that

[00:55:49] is also that is also a thing toward um the end of Luther’s life when he had a huge problem with the anabaptist where

[00:55:55] basically the anabaptist rejected Luther’s teaching of baptizing infants

[00:56:01] and also baptism being necessary for salvation and then Luther’s conclusion

[00:56:06] was all right well I’m just gonna let Common Sense lead everyone to my position and then that is certainly not

[00:56:14] the case that we see today um and yeah that’s my final thought and then yeah

[00:56:21] thank you Kevin again for letting me on and really it was it was a great discussion I we have more time to

[00:56:27] discuss about it um if I ever have the chance to come talk about some some of the things that are beside my Catholic

[00:56:34] stuff like being uh like an activist on campus I would definitely be down to

[00:56:39] come again so yeah thank you again Kevin for letting me on yeah thank you Ian for doing this I really enjoyed it um it’s a

[00:56:45] big blessing and um I love it when people are you know wrestling through uh

[00:56:52] these issues because that’s something we have to constantly do you and I both uh is just come humbly before God and say

[00:56:58] God hey grant us Grace and help us to to um uh understand you the best we can and

[00:57:04] then when we disagree we we just remain humble and consistently seek the Lord

[00:57:09] and iron sharpens iron right yeah definitely amen I saw someone in The Zo

[00:57:15] call saying Ian’s fan that’s kind of hilarious that’s that’s awesome you’ve

[00:57:20] got a fan club um well well and I would love to have you on in the future um to talk

[00:57:27] about uh Turning Point USA and and what you’re doing because that’s also really awesome and um I’m I’m glad you’re on

[00:57:34] our side so thanks for all you’re doing man I appreciate your hard work so God bless you thank you God bless you as

[00:57:40] well okay talk to you later man yeah see you bye have a good night when you need

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