What the James Webb Telescope Findings Mean for the Big Bang with Dr. Jason Lisle

[00:00:00] thanks for being here today my name is Kevin Conover I’m the host on educate for Life radio we’re broadcasting down here in Southern California on K praise

[00:00:08] 12 10 a.m if you’re local and then we’re also on FM 106.1 in North County and of

[00:00:13] course we’re all over the web and um we are all over the Internet podcasts

[00:00:19] and everywhere else my guest today is Dr Jason Lyle he majored in physics and

[00:00:24] astronomy with a minor in mathematics at Ohio Wesleyan University he then went on to obtain a master’s degree and PhD in

[00:00:30] astrophysics at the University of Colorado in Boulder he’s written a variety of best-selling books including

[00:00:36] taking back astronomy the stargazer’s guide to the night sky the ultimate proof of creation Discerning truth and

[00:00:42] understanding Genesis uh Dr Lyle thanks for being here today oh my pleasure thanks for having me on absolutely

[00:00:50] um you’ve been on on the show several other times discussing cosmology and these sorts of

[00:00:56] issues in fact now that I’m thinking about it I think you were the very first guest I had on the radio program probably like six years ago that’s

[00:01:03] really yeah that is that was funny I just just thought about that and uh really enjoyed discussing with you

[00:01:10] um the evidence for the truth of Genesis the sixth day creation and um everything uh what was really cool and I’ve

[00:01:17] actually shared your the broadcast we had quite a few times you discussed um your study of comets and how short-term

[00:01:24] comments actually disappear and I guess you wrote your dissertation I think on that was that correct or your thoughts

[00:01:29] no I my dissertation was on the sun although that’s related that’s that’s what inevitably destroys the comments

[00:01:34] that’s what contributes to their their short lifetime yeah yeah fantastic and

[00:01:39] that was really great um and now we’ve got this huge thing that’s come out recently with the James Webb Telescope that was launched not too

[00:01:47] long ago and I noticed that was launched on Christmas day was that deliberate that they launched that on Christmas day

[00:01:52] uh I don’t think so no it was just when I was in grad school they were planning

[00:01:57] on launching it in I think it was like 2007 or something like that so it’s been

[00:02:02] delayed and delayed and delayed I’m just yeah that’s pretty wild

[00:02:08] um I was looking and doing a little bit of looking into this the Hubble telescope was launched April 24th 1990

[00:02:13] and then the James Webb Telescope was launched December 25th 2021 and

[00:02:20] um I just before we get into what the game what we’re finding with the James Webb Telescope I wanted to ask you you

[00:02:25] know of course cosmology is learning all the time you’re there’s constant new

[00:02:30] information that’s being gained and gleaned and it seems like there’s new discoveries all the time prior to

[00:02:37] um the Hubble telescope what what views did science have regarding the universe

[00:02:43] that the Hubble telescope um either you know changed our perspective on things or

[00:02:49] um actually you know shed new light on what’s actually happening what what kind of things did the Hubble telescope

[00:02:55] reveal to us well it gave us greater Clarity on especially deep Sky objects we had by

[00:03:02] the time the Hubble was launched we had visited all the planets in the solar system other than Pluto which was still

[00:03:08] planted at that time uh it’s been demoted since then but we had great pictures of the planets because we’ve

[00:03:13] been there we’ve sent space probes past them everything else the Hubble does better

[00:03:18] uh and that’s because it’s above the Earth’s atmosphere and that was that was novel because this these this light

[00:03:24] travels from these distant galaxies that are billions of light years away which

[00:03:30] you multiply that you know one light year is about six trillion miles and so you just multiply that out and it

[00:03:36] travels that light travels in perfect clarity until it hits the Earth’s atmosphere and it gets scrambled in the

[00:03:41] last like two miles if it’s dirty so it’s it’s very frustrating yeah for sure to have this atmosphere I’m glad we have

[00:03:48] it’s nice for breathing it’s not good for astronomy so uh the Hubble uh gets above that that the turbulent effects of

[00:03:54] Earth’s atmosphere the atmosphere doesn’t block much light it scrambles at it it makes the images a little bit blurry and so once we had the Hubble up

[00:04:01] there and once we fixed it because they had they had um improperly calibrated the curvature of the mirror it’s by a

[00:04:08] tiny amount but that was enough that the original images that came back on Hubble were blurry and they knew that there was

[00:04:13] a problem so they installed co-star uh one of the advantages of Hubble Is it’s it’s serviceable it’s in low earth orbit

[00:04:21] which means the astronauts can get to it they could get to it in the space shuttle um it’s it’s a little bit of a higher

[00:04:27] but for the space shuttle but it can get there and so that was one of the advantages of Hubble Is they were able to upgrade the instruments over time so

[00:04:34] it’s not the same spacecraft as it was when it was first launched the mirror’s the same but all the internal instruments have been replaced and we

[00:04:40] started getting these amazing images of galaxies at tremendous distances distances that were a little bit

[00:04:46] surprising because when they when they pointed it at a section of space that’s relatively empty in our galaxy

[00:04:53] to see out what’s beyond it they started finding just all kind just all kinds of

[00:04:59] galaxies out there at tremendous distances and they look pretty similar to nearby galaxies they had they had

[00:05:05] spiral structure you had some ellipticals and so on and um and so that was one of the things that the James

[00:05:11] Webb was supposed to help is is to be able to go even deeper out into space because in the secular view as you look

[00:05:18] farther out into space it’s kind of like looking back in time now this it’s not exactly true because space and time are

[00:05:26] more complicated than people assume that’s what Einstein found but in any case in the second review uh you should

[00:05:32] be seeing the universe as it was allegedly billions of years ago um you know again I disagree with that

[00:05:38] but but um they were expecting to see galaxies just starting to form and when they didn’t see that with Hubble they

[00:05:44] realized it that must have happened even earlier in history then than they thought the secularists assuming a Big

[00:05:50] Bang model of the universe and so uh but nonetheless Hubble’s been a tremendous

[00:05:55] success this despite the initial curvature problem uh and we have these wonderful views and now we have its its

[00:06:02] successor so uh you know this is interesting just to break it down for our listeners you

[00:06:07] know the the two different views here and um my understanding is that the universe is

[00:06:13] 28 billion light years across is that is that accurate uh depending on

[00:06:19] in some sense yes okay there’s like three different ways of measuring

[00:06:24] distance in cosmology and they’re wildly different that’s that’s one so so that would be like we might as

[00:06:31] well start there so break that down for us then what is what is the biblical view versus the uh secularist view of

[00:06:38] the of the universe and when we look through Hubble when we look through James Webb

[00:06:45] um you know we hear science makes predictions right so um this is what we expect to see and

[00:06:51] this is what we did see and so break that down for our listeners the two different views and then what we’re

[00:06:58] learning through from James Webb okay well we uh largely agree uh secularists

[00:07:03] and um and and and creation scientists like myself on on sort of the size of

[00:07:09] the universe we all agree it’s very big the the measurements by which we get the distances to these things

[00:07:15] um at least you know out to uh you know a billion light years they’re very good and so and when people hear that term

[00:07:21] light year they think well doesn’t that mean it’s billions of years old not really and and according to the physics

[00:07:26] that Einstein discovered you can actually get the light from this gal galaxies here immediately depending on what synchrony convention you use and

[00:07:33] that’s a that’s a topic for another time but the point is it doesn’t immediately made the universe is old it just means

[00:07:38] it’s very big the main difference we disagree on is how the universe came to be and the I take the Bible is God’s

[00:07:47] word it’s demonstrated itself to be God’s word in many different ways but uh one of the things that the Bible does is

[00:07:53] it gives us at least an overview in basic terms of the a description of how and when God created what he created in

[00:08:00] the universe biblically stars are made on day four of the creation week they

[00:08:05] are three days younger than the earth is Earth’s made on day one uh God spent five of the six creation

[00:08:12] days working the Earth making it right for life he takes one day that first Wednesday and creates everything else in

[00:08:18] the universe the the greater light to Rule the Day the Lesser light to rule the night the sun and the moon and the stars also and that would that would

[00:08:25] include all these galaxies because that’s what galaxies are made of they’re made of stars so stars are made on day

[00:08:30] four of creation week and from the Biblical timeline that wasn’t billions of years ago that was a few thousand years ago now we’ve all been we’ve we’ve

[00:08:38] heard millions of years for what seems like millions of years since we were very young and so that that’s drilled

[00:08:44] into us at the university is billions of years old and that’s and the reason that the secularists need that they need that

[00:08:49] for evolution to sound plausible and of course we all agree animals change a bit

[00:08:54] but I don’t believe that that I’m evolved from you know an ape-like ancestor or something like that but in

[00:09:00] any case uh they they need those billions of years for evolution to sound plausible because we all agree you can’t

[00:09:05] get people from bacteria in a time scale of thousands of years there’s no doubt there yeah so the secular View the

[00:09:12] second review the most common one these days and it’s almost Universal among secularists maybe not quite but almost

[00:09:19] is what sometimes called the Big Bang or the Big Bang Theory or the Big Bang model and the idea is that the Universe

[00:09:26] uh just sort of came into existence about 13.8 billion years ago and it started as

[00:09:34] a a point and I don’t mean a point surrounded by empty space I mean space itself is in the point which is really

[00:09:41] hard to grasp but it’s not my story I’m just trying to accurately represent theirs yeah and there’s for our

[00:09:47] listeners there’s no scientific evidence that that that is actually the case that’s just an assertion it is an

[00:09:52] assertion right and of of the major steps that the Big Bang um of the Big Bang story uh most of them

[00:10:00] have not been confirmed at all and really can’t be confirmed the only one that comes close so I’ll come to in just a minute but basically this point then

[00:10:07] expands rapidly it expands like a balloon now the physics of Einstein allows empty space to be sort of a

[00:10:13] fabric that can be expanded so it’s plausible um and then it carries energy with it

[00:10:19] the universe starts extremely hot it’s so hot that you can’t even have atoms they would they would break apart

[00:10:25] immediately the temperatures are too high and then at a certain point it cools off to enough temperature where

[00:10:30] you can start to have atoms and uh you you know they can the electrons can start binding to the nuclei and so on

[00:10:36] instead of just having this hot plasma and but the universe is dark that’s all it is is hydrogen and helium gas a

[00:10:42] little bit of lithium only those three elements then the first stars formed billions of years ago and

[00:10:50] then some of those stars um exp some of the really massive ones ended up exploding and when they explode they

[00:10:56] they fused together those uh elements to make the all the other elements that are

[00:11:01] in the universe because there’s about 90 elements in our in our universe the Big Bang is supposed to make only the first

[00:11:07] the the lightest three hydrogen helium a little bit of lithium and then when stars explode when the first generation

[00:11:13] of stars explode they make everything else they make all the other elements so the next generation of stars has

[00:11:19] hydrogen helium lithium and a little bit of some of these heavier elements because it’s been contaminated by that first generation and then and then the

[00:11:27] Next Generation the sun would be sort of a third generation star the sun forms and the planets of the solar system and

[00:11:33] so on and it that happens allegedly 4.5 billion years ago in the secular model so we have a wild disparity on time

[00:11:40] scales we have a disparity on the order of events but we agree more or less with the way

[00:11:46] the universe uh looks today in terms of how big it is and so on it’s very big so so then from The secularist View when

[00:11:54] you look out through the Hubble telescope and then you look out through the James Webb Telescope the claim is is

[00:11:59] that the farther out into space you can look you’re getting to a time frame that is closer to the beginning of that

[00:12:06] universe so you should see the things that originated like you said you said first generation Stars Then second

[00:12:11] generation Stars Then third generation stars and so you should see this pattern and that’s what’s predicted by the

[00:12:17] secular hypothesis and if you don’t see that then there’s a problem is that is that accurate that’s it that’s it exactly they were expecting to see

[00:12:24] um a few things they’re expecting to see that first generation Stars which um

[00:12:29] ironically are called population three it’s because we discovered them backwards we discovered the third

[00:12:35] generation first so those are population one so the sun’s a population one star then there are population two stars and

[00:12:41] then there are hypothetically there are these population three stars now I don’t believe that those populations have

[00:12:47] anything to do with age or generation that’s the secular View but my point is in the second review one of the

[00:12:53] expectations of the James Webb Space Telescope is that it would detect uh galaxies made up almost entirely of

[00:12:59] population three stars which have uh none of the heavy elements in it they’re entirely hydrogen helium and lithium

[00:13:06] because those are the only three elements the Big Bang can make according to the physics if you if if

[00:13:12] the universe were ever in that condition now that was the question I was going to ask you about that is you know the Big

[00:13:17] Bang as far as I understand it there are actually a lot of cosmologists even secular cosmologists that have major

[00:13:23] problems with the theory of the Big Bang simply because they can’t get all the physics puzzle pieces to all fit

[00:13:29] together and it seems to be there’s a lot of there’s a lot of conflict that they’re they’re bumping into that that

[00:13:35] creates problems um so So when you say when they when when

[00:13:41] they’re going back in time and they don’t see any of these stars with heavier elements what you’re saying is is that the physics they’ve worked out

[00:13:48] in their mind as far as the Big Bang Theory is concerned that’s what they’re expecting based on

[00:13:54] uh their hypothesis that this is how it all went together

[00:13:59] they’re trying to make sense of a universe that could somehow make itself with no God no designer no anything is

[00:14:07] that correct yeah they’re expecting to see that um as you look out further in their view you’re looking back further

[00:14:13] in time and so galaxies ought to have fewer and fewer heavy elements until in

[00:14:18] the earliest galaxies shouldn’t have any and so that was one of the goals of the James Webb Space Telescope and it’s

[00:14:23] equipped with with an instrument called a spectroscope that can break light down into a spectrum and based on which

[00:14:29] colors are present missing it’s like an atomic fingerprint it can actually tell what the material is that made the

[00:14:34] source wow this is how we know what anything is made of in astronomy because we can’t in most cases we can’t go out

[00:14:40] and touch yeah we use spectroscopy and it’s a very well established field and James Webb is equipped with an

[00:14:46] instrument that can detect heavy elements should they be there but the expectation is those heavy elements

[00:14:51] won’t be there in the oldest farthest galaxies and they would expect that

[00:14:56] there should be some distance where there aren’t any galaxies and James Webb was supposed to be able to it can see

[00:15:02] far enough that it ought to be able to see that distance at which there simply aren’t any more galaxies because they

[00:15:07] haven’t formed yet in that view you’re looking back to a time before any of the galaxies had formed because it takes

[00:15:13] Stars a while to form and it takes some hundreds of millions of years allegedly to group into galaxies so hypothetically

[00:15:20] are they go ahead I’m sorry go ahead I’m just going to say that they’re uh they were also expecting that the the

[00:15:27] earliest galaxies should be sort of disorganized and low mass because it takes time for them to accumulate Stars

[00:15:33] Ergo the first Galaxy should be very low mass they shouldn’t have very many stars and they should be kind of clumpy and

[00:15:39] irregular because it’s supposed to take time for them to smooth out into these wonderful spiral and elliptical galaxies

[00:15:44] that we have today so those are the three secular predictions of the James Webb Space Telescope wow now

[00:15:50] hypothetically do they actually think that if you weren’t able to look far far enough maybe even farther than the the

[00:15:55] James Webb Telescope can look um would they expect that you would actually see the the beginning of that

[00:16:01] Singularity uh you know exploding is that what they’re thinking um yes and they would argue that in fact

[00:16:08] we do because they would say that’s what the cosmic microwave background is and that takes a little explanation if you

[00:16:14] could see our eyes can only see a narrow range of light in the universe of

[00:16:19] electromagnetic radiation from the red to the Violet but if you go down deeper into the infrared you go even beyond

[00:16:25] that you get down to microwaves if you could see microwaves you go outside at night and the sky would be glowing

[00:16:30] faintly with microwaves coming from everywhere and it has been the conviction of big Bank supporters for

[00:16:36] many decades since about about 1964 that that is supposed to be kind of the

[00:16:42] leftover radiation from The Big Bang now that’s an interpretation the fact is the microwaves are there that’s that’s

[00:16:48] indisputable we can detect them the question is what’s causing them and are they really left over radiation from a

[00:16:54] big bang so they’re saying in a sense we are seeing that and we knew that even before even before the Hubble was

[00:17:00] launched because because you use a different type of telescope to detect um to detect microwaves and we’ve had those

[00:17:05] that was uh was that penzius is that how you say his name yeah and Wilson were

[00:17:11] the discoverers of that Cosmic microwave background and uh and we had another spacecraft Kobe that was able to detect

[00:17:18] that um in some detail and there have been several since then that have that have measured the cosmic microwave background

[00:17:24] in some detail what are your what are your thoughts on that I’ve never heard um a Biblical creationist position on on

[00:17:32] that that back ground radiation I’m not sure that uh creation astronomers I

[00:17:37] don’t think we have a consistent consensus answer on what it is we’re not sure I mean we know we know what it is

[00:17:43] we know it’s microwaves coming from everywhere we don’t know necessarily what the cause is uh the latest James Webb results have given me some ideas on

[00:17:51] what that might be it could be that the structure of the universe is very different from what the secularists

[00:17:57] think and that the cosmic microwave background is basically coming from

[00:18:03] galaxies that are extremely distant and unresolved and have been redshifted so their light is shifted all the way into microwaves that’s a possible possibility

[00:18:10] huh interesting there’s so many interesting things about cosmology it’s uh because uh there’s so many so many

[00:18:18] questions that are still need to be answered and uh very very interesting

[00:18:23] um so what’s happening now you know they look out there and they’re not seeing what they expected to see you said you

[00:18:30] know they expected to see places where there’s essentially galaxies haven’t formed yet and are they seeing that

[00:18:36] everywhere they look there are galaxies formed is that what they’re seeing yeah and in fact that was a prediction

[00:18:42] that that I made I uh the secularists they had their they had three predictions of what they were expecting to find I made three predictions of what

[00:18:49] I as a creationist would expect to find and mine are essentially the opposite of theirs because I don’t take the uh I

[00:18:56] don’t believe the galaxies form naturalistically and so I expect that no matter how far out you look you’re going to see fully designed fully formed

[00:19:02] galaxies massive ones like we find kind of like we find nearby wouldn’t have to be exactly the same but I would expect

[00:19:08] the same type of galaxies at tremendous distances so I’m not expecting small irregular clumpy galaxies I’m expecting

[00:19:14] full mature well-designed galaxies and I don’t have any reason to think that they

[00:19:19] stop at some distance now they might God might have stopped creating at some point but it would be

[00:19:26] um it would be fantastic indeed if he stopped at exactly the place the secularists were predicting so my prediction was they’ll go out beyond

[00:19:32] that that will find galaxies at at distances that if you assume the Big

[00:19:39] Bang model would course respond to times where galaxies should not have formed yet so I’m predicting that James Webb

[00:19:45] will see galaxies at much further distances than the secularists and I

[00:19:50] don’t believe that the heavy elements were at least all of them were produced inside Stars so I’m expecting the

[00:19:56] farthest Stars will have some of those heavy elements remember in the secular view they shouldn’t have any because the

[00:20:02] stars that form right after the big bang should only have the three lightest elements because that’s all the big bang can make so I’m not expecting to find

[00:20:08] those population three stars in those farthest galaxies so those were the three predictions that I made uh January

[00:20:15] uh 2022 before James Webb had taken any data

[00:20:21] and and your result what you predicted is what they’ve been finding it is yeah they found that in fact the

[00:20:29] galaxies go out far beyond what they were expecting at uh now the farther away galaxy is the more redshifted its

[00:20:35] light is and so they were expecting that galaxies would go out to about redshift 14 and that that ought to be the limit

[00:20:41] and they really ought to Peter out before that you know because it you know they don’t all form immediately it takes

[00:20:46] time for them to form supposedly but um the latest results we’ve seen from James Webb show galaxies going out far beyond

[00:20:53] redshift 14 uh one of the galaxies they’ve identified they believe goes out to a red shift of about 20. so it’s just

[00:20:59] it’s just much further and that would correspond in the Big Bang view that would correspond to a Time several

[00:21:04] hundred million years before they thought galaxies could have formed so that’s that’s really exciting yeah and

[00:21:11] these galaxies are massive they are massive they’re comparable and Mass to nearby galaxies and that was something

[00:21:17] that was totally unexpected uh from the uh secular standpoint but I I was

[00:21:22] expecting it and also they’re well struck sure you see beautiful you see spiral galaxies out of these distances

[00:21:28] you can see the discs very clearly the arms are hard to make out but the discs are there and that was really

[00:21:34] astonishing from the from the secular point of view but that was what I was expecting mature fully formed galaxies

[00:21:39] at those distances and again the James Webb Space Telescope

[00:21:45] has a an instrument on it that can detect the chemistry that’s producing that light and sure enough it’s it

[00:21:50] detected heavy elements it detected things like oxygen and you know some of these heavier elements that can’t be

[00:21:55] produced in the Big Bang confirming that the farthest stars that we see are population 2 and population one just

[00:22:01] like nearby stars and they’re not finding that initial that first generation that they think existed

[00:22:07] because I think all stars are probably first generation because they were spoken into existence by God that’s fantastic my guest today is Dr

[00:22:14] Jason Lyle he’s an astrophysicist if you want to learn more about his research and what he’s doing or if you would like

[00:22:20] to have him come speak to your group you can just check them out at the biblical science institute.com that’s his website

[00:22:27] you can check it out and get all kinds of resources and help you need um Jason I wanted to ask you

[00:22:32] um you know how bad is this for the Big Bang model I mean uh there are things

[00:22:38] where you expect on a regular basis where in science you’re going to correct a theory you’re going to adjust your you

[00:22:45] know you that’s what science does it’s constantly learning um how how big of a deal is this for the

[00:22:50] big is this something where oh okay it’s time to scrap this Viewpoint and look for a new Theory or is this kind of like

[00:22:57] ah we just have to make some modifications here make some adjustments and we can fix this well it depends on your world view I

[00:23:03] think it’s pretty devastating to the Big Bang idea but um it doesn’t it doesn’t

[00:23:08] absolutely refute the Big Bang what it does refute is the big Bang’s time scale at least the previous time scale in

[00:23:14] terms of when galaxies supposedly formed and so on that’s now gone because that was that’s wrong these galaxies refute

[00:23:20] the notion that galaxies take at least 450 million years to form because you

[00:23:26] know looking back at that distance again applying the secular time time scale they formed much earlier than was

[00:23:31] previously expected but um that doesn’t that doesn’t convince people people aren’t convinced by evidence and you

[00:23:38] know it really it really comes down to the fact that the Big Bang is isn’t so much a um a theory or hypothesis about

[00:23:45] how the universe formed as it is a world view it’s a philosophy through which the evidence is interpreted and so

[00:23:51] um and knowing that and knowing something about human nature uh back back last January January 2022 I not

[00:23:59] only predicted what James Webb would find but I predict addicted how the secular astronomers would react when

[00:24:05] their predictions failed I was confident enough that their predictions would fail that I was also able to predict what

[00:24:10] they would say when their predictions failed and uh it’s amazing when you it’s

[00:24:16] amazing the kind of predictions you’re able to make when you study the Bible which teaches you all about human nature

[00:24:21] and reality exactly the Bible tells us about the universe it tells us about human beings so here was my prediction I

[00:24:29] predicted that the secularists would say things like and here’s my quote Webb discovers that galaxies formed much

[00:24:35] earlier than previously thought now here now let me show you some actual clothes that that came out quote galaxies

[00:24:42] started forming much earlier than many astronomers previously thought that’s from UConn today August 9 2022. here’s

[00:24:48] another one massive galaxies formed earlier in the universe than previously known that’s from nature news July 27

[00:24:54] 2022. um here’s another one evidence is building that the first galaxies formed earlier than expected sky and Telescope

[00:25:01] January 10th 2023. so um I was waiting this is the one that had the wording just exactly the same yeah pretty close

[00:25:08] though somebody’s listening to you they’re like I’m gonna make this guy’s predictions come true

[00:25:13] yeah no it reminds me of um what happened when the whole thing came you know came out about finding soft tissue

[00:25:20] and dinosaur bones and I I kind of was like well that’s the end of that I mean

[00:25:26] problem solved you know um and then all of a sudden somebody was like well I guess red blood cells can

[00:25:32] last uh you know millions and millions of years and I was like oh my goodness you know how much more does the evidence

[00:25:39] have to be in front of your face before you you decide to go okay I made a mistake I gotta change my perspective

[00:25:45] but there are people that do do that there are people who do who are at a point in their life where they go you

[00:25:50] know what I’ve got to reconsider things I’ve you know this is the straw that broke the camel’s back and I I I you

[00:25:57] know read about many scientists who that was their position they they decided you know what the evidence is too much now

[00:26:03] I’ve decided I’ve got to change my world view do you see that happening at all with anybody is there anybody out there that

[00:26:08] you that you keep track of that you see that um people’s World Views are changing no one specifically but I do expect that

[00:26:15] a small fraction of secularists will re will reconsider but I think it’ll be pretty small but the big Bang’s been so

[00:26:21] ingrained into our culture and into in it’s you know at the academic level

[00:26:26] um it’s the only thing that’s taught anymore uh there there were there are a couple other competing hypotheses in the

[00:26:31] past some of them can modified versions of them continuing to the present there’s a modified version of the steady

[00:26:37] state Theory which used to compete with the big bang until the discovery the cosmic microwave background so but the

[00:26:43] thing is if you’re committed to a secular worldview you’ll just jump to another secular uh answer another

[00:26:48] secular speculation on how the universe began I I at the very least I hope that

[00:26:54] these observations will uh challenge Christians who should have been a little

[00:27:00] stronger on this issue in in it you know and it’s it’s a Temptation common to all of us where we we look and we say well

[00:27:06] there’s some really smart people who say this is the way it happened maybe I’m not reading the Bible right uh no the

[00:27:11] Bible’s pretty clear and you can have confidence Senate yeah and granted we have to do our homework we have to do

[00:27:16] our homework because the Bible is written in Hebrew and Greek and sometimes it’s not translated perfectly we have to do our exegetical homework

[00:27:22] but nonetheless it’s pretty clear on how God created the universe and the time scale in which he did it and uh I mean

[00:27:29] the fact is it was the creationists we were the ones that were making the correct predictions about what James Webb would detect yeah and that’s that’s

[00:27:36] good science we have we have something here we have a model that makes sense and and I’m building on what the Bible

[00:27:42] says I’m not testing the Bible itself but I’m building on what it says then I’m testing that model and it’s

[00:27:48] consistent with the data that we’ve seen the original Big Bang predictions were not so the secularists will you know

[00:27:54] they’ll put Band-Aids on their model to to make it match the latest data that’s not new that’s happened like you said

[00:28:00] the red blood cells that were found on a T-Rex that didn’t convince many secularists that that the dinosaurs are

[00:28:06] not millions of years old they just assumed well there must be some undiscovered process that can preserve these red blood cells and so in the same

[00:28:12] way that was why how I was able to make that prediction they’ll just push they’ll just push Galaxy formation back

[00:28:18] to an earlier time where webcam detect it so basically what they’re going to do is they’re going to revise their story

[00:28:24] and just adjust it um and the reality is is because it’s not

[00:28:29] dependent upon actual science it’s not actually dependent upon something that it that is measurable and observable and

[00:28:36] and able to be studied in the lab they can they can redesign their Story and

[00:28:42] there’s really no consequence for it right isn’t that true yeah yeah people don’t think science works that way but

[00:28:48] it kind of does it shouldn’t it shouldn’t you know you’re supposed to make a hypothesis and you test it and if

[00:28:53] it fails then you reject the hypothesis but in in practice uh I don’t very few

[00:29:00] people really do that in practice we tend to want to patch up our model if it’s some especially if it’s something

[00:29:05] that we’ve held to for a long time the Big Bang has been ingrained in the in the consciousness of astronomers

[00:29:12] well for a long time I mean it was invented back in the 30s but it was the The Cosmic microwave background seemed

[00:29:18] to confirm it in the 60s and so uh that we secular astronomers have been thinking in a particular way for a long

[00:29:24] time and these new data challenge that but rather than reinvent the whole Paradigm they will likely find rescuing

[00:29:30] devices to um to fit these newer data now what what else is there in cosmology

[00:29:36] that um doesn’t go along with that is actually scientifically observable that

[00:29:42] doesn’t actually fit the Big Bang hypothesis because as far as I understand it um I I believe it was Fred Hoyle who

[00:29:50] came up with the term Big Bang is that correct yes and he was not an advocate

[00:29:55] of it he he was against it he held to a steady state View and he he coined that term to make fun of to make fun of the

[00:30:02] Big Bang but it’s stuck people liked it so there there you go but um yeah and

[00:30:07] and there there is a lot of other um observation a lot of other observations that are inconsistent with

[00:30:13] what you’d expect that were sort of surprising when we found them um that are inconsistent with the the

[00:30:19] standard secular model of how the universe formed and how stars form and how planets form and so on

[00:30:25] um it’s it’s almost not talked about it anymore but when they first started discovering these big Jupiter sized

[00:30:31] planets orbiting very close to their star that was not expected in in the secular formation scenarios not expected

[00:30:37] at all and today we found so many of them that they’ve you know they can accommodate that they’ve re they’ve

[00:30:42] they’ve they have a new a newer story now it’s still secular but how those you know must they must have formed far away

[00:30:48] and then they migrate in apparently um and so there and there’s problems with that um just the the existence of blue stars

[00:30:55] I think is very compelling and you have to be you have to be careful when you use this argument because we all agree

[00:31:00] secular and and creationists agree that that blue stars can’t last billions of years that’s not disputed uh my secular

[00:31:07] colleagues believe that that they have therefore formed recently but we’ve never really seen that we’ve never

[00:31:12] really seen a star form and there are some challenges getting it to form there are some Physics problems that need to

[00:31:19] be overcome and I think secularists who study star formation I think if they’re honest about it they’ll admit that yeah

[00:31:25] there are some challenges where we don’t know how this could could happen because gas doesn’t want to just collapse in on

[00:31:30] itself uh normally the outward force of gas pressure is much greater in the

[00:31:35] nebula than any meager inward force of gravity now once a star is made by God its own gravity will hold it together

[00:31:42] because it’s so compact but a nebula is not going to want to collapse in on itself under its own

[00:31:48] under its own weight because the outward force of gas pressure is too big and then there’s problems with magnetic

[00:31:53] fields and angular momentum and so on that would tend to prevent star formation so that’s a real challenge so

[00:31:58] the physics the physics of it just really practically speaking it doesn’t really work and uh you know I was

[00:32:05] reading you know it’s thermodynamically unstable things are thermodynamically unstable

[00:32:10] um and that’s just the basic laws of thermodynamics that things don’t tend towards order they tend for disorder or

[00:32:17] Tech toward entropy um so are these just more stories or is

[00:32:22] there actually a science behind it because I I was actually in a discussion with somebody and they said to me they said no no stars do form I said I I

[00:32:30] don’t believe that there’s ever been a star that’s been observed forming actually forming

[00:32:35] um and they insisted that it was the case uh was I wrong or is that have they actually not seen that no you’re right

[00:32:41] no one’s ever seen that no one’s ever seen a star in the process of collapsing in on itself every every time we’ve been

[00:32:47] able to measure velocities of gas in space it’s either expanding or it’s it’s too small to tell but we don’t we don’t

[00:32:54] see stars that are in the process of formation Stars collapsing in on themselves and the physics the physics problems there are real that doesn’t

[00:33:00] mean they’re insurmountable and I and by the way I’m not saying that it’s absolutely fundamentally impossible for

[00:33:06] startup form I’m just very skeptical of it because in my world view it’s not necessary because I think the the

[00:33:12] initial creation of the Stars was Supernatural so I don’t need a naturalistic explanation uh yeah now if

[00:33:19] God made a process where new ones could form I’d be okay with that I just don’t see it and I think it was Neil deGrasse

[00:33:25] Tyson that said something to the effect of if we didn’t know that stars existed he could make a pretty good argument

[00:33:31] that they shouldn’t exist that they think that they can’t exist and I think wow I wouldn’t expect that something did

[00:33:36] not happen but that’s a paraphrase but yeah yeah and then I agree with him on that I I would say yeah the physics

[00:33:41] physics tends to resist gas just sort of collapsing in on itself

[00:33:46] normally you’d need something that you need something to compress it so that you can eventually get gravity to

[00:33:52] overcome the outward force of gas pressure and angular momentum and magnetic field pressure as well and so

[00:33:58] normally they they would invoke something like a supernova another star explodes and

[00:34:04] um Russ Humphries and I one time we did a little quick calculation of that we found that there ought to be about in

[00:34:09] order to for the compression from supernovae to uh to to trigger an actual

[00:34:15] star formation you’d need about four Supernova at about the same time in in this in the same area and so that’s so

[00:34:21] you’d have you’d have more stars falling apart than coming together yeah so yeah you need about four four to make a new

[00:34:27] one now maybe you could make a few out of that but still and it doesn’t explain how you get the first Stars either because you know there aren’t any

[00:34:33] Supernova to make the first Stars so that that I believe is I think if secularists are honest about it they

[00:34:39] would admit that’s an outstanding problem in their view they think it’s surmountable I think it might be insurmountable but uh time will tell

[00:34:46] so you know another one of the things you know when we when we study things as far as how long things can last recent

[00:34:53] creation evidences uh I referenced you know in the beginning of the program the comets and the short-term comments and

[00:34:59] how long they they’re they’re wiped out by the Sun and um we have things like the decreasing uh magnetic field of the

[00:35:05] earth we have the uh the core of you know moons and so forth that’s that’s uh

[00:35:11] the heat it’s experiencing entropy they’re cooling off and these sorts of things so when they look back with the

[00:35:17] James Webb Telescope and they’re looking way out into space what you’re expecting to see is

[00:35:23] things that supposedly form sooner and therefore should be at the stage where

[00:35:28] they’re burning out is that true true or am I under misunderstanding that um are you you shouldn’t see young Stars

[00:35:36] the farther out you go is that correct well it’d be the opposite they would expect that as you go out deeper into

[00:35:42] space all you should see is very young Stars right so okay these older population because that’s closer to the

[00:35:48] beginning yeah but in fact the fact is we do see population one and population two stars out at these tremendous

[00:35:54] distances according to according to Webb or at the very least it’s detected metallicity it’s detected some of these heavy elements in those farthest

[00:36:01] galaxies and that is contrary to the expectations of the secularists but it’s something that I predicted what about

[00:36:07] Supernova uh and the fact that you know there’s a certain amount of supernova do they see Supernova when they look way

[00:36:13] out there also uh well certainly uh and we’ve known that for some time even ground-based telescopes can detect very

[00:36:21] distant Supernova because they’re very bright okay so when they go off in a distant Galaxy we can detect that

[00:36:27] um if if you’re asking if it’s the same rate as would be expected I don’t know I’m not sure okay with the calculation

[00:36:32] on that would be interesting and then um so what’s what is coming up in the

[00:36:37] future are there new things they’re expecting to be able to see with the James Webb Telescope what what is on the horizon that uh they’re making

[00:36:43] predictions about and they’re hoping to find I think they’ll keep trying to find those early galaxies I think they’ll

[00:36:50] they’ll maybe do longer exposures they’ll try to get out they’ll try to push the limit of it um because they’re they haven’t given up

[00:36:55] on the Big Bang they’ve just pushed Galaxy formation back hundreds of millions of years earlier which is kind

[00:37:01] of what they did when the Hubble Deep Field was released anyway so yeah precedent for this so that’s kind of

[00:37:06] what my expectation would be and I think they’ll continue to find galaxies out at at whatever distance uh the web is able

[00:37:12] to uh detect in terms of its technological limitations I think they’ll still see galaxies at that

[00:37:17] distance that’s my expectation yeah we’ll see if that’s we’ll see if that’s worn out so um and then on a personal

[00:37:24] level where with your own um biblical world view and where you where you um how you interpret things uh I’m just

[00:37:30] curious you know um the regarding the size of the universe is the universe have an end to

[00:37:37] it or is it uh is you know is there a God created it and then we’re done here

[00:37:43] at this point or does it extend you know just infinitely how does that work

[00:37:48] only God knows the answer to that unfortunately I’d love to know the answer if he’d whispered that in my ear but we don’t have we don’t we don’t

[00:37:54] there’s no way to know yeah with current data uh you’d think well if it’s infinitely if it’s infinitely big then

[00:38:02] eventually you’d see Starlight everywhere but not necessarily because the redshift would would shift down the

[00:38:08] energy and the frequencies so um it might be infinite there might be an infinite number of galaxies in the universe or it might be finite and God

[00:38:15] might have stopped at some distance there’s just there’s no way to know gotcha some people have tried to make a

[00:38:21] theological argument uh that you know because God counts the number of stars and calls them all by their names so

[00:38:26] that would suggest a finite number and I would think maybe not though because yeah because he’s infinite right yeah

[00:38:32] he’s infinite right so he could he could count to infinity and he could have an infinite number of names so I’m I’m not

[00:38:37] persuaded that that’s necessarily the case in the past I thought yeah that’s pretty good now I think I’m not sure I’m

[00:38:44] not sure because there are there are Infinities in math so who knows yeah for those of

[00:38:49] you listening my guess is Dr Jason Lyle and uh if you’re really interested in cosmology he’s the guy to go to and you

[00:38:55] can check out all his stuff at the biblical Science Institute biblicalscienceinstitute.com and uh you

[00:39:02] can read his articles and all that keep up with the James Webb Telescope and all the findings that are happening and make

[00:39:07] sure you get a Biblical interpretation of how things are going um so Jason on another note you know I’m

[00:39:14] sure you get tired of talking this maybe you do I don’t know maybe you don’t but but um but you know the issue that always

[00:39:20] comes up for recent creation proponents is the issue of Starlight and I know you’ve written books on this and you’ve

[00:39:26] written quite a bit about it and people are always asking you know how how do we deal with the Starlight issue

[00:39:31] if you have a star that’s supposedly billions of light years away and creation is only about six thousand

[00:39:37] years how does the star have enough time to get the light from the Star to us within a six thousand year time frame

[00:39:44] even though it’s billions of light years away wouldn’t it need billions of years to get to our eyes and

[00:39:51] um I’m just wondering if uh your your view on that and also

[00:39:56] um if there is any new information that recently people have come up with new theories about uh how that works

[00:40:02] yeah so that well just just as a matter of uh clarification not all creation

[00:40:08] astronomers are agreed on this there’s not a consensus I have my opinion on the issue I think it’s a very uh it’s

[00:40:14] actually a very easy question to answer if you know something about the physics of Einstein the problem is most people don’t know the physics of Einstein which

[00:40:21] makes it very difficult to answer because it sounds like such an obvious problem you know we know what the speed

[00:40:26] of light is and these galaxies even though they’re very far away even at the speed of light it ought to take a billion years for the light to get from

[00:40:31] there to here and the light has gone from there to here because we see them some people have said well God made the the beam of light already on its way and

[00:40:39] I don’t think that’s the answer because we see things happen in space that things even Beyond six thousand light

[00:40:45] years that if God had made the beam of light then that means we’re seeing fictional events events that don’t correspond to anything that actually

[00:40:51] happen stars that we see pictures of stars exploding that never existed uh I

[00:40:56] don’t think that’s right and I don’t think we need that because one of the things that Einstein found is that space and time are a little more

[00:41:02] complicated than people assume we we tend to assume that time is absolute that it flows at a constant rate doesn’t

[00:41:08] it’s not affected by your motion it’s not affected by gravity Einstein found that that was wrong the motion does

[00:41:15] affect the passage of time it’s just that on our human scale we move so slowly compared to the speed of light we

[00:41:21] don’t notice these effects but they come very they become very significant and at the speed of light time doesn’t flow at

[00:41:27] all so from the photons point of view from from the light beam’s point of view it takes no time at all to get from from

[00:41:32] any Galaxy to Earth and anyone who knows anything about the physics of Einstein would agree with that whether they’re secular creationist light does not

[00:41:39] experience time it travels in what’s called a null World line which basically means um if the universe is

[00:41:45] two-dimensional to a light beam it has no it it it it does not experience time they say yes but from the Earth’s point

[00:41:52] of view it would experience time well it it depends on what synchrony convention you’re using a synchrony convention is a

[00:41:58] basic how we decide to Define what constitutes two synchronized clocks when

[00:42:04] they’re separated by some distance now when two clocks are right next to each other it’s easy to tell if they’re synchronized if they’re they’re reading

[00:42:11] the same time at the same time but if they’re separated by a distance um you say well it looks like they’re

[00:42:16] synchronized yes but has the light taken some time to get from there to here and so on and so it turns out that depending

[00:42:22] on how you synchronize clocks even from Earth’s point of view it takes no time at all for the light to get from those

[00:42:27] distant galaxies uh to the Earth and uh that’s that’s a visual synchrony

[00:42:32] convention I I I’ve been calling it The anisotropic synchrony convention because it when you when you apply this standard

[00:42:39] it looks like the speed of light in any One Direction can have a different speed from another Direction so light when

[00:42:44] it’s coming toward an observer can be instantaneous it can travel infinitely fast but when it’s moving away from the

[00:42:49] same Observer it only travels at half C has nothing to do with whether it’s reflected or emitted people get confused

[00:42:57] on that it has to do with how we choose to Define what what now means and Einstein discovered that there is no

[00:43:03] objective way to do that it can’t be done so wow yeah it’s it’s a little bit complex I have written some articles on

[00:43:09] the website on that to try and bring it down and I wrote a book too on the physics of Einstein that gives people enough information about the physics of

[00:43:16] Einstein that they can they can understand this issue and see why it’s not a problem and I would argue that a

[00:43:22] secularist who knows the physics of Einstein well would not argue that that distance Starlight proves an old

[00:43:28] Universe because he would know about synchrony conventions so that’s something that that laymen who do not

[00:43:33] know the science and and want to argue against creation is they tend to use that argument but I would argue that

[00:43:39] that most secular science wouldn’t wow that’s very interesting huh I’ve never heard that before so so

[00:43:46] um can you mention that book again that you wrote on that just for anybody who’s listening who’s interested well it’s called the physics of Einstein and I

[00:43:52] wrote it at sort of two levels I wrote it at a very Layman level anyone who is in high school can read it and

[00:43:59] understand it I think and then there there are in-depth boxes though because the the math involved the relativity is

[00:44:05] just beautiful and I just couldn’t leave it out so you can even you can either skip the math boxes and get the

[00:44:11] qualitative Concepts or you can go through the math boxes and by the way there’s nothing hard about those either anyone who’s passed high school algebra

[00:44:19] can go through those boxes and follow the steps there’s there’s no calculus in it or anything like there’s no there’s

[00:44:24] no hard math in it other than there’s one appendix um but um it’s it’s I think it’s an easy

[00:44:29] read I think it’s an interesting read and it’s just fascinating too just apologetics aside the physics of Einstein is fascinating it really is oh

[00:44:37] yeah because you get into things like time travel and black holes and it’s just cool and so I think my I poured my

[00:44:44] heart and my enthusiasm into that book and I hope that that people will enjoy reading it oh I’m gonna spread that around I’m going to spread that sounds

[00:44:51] fantastic I’ll definitely pick up a copy of that I love all that stuff when I got in a physics class for the first time I

[00:44:56] was just like whoa this is amazing so um God’s creation is phenomenal uh uh

[00:45:02] well Dr Lyle I just want to thank you we’re just about out of time here so um I really appreciate you uh taking the

[00:45:08] time to be with us and uh biblical scienceinstitute.com please check that

[00:45:13] out if you’re listening um that’ll be a big resource for you he’s got all kinds of stuff up there that can help you out

[00:45:18] and encourage you and um keep sharing the truth of creation because because uh I recently read a

[00:45:24] quote quote by Einstein he said uh people of Science and I don’t know where where Einstein ended up I don’t know

[00:45:30] what what his view was ultimately where he ended up but he basically said you cannot deny that there is a super

[00:45:36] intelligence uh the more you study science the more you figure out that hey there’s a God involved here somewhere so and I think a

[00:45:43] lot of scientists come to that conclusion and um so keep studying science keep sharing the truth of God’s

[00:45:49] word and uh thank you for listening today I appreciate you my website’s educateforlife.org you can check it out

[00:45:54] there’s all kinds of fantastic resources on there I actually referenced Dr Lyle quite a bit on my website too so

[00:46:01] um check that out and hopefully that will be useful to you also thanks again uh Dr Lao for being with us really

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