When Persecution Comes with Attorney Charles Crismier

[00:00:00] thanks for being here this evening my name is Kevin Conover and I’m your host on educate for Life radio we’re broadcasting um down here in Southern

[00:00:06] California on K pra 1210 a.m. and FM 106.1 in North County and then of course

[00:00:12] we’re on podcast all over the place Spotify and other platforms my website’s

[00:00:18] educate forlife.org it’s got all kinds of resources to help you uh be a confident Christian confident what know

[00:00:25] what you believe know why you believe it and then be able to share that with the people around you my guest today is

[00:00:30] Chuck Chris Meer and he began his career as a public school teacher from 1967 to

[00:00:36] 1975 served as a civil Private Practice attorney from 1975 to 1994 and he was

[00:00:42] also pastoring a church from 1987 forward he’s authored many books including out of Egypt the power of

[00:00:48] hospitality renewing the soul of America and what we’re going to be talking about this evening is his most recent book

[00:00:56] when persecution comes if you’re watching you can see I’m holding it up here preparing hearts for perilous times

[00:01:02] his we website is save us.org save us.org um Chuck thanks so much for being

[00:01:09] with us this evening Kevin it’s a great privilege to keep back with a good old Southern California boy I spent 30 years

[00:01:16] there myself in so many different ways and uh we’re getting a nice reunion here

[00:01:21] that’s fantastic and where are you now currently in Richmond Virginia the birthplace of the nation the Lord called

[00:01:27] us to leave the practice of law there in California in 1994 to go to the

[00:01:32] birthplace of the nation right here on the shores of the James the birth River of America where we launched our own

[00:01:38] radio program here 30 years ago I love it you know um you have a lot of

[00:01:43] perspective um you know I’m just thinking back when I teach my students we talk about the history of America we

[00:01:49] talk about its Christian Heritage um we give the evidence for this and there has been all kinds of legal battles um as

[00:01:57] you know here in California and specifically in Southern California um they were trying to take a cross off

[00:02:02] mount solidad for a long time that was huge litigation I interviewed an attorney who was litigating they were

[00:02:08] trying to start um Muslim hour in all the San Diego City schools for a while and there’s just uh you know I had a

[00:02:15] friend who not too long ago was fired from a public high school because he wouldn’t call a girl a boy who wanted to

[00:02:22] be called a boy um and the battles in our country right now are very heated uh

[00:02:28] Trump you know has won the election um I’m just curious what your thoughts are on that um did you expect uh that Trump

[00:02:37] was going to win this just recent election I had no actual expectation I

[00:02:43] knew that the battles were fiery uh the tensions were great uh they’ve been

[00:02:48] continuing for a very long time uh it began way back when I first began

[00:02:53] teaching school in Southern California uh back in 1967 the whole

[00:02:59] educational experience was turned on its head beginning in California uh right then and uh the

[00:03:06] things that have happened in the church began right there uh in the schools when

[00:03:13] we were told uh that on the weekends we had to go to special training uh to for

[00:03:20] new speak uh here’s what we had to do uh we had to go for instance to uh Pacific

[00:03:25] pal Palisades on a Saturday to spend our time to re-educated uh for an encounter movement

[00:03:33] that required us all to change the way we would speak from talking about facts

[00:03:38] from talking about truth and now we had to talk about feelings everything had to be I feel I feel I feel well that

[00:03:46] metastasized into the church in the 1970s through the God is love movement and meshed with the church growth

[00:03:53] movement that began also out of Pasadena California where I practiced law and so

[00:03:58] I got a chance to experience for the very Roots how these things began to develop and it’s not just political it’s

[00:04:06] happened in our own churches it’s happened throughout the body of Christ so explain this to us a little bit more

[00:04:12] because you know um obviously in our culture today uh it’s really interesting I just was reading an article today

[00:04:19] there is a push back against uh what people are calling wokeism uh the whole pel culture the the the uh Washington

[00:04:28] Redskins you know their name was changed to the commanders and I was just reading today that there’s now push back against

[00:04:35] that they want to put the name back to the Washington Redskins um which is amazing to me I I well it’s the Native

[00:04:42] Americans that want to do that yeah exactly they’re leading the cause so we

[00:04:47] just gone way too far we played a game uh that was not real uh it’s artificial

[00:04:54] it’s not rooted in truth it’s not rooted in Morality it’s not rooted in history

[00:05:00] it’s rooted in feelings that have been hyperventilated and they do not they’re

[00:05:05] not trustworthy and they do not lead you to wise uh decisions and we’ve seen

[00:05:12] exactly the same thing take hold in the body of Christ by the way Kevin uh so that feelings uh actually began to

[00:05:19] become the Lord while truth and the faith began to take short shrift so

[00:05:25] Christ may have been savior but feelings and self become Lord uh and that

[00:05:32] happened through the church growth movement and coupled with the uh uh God

[00:05:37] is love movement in the 1970s we know God is love but he’s also truth justice

[00:05:43] judgment and so on and we ignore that half of the coin of God and so it led

[00:05:49] the church down a counterfeit Road Road uh in the body of Christ and actually

[00:05:57] sensitized us to the ways of the world so that we began to utilize the ways of

[00:06:03] the world supposedly or ostensibly to gain people for Christ through the church growth movement that metastasized

[00:06:10] into the Seeker sensitive movement in the 1990s which carved away even more

[00:06:16] the corners of truth and the corners of Faith so that in fact uh Jesus may have

[00:06:23] been our savior but self had become our King and that’s such a dangerous thing

[00:06:30] it’s you know a lot of people they didn’t see that they don’t see that uh how does the church guard against this

[00:06:36] as a Christian you know going to a church if for our listeners for those listening how do you guard against this

[00:06:42] uh very you know clever tool the devil uses

[00:06:47] to manipulate people to slightly alter their thinking W which ends up with

[00:06:52] drastic consequences what would your recommendation to Christians and to pastors and to others that want to want

[00:06:58] to protect uh themselves and their congregation from this we have to decide

[00:07:04] which kingdom we’re serving are we serving the kingdoms of men and the glorification of self uh through the

[00:07:11] church growth movement where we have decided that it’s more important to build churches than to make disciples

[00:07:17] Jesus said I’ll build my church you make disciples we decided to uh build

[00:07:22] churches and not make disciples so some of the major movements in Evangelical

[00:07:28] Christianity over over the past 30 years have utterly and totally failed by their own admission as proven even by studies

[00:07:37] that became uh renowned through our country GRE bringing great embarrassment

[00:07:45] uh to these Evangelical movements that were seemed to be the greatest since sliced bread and yet they actually were

[00:07:53] undermining the kingdom of God they were not about the kingdom of God but about elevating the kingdoms of men

[00:08:01] and so what we as Christians have to watch out for is uh like you said making

[00:08:06] the priority our own self uh Worth or self value versus um what does that what

[00:08:14] does it look like if you were to contrast a church where a pastor is doing the right thing versus a church

[00:08:21] where a pastor is not doing the right thing what is the big contrast between the two if somebody was self-reflecting

[00:08:28] and going I want to make sure I’m on the right path how would you contrast the two what would what would be the differences well you’re asking me to

[00:08:34] step on a whole bunch of landmines you know my father was a pastor for 50 years and I pastored for

[00:08:40] 40 years and I know what you guys are like and what we’re all like uh because

[00:08:45] we put our pants on one leg at a time just like everybody else and so we are tempted to the flesh just like everyone

[00:08:52] else and so the spirit of the culture was bigger is better we went from uh mom

[00:08:59] and pop shops to big uh box businesses all over the country and the church did

[00:09:06] the same thing we modeled ourselves uh much like uh Peter Ducker

[00:09:12] encouraged in the secular world uh to follow the ways of the world and that would make us more popular we’ gain

[00:09:19] bigger congregations but we don’t find anything in the scripture talking about

[00:09:25] God uh blessing bigness in fact we find just the opposite Jesus said uh in

[00:09:32] Matthew chapter 7 straight is the gate narrow is the way and precious few they find it but we’ve been saying no we’re

[00:09:38] going to cut away the edges of Truth we’re going to make it easy as possible for people to slide in uh so that we can

[00:09:45] grow bigger churches but then we’ve got to compromise what we say to the people in order to keep those people who are

[00:09:52] not committed to Christ in his kingdom and so it become we’re defining deviancy

[00:09:57] down so to speak and have been doing is for 40 years at least uh I watched it

[00:10:03] happen right from the get-go right there in Southern California and it echoed across the country just like uh no fault

[00:10:09] divorce echoed out of Southern California uh across the country and I was there uh involved in that as a

[00:10:15] practicing attorney so it’s it’s interesting that here I should be as a

[00:10:21] licensed California attorney non-practicing now but should be able to speak to these issues you see one of the

[00:10:28] things that an attorney has to be able to do is diagnose the issues and see through all of the Clutter and all of

[00:10:35] the obfuscation that hides from the truth and uh I believe this is one of the

[00:10:41] primary calls that God has put on my life uh to rebuild the foundations of

[00:10:46] faith and freedom in our country uh but also to speak into the life of the church primarily because that’s God’s

[00:10:53] warmest audience Kevin you know the Bible says go uh judgment is going to B

[00:11:00] begin not in the Pagan’s house but in the house of God and if the if the

[00:11:06] Christian be scarcely saving uh saved then what’s the hope for anybody else so

[00:11:12] I mean even as we speak this very morning I wrote the first chapter of my

[00:11:17] next book dealing with uh how to be able to stand amid uh how to become an

[00:11:24] overcomer how to really be an overcomer in times like this and it’s a challenging thing pastors are afraid to

[00:11:32] deal with these issues because they they’re afraid they’re going to lose

[00:11:37] both their congregations they’re they’re going to vote with their feet because they’re living by their feelings and then

[00:11:44] they’re going to lose the finances that are undermining the mega programs so

[00:11:49] it’s a very difficult thing Jesus said straight As the gate narrow as the way and precious few there will be that find

[00:11:56] it but broad is the way that leads to destruction and that’s what we’ve been motivating ourselves to do to embrace

[00:12:02] the ways of the world and if you think then that this doesn’t lay the foundation for Christians succumbing to

[00:12:09] persecution you got another thing coming we have actually laid the groundwork for the failure of professing Christians to

[00:12:16] stand in this evil day against persecution uh very interesting so so I

[00:12:22] was recently um studying this you know the decline of Christianity In America which I thought was very interesting and

[00:12:27] of course if you look over at at Britain and you look at the status of Christianity there a nation that once

[00:12:34] you know claimed to be over 98% Christian um and yet I believe the stats are under something like 5%

[00:12:42] now um and and we are seeing this decline happening in America i w I was

[00:12:47] reading on this um you you think that the decline is a result of the churches

[00:12:54] focusing on growth rather than truth and focusing more on getting people in the door versus discipleship would you would

[00:13:01] you agree with that I would agree with that but even more prominently in America not nearly as much in Europe but

[00:13:08] more prominently in America in Europe they were just abandoning uh the faith hook Len Sinker

[00:13:17] uh the Baltic states uh UK France uh

[00:13:22] there they’ve all virtually abandoned the Christian faith and uh so but in

[00:13:28] America well because well they were formerly

[00:13:33] known as Christian Europe remember uh that was rooted in Roman

[00:13:39] Catholicism but there is a Europe sees itself its vision of itself is we’re

[00:13:47] cool we’re politically cool uh we we’re free people uh we we’re not governed by

[00:13:55] that Authority thing called the Bible we’re just not in to that uh we’re our

[00:14:00] own authority we’re Europe don’t you understand that and so now

[00:14:06] interestingly the government of France is about ready to collapse Europe is the

[00:14:11] UK is in deep trouble a mayor of London is a is a practicing Mor uh Muslim and

[00:14:19] uh Germany is uh in in very dangerous

[00:14:24] ground because they have imported uh so much in terms of

[00:14:30] disbelievers unbelievers and counter Believers that uh there’s no more real

[00:14:37] Europe even existing what is the result of that well the the chief rabbis in

[00:14:43] France and in Germany and in uh uh the

[00:14:49] Netherlands have just called for Jewish people to leave their countries while

[00:14:55] it’s time because the danger of anti-Semitism has become so great that

[00:15:02] there’s no more hope for the Jewish people in Europe well that being the

[00:15:08] case we know that’s exactly what God Said through His prophets was going to take place and he was going to bring

[00:15:14] them back to the land uh not because they were so great or because they were honoring him but because he gave his

[00:15:21] word that that’s what he was going to do and so he’s doing that and there’s going to be a lot of other repercussions come

[00:15:27] from that but the same is true in America look what’s happened through anti-Semitism in our colleges our

[00:15:34] universities and uh the leaders of our universities it has become a plague on

[00:15:40] this country embarrassingly uh to the rest of the world this is America you’ve got to be

[00:15:47] kidding me and the Bible makes it very clear that

[00:15:52] anti-Semitism the coming against the Jew is the first stage of Christian persecu

[00:16:00] as as a I had uh one of the Premier Well the premier English-speaking Orthodox

[00:16:06] Jew uh in radio on my program from Jerusalem just six months ago and her

[00:16:13] name is Tamar Yona and she said to me Chuck uh yes they’re coming after us

[00:16:20] today the Saturday people but very soon they’re coming after the Sunday people

[00:16:26] that’s how she put it yeah so yes that’s where it is and that’s why I believe

[00:16:31] that the Lord put it on my heart Kevin to actually write a book like no other

[00:16:38] book printed in our time called when persecution comes not if persecution

[00:16:43] comes but when persecution comes preparing hearts for perilous

[00:16:49] times yeah and I uh for those of you just listening uh this is um my guest

[00:16:54] today is uh Chuck Chris Meer and he is um uh author and save save us.org saave

[00:17:03] us.org is his website if you would like to look at a bunch of his books I have a bunch of a few different questions here

[00:17:09] for you um one of the things uh you mentioned is or one of the things I

[00:17:15] think is interesting is you know when when Trump got elected originally I did not anticipate that I thought he was

[00:17:21] going to lose to Hillary until there was a something that popped out in the news and I think right well everybody thought

[00:17:26] that yeah and then and then um now he’s won again and I my question for you is

[00:17:32] this you know in the Bible when Nineveh repents when Jonah goes in you know God

[00:17:37] relents and then eventually Nineveh is uh overthrown they’re destroyed but right God does relent for that time do

[00:17:44] you think that uh this is a situation that’s similar to Nineveh in which there

[00:17:50] is this um relenting of God and that we have an opportunity here or do you think

[00:17:55] this is just par for the course and it’s not something that’s actually um moving

[00:18:01] us in a better Direction with with uh you know what’s happening but but it’s just um I don’t know maybe illusionary

[00:18:08] uh what we’re experiencing all right that that’s a good question and I think many are asking that question uh God is

[00:18:15] a Grace of Mer a god of grace and mercy uh Grace is not the same as Mercy Mercy

[00:18:22] is what you get when you’re dead Bank guilty and admit it uh then you’re you’re entitled perhaps

[00:18:29] maybe to God’s mercy or the judge’s Mercy Grace is something very different

[00:18:35] Grace is not just unmerited favor Grace is God’s enabling power equipping us to

[00:18:42] do his will so uh in our situation where

[00:18:47] we have reneged on the authority of God and his word from the church house to the White House to the schoolhouse uh

[00:18:55] every other house the White House as well uh we are a nation in profound

[00:19:01] Rebellion everywhere Authority no we are our own authority Jesus may be a savior

[00:19:10] but he’s actually become little more than a mascot in the church today that’s

[00:19:16] what he is we use his name but we don’t use it appropriately and so here we are uh

[00:19:24] Donald Trump coming in very much uh more in the

[00:19:29] in the nature of Nebuchadnezzar there of Babylon remember that and God used

[00:19:34] Nebuchadnezzar a pagan King who actually recognized God and his

[00:19:40] authority uh was pretty proud about it but he still recognized God and his authority and because of that God used

[00:19:47] him Jeremiah the prophet said that je that uh Nebuchadnezzar was God’s servant

[00:19:53] to do what was necessary to judge God’s Own people the app of his eye Israel

[00:20:00] well the same is true in a sense here in America today I believe that God allowed

[00:20:08] facilitated whatever term you want to use uh Donald Trump to come in for a

[00:20:15] moment in time you might call it a spiritual hyphenation a time when God is giving

[00:20:23] this nation and the church one last opport Unity to come clean with him now

[00:20:31] even Donald Trump said that he is going to come against Christian persecution around the world that’s what he said

[00:20:38] yeah you haven’t heard that from any other leaders but you heard that from Donald Trump he actually recently said that so there there’s something there uh

[00:20:47] whether or not he is a true follower of Jesus Christ there are many who think that he uh came to the Lord some

[00:20:53] prominent pastors have said that uh I’m not here to judge one way or the other

[00:20:59] but what I do know is that he has a very unique ability to lead and to see

[00:21:05] through corruption to see through uh what has gripped the mind and heart of

[00:21:12] the American people and kept us from reality and so he’s giving us a serious

[00:21:19] jolt of reality such that the nations of the world and their leaders are making

[00:21:24] their way rapidly to Mar Lago yeah why they sense here’s a man under Authority

[00:21:31] here’s a man in Authority something that we have not seen for years and years and

[00:21:38] uh so this is a hyphenation that God has given us much like uh God saying look

[00:21:45] I’m a God of due process by the way that’s where we get the whole idea of due process from God he said I will not

[00:21:52] do anything but what I first deliver my message through my servants the prophet

[00:21:59] that’s what this book is this book is a message as a prophet to the church in

[00:22:06] America because persecution is coming to prepare the way of the Lord because we

[00:22:13] are in desperate need for that and my next book that I just started on today

[00:22:18] about becoming an overcomer is like a sequel to that we’re not prepared Kevin

[00:22:23] we are just not prepared and God is giving us a few years here to be to

[00:22:30] really take seriously whether we mean what we say say what we mean and we

[00:22:36] really do want Revival in this country up until now I’ve been part of almost

[00:22:41] every major prayer movement in this country for the past 40 years from coast

[00:22:46] to coast in the major Gatherings and I tell you we have not

[00:22:53] been serious not been sincere I sat down with one of the Premier prayer leaders

[00:22:58] of the in 1996 in St Louis it was a gathering of 4,000 Christian leaders to pray for

[00:23:05] the church in America and I sat down with one of the

[00:23:10] Premier uh prayer leaders and I said why is it that we’ve had all of these national days of prayer and using 2

[00:23:17] Chronicles 7:14 If my people which are called by my name would humble themselves and pray and seek my face and

[00:23:23] turn from their wicked ways that I’d hear from Heaven forgive their sin and hear their land I said we’ve had these themes uh beginning with heal our land

[00:23:31] so in other words we want to Leap Frog over P Vault over all God’s conditions

[00:23:37] to get the end result without doing what God says then we said oh uh he wants us

[00:23:43] to to uh pray okay well we can do that but a aw toer said prayer is no

[00:23:49] substitute for obedience so that we didn’t hate like the word obey in fact pastors on my on

[00:23:57] my program for the past last eight years have admitted that obey is a four-letter

[00:24:02] word of the church the most hated word of the church today it’s the one thing that Jesus said pleases him if you obey

[00:24:11] me if you don’t do my will you’re not going to get the blessing of my father

[00:24:16] you’re not going to get my blessing you got to do my will okay so we have a

[00:24:22] situation now where it has become so severe that as I sat in 19

[00:24:30] 96 with this foremost prayer leader I said why after all these years have we

[00:24:36] not had one focus on turn from our Wicked Ways on repent would you like to

[00:24:41] know what the answer was three three words it’s too

[00:24:48] negative the growth the seeking the growth exactly so what was that all about we were about

[00:24:56] marketing and not the master so the market has become the master and

[00:25:02] the master has become little more than a mascot while we pretend and God sees through that

[00:25:09] pretense so he says look I gave you guys an opportunity just like I gave

[00:25:15] Israel I chose them as the apple of my eye but they did not do my will now as a

[00:25:20] gentile Nation I’m giving you a similar opportunity what are you going to do with it you’re at the end of the road

[00:25:27] you’re at the end of the road I’m giving you one last opportunity that’s how I see this that’s that’s great uh you know um

[00:25:35] yeah what the you know in the Old Testament he says these people worship me with their lips but their hearts are far from me that’s what uh struck me and

[00:25:42] and uh then to love God is to obey God um really that’s what love is is that

[00:25:48] obedience and uh you know you you also wrote a book um and I’m I’m

[00:25:55] gon to segue to this book but you wrote a book on hospitality which I thought was really interesting I don’t I don’t

[00:26:01] hear of many books that are regard that have to do with hospitality in particular but I just wanted our

[00:26:06] listeners to hear your thoughts on this because I feel like it’s very significant and relevant I know when I

[00:26:12] was growing up one of the things that I loved about growing up in in the church that I grew up in was that every Sunday

[00:26:19] uh my parents would have people over they were such a good example to me about uh the fellowship and the love

[00:26:25] they’d invite people over to have picnics the whole Church would have a giant picnic and they’d invite uh

[00:26:30] non-believers to come and spend time together and there was just this real like just loving um expression of love

[00:26:38] going on but it was so wholesome it was so it felt so right to me from the

[00:26:44] Christian Perspective and it was magnetic um and when I saw your book about Hospitality that’s what um came to

[00:26:50] my mind um can you share um your thought why you wrote a book specifically on Hospitality as Christians yeah my wife

[00:26:57] and I did that that and it’s the only book well my wife and I did two books together one called lasting love uh

[00:27:04] enduring secrets for marital success and the other is the power of hospitality an open heart open hand an open home will

[00:27:12] change your world it began I was the most unlikely person to do this I grew

[00:27:18] at a pastor’s home and for the first seven eight years of our marriage my wife was so disappointed that I didn’t

[00:27:24] have any clue about Hospitality I didn’t she had seen it in families that she grew up with in her

[00:27:30] church and she wanted that and I just didn’t have a clue so it it took the

[00:27:36] Holy Spirit to reveal that to me uh in the word and as I began to seriously get

[00:27:41] into the word I discovered that hospitality is at the very heart of the Gospel in fact the very gospel itself

[00:27:48] here we are uh preparing for the first Advent celebrating the first Advent of Christ which was all about God’s

[00:27:55] Hospitality he saw in the fullness of time he he knew that we were estranged

[00:28:01] from him and he was not willing that we be uh estranged from him Hospitality means to reach to strangers and uh uh he

[00:28:09] he knew that we were AR stranged from him so in the fullness of time he stretched forth his hand of hospitality

[00:28:16] because of his heart of hospitality sent forth his only begotten son into a a

[00:28:21] very strange place for him to extend an invitation what was the invitation an

[00:28:27] invitation to his home he said I go to prepare a place for you that where I might be where I am there you might be

[00:28:34] also so then we find going all the way back into the book of uh Exodus we find

[00:28:42] the spirit of hospitality being induced by God uh into the heart and mind of

[00:28:48] Israel they were to treat strangers as one with them if the

[00:28:54] stranger would be part with them in their culture and uh we find that Spirit

[00:29:00] pervading the Old Testament into the New Testament well here’s what’s interesting if you go to Romans chapter

[00:29:07] 12 where Paul gives a distillation of the essence of what it means to live as

[00:29:15] a Christian Christian practice in our attitudes our behavior and our thinking one of the things that he says is we

[00:29:22] must be given to hospitality he doesn’t say gifted in almost all the teaching of

[00:29:29] pastors and Par church leaders has said no it’s gifted in no it’s not gifted in

[00:29:34] it’s gifted to given to hospitality in other words it’s something we do in

[00:29:40] obedience as a because we’ve been changed on the inside because of the

[00:29:45] hospitality we receive from Christ and so the same Apostle Paul says through

[00:29:51] Timothy he says look uh anybody who aspires to be a leader in The Church Must first be given to hospital ity in

[00:29:59] other words not gifted in given to then he says to Titus a little Pastor in the

[00:30:06] making he says look if you’re going to have a be a leader in the church you

[00:30:12] have to be a lover of hospitality then Peter puts it in a

[00:30:19] different way he says look the end of all things is at hand therefore use

[00:30:27] hospitality without grudging it’s the only place in the Bible we’re told to use something so hospitality is really

[00:30:36] God’s Divine gift for us to use to

[00:30:41] express his love in tangible ways to convert a word that otherwise seems to

[00:30:48] have no tangible meaning into tangibility in the mind and heart and life of

[00:30:54] people I love that we’ve used it it changed our whole life it changed our marriage when I began to see this Vision

[00:31:01] that’s so wonderful and and Chuck do you think that that is um one of the components you know when you’re saying

[00:31:08] that God has given us kind of this reprieve this pause um with with the election of trump and so forth do you

[00:31:15] think that that’s something that we we need to embrace and is that is that the opposite of the church growth movement

[00:31:21] what how does that relate to what we’ve been talking about already that has nothing to do with the church growth movement the church grow movement is a

[00:31:30] uh a fleshly based movement it’s

[00:31:35] marketing what we have an opportunity to do is reject the marketing of the gospel

[00:31:44] and the revealing of the Gospel by living it out in spirit and in truth

[00:31:49] which our country has not seen and this is households

[00:31:54] embracing um the the the encouragement and command of God to be hospitable uh

[00:32:01] towards people so that they can experience the love of Christ that’s one

[00:32:06] aspect of it uh but in reality we won’t do that if we’re not going to be

[00:32:12] obedient you see that’s just one aspect of obedience God wants us to embrace all

[00:32:18] aspects of obedience which begins with believing that his word is absolute

[00:32:24] Authority if we don’t believe that we won’t obey

[00:32:29] and the Bible says to obey is better than all of our religious rituals and sacrifices and to hearken than the fat

[00:32:36] of rams so we we have to come back to realizing that God is

[00:32:43] God religious games anymore amen pastors are going to have to get serious there’s going to have to

[00:32:50] be some major repentance in the minds and hearts of pastors they’re going to have to reneg reject the spirit of this

[00:32:58] age that has driven the church growth movement it has been at the heart of

[00:33:03] mega churches that have not been fostering new true

[00:33:10] disciples they are people who are coming into our our congregations believing

[00:33:16] that they are saved that they’re uh Children of the kingdom when they’ve never confronted sin never confessed it

[00:33:23] and never repented of it because of a false understanding of the word grace

[00:33:30] for 30 years we have inculcated in the mind and heart of our country and of

[00:33:36] people in our churches that Grace is God’s willingness to wink at your sin so you don’t have to confess it anymore you

[00:33:43] don’t need Mercy you just need more Grace it’s not true Grace at the heart

[00:33:50] of it is God’s enabling power for us to do his will Jesus said in Matthew chapter seven

[00:33:58] not everyone who says unto me Lord Lord inhabiting our churches is going to

[00:34:03] herit the kingdom only those he said who do the will of my father that’s

[00:34:10] obedience and obedience is not just uh making a confession of Faith at a billy

[00:34:16] gr route it’s living out the faith in both spirit and in truth and that’s

[00:34:24] what’s not happening in this country and God knows it we were not fooling him at all and he

[00:34:31] says look I’m going to give you one more chance one more

[00:34:38] chance now we’ve had several after 911 people were flooding back to church

[00:34:45] they said Church would never again be the same but you know what Time Magazine said about it it was the it was the most

[00:34:52] unbelievable article cover story April 5th 1993

[00:34:58] Time Magazine said Americans were flooding back to church church would never again be the same why because

[00:35:04] Americans were looking for a customade God one made in their own

[00:35:09] image you couldn’t hear the pastor say it but Time Magazine did WOW pierced spoke like a donkey Into

[00:35:17] the Heart of God’s people and the pastors but they didn’t get it guess

[00:35:23] what in the in the uh uh South in six eight of the states of the South the

[00:35:30] Bible Belt of America 25 years ago the

[00:35:35] divorce rate in the Bible Belt was 50% higher than the nation as a

[00:35:41] whole so great was that problem that the governors of six Southern States

[00:35:46] declared a marital emergency did the pastors do it no

[00:35:52] because they were afraid of the people divorce had become commonplace

[00:35:58] we conform to the ways of the culture coming right out of Southern

[00:36:03] California Ronald Reagan said and confessed that that no false divorce act that he uh signed was the worst thing he

[00:36:11] ever did God knows that he’s not playing

[00:36:17] games it’s time for us to repent and then look Kevin if we can’t get a hold

[00:36:24] of this simple truth how in the world are we going to escape the mark of the

[00:36:31] beast when it comes and the pressure that comes behind it and that’s what I was going to ask you next is you know as

[00:36:37] it relates to persecution so you’re going to have uh Christians and we go

[00:36:42] through you know eventually judgment comes because God’s judgment you know

[00:36:47] isn’t stilled forever um and like you said he gives you a chance but um so

[00:36:54] when persecution comes what is it why was this book so necessary what is it that you are concerned about about

[00:37:01] Christians that when you say they’re not ready what is it you think they’re just going to Cave into it uh absolutely

[00:37:08] already are caving when you say so so Co you know when Co came around people

[00:37:14] really bowed down to whatever Authority told them to do whatever and um is that

[00:37:21] what you’re talking about is that the people are going to cave in the same way to the persecution because they don’t

[00:37:27] want to face the persecution in the same way that they bowed down to covid the regulations that turned out to be

[00:37:33] completely worthless you could say that Co was a test case it was like a test case but it

[00:37:40] wasn’t a test case just for persecution it was a test case for

[00:37:46] globalism what we’re really dealing with Kevin is the move toward a new world

[00:37:52] order globalism which will bring about the final persecution of the

[00:38:01] Saints it’s already happening do you know what the number one reason why

[00:38:06] Donald Trump was so hated even in 2015 when he came down the golden escalator

[00:38:14] because he made one statement we’re going to make America great again that was like a declaration of war to the

[00:38:20] globalists both Republican and Democrat they hated him for that they said no

[00:38:25] we’re right on the near Edge of a new world order we’re rebuilding the Tower of

[00:38:31] Babel how dare you say this again that’s why they did everything they could to

[00:38:36] kill him to to kill him economically to kill him legally and to kill him

[00:38:43] physically they hate his living guts because of that one thing but you say

[00:38:50] well that’s just a political thing oh no that’s a spiritual thing Donald Trump may not realize it’s a spiritual thing

[00:38:57] because he’s being used I Believe by God to accomplish

[00:39:03] something that allows us to respond as Christians as true followers of Jesus

[00:39:09] Christ in other words to get it to really understand what the Dynamics

[00:39:14] really are I’ve got a whole chapter in this book called about the the the Beast

[00:39:20] of blasphemy it’s the longest chapter in the book and it helps us to understand

[00:39:26] the Dynamics Kevin what is really taking place and just put it this way

[00:39:33] uh persecution is the result of

[00:39:39] pressure pressure the word pressure comes from the Greek word

[00:39:45] fpus and the Greek word fpus is translated in our Bibles

[00:39:54] tribulation what if we just substituted the word tribul ation for the word

[00:39:59] pressure pressure is what is driving will drive professing Christians to

[00:40:06] capitulate and collapse in their faith and the greater the pressure the greater

[00:40:13] the effectiveness of persecution to bring people to fall away from their

[00:40:20] confession Paul talked about it he said there’s going to be a great falling away before the identity of the Antichrist is

[00:40:26] revealed people may sayoh you know what I’ve been told we’re out of here we don’t have to

[00:40:32] worry about any of those things if you really believe that and you say that what you’re doing is nullifying every

[00:40:39] word of warning that Jesus gave the Apostle Peter gave the Apostle Paul gave

[00:40:45] the Apostle John and the Apostle James all who warned that you’re going to have to deal with this issue and then Paul

[00:40:52] says according to like you’re saying the sequel to this book we are not of those those who are crushed but of those who

[00:40:59] overcome exactly so what what is that in relation to this who are the people that

[00:41:05] over I I mean we can see the people that fall away and the people who are the people that overcome and what does that mean for for our listeners for

[00:41:11] Christians in general how do they become somebody who overcomes and not somebody who caves to uh the pressure to

[00:41:19] capitulate well interestingly uh if we look to this famous phrase and they

[00:41:25] overcame by the blood of the Lamb by the word of their testimony and

[00:41:31] that’s where the quote stops for most pastors but that’s not what the quote is

[00:41:37] the quote is and they overcame by the blood of the Lamb by the word of their testimony and

[00:41:44] they love not their lives under death that’s the Crux yeah so Paul said

[00:41:52] for me to live as Christ and to die as gain

[00:41:57] so in other words we have to come to the place where we are gripped in the Deep

[00:42:03] recesses of our minds and hearts that we’re our sit our primary citizenship is

[00:42:09] not on Tera firmer or even in the United States of America even though I love my country I have more patriotic ties and

[00:42:17] sweaters and jackets than anybody else on the planet probably more than Donald Trump okay but I tell you that my

[00:42:26] ultimate Allegiance not just casually but in reality and increasingly my

[00:42:31] allegiance is to the kingdom of God and his righteousness that’s where the problem

[00:42:37] lies and persecution will test our Allegiance and if we’re going to

[00:42:42] overcome we’re going to overcome in three summary ways number one by the

[00:42:48] blood of the lamb in other words we’re crucified with

[00:42:53] Christ right yeah and we uh are are the word of Our Testimony

[00:43:02] in other words we don’t reneg on our faith Jesus said If you deny me before

[00:43:08] men I will deny you before my Father which is in heaven and you can’t deny him with your fingers

[00:43:14] crossed yeah okay and then finally that leads to an ultimate

[00:43:23] pressure and that is that many will lose their lives lives for the sake of the

[00:43:30] gospel and if you’re not willing if if your life means more to

[00:43:36] you than your allegiance to Christ you will not make it into the

[00:43:41] kingdom the Bible’s very clear about that we don’t like to teach that because

[00:43:47] it doesn’t build big churches but it will make strong disciples yeah there’s this great quote

[00:43:53] by uh Irwin mcmanis he says uh Jesus death wasn’t to free us from dying but to free us from the fear of death Jesus

[00:44:00] came to liberate us so that we could die up front and then live Jesus Christ wants to take us to places where only

[00:44:06] dead men and women can go uh which I thought was an awesome quote that’s it’s

[00:44:11] taken right out of the New Testament uh Jesus came to deliver us those who were

[00:44:16] through fear of death were all their lifetimes subject to bondage exactly so um do you think that

[00:44:24] it’s possible that if if the United States repents if the churches repent if

[00:44:31] there is a move of God in which uh we see increasing obedience um do you think

[00:44:38] that God will relent and that there will be a time of um evangelism that takes

[00:44:43] place do you think that or do you think that this is something that is a foregone conclusion uh and it’s

[00:44:50] inevitable at this point I don’t believe for one thing that we’re in any place to do evangelism

[00:44:57] what God is trying to do is evangelize his church you see we’re not any we’re just

[00:45:04] Hypocrites yeah and the world sees it they think we’re playing games and we

[00:45:10] are because we’re not serious with God God says okay I want you to get serious with me okay and he said that in Malachi

[00:45:18] chapter 2 for instance to the religious leaders of the day he said look you guys are divorcing your wives with impunity

[00:45:25] and yet you’re whining and crying and belly aing on my water my altar I’m not going to hear a single word you have to

[00:45:31] say you’re a bunch of Hypocrites you’re dealing treacherously with the wife of your youth three times he said you’re

[00:45:37] dealing treacherously that’s a word akin to the word treason in other words they’re divorcing their spouses was as

[00:45:43] if they were committing treason against God see we don’t hear the word taught

[00:45:49] this way why because it doesn’t seem to Market

[00:45:55] well let me give you an idea several years ago 15 years ago I was

[00:46:00] interviewing a a musician Michael Cart he had written a small book called a uh

[00:46:06] a dangerous cross and during the interview he said Chuck I think I need to interrupt and tell you and your

[00:46:13] listeners what happened to me when I tried to get this book published now this is about 15 years ago he said I

[00:46:19] took it to a half a dozen Christian Publishers and every one of them said the same thing to me we can’t print this

[00:46:26] book because the cross doesn’t sell well

[00:46:32] anymore I thought we used to sing a song At The Cross at the cross where I first saw the light well now we can’t see the light

[00:46:39] anymore because we’re denying the cross and If you deny the cross you’re denying the one hung on the cross so you’re not

[00:46:47] willing to be crucified with Christ it doesn’t Mark a will anymore you get the point and if that be

[00:46:54] true Kevin we’re not PR prepared as a professing group of people that we call

[00:47:01] the body of Christ we’re not prepared to endure anything um well this is a a much needed

[00:47:09] message thank you yeah absolutely and I think you know I think that it’s

[00:47:15] something that if people were to hear it more often I think that it would be something

[00:47:20] that people would respond to I think well that’s why you and I are talking yeah and so I think you know a lot of

[00:47:27] people are um looking for leaders to to actually call them out and say hey stand

[00:47:34] up and be counted um stop messing around you know it’s like a good honestly it’s like a good coach um who comes in and

[00:47:41] says we’re serious here uh don’t be late to practice don’t goof off during practice get it together and if you want

[00:47:48] to be a part of the team then start doing what you’re supposed to do and well thank you very much that’s why a lot of people call me Co coach chrism

[00:47:55] which by the way I did did for five years in Southern California there you go what did you coach I coached in a

[00:48:02] junior high school and they actually it was so effective they made me the athletic director for the district and I

[00:48:08] hadn’t even had any uh coaching uh in in college but apparently God gifted me in

[00:48:16] doing that and I’m still doing it today Kevin it’s it’s the attitude you know

[00:48:21] it’s the attitude of holding people accountable it’s an awesome thing and um and I think people it you know when they

[00:48:27] get it and uh they have a coach that loves them but holds them to a high standard and and that’s what we’re

[00:48:33] called to do for one another too so by the way can I just say this the three mid middle chapters of this book are uh

[00:48:40] really the heart of the book uh one of the chapters is for parents and the next chapter is for

[00:48:48] fathers and the third chapter is for pastors and they’re all dealing with

[00:48:55] what do we do how can we become the engines of uh

[00:49:02] strength and uh endurance for our children our grandchildren and our

[00:49:09] families fathers he need to come to the place of take the spiritual leader of the home and then pastors need to up

[00:49:16] their atie to get serious with God because the people are looking to them as fathers and if they fail like Eli did

[00:49:24] in fathering his kids which our pastors are failing to do I don’t care who that what their name is I don’t care how

[00:49:31] popular they are they’re failing because they’re not telling the whole truth

[00:49:36] they’re only saying what they think the people want to hear so uh for those of you listening um

[00:49:44] my my guest has been Chuck chrisme and uh this is his most recent book um I

[00:49:50] highly recommend you check it out and all of his books um are just so relevant to what the church is going through and

[00:49:57] what we as Christians are going through and what it’s very relevant to the time so thank you for what you’re doing thank

[00:50:02] you for your ministry uh Chuck really appreciate it and uh I pray that it expands and more people get to hear um

[00:50:08] your call well you’ve done an interview very different than any of the others that I’ve had and I I really thank you

[00:50:14] for it it we we covered a lot of ground here Kevin that’s good good and we did it

[00:50:20] with a smile yeah well I’m always I’m always uh I’m always ready to learn and

[00:50:25] and trying to be humble and and let the Lord speak to me as well and so um I appreciate it and um God bless your

[00:50:32] ministry I really enjoyed uh talking with you and um just hearing your heart and your wisdom so thank you anytime

[00:50:39] Kevin anytime absolutely save us.org is his website uh feel free to check that

[00:50:45] out we’ll be back again next week uh with another fantastic interview I hope you’ve been encouraged um when you’ve

[00:50:50] been listening for those of you who have tuned in and uh please pass the word around um we’ve got a reprieve here

[00:50:56] let’s take advantage of it um by God’s goodness and his kindness so uh thanks again chuck with for being with us and I

[00:51:03] hope a great night bless you thank you when you need tires or service count on

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