The Reformation: A Watershed Moment – Steve Whitten

[00:00:00] and now here’s your host Kevin Conover bring your time

[00:00:06] welcome to educate for life I’m your host Kevin Conover my website is join dot educate for life Joe our G it’s 40

[00:00:13] online classes defending the truth of the Bible and and we’re glad to have you

[00:00:19] here on the show today it’s Saturday well actually the show is gonna air on Saturday I’m doing a live broadcast on YouTube here it’s actually a what is

[00:00:27] today Tuesday Wednesday Wednesday Wednesday okay it’s all blending together enough I’m wrapping up school

[00:00:32] my guest today is dr. is soon to be dr. Steve Witten and you’re in the process

[00:00:39] of getting your doctorate in theology okay that’s fantastic and your your expertise is you’re a historian is that

[00:00:45] right a theologian and historian okay great and so one of the big historical events if if you’re keeping track of the

[00:00:52] news or anything this is the 500th anniversary of the Reformation and

[00:00:57] Martin Luther yes yeah October 31st yeah so that’s a yeah Halloween is there a reason that those

[00:01:04] coincide or no reason at all no no it’s just it’s Reformation days yeah Reformation day that’s right so

[00:01:11] depending on where you’re coming from right but uh so I wanted to talk to you today Steve about the significance of

[00:01:17] the Reformation in Martin Luther you know there’s a lot of controversy of course about Martin Luther I had a guest on not too long ago I believe Corey

[00:01:25] Marsh who we talked about Martin Luther actually was very anti-semitic and you

[00:01:32] know so he’s definitely no perfect person and yet he’s such a very significant historical figure and so we

[00:01:39] wanted to talk about that and why you know Catholicism and the Catholic Church

[00:01:45] is a huge influence for good in our country as far as the pro-life movement and things like this and and and there’s

[00:01:51] a lot of god-fearing Catholics out there who love the Lord on the other hand a lot of what Catholicism teaches

[00:01:57] Protestant Christianity disagrees with and so I wanted to get some clarity for our guests on that why why there’s still

[00:02:04] you know lack of unity on certain issues as well as what Martin Luther was so

[00:02:10] upset about that would cause the split between the Church eventually and the the Catholic

[00:02:17] Church and so can you give us a little bit of your background how did you get interested in history and theology well

[00:02:23] I’ve always been interested in theology ever since I became a Christian and after I graduated from San Diego

[00:02:28] Christian College with my undergraduate degree in Bible and history oh and did you become a Christian I became a Christian in 1973 okay and how old were

[00:02:36] you at the time 23 23 so what what led you to decide to become a Christian at 23 years old I don’t think I began to

[00:02:43] think abstractly until after I graduated from high school and so then this is the basic my students have the same problem

[00:02:49] yeah the basic questions of life where did I come from why am I here where am I going yeah as where before I never

[00:02:55] thought about those after I became a college student and especially when I started studying philosophy I started to

[00:03:02] those questions began to bother me more and more and so since I was going to school in the 70s I read everything from

[00:03:08] Eastern religions The Beatles had their own Yogi and so I I studied Hinduism

[00:03:14] Buddhism a little bit of Islam and basically you know they they all said that I had the ability within myself to

[00:03:20] be a happy person and to experience fulfillment in life and that’s kind of that for a lot of people out there

[00:03:26] that’s the end goal is I want to be happy I want to be fulfilled right there right there doesn’t seem to be a greater

[00:03:31] goal for a lot of people I think its inherent in human nature yeah and so but

[00:03:36] I wasn’t and I realized I think more and more that there was something missing

[00:03:42] and I had some friends in the group that I was with is on a singing group and they gave me a Bible a New Testament

[00:03:47] just New Testament in Psalms now real a little bit more background here so were your parents were you brought up in a

[00:03:53] Christian home no I was I was not he’s not a religion fact my mom used to sleep in on Sunday mornings I knew if she woke

[00:03:59] up she’d make me go to church so I was very quiet that’s great and so they gave me a pocket New Testament Psalms

[00:04:05] proverbs on a New Testament and they said just read this and so you know I

[00:04:10] was desperate I was very very depressed person very unhappy yeah and so as I began to read the New Testament the

[00:04:17] first thing they said read the book of Romans and so I read Romans and and I remember reading Romans 3:23 where it

[00:04:23] said all have sinned and come short of the glory of God yeah and you know the book of Romans talks about our depravity and our

[00:04:29] sinfulness and it really makes a strong case and when I read it I was offended I mean like who are you to say that I’m a

[00:04:34] sinner I thought about like Mother Teresa and all the people how could they all be sinners yeah but it hit me like a

[00:04:40] ton of bricks because I knew it was true Wow even though I understood everybody was not equally depraved I knew that we all

[00:04:47] were well and the more I thought about it the more yet it offended you it offended me because I didn’t want to

[00:04:52] think of myself in those terms but how do you what do you say to somebody I mean we’ve got a lot of people that are

[00:04:58] gonna be listening to this program what do you say to somebody who says yeah that’s right who are you to tell me that

[00:05:03] were evil you know who are you to make that statement who is the Bible to make that statement I would just ask them to

[00:05:09] consider whether it’s true or not yeah I mean the sin nature can manifest itself in everything from a person who’s a

[00:05:16] serial killer to a person who has a selfish thought yeah I don’t think anyone would try to argue that human

[00:05:23] beings don’t have an issue with selfishness greed pride anger all of those things are present in all human

[00:05:29] beings yeah in fact I think in terms of debating the claims of the gospel that’s probably the easiest one to approve

[00:05:36] empirically yeah a read that read the newspaper look at the internet the history of the human race is a history

[00:05:42] of sinful people yeah and so as I began this it’s true because what I’m sometimes I talk to people down at the

[00:05:48] beach you know we we pass out hot dogs and water down at the beach and I don’t really have to do much persuasion to

[00:05:54] convince people that you know they’re guilty and they have they’re sinners

[00:05:59] basically yes and so that’s a really a powerful point that you make there but but so I pick up again where you left

[00:06:06] off and so after I began to consider that I began to be more and more depressed and I remember just sitting in

[00:06:14] my room one day reading the Bible and I did this for a period of about 3 to 6 months hours a day without without

[00:06:21] becoming a Christian without becoming a Christian it was the first time I ever read any religious literature that told me the truth about myself Wow and so the

[00:06:29] more I considered it I think Kevin at some point in that process I became a believer because I was sitting there in

[00:06:34] my room one day and I was talking to the Lord yeah and I think I remember thinking what am i doing yeah but I think I crossed over

[00:06:42] without even I did without even realizing that that’s what was happening and there was a crusade that came in

[00:06:47] town later on and I went for it and I made a profession of faith but I think I already believed and that was in 1973

[00:06:53] now and the Lord has been faithful for all these years grateful that is so cool

[00:06:58] so so you’re 23 years old you’ve decided that the Bible is true did you immediately jump into hey I want to I

[00:07:04] want to be a historian and a theology expert no actually I believed the gospel

[00:07:10] was true and then I started getting involved in a church and and I got it was associated with some people that

[00:07:16] were really engaged in discipleship and they helped to even increase my love of the word and they showed me how to study

[00:07:21] it which is really important here’s another question I want to kind of throw out here that pertains to what you just said what do you say to the person that

[00:07:28] says hey I can be a Christian without going to church because you know there’s a lot of people that believe in Jesus Christ they believe in God they even

[00:07:34] believe in the Bible but they don’t go to church on a regular basis because they’ve been hurt or upset by organized

[00:07:41] religion and and you know some of the troubles that come with being in a body how do you respond to somebody that’s in

[00:07:48] that place first of all I’d say I agree with them yeah I mean going to church doesn’t make you a Christian you know it

[00:07:54] is the consequence of wanting to serve the Lord in the context of a healthy body where you can serve the Lord so I

[00:08:01] would say yes becoming a Christian is a separate issue from going to church and certainly the

[00:08:06] thing I’ve noticed about a lot of my students is they they really like Jesus but they have a problem with Christians

[00:08:11] yeah and I think sometimes that’s overstated but yeah generally true it’s it’s perception that we have to deal

[00:08:16] with in our society but I would say in the context of spiritual growth really becoming a disciple of Christ a God has

[00:08:23] ordained the church as the instrument which is produces maturity in the lives of Christians and so I would say for a

[00:08:29] person that claims to be a Christian and is serious about growth the next step is becoming involved in a healthy Church

[00:08:35] where you can be accountable where you can hear the word preach where you can use your spiritual gifts serve the Lord

[00:08:40] and have fellowship with other believers who are like-minded and so I would say you can you can object to the process by

[00:08:48] which God has ordained that we grow spear yeah but you’re not gonna grow without it okay not significantly yeah

[00:08:55] that’s that’s very true I think a lot of people are so frustrated with dealing

[00:09:00] with other people that we kind of sometimes shy away and go hey I I dragged us do this on my own

[00:09:06] but the reality is is that a lot of that is what God uses us to grow exactly is

[00:09:12] those relationships that we struggle with and I understand that sentiment a lot of people have been hurt by the

[00:09:17] church and have struggled with being accepted by the church so I understand where people are coming from when they

[00:09:23] say something like that yeah and in spite of the fact that the church has a lot of problems there’s a lot of really good churches out there that’s true you

[00:09:29] can go and be loved and accepted and I would just say keep trying until you find one that’s fantastic and my guest

[00:09:35] today is Steve Witten soon to be dr. Steve Witten he is an expert on history

[00:09:40] and theology and so we’re gonna be talking about the Reformation and we’re talking about the church right now which is a big deal what is the difference

[00:09:46] between the Catholic Church and the Protestant Church why the big split and why the differences in beliefs and how

[00:09:52] we how we basically conduct church and so forth so when we get back we’ll continue this discussion and he is a

[00:09:58] pastor as well as a professor at San Diego Christian College here in San Diego so stay with us this is going to

[00:10:04] be a great conversation we’ll be right back hi this is jason hall president of team

[00:10:11] home loans a branch of synergy one lending i just wanted to take this opportunity to thank Kevin Kahn over for

[00:10:17] the profound impact he’s had on mine and my wife’s spiritual life as well as being an incredible teacher while our

[00:10:22] kids were his students his knowledge and passion have taught us all how important it is to be defenders of our faith it’s

[00:10:28] our honor and privilege to support kevin and a show is our sincere hope and prayer that you will continue to learn

[00:10:34] to be defenders of your faith through Kevin’s radio show and through his educate for life teachings

[00:10:39] Thank You Kevin from the hall family and team home loans do you have one button espresso machines

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[00:12:20] thanks for listening today this is educate for life I’m your host Kevin Conover my website is join da educate for life o

[00:12:28] our G you can listen to a recording of this show and previous shows I’ve got all kinds of fantastic guests that I’ve

[00:12:33] interviewed experts on things like the Reformation experts on creation and evolution recently had a skeptic on my

[00:12:41] radio program Michael Shermer he is the editor or basically the president of

[00:12:48] skeptic magazine which is a very very popular among skeptics and agnostics and that was a very interesting show and all

[00:12:56] kinds of other guests that I’ve had on the show dr. James tour one of the top 50 scientists in the world talking about

[00:13:02] why evolution doesn’t work also interviewed a former Muslim Daniel Messiah expert on video game addiction

[00:13:09] Julie Doan a residential nurse and all just all kinds of amazing interviews so

[00:13:14] please take the time and check out my website check out the past radio shows would love to have your feedback and your comments on facebook also so anyway

[00:13:24] here we go we’re gonna continue our radio program today with dr. Steve Witten or soon to be dr. Steve Witten

[00:13:30] he’s all you’ve got as your dissertation left is that right okay so do you mind me asking what are you writing your

[00:13:35] dissertation on no it’s interesting that you would ask that question yeah the

[00:13:40] dissertation is on why do the children of pastors leave the church when they become adults oh wow boy we should do

[00:13:47] another radio show on that yes it’s been quite informative since I have four children who are in that category and

[00:13:54] hearing their input has been quite a revelation for me how interesting yes gosh I almost want

[00:13:59] to deviate from our program today can you give us a like some short tidbits from that I think one of the issues is

[00:14:07] just the issue of a secular education a lot of children that grow up in the church they go to secular colleges to

[00:14:12] get an education and then they’re taught by professors who are highly intelligent and experts in their area who don’t

[00:14:19] believe in God they’re naturalist they only believe in matter and they’re very convincing and I think one of the problems is children that grow up in the

[00:14:26] homes of pastors many times tend to inherit their beliefs from their parent without actually owning those beliefs

[00:14:32] themselves and so they go out there with inherited beliefs they’re not really theirs and so when they’re confronted

[00:14:38] with an extremely intelligent persuasive person who doesn’t share their convictions they’re easy fodder oh

[00:14:43] that’s one of the problems another problem with pastors kids as they see the underbelly of the church a lot of times when they see all the all

[00:14:51] the prowl the problem with conflict and plus the way their fathers are treated by the church and they get offended by

[00:14:56] that as well yeah and they associate Jesus with the church and so a lot of times since there’s no understanding that Christians

[00:15:02] don’t always perfectly represent Jesus yeah they are offended by that as well so there’s a lot of reasons there’s

[00:15:09] about seven that I cover in my dissertation but are you gonna make that into a book yes Lord willing yeah that

[00:15:15] would be a really good book well we’re talking about the Reformation today and we left off with discussing the

[00:15:23] differences between the Catholic Church and the Protestant Church and how what take us back to Martin Luther and where

[00:15:30] it all started you know how this developed with him and how we eventually got up to the the split and the

[00:15:36] Protestant Catholic Church well I think Luther was strongly influenced by Wickliffe who was a hundred years before

[00:15:43] him almost in fact when Luther was examined at the diet of worms when he was trying to defend his position on

[00:15:49] salvation and an only scripture he was accused of embracing the heresy of Wickliffe and of course John HUS was

[00:15:56] burned at the council at burn by the Council of Constance a hundred years before 14:17 I believe and so when you

[00:16:03] think about Martin Luther he did not come up with these ideas they were already present other theologians had

[00:16:08] advanced them before him and now these were I mean because these concepts were actually in the Bible sure so they were

[00:16:14] all the way back hundreds of years earlier all the way to the time of Christ really yes but when you consider

[00:16:20] that the only translation of the Bible pretty much was the Latin Vulgate which was translated by Jerome and 400

[00:16:26] it was pretty much the only Bible in the church for a thousand years and if you couldn’t read Latin you couldn’t read

[00:16:32] the Bible so you basically believed what you were told by the priest yes and so there was now Jerome was actually

[00:16:38] translating it into the common language at the time the Latin Vulgate so but then

[00:16:43] became the uncommon language right it was Latin yeah and Latin was the language of the educated okay and so the

[00:16:49] priests are pretty much the only ones that could read the Vulgate okay so even though they’re in the scriptures nobody can actually read it they and they can’t

[00:16:56] understand how to be saved for themselves right and that’s why Luther’s translation from Erasmus his Greek New

[00:17:01] Testament into German was such a revelation because it was the first time that the German people and then later

[00:17:07] others could read the Bible in their own language yeah now was this deliberate by those that were leading the church was

[00:17:14] that deliberate to maintain power or was that accidental I wouldn’t want to impose

[00:17:20] sure I don’t know I mean it was pretty much the only translation and of course you’re when you’re when you’re talking

[00:17:26] to the four hundreds to the 14 hundreds that’s a period where there’s not a lot of advancement in technology and things

[00:17:33] of that nature so the but the Vulgate was pretty much it and so that was one of the reasons but now how did Wycliffe

[00:17:40] get so how did he become so knowledgeable about the truth he was a priest okay and he could read the Bible

[00:17:46] himself and and there were actually some scholars that Wickliffe were able was

[00:17:52] able to get together himself that did translate portions of the Bible into English even before Luther did it in German so

[00:17:59] he wanted that to happen also they all understood that once the people got the language of the Bible got the Bible in

[00:18:05] their own language that they would be able to see for themselves what they believed instead of having to believe what the church told them that’s really

[00:18:12] great now okay so so as Martin Luther is you know picking up on these things or

[00:18:19] learning these things Wycliffe and HUS and so forth what what begins to part you know he’s got to deal with the

[00:18:25] church in the and the consequences of contradicting the church well the issue for for Luther as most

[00:18:32] people know was the sale of indulgences by Tetzel yeah there had to build a new

[00:18:38] papal residence in Rome and they were raising money to do it and the church commonly taught that there was a place

[00:18:45] which we know of as purgatory where believers had to prepare for entering into the presence of God and so Tetzel

[00:18:52] was commissioned by the Pope to go to Wittenberg Germany to sell indulgences and it was

[00:18:58] graduated if you were poor you paid less if you were wealthy you paid more and so as and essentially this was to get your

[00:19:05] relatives out of purgatory which was a painful place that wasn’t hell but it

[00:19:10] was a place that they could be pulled out of yes he would say as soon as the coin tinkles into the thing the soul

[00:19:16] leaps out of purgatory and Luther’s basic problem was there was the the the the 95 thesis had several different

[00:19:23] emphases one of them was the poverty of the German people is why are we paying so much taxes to support a Pope in a

[00:19:29] country that will never see and of course German nationalism was beginning to rise as well which is one of the

[00:19:35] reasons why a lot of the German nobility and princes supported Luther when he finally decided to break from the church or well actually when he was executed or

[00:19:42] excommunicated yeah take that out of it yeah yeah that when he was excommunicated and so tencel came to

[00:19:50] Germany to do this and Luther objected to it he said why are we being taxed for billing a papal residence and then again

[00:19:57] there was the Avignon papacy where there was two Pope’s at one time and then three Pope’s another one pointed by a council and so the general office of the

[00:20:04] papacy was not well respected at this time and and of course the other thing was and this is a argument that I think

[00:20:10] was very good I think very easy to understand Luther said if the Pope has power to let people out of purgatory why

[00:20:16] doesn’t he just let them all out why is he charging people so that they are released in that way and how did

[00:20:21] they respond to him well and he made that statement you know Luther posted his 95 theses on the door of the church

[00:20:27] in Wittenberg in October 31st 1517 yeah and that was a common way of inviting debate on a particular subject sure

[00:20:33] Luther has no idea what was going to happen he just thought let’s talk about this he was still a priest he still very

[00:20:41] much believed in many of the doctrines of the church his his theology developed from this point forward really Luther I

[00:20:47] don’t think had a clear on understanding of justification by faith he still believed in purgatory wasn’t questioning

[00:20:52] legitimacy of purgatory so he developed in fact Luther’s theology it develops as

[00:20:58] his salvation process begins which I think starts now but I don’t know that he actually was a believer yet yeah but

[00:21:05] anyway he nailed the thesis to the door of the church in Wittenberg and expecting you know you don’t know

[00:21:10] he was a believer yet what do you mean by that because I mean he’s a he’s a priest and a church well I don’t think

[00:21:17] necessarily having an office as priests in the church makes one’s a believer yeah the scripture is very clear that a

[00:21:22] believer is a person who has placed his faith in the finished work of Christ and is not trusting in what they would call

[00:21:29] a sacramental salvation where salvation is dispensed by the sacraments it begins by removal of Rijal sin at baptism the

[00:21:38] sacraments of the Church of the Catholic Church and then it’s confirmed later you receive the actual physical body and

[00:21:44] blood of Christ through the Eucharist you receive absolution from confessing to the priest and so in a sense that’s

[00:21:51] the fundamental difference that that that Luther ended up having with the church and that Protestants have with

[00:21:57] the Catholic Church today is how was a person saved yeah so let’s this is a great place to take a break we’re gonna

[00:22:02] be right back my guest today is Steve Witten we’re talking about the Reformation Martin Luther and

[00:22:08] specifically you know why this break was so significant and also why was it necessary and how is a person saved

[00:22:15] according to the Bible is it through sacraments or is it through something else we’ll be right back

[00:22:22] [Music]

[00:22:29] hi this is Kevin Conover will you please donate to educate for life so we can share the truth of God’s Word with kids

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[00:22:58] this is Jason hall president of team home loans a branch of synergy one lending I just want to take this

[00:23:04] opportunity to thank Kevin Kahn over for the profound impact he’s had on mine and my wife’s spiritual life as well as

[00:23:10] being an incredible teacher while our kids were his students his knowledge and passion have taught us all how important

[00:23:16] it is to be defenders of our faith it’s our honor and privilege to support Kevin and his show is our sincere hope and

[00:23:22] prayer that you will continue to learn to be defenders of your faith through Kevin’s radio show and through his educate for life teachings

[00:23:28] Thank You Kevin from the hall family and team home loans hi I’m Marisa Conover

[00:23:34] and I would love to help you buy or sell your home I’ve worked as a realtor for

[00:23:40] more than 13 years and as a San Diego native my passion and experience will

[00:23:45] help make your move as peaceful as can be call me at six one nine two five one

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[00:24:36] to educate for life I’m your host Kevin Conover my website’s joined educate for life so our ji we’ve got over 40 classes

[00:24:43] online to help you get a firm foundation for your faith there’s a lot of skeptics

[00:24:48] out there asking a lot of questions about hey you know how do I know God exists how do I know the Bible is true

[00:24:54] how do I know the books in the Bible are the right books in the Bible why is there slavery in the Old Testament why does God wipe out all the Amalekites

[00:25:00] and Canaanites that doesn’t seem very loving so there’s tons of questions out there and today as a Christian you want

[00:25:05] to be able to be equipped to be able to share with people the answers to these hard tough questions you know I tell

[00:25:12] people but back when I was younger you didn’t have to so much prove that God was real it was just sharing the gospel

[00:25:19] and then letting people decide but today people start off with all these questions about just fundamental things

[00:25:25] like how do you know Jesus was a real person and so we have to be more equipped as Christians to know more of

[00:25:31] the background and the truth of why we know the Bible is true and be able to

[00:25:36] explain those things in order to be able to bring people to the knowledge of the truth of God’s Word so check that out if

[00:25:42] you get a chance my guest today is Steve Witten and Steve we left off talking about Martin Luther and nailing the 95

[00:25:48] theses he was upset about what was going on with his name was tensile Hetzel

[00:25:54] Tetzel and basically the sale of indulgences so can you contrast that one more time

[00:26:01] for our listeners how how in Protestant Christianity what is what do we believe about how a person is saved as opposed

[00:26:08] to Catholicism and what do they believe about how you get saved are you saved

[00:26:13] the same or is there a different doctrine being taught and just just to begin with we share many many doctrines

[00:26:20] in common with the Catholic Church first of all the doctrine of the sinfulness or depravity of the human race there

[00:26:27] they’re Trinitarians just like we are they they believe in in heaven they believe in eternal retribution and so

[00:26:34] but the biggest area where we disagree is in theology we call a soteriology or the doctrine of salvation and what we

[00:26:42] believe what I would call myself an evangelical rather than a Protestant I’m not really protesting anything anymore

[00:26:48] yeah I would say more of an evangelical and so I’m in the same sense that Luther said I am bound by Scripture I believe

[00:26:54] I’m bound by Scripture to believe what scripture says about how a person saved and the Bible makes it very clear that

[00:27:01] we’re all sinners and then we need to be saved that Jesus Christ died in our

[00:27:06] place on the cross to pay the penalty for our sins and that we appropriate

[00:27:11] salvation by placing faith in the finished work of Christ by faith it’s a

[00:27:16] personal transaction between us and God and the church is not involved in that

[00:27:21] it’s involved in our spiritual growth afterward but it’s a personal transaction between the believer and God

[00:27:27] I believe that’s what the Bible teaches and that would be the biggest area where we would diverge from the Catholic

[00:27:32] Church because even though the Catholic Church would say and when I say Catholic I mean Roman Catholic yeah they would

[00:27:38] argue that they believe in salvation by grace but for the Roman Catholic Church grace is mediated by the sacraments of

[00:27:44] the church and it begins when you’re baptized as an infant that’s supposed to remove the judgment for original sin

[00:27:50] you’re confirmed at a later date where you confirm your belief you you continue

[00:27:55] to receive salvation on a week-by-week basis as you receive the the sacraments

[00:28:00] as ordained by the priesthood the actual body and blood of Christ and if you don’t get that your salvation is you

[00:28:07] don’t you don’t have it you lose it right and then also you have to receive absolution from the priest you confess

[00:28:13] your sins to the priest and he gives you absolution sometimes penance is involved and in a way to show how you’re sincere

[00:28:20] and then you receive last rites when you’re when you’re about ready to die and so all of these things are essential

[00:28:26] part of the Catholic view of how a person is saved and even though in Vatican 2 the Catholic Church

[00:28:32] acknowledged non Catholic brethren there’s still no mechanism in their doctrine for a person to be saved

[00:28:39] outside of the sack of the church and I would say that’s the biggest difference that we have wow

[00:28:44] that’s really that’s really interesting because it’s almost sounds like the Old Testament in the sense that you know as

[00:28:51] a Jew living in the Old Testament you you had to participate in the sacrifices

[00:28:56] you had to participate in all these things I mean if you were apart from the temple apart from the Levites there was

[00:29:03] no way for your sins to be atoned for it’s not as if you could go off on your own well I mean technically I suppose

[00:29:10] you could but really that’s what was established in the Old Testament and it’s almost as if they’re carrying that

[00:29:17] forward into the church I mean of course they don’t do sacrifices or anything like that but still it’s all mediated by

[00:29:23] that the church is interesting parallel yeah uh-huh why so so considering this right people

[00:29:31] are thinking themselves well why is this the case why does the Catholic Church continue to teach this if the Scriptures

[00:29:37] so blatantly teach the opposite blatantly for the one who has I think a

[00:29:43] perspective that is not controlled by the councils and history of the church and I think that there are many fine

[00:29:51] Catholic theologians who are fully convinced of the sacramental method of salvation and certainly they have proof

[00:29:56] texts that they would use to support that idea it would be easy for me to say

[00:30:02] what was because the church wanted to maintain control yeah and I think that that certainly was a major issue yeah

[00:30:08] but again I would encourage everyone that’s listening to this program read

[00:30:14] the Bible for yourself and ask the Holy Spirit to help you understand it and I

[00:30:19] believe that the Catholic Church would acknowledge that their doctrines come from the Bible and so if both Catholic

[00:30:25] Catholic and the Evangelical Church say that our dra are documents that the scripture is what validates our beliefs

[00:30:31] well then let’s look to the scripture as individuals and see what it says to us personally yeah absolutely

[00:30:37] so take us along the timeline here of how this all played out have a little

[00:30:44] outline here I created when you think about Luther his life is virtually

[00:30:49] identical with his development of his doctrines they happened like one at a time and I think the crises in his early life

[00:30:55] are the stages of the Reformation I don’t think it was ever Luther’s intention to break with the church in

[00:31:02] fact he didn’t he was excommunicated and he had long been concerned about the

[00:31:07] corruption of the church and the papacy and so when Johann Tetzel was sent to Germany to basically raise money to

[00:31:14] build the church in st. Peter’s Luther was offended by that and and that’s when

[00:31:20] he nailed his 95 theses of the door in the church in Wittenberg Luther I think was very surprised at the church’s

[00:31:26] reaction Leo the tenth who was the Pope at that time essentially called him a drunken German and and and so you can

[00:31:32] see that as Luther began to braise these issues with the church he became more and more separated from the church and

[00:31:39] as that continued the next thing that happened in the spring of 1518 he is called the Heidelberg to give an account

[00:31:45] of himself before his own Augustinian order he was an Augustinian and remember a Augustine’s doctrine of sin is pretty

[00:31:52] much what I believe the New Testament teaches and Luther was very much influenced by the writings of Agustin

[00:31:58] and so in a sense when you understand Luther had this overwhelming sense of his sinfulness and yet the sacraments

[00:32:04] and the church didn’t do anything to alleviate that and so you could see he was in hell and a shame they were they

[00:32:10] were very much present in the way he thought yeah but yet there was no relief so in the fall of eighteen fifteen

[00:32:16] eighteen he’s called a Augsburg to be examined by Cardinal caccia tomb who was sent by the Pope the Pope said

[00:32:24] let’s train this wild boar in the vineyard and that’s the way the church looked at at Luther and I think Luther

[00:32:31] probably now is beginning to be in danger although I don’t think he realized it but in danger of

[00:32:36] excommunication and more oh yeah and yeah in his life I think he made some more enemies and some more

[00:32:42] friends at this at this time in July of 1519 his most famous debate was with

[00:32:50] Cardinal Eck a Cardinal Eck was the most famous debater in the history of the church at least at this period in

[00:32:55] history and and I think that that the church thought that he would be able to

[00:33:01] force Luther to deny his doctrines and really through logic yet through logic

[00:33:07] and just through a the council’s and creeds of the church because what they were saying was this is what the council said this is what

[00:33:13] the Creed said this is what the Pope is dictated but they didn’t understand how Luther thought Luther thought unless cut

[00:33:18] he was coming to the place where unless he could be Vince convinced on the basis of scripture those things didn’t mean

[00:33:23] anything to him yeah and so there was a there was a huge disconnect there I mean they thought that they would be able to convince him in it and that’s

[00:33:29] interesting because he’s actually going to an even greater source right and the Scriptures actually teach that it says

[00:33:35] watch out for the traditions of men right that’s what Christ talked about right don’t abandon the teachings of God

[00:33:41] for the traditions of man which is so blatant in Scripture right and it goes

[00:33:46] so perfectly with what he’s encountering yeah Luther was his mind at this point in his development was beginning to be

[00:33:53] captivated by scripture and in fact one of the things that they wanted him to do at this at this debate was to denounce

[00:33:58] the the martyrdom of John HUS and Luther and far from denouncing it said we are

[00:34:04] all Hussites you know and and you know it was it was here I think that that Luther first emphasized the authority of

[00:34:11] Scripture over everything and this was a watershed development in the history of the church that’s great okay so let’s

[00:34:16] pick up at that watershed moment in the history of the church when we come back my guest today is Steve Witt and we’re

[00:34:21] talking about the Reformation and Martin Luther we’ll be right back

[00:34:27] hi this is Jason hall president of team home loans a branch of synergy one

[00:34:32] lending I just want to take this opportunity to thank Kevin Conover for the profound impact he’s had on mine and

[00:34:38] my wife’s spiritual life as well as being an incredible teacher while our kids were his students his knowledge and

[00:34:43] passion have taught us all how important it is to be defenders of our feet it’s our honor and privilege to support Kevin

[00:34:50] and his show is our sincere hope and prayer that you will continue to learn to be defenders of your faith through

[00:34:55] Kevin’s radio show and through his educate for life teachings thank you Kevin from the hall family and team home loans

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[00:36:26] fix coffee calm call Dave at six one nine eighteen five thirty nine eighty five welcome to educate for life I’m

[00:36:39] your host Kevin Conover my guest today is Steve Witten we’ve been talking about Martin Luther and the Reformation very

[00:36:45] interesting it is the 500 year 500 year anniversary of the Reformation a hugely significant event in the history of the

[00:36:52] church and our lives would be radically different potentially if it weren’t for Martin Luther

[00:36:57] so we have a lot to be grateful for as evangelicals doc-doctor soon to be dr.

[00:37:04] Steve Witten here is with us and he’s a professor at San Diego Christian college and also a pastor where do you pastor

[00:37:11] Grace Fellowship San Diego we meet in El Cajon okay great so if you’re looking for a great church you can check out their church Grace Fellowship out in El

[00:37:18] Cajon and I’m sure they’d love to have you out there and you get to hear Steve talked about theology and history

[00:37:26] and it’s really nice to have somebody who really knows the background behind the church and a lot of that history it’s very valuable to have somebody who

[00:37:32] has that knowledge not all pastors have that so that’s a great thing and why don’t we pick up where we left off here

[00:37:38] you were talking about Martin Luther’s life is beginning to become in danger he’s his doctrine his theology is

[00:37:45] changing and and literally he’s accepting the Lord now here for the first time biblically as he moves away

[00:37:51] from what the traditions and the Creed’s of the Catholic Church June 15 2013

[00:37:58] and made final in May of 1521 so you get a timeline here 15 17 18 19 20 21 so

[00:38:04] this is a process that lasts several years Luther publicly burned a copy of the bill in Wittenberg and you know wouldn’t

[00:38:10] a Wittenberg was a place where he felt safe he was protected by the nobles there and Luther was a powerful force of

[00:38:16] personality as were Philip Melanchthon who was his right-hand man was one that actually wrote the Augsburg confession

[00:38:22] he was really more of a theologian of the Reformation than Luther was Luther was really the political force behind it

[00:38:28] and so Luther was now considered a heretic in 1521 and yeah and you can you

[00:38:33] could die for being a heretic yeah if they can get you yeah and so he was condemned to Hell by the church but in

[00:38:40] May a 1521 which I think probably is the real date of the Reformation if you consider all the events that happen

[00:38:46] because of the close alliance with the church in the state Luther was called by the Emperor Charles v to the diet of

[00:38:52] worms and he was guaranteed safe conduct and so this was a civil court and this is interesting this was a civil court

[00:38:58] they had the power to execute as where the Catholic Church didn’t when the Catholic Church wanted to execute

[00:39:03] someone they had to have the civil authorities do it yeah and so they commanded that he recanted his writings

[00:39:09] and again when you were accused of heresy by the church at this period in history there was no I’m not guilty it

[00:39:16] was like I’m guilty and I recant or I’m guilty and I don’t recant and so Luther essentially said that it was neat this

[00:39:23] is his quote after declaring that it was neither right nor safe to go against conscience and Scripture he concluded

[00:39:29] here I stand I can do no weather god help me but there was a political situation there Charles the fifth kind

[00:39:35] of favored Luther and had guaranteed him safe conduct if the church had burned him at the stake

[00:39:41] like they did husk then the Reformation might not have started at this point in history maybe a lot later but Luther was

[00:39:47] actually spirited away by some of his friends and place in a place called

[00:39:54] Wartburg castle which was high up on a hill and protected by the nobility that owned that land no one really knew where

[00:40:00] he was and he was there for about ten months and during this period he translated portions of Erasmus as Greek

[00:40:07] New Testament into the German language and he had some health problems while he was there struggled with depression but

[00:40:13] that was the best thing that he did while he was there and so when he got back to Wittenberg he had at least

[00:40:19] something to give the German people to read and he said so the German people were some of the first people to

[00:40:25] actually get to read the Bible for themselves yes and when you think about the origin of the Reformation certainly

[00:40:30] it was active in Germany but it was also active in Switzerland as well Ulrich Zwingli pretty much convinced the town

[00:40:38] of Zurich to convert to Protestantism in around 1520 – or 1521 so this is around

[00:40:43] the same time and this is in Zurich in the north of Switzerland and of course Calvin was ministering in Geneva in the

[00:40:48] south of Switzerland shortly afterwards so you see and then John Knox later in Scotland so there’s pockets of this

[00:40:53] happening everywhere all over Europe yeah and and but it’s really started in terms of its political force with Luther

[00:41:00] because when Luther declared here I stand I can do no other essentially he understood that what he was saying would

[00:41:07] concept would would would result in his death and he would rather die than not do that and so God intervened and I

[00:41:14] think put him in a place where he could translate the Bible into German and so that was a watershed development in the

[00:41:19] history of evangelical Protestantism yeah and so you know how would the world be different today if if he hadn’t made

[00:41:27] that decision to you know stand up for that and you know how would the church be different today do you think that’s

[00:41:33] really hard to speculate there’s a lot of variables I think one of the big variables is is today the idea of all of

[00:41:42] the reformers were Magisterial reformers and what I mean by that is they all believed that your convictions were a

[00:41:48] concern of the state swingley believe this Calvin believe this Calvin pretty much had more

[00:41:53] authority in Geneva than any political force and they burned people at the stake for disagreeing with them theologically there as well as in

[00:42:00] swingley the anabaptists were the first ones that came up with the idea that that that the state was a divinely

[00:42:06] ordained institution and so was the church but they should be separate yeah and of course I’m not making comments on

[00:42:11] the way that the Supreme Court has misinformed the First Amendment sure but but the point is is that I don’t know I

[00:42:18] think today the idea of a religious organization controlling everyone’s life

[00:42:24] in every area not allowing contrary beliefs I think that would be so contrary to the socio-political

[00:42:31] consciousness of today that it probably wouldn’t have lasted much longer yeah and really isn’t that a contradiction to

[00:42:38] the Scriptures themselves yes I mean it was it right of Calvin and others to

[00:42:45] really almost try to force people to be Christians know it what’s not right and and I think that when your beliefs

[00:42:52] become a concern of the state and you have to tailor your beliefs to your sovereign and this is the way it was after Luther I mean people that lived in

[00:42:59] a Lutheran Canton had to be Lutheran people that lived in a Protestant Canton had to be a Catholic Canton had to be

[00:43:07] Catholic in other words the religion of the ruler was the religion of the people you see the whole idea of a personal

[00:43:13] interaction between the individual and God being what results in salvation and your standing with God was something

[00:43:20] that was so unique I think to the movement of the Anabaptist yeah and really I mean that’s what the Scriptures

[00:43:27] teach us the Scriptures they do just that it’s all about a personal relation I mean when Christ died on the cross and

[00:43:32] he said it is finished and the curtain was tore that that whole point is that we now have access directly to God we

[00:43:38] don’t have to go through a priest or a church in order to have a relationship with God but think about that was

[00:43:44] written 1500 years before the Reformation and when Luther said exactly the same thing it changed the face of

[00:43:50] Europe because culture often develops in such a way that standard morals are

[00:43:56] accepted by the majority of the population that are clearly contrary to what the scripture teaches and so when

[00:44:01] Luther said scripture should be our only Authority and elevation is an act of grace and its received by faith it changed the face of

[00:44:08] Europe because the culture then was salvation was mediated by the church and it was very much connected with your

[00:44:13] citizenship yeah okay so my guest today is Steve Witten we’re gonna be right back we have one more segment left stay

[00:44:19] with us we’re going to talk about the impact of what we believe about a relationship with Christ and how that

[00:44:25] affects not just our lives individually but also affects society at large how

[00:44:30] does that impact a culture when we go from believing that the church is in charge of our salvation versus we have a

[00:44:37] personal connection to God we’ll be right back for 36 years Fastlane

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[00:45:17] two two zero seven sixty-six hi this is Jason hall president of team home loans

[00:45:22] a branch of synergy one lending I just want to take this opportunity to thank Kevin Kahn over for the profound impact

[00:45:28] he’s had on mine and my wife’s spiritual life as well as being an incredible teacher while our kids were his students

[00:45:34] his knowledge and passion have taught us all how important it is to be defenders of our faith it’s our honor and

[00:45:40] privilege to support Kevin and his show is our sincere hope and prayer that you will continue to learn to be defenders

[00:45:46] of your faith through Kevin’s radio show and through his educate for life teachings thank you Kevin from the hall

[00:45:51] family and team Home Loans hi I’m Marisa Conover and I would love to help you buy

[00:45:58] or sell your home I’ve worked as a realtor for more than 13 years and as a

[00:46:03] San Diego native my passion and experience will help make your move as peaceful as can be

[00:46:09] call me at six one nine two five one one five seven seven that’s six one nine two

[00:46:16] five 1577 or visit Conover homes.com hi this

[00:46:26] is Kevin Conover will you please donate to educate for life so we can share the truth of God’s Word with kids in public

[00:46:33] schools you can donate online at donate to EFL 0rg the Bible used to be read in public

[00:46:39] schools on a regular basis prior to the 1960s but today most kids are completely clueless when it comes to the content

[00:46:46] and the historical and scientific accuracy of the Bible please help us by donating online at donate to EFL RG

[00:46:59] welcome to educate for life I’m your host Kevin Conover my web sites educate for life dot o-r-g and I’d love to have

[00:47:05] you check it out we’ve got all kinds of courses up there for people to take who want to firm up their faith and really

[00:47:11] know the answers to the tough questions we cover everything you can possibly imagine in a total of 40 courses they’re

[00:47:17] divided up into ten courses each the first one we start out with is nature created or evolved and then the second

[00:47:24] one is religion who’s right and how do I know can we actually evaluate religious

[00:47:29] beliefs is there a way to determine who’s telling the truth and who’s not you know how do I know whether Buddha Muhammad Joseph Smith Jesus Christ how

[00:47:37] do I know which one of these guys to believe that’s the the second 10 courses or classes then the third one is how do

[00:47:44] I know the Bible is actually God’s Word and in that we actually cover part of what we’re covering today which is Sola scriptura why is it so important that

[00:47:51] scripture is the final authority as opposed to things like tradition or

[00:47:57] scientism or whatever else might be out there that tries to take an authority position in our lives and the last one

[00:48:03] we talked about which we’re going to touch on briefly in this last segment with Steve is how do we apply the Bible

[00:48:09] to culture what does it mean once I begin to study the Word of God once I begin to learn what the Word of God says

[00:48:14] how do I then take that and apply it to the way I live and to the decisions I make in regards to social issues like

[00:48:23] poverty like marriage all these different issues the the pro-life versus

[00:48:30] pro-choice and and how much is the church supposed to be involved in politics right so there’s questions like

[00:48:36] these so Steve I wanted to pick up there it’s kind of a broad subject and it’s

[00:48:41] and there’s no way we’re going to cover it in 9 minutes here right but but at least a little bit what does it mean for

[00:48:47] you and me that the Reformation happened and that we have a direct access to the Word of God we have direct access to God

[00:48:54] we don’t have to have somebody else mediating for us what does that mean for me as it pertains to how I respond to

[00:49:03] cultural issues and social issues and politics and government can you give us some insight onto that and your

[00:49:09] perspective on that I guess I would just say that for us as Christians as believers that the scripture should be the mediator of our

[00:49:16] views on all things a spiritual social political a regarding provided the fact

[00:49:21] that the Bible addresses those particular issues yeah and I think it does address a lot of the issues that were facing today so I would say that

[00:49:29] the scripture should be the mediator for us but then again I think in contrast to that we have to realize that there are

[00:49:34] many many people in which we in the society today the scripture is not the mediator or their views on these issues

[00:49:41] and so in a sense we can’t expect people to have biblical ideas on morality and

[00:49:46] social issues if they’re not believers and if they don’t believe in the credibility of Scripture so I think for

[00:49:52] us to be unified in our response to these issues based on Scripture I think is a very good place to start

[00:49:58] yeah and would you say that you know I think as people we’re always having to readjust or you know kind of correct we

[00:50:07] have a tendency to get off-track over time it seems like church in the church as well as you know what we see in

[00:50:13] history with Catholicism and so forth so do you think that the church is off

[00:50:20] track in any way as far as the church in America why are we not more United as a

[00:50:28] church body we seem there seems to be a lot of division over issues do you think that has to do with the issue of Sola

[00:50:33] scriptura and so absolutely yeah even though the church is is largely sectarian now I mean there’s lots of

[00:50:39] different denominations and they all they all differentiate themselves based on their particular doctrinal

[00:50:44] distinctives and yeah to me I think that that started with the Reformation of course you could say the Eastern Orthodox in the Catholic Church split in

[00:50:51] 1054 but in 1517 first you have the Lutheran then you have the Reformed later on you have the Baptist Methodist Wesley ins so

[00:50:58] the church identifies itself in sectarian terms by I’m a Baptist I’m a Methodist and so based on their doctrine

[00:51:04] you get based on their dog this is how I’m different than you yeah you know but I would say that’s that’s more

[00:51:09] symptomatic than causative I would say the difference today is that believers have different ideas on the authority of

[00:51:16] Scripture I certainly there’s room for disagreement among people who look at Scripture and take it seriously in

[00:51:23] certain areas such as spear gifts or eschatology the doctrine of last things but I think in the major

[00:51:29] issues that we struggle with in our society today I think the scripture is pretty clear yeah I think the problem is is that

[00:51:36] people maybe who even call themselves believers or believe they are believers don’t really accept the authority of

[00:51:42] Scripture their views are more mediated by their culture so how do we encourage people to become to make scripture their

[00:51:49] authority I mean what is it that’s causing people to deviate from you know

[00:51:54] going to scripture rather than going to the media or culture or their peers or whoever might be it might be that they

[00:52:01] have an experience the forces of God’s Word in their own life I mean one of the things that really changed my life is

[00:52:07] really understanding that this is actually God’s Word it’s true and if I apply it it can change my life I mean it

[00:52:13] did it changed my life and so I have a trust in it that is absolutely

[00:52:18] authoritative it to me I believe it yeah and I’ve seen it I’ve tested it over a period of over 40 years and every time

[00:52:24] I’ve tested it it’s come to be true and so I don’t know outside of the perspective of really experiencing the

[00:52:30] power of the word of God in your own life it might be something that you look at and say well I accept this it’s the

[00:52:36] Word of God it’s certainly Orthodox it’s what I’m supposed to believe yeah but I don’t think that’s the same as actually

[00:52:41] experiencing that in your taste and see yes good point you have you have to

[00:52:46] actually invest into trusting God’s Word and then see that begin to play out in

[00:52:52] your life you and I are having this discussion and we have great unity because we both come from that perspective if that were true I think of

[00:52:59] believers all around the world there would be much more unity in the church today yeah that’s fantastic well my

[00:53:05] guest today Steve Witten he’s a pastor grace fellowship out in El Cajon if you

[00:53:11] are here in Southern California and San Diego and you’re looking for a good church please visit his church a

[00:53:17] fantastic opportunity to really learn from somebody who really knows the Word of God and knows history he’s also a

[00:53:23] professor out at San Diego Christian College and you guys are always taking new students so yes we are it’s a Christian liberal arts college we offer

[00:53:29] lots of different degrees it’s a great community where do you get to know people that are of like passion and have

[00:53:36] a high view of Scripture and be taught by people who we believe and who actually have a high

[00:53:41] view of Scripture as well yeah and and real quick what’s the difference between a high view view of Scripture and a low

[00:53:47] view of Scripture I’d say a high view of Scripture is that you believe that the Bible is inspired and in error in errant

[00:53:53] in the autographing text of Scripture so in other words when you read the Bible you actually believe this is what the authors actually wrote

[00:53:59] and in in the autographic text of Scripture you believe that this is exactly what God intended down to the

[00:54:05] smallest letter and I would say a differing view of Scripture would be maybe the Neo Orthodox view or you would

[00:54:11] say well the Word of God is contained in there it’s in there somewhere and whatever appeals to me on that day that becomes the Word of God to me it’s

[00:54:18] subjective it doesn’t have and they would argue well it’s not reliable in terms of science or archeology I think a

[00:54:25] high view of Scripture says that wherever the Bible speaks it’s absolutely true and accurate that’s fantastic that’s

[00:54:30] sdcc dot e-d-u sdcc edu if you’re looking for somebody who has a really

[00:54:36] high regard for scripture who believes it’s the inspired Word of God and can give you reasons why that position makes

[00:54:43] the most sense right it’s not a blind belief it’s not a blind faith it’s a rational faith based on evidence and a

[00:54:50] good reasoning that the Word of God is true it’s the actual word of god so SDCC

[00:54:55] edu Steve Witten thank you so much for being on the show today thank you Kevin appreciate it okay so next week next

[00:55:02] Saturday we’ll have some more guests and I hope you’ll join us really grateful for you being here with us today

[00:55:07] and I hope you have a fantastic Saturday and I fantastic Christmas god bless you did you miss part of today’s program

[00:55:13] don’t worry work on mitad to helping you get the info you need okay that was dumb

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