Biological Evolution Didn’t Happen with Dr. Olen Brown and Dr. David Hullender

[00:00:15] thanks for being here with us this evening my name is Kevin Conover I’m broadcasting down here in Southern

[00:00:20] California you’re listening to educate for Life radio on K praise 1210 a.m. we’re also on FM 106.1 in North County

[00:00:29] and of course we’re all over the internet on podcast and um all the different venues there are for uh

[00:00:35] talking about it uh I have some interesting news just recently a poll was done by um USA Today and they they

[00:00:44] were taking a poll right here in March on what is the most interesting

[00:00:50] religious Museum in the nation so they had all kinds of different options 18 different nominees that included the

[00:00:57] Museum of the Bible um in Washington DC the Billy Graham Library in Charlotte

[00:01:02] North Carolina the national museum of American Jewish history in Philadelphia and a bunch of other well-known museums

[00:01:08] and what came out as number one and number two were the arc encounter in Kentucky and the Creation Museum also in

[00:01:14] Kentucky so if you have not been to those uh you probably want to check them out um this is the second time they’ve

[00:01:21] been nominated as the top two uh religious museums in the nation and uh pretty pretty cool um so we are talking

[00:01:29] about creation Evolution tonight and um and so it’s interesting about 40% of

[00:01:36] Americans believe in specifically a Biblical creation that is a as it’s

[00:01:41] described in Genesis six days of creation we we also have people who believe that God used evolution in order

[00:01:49] to um create everybody uh meaning that’s theistic Evolution the idea that God

[00:01:54] used Evolution and then you have somewhere around 20% of people who say it was a purely materialistic process um

[00:02:02] of biological evolution at darwinian Evolution and so uh that’s been pretty

[00:02:08] stable for quite a while now and my guests this evening are we’re going to

[00:02:13] talk about this we’re going to talk about the problems with evolutionary theory my guests today are Dr Olan Brown

[00:02:20] he’s professor emeritus of biomedical Sciences at the University of Missouri he has a PHD in microbiology from the

[00:02:25] University of Oklahoma he’s also a toxicologist certified by the American Board of toxicology he’s written more

[00:02:31] than 200 published articles he’s uh that includes 60 published reviews of books

[00:02:37] and um films by the American Association of science he’s written four books including Miracles which you can get for

[00:02:43] free um which I’ll tell you a little bit more about that later Miracle specifically dealing with the fact that

[00:02:49] all of reality all of nature all of creation is a miracle and then um he’s

[00:02:54] also directed research uh in biology chemistry uh the medical uses of oxygen

[00:03:00] in the space Sciences Research Center the John Dalton card cardiovascular research and the University of Missouri

[00:03:06] medical school he’s nominated for the distinguished alumnus award University of Oklahoma so I share all that so that

[00:03:13] you know that um the information you’re getting is not from some just some guy we pulled off the street also with us is

[00:03:19] Dr David hullander he’s professor of mechanical and aerospace engineering at the University of Texas at Arlington he

[00:03:25] has a PhD from MIT and serves extensively as a consultant he teaches courses in engineering and has won

[00:03:32] awards for teaching excellence and I’m really grateful to have both these guys on the program they recently published

[00:03:40] um uh they recently published in the journal uh progress in biophysics and

[00:03:45] molecular biology uh they published two papers one is Neo Darwinism must mutate

[00:03:52] to survive and the other one is biological evolution requires an emergent self-organizing principle and

[00:03:59] uh I’ve got a quick question here for you uh Dr hullander as we get started here which is uh you know a lot of

[00:04:05] people they’re listening and and we know that Dr Brown is a microbiologist but you’re an engineer um and and some

[00:04:13] people might say what does that have to do with with uh you know Origins and evolution why what reason would we have

[00:04:19] to you know what is your involvement in this and your interest in this a lot of people don’t recognize that engineering

[00:04:24] has any involvement regarding biological evolution can you share with us about that

[00:04:30] well I think my contribution to this is from the standpoint of the mathematics I don’t know anything about

[00:04:37] biology uh in fact the the only courses I ever had in chemistry and biology were back as undergraduate many many years

[00:04:44] ago but uh the engineering aspect of it has to do with uh the statistical nature

[00:04:53] of performance of how things are designed and built and the organization

[00:04:58] I mean if you are constructing an airplane you’ve got to have an organized

[00:05:04] approach to which parts come first you can’t start out with the engines because

[00:05:09] there’s nothing to mount them you don’t have wings to mount them on you can’t start out with the seats because there’s no fuselage to put them in and so from

[00:05:17] the standpoint of engineering I would look at that as a conditional

[00:05:22] probability of things that have to occur in an organized sequence uh which which

[00:05:30] just can’t randomly happen I mean I guess it could randomly happen but the

[00:05:36] problem is you would continually have to be starting all over again until you randomly got to the first things that

[00:05:43] had to be done before anything else could do and so just like in engineering

[00:05:48] um uh there’s there’s statistics and probabilities associated with events

[00:05:55] happening and and that’s kind of more or less where I came into play on this and trying to understand the the biology

[00:06:02] from a lman standpoint very interesting um along those same lines uh Dr Hollander what

[00:06:09] what is it that caused you to even take an interest in this um how did you decide to you know connect with Dr Brown

[00:06:17] and and say oh okay well I’m an engineer here but let’s start crunching numbers on the probability of whether Evolution

[00:06:23] could take place when we look at the cell and so forth how did that how did that process start um

[00:06:31] actually Dr Brown and I have known each other for many years and U we just from

[00:06:38] the standpoint of um uh well we did well we’ve known each other

[00:06:44] for many years and a lot of times when he will come into a or he will encounter

[00:06:50] a problem that he needs some mathematics he’s reached out to me to to to provide

[00:06:56] that support for the different things that he was working on and so it was um

[00:07:03] I it it wasn’t so much I don’t know that I would have even known what questions

[00:07:08] to ask but from the standpoint of but he he knew how to ask me questions and then

[00:07:14] say mathematically I mean how would you handle this or deal with this oh that’s very interesting um would you say that

[00:07:21] in the scientist in in the scientific um realm in the different Sciences is there

[00:07:27] often a disconnect between the different disciplines and the the people that are doing the research where um somebody

[00:07:35] like with your background in the math would really be able to solve issues that a biologist might not otherwise

[00:07:42] solve I mean that relationship is really interesting that you’ve developed with one another to to assist each other in

[00:07:47] your research is that something that happens frequently or are the disciplines often very

[00:07:54] separated well this happens all the time in fact um I think what I’ve observed

[00:08:00] over the years that happens is that sometimes to solve a problem you got to you got to have somebody that can think

[00:08:07] outside the box and take a out the box and think take a fresh look at uh of how

[00:08:12] to work things and they figured out how to do that with a totally different

[00:08:18] application but it’s like why not uh apply that to here and and this has

[00:08:23] happened in in several uh cases or or several problems that Olden and I have

[00:08:29] worked on um that I would have never even thought to go there without him

[00:08:34] asking me questions about it and then I’m thinking well from an engineering standpoint um here’s here’s way I would

[00:08:41] do that here’s the software and the mathematics I would apply uh that that I

[00:08:47] use in Aerospace and mechanical engineering U but I would have never even thought to apply those things to

[00:08:53] those kind of problems and sometimes people that are working those a certain area they don’t have have that out of

[00:08:59] the box experience with the tools that they that are available because they’ve never needed to use them before and so

[00:09:08] um but you you nailed it that that a lot of times out of the box totally separate

[00:09:15] background can be a provide a tremendous help to solving problems that it’s an

[00:09:21] approach that nobody would have ever thought to take that’s in that field that’s that’s very interesting so

[00:09:28] do you think that um because I I find it really interesting that as far as I

[00:09:33] understand it and correct me if I’m wrong but a large percentage of Academia like research scientists and so forth

[00:09:39] they actually embrace evolutionary theory um and I don’t know what the actual numbers are from a percentage

[00:09:46] standpoint but when we look at the general po the general population in America you have 40% of Americans who

[00:09:51] say I believe in a that God created us he did not use Evolution um in your

[00:09:58] exper experience and I know this is kind of anecdotal but um and Dr Brown I’ll ask you this question in your

[00:10:05] experience is what is the percentage of scientists would you say that that um

[00:10:11] Embrace evolutionary theory as opposed to those who Embrace something like intelligent design or creation uh Dr

[00:10:19] Brown I I don’t know uh I I don’t have any data on on that so it would be

[00:10:27] probably just anybody guess a lot of times I I’ve known colleagues I’ve worked with colleagues

[00:10:34] sometimes we discuss our religion generally apart from our

[00:10:39] science um so I I don’t know many people that I’ve worked with as scientists that

[00:10:46] we really had in-depth con conversations about what our beliefs were I know that

[00:10:53] some of those people some of my friends just don’t want to get involved

[00:10:58] especially when you’re beginning your career there there are lots of

[00:11:04] anecdotal experiences that people have and there are some that are quite well known where people are in a sense black

[00:11:12] balled because of their spiritual connections of believe and uh there is a

[00:11:19] a group of of individuals who I don’t say they’re atheists they they announce themselves

[00:11:27] that that’s where they’re coming from there and it’s not possible to have a

[00:11:33] useful conversation with some of those mature atheists but my interest with my

[00:11:41] colleagues where I share this comes generally from a sharing of faith and

[00:11:48] then a discussion of whether our world view is affected by what we believe

[00:11:54] about the Bible in terms of whether we believe it literally or I have friends

[00:12:00] that are theistic evolutionists so so there’s all kinds of people in science Fields just like there

[00:12:07] is everywhere else with respect to this subject yeah so I mean the focus of the

[00:12:13] two uh papers that we’re talking about this evening um that were published and uh for those of you who are who are

[00:12:19] listening uh these publish these these papers um are published by uh the

[00:12:26] journal progress in biophysics and molecular bi and in casee you’re wondering you know what kind of a

[00:12:31] journal this is um you know some of the editors include Tom blell he’s a PhD from the University of Cambridge deline

[00:12:38] Dean PhD from Clemson University Department of bioengineering Dennis Noble PhD uh from the University of

[00:12:45] Oxford so this is no lightweight Journal uh this is a rigorous you know research

[00:12:50] and people looking at questions about uh um you know theories and so forth so so

[00:12:57] um in regards to that Dr Brown what I wanted to ask you was uh it’s it’s interesting that you were able to

[00:13:02] publish these papers in such a reputable Journal uh when like you said there are

[00:13:08] people that don’t want to get involved because they have been blacklisted in the sense that uh they’ve been told hey

[00:13:14] uh you know if this is going to be your position we’re not interested in having you on our staff or we’re not interested

[00:13:20] in publishing your papers I had a guy on my um on my show not too long ago who

[00:13:25] was fired because he published a particular perspective on uh Mark

[00:13:31] Armitage on the largest uh Triceratops horn ever found it had soft tissue in it

[00:13:37] he published it uh for one of the universities here in California he was fired he won a lawsuit for wrongful

[00:13:43] termination but um I’m curious uh you know is it just because you’re so well

[00:13:49] credentialed that that uh people were like hey let’s let’s go and and we’ll

[00:13:54] publish this P paper even though you’re really questioning um uh an established Paradigm The

[00:14:00] evolutionary Paradigm is very very much uh kind of you know this is status quo

[00:14:06] if you don’t if you don’t line up here you know you’re considered you know kind of off-kilter uh what do you have to say

[00:14:12] about how that was published in this in this journal well beginning about 10 years

[00:14:18] ago there was a start of what I might call a sea change it hasn’t become a flood yet but

[00:14:26] there are many reputable scientists who have strong doubts or

[00:14:33] concerns uh about whether evolution is is is

[00:14:41] advancing as other science Fields do the study of physics for example is open to

[00:14:48] questioning it’s open largely to new ideas or to

[00:14:54] controversies now I I think you have a problem if you if you try to put God in the equation there as well but with

[00:15:01] respect to the evolution there has been an attempt from

[00:15:07] the spiritual side to do theistic Evolution which you referred to that has

[00:15:13] made some inroads and there are institutes today who are funded and who

[00:15:19] do speeches and promote the idea that there’s no not

[00:15:25] a a that Evolution can be assist it’s how God did it um speaking

[00:15:34] personally I signed this statement by the creation Institute as Discovery

[00:15:41] Discovery Institute right Discovery yes yes I was number 65 I looked back and

[00:15:46] saw where my name was placed and there’s been over a thousand people p signed at

[00:15:52] the statement which is a very modest statement it just says we need more research and it’s not all settled

[00:16:00] yeah but I look back at when I was a when I was first starting

[00:16:07] teaching I had the opportunity to serve on a panel first at

[00:16:13] our University where Dr Morris you may have heard the word he he’s a one of the

[00:16:19] early people who was making speeches about yeah about this subject Philip

[00:16:24] Philip Morris right yes I think so yeah male and so I didn’t I wasn’t a panelist

[00:16:30] but I was on the panel who was supposed to ask questions and and that was the beginning uh I remember speaking at

[00:16:38] churches and some other places during that period And I really

[00:16:45] got a surprise to me at that point from colleagues who who feel felt very

[00:16:52] emotional about this that that I was you know that I was out of of bounds by even

[00:17:00] suggesting this yeah but I fortunately as far as I know I was never denied

[00:17:05] promotion I was never denied anything I I didn’t suffer those slings and arrows

[00:17:11] but personally uh and and getting to the questions you asked about the publication I would never have sent this

[00:17:18] paper I just wouldn’t have put the effort to send it to science or nature I

[00:17:24] know it would have been turned down I I know that it would have uh I I knew a

[00:17:29] little bit about Dennis Noble and I knew that he was a scientist and I knew that

[00:17:34] he had been bold in them to say that there there are things wrong that need

[00:17:41] to be made right and that’s where I’m coming from uh I’m not saying that all

[00:17:47] of the ideas about Evolution uh are scientifically provably

[00:17:54] wrong but I am saying that we need much more than something called survival the

[00:18:00] fittest and this is where I brought in Dr my friend

[00:18:05] Hollander to to look at this question about what is the what abilities does

[00:18:12] the concept survival of the fittest what does it really have what tools does it

[00:18:17] bring to be able to to advance the idea of a speciation event and that

[00:18:25] approaches the idea of probability is it probable is it possible is it so

[00:18:30] improbable as to not be considered and so that’s how we got started on this

[00:18:36] after previously we had done some work uh on um the idea of what information

[00:18:43] can you get from a blood pressure monitor which is not related to Evolution but it the the field of

[00:18:49] biology and his expertise merg there he can he can look at a an oscilloscope and

[00:18:57] see a graphic representation of a heartbeat and do miraculous things in

[00:19:03] terms of interpreting it I know that’s amazing so so that’s

[00:19:09] actually one of the questions I was going to ask you was you know when you started doing the research on these sorts of things and you started doing

[00:19:14] this give us an example of the kind of question you bumped into that you were like whoa I’m gonna have to reach out to

[00:19:19] somebody and you were like hey maybe David will be able to answer this question give us an example of of the

[00:19:25] kind of thing that you needed help with I needed help with probabilities uh I knew how to do simple probabilities you

[00:19:32] know like if you if you have X number of marbles and certain percent of them are

[00:19:39] a certain color and you reach in and it’s random it’s it’s you draw one out

[00:19:44] what’s the probability but then that’s fairly simple but the question really becomes

[00:19:50] important with respect to Evolution we have to talk a little bit about this idea of survival of the

[00:19:56] fittest if we’re going to if we’re going to have something

[00:20:02] change you know some evolutionists will say Evol biological evolution simple

[00:20:07] this just means change yeah but of course you probably heard yeah change

[00:20:12] over time yeah yeah so it gets a little more complex and perhaps I could say it

[00:20:17] this way I needed help with the idea if

[00:20:22] if a process of speciation takes several steps and I can’t think of any

[00:20:29] speciation difference change that doesn’t require multiple steps for

[00:20:35] example what goods half a wing think about that if you have don’t have a wing

[00:20:42] and you’re trying to by species change get something with a wing it’s

[00:20:48] irreducibly complex think about that term a mouse trap is irreducibly complex

[00:20:56] it has a little piece of wood it has a spring it has a bail that comes down over the mouse’s throat it has a tongue

[00:21:04] that latches and you have to have cheese now if you put a piece of wood out there

[00:21:10] and left it for a long time you wouldn’t catch any mice the mouse strap is irreducibly

[00:21:16] complex if if you had the whole Mouse trrap but you didn’t set it or you set

[00:21:21] it but you didn’t put any cheese on it it wouldn’t you don’t catch half a mouse

[00:21:27] with a half of a mous trp so this is where the idea of we’re asking survival

[00:21:35] of the Fest and if you look at Darwin’s book it was the Origin of Species by

[00:21:43] means of natural selection now let me take a moment here because this is important I think for your audience he

[00:21:50] used the word natural selection and his good friend Spencer

[00:21:56] who was competing with him at the time and trying to get his book out first but that’s another story but they were

[00:22:01] friends and Spencer Saidi wish you hadn’t used that word natural

[00:22:07] selection that a lot of folks out there are religious and they’re going to say if something was selected there had to

[00:22:13] be a selector and that that follows along today we have people who who talk about

[00:22:22] design you you can’t do that because it implies a designer yeah automatically

[00:22:29] categorized as the religious nut uh if you want to put it that way well it’s

[00:22:34] funny because I was reading an article and and um I was reading that Francis Crick actually would stumble on design

[00:22:42] and then try to take it out of the vocabulary and he and he actually made a statement saying we have to constantly remind ourselves that nothing we see in

[00:22:49] nature is designed and it’s funny because he said you have to constantly remind yourself and uh because it’s just

[00:22:58] natural to say like you said like that was designed and so um you have to

[00:23:03] really kind of you know alter your vocab so that you you you don’t start to sound

[00:23:09] like you’re for the other side right correct and and focusing on getting Dr

[00:23:15] huller my friend David involved here with the math and and the probabilities

[00:23:20] which was the part of this question we have to understand that survival of the

[00:23:26] fittest was what um Spencer wanted Darwin to

[00:23:32] use survival of the fittest now think about that that in in logic is called a

[00:23:38] a taism it it’s circular reason reasoning what survives the fittest what is most

[00:23:46] fit that which survives tells you nothing it it just swaps words and that

[00:23:53] is so fundamental and integral to the thinking of biologist that they accept

[00:23:59] it and promote it as an explanation when it’s it’s full of Sound and Fury but it

[00:24:04] means nothing signifies nothing so what I wanted to do was to ask Dr honder can

[00:24:12] you tell us what the probability calculation show if we give survival of the fittest

[00:24:20] this job of functioning as an editor there there’s no plan no purpose it’s

[00:24:26] all random but then you have to select and if if something selects the one

[00:24:33] that’s going to be on the way to a new species among all the other ones that

[00:24:38] are useless you have two situations when you have a a multistep process and any reasonable

[00:24:46] change for speciation is not going to happen in one step um let me tell you

[00:24:53] this I think have too much time on this but Dr Goo you you know who he was as

[00:25:00] the evolutionist and he was thrown out of this polite evolutionary Society

[00:25:06] published a book where he said there are there has to be gaps there’s big jumps

[00:25:12] between species and we can’t find the intermediates and we’ve looked and

[00:25:17] they’re not there in the fossils doesn’t make sense so he was bold enough to say what if a dinosaur laid an egg and it

[00:25:26] hatched and a bird f away because birds are supposed to be coming from dinosaur and he did that not

[00:25:34] in just but you the evolutionist you know didn’t like that idea but in in

[00:25:40] essence you you have to have big jumps and so if you’re looking at that if

[00:25:45] you’re looking at the fossil record yeah yeah it was called the the Happy Monster Theory or or something like

[00:25:52] that but what we need to introduce here to

[00:25:58] your audience for for Dr Hollander to say his Parts about the the the the

[00:26:04] probabilities which is the essence of what we’re getting at here is the idea

[00:26:10] that if you have a a multi-step process let’s choose one that we know something

[00:26:16] called the Krebs cycle all aerobic life forms whether you’re a germ or whether

[00:26:22] you’re an elephant or whether you’re a human you need energy and that energy

[00:26:28] comes from the metabolism the changes in chemistry of

[00:26:34] the food you eat and energy that’s present in the

[00:26:39] substance of that chemistry that the food is converted into something like a

[00:26:45] battery it’s a chemical called ATP adenosin trios this particular chemical

[00:26:52] is used by all life forms and it’s charged up in in the process of

[00:26:59] metabolism involving this thing called the CB cycle which has eight enzymes it’s the cycle process and it has it’s

[00:27:07] irreducibly complex having one of those enzymes is no better than having none

[00:27:13] having seven of them is no better than having none because it has to be complete so the challenge for Dr

[00:27:20] Hollander was to calculate what would be the probability if we give survival

[00:27:27] fittest it’s due capability that is to be able to select something that is

[00:27:36] better if it has eight steps to be good then it has to work as an editor along

[00:27:44] the way to save each step if if I got one two three or four or five or so both

[00:27:50] seven of them it’s no better than none but survival of the fittest has to

[00:27:56] recognize that and has has to be able to save it so his challenge was what if you

[00:28:01] could save it what if each time you get one step up the ladder you can you don’t have to start all over what that

[00:28:08] probability look like compared to the real probability giving survival of the

[00:28:14] fittest its capabilities that is it can only recognize when it is truly better

[00:28:20] so that was the challenge that I was presenting how can you translate the biology language into a language that a

[00:28:27] mechanical engineer can appreciate in terms of saying okay these are the

[00:28:32] calculations and he can tell you what the results were so so quick question here so um you’re being generous in the

[00:28:42] in even in in what you’re asking Dr Hollander to do you’re you’re saying look it let’s just pretend that it can

[00:28:48] save it but in real biological evolution according to Darwin’s theory if it’s not immediately useful by its definition

[00:28:56] natural selection has to eliminate whatever is not

[00:29:02] useful is that correct uh with some limitations yes

[00:29:09] okay but but generally speaking if you have half a wing that organism is actually going to be less fit than having no Wing right yes yes so so so

[00:29:17] therefore I mean he’s gonna be dragging around half a wing trying to get us food versus the guy that’s like no I’m just going right to my food and I I don’t

[00:29:24] have to deal with this half a wing so survival of the fitt says by by you know guy with half a wing um until you’ve got

[00:29:31] a full two Wings you’re not you’re not you’re not better than I am and so therefore you’re not going to survive

[00:29:37] better than I will um but you you’ve given the generosity of saying okay let’s say you can save it even though

[00:29:43] it’s not actually to a point where it gives any kind of uh survival Advantage

[00:29:49] um we’re going to calculate the probability you know giving it the benefit of the doubt is that correct yes and we’re going to use this

[00:29:56] particular process where there are it’s more complex but there are at least eight different proteins that all have

[00:30:02] to be there okay so Dr Hollander speak to that so uh

[00:30:09] like you said you can answer that so you get this problem and and you start working on it first of all I’m curious

[00:30:15] were you when you first got these problems were you kind of like wow this is this is going to be interesting I’ve

[00:30:21] I’ve never had to deal with this kind of stuff calculating numbers with Biology um was it kind of did it kind of catch

[00:30:27] you off guard or were you kind of like oh no this is this is Olan you know he’s always doing stuff like

[00:30:35] this well you pretty much nailed it right there with that comment um in fact every every every problem that he’s

[00:30:42] approached me with I I always correct him I tell him you’re talking to the wrong person I’m I’m not the one that

[00:30:50] can answer these questions but but in terms of the probability the weight

[00:30:56] actually it started is he says you know there’s a lot of the um there’s a lot of

[00:31:02] the people that believe in evolution uh from a probability standpoint is they

[00:31:07] say look we you’re you’re a human you’re here uh or there’s an elephant it it

[00:31:13] exists so the probab there must be a probability that it can that it can

[00:31:19] happen and um uh and he said how do we address that and I said well I’m going

[00:31:26] to have to learn a little bit more about the sequence of things that must go about but we had to get one thing

[00:31:33] straight right off the bat that that probability calculations are prior to some event

[00:31:41] happening you you don’t look at something that’s already happened and then then say well if it’s already

[00:31:49] happened then there must be you know it’s obviously it can happen it’s it’s very

[00:31:55] probable because it did happen and so we had to kind of get that resolved that that probabilities are always in terms

[00:32:03] of what can happen in the future not what has happened um the the main thing

[00:32:09] that I um once and and yeah I guess you have to

[00:32:15] consider the fact that it took me about it must have taken me almost six months

[00:32:20] maybe longer to even understand what he’s asking me or explaining to me in

[00:32:25] terms of these en Zs and mutations and and how that you you have to you have to

[00:32:33] have this sequence of enes that’s uninterrupted you cannot have a a lethal

[00:32:39] mutation that causes you to U uh if you

[00:32:44] have a lethal mutation within the sequence to get your eight or 12 or 15 however many of them you’re going you’re

[00:32:50] going to have um do you have to start all over or not start all over or can

[00:32:55] you just continue on on um with this concept of survival of the fittest and

[00:33:01] so uh basically I did have an understanding of

[00:33:07] conditional probabilities what happens if you have you you have to get a new

[00:33:13] enzyme U and it can’t be the previous enzyme it has to be one of them that’s

[00:33:18] available that you need to progress um that is one case and we can’t what is

[00:33:24] the probability of getting all eight of them or 12 of them however many you’re going to require and then the other Cas

[00:33:31] is where you can have a lethal mutation don’t and and you you don’t have to start all over but you still have to get

[00:33:38] all of the enzymes and um you know these are pretty straightforward calculations

[00:33:44] uh of probability um and and

[00:33:49] so my my challenge was just understanding uh what’s required and I

[00:33:56] never I still don’t don’t understand what it takes to produce a species but I I’ve taken his because I don’t

[00:34:02] understand the biology but I do if he says if you got to have this many in a sequence and it can’t be interrupted

[00:34:08] with a with a lethal one what’s the probability of that happening but if it can be interrupted by as many as

[00:34:17] necessary uh lethal mutations uh but you still have to get all of them what’s the

[00:34:22] probability of that happening and you know if he’s going to lay it out that that

[00:34:27] in that simple of of explanation it was just a matter of doing the math so were you were you surprised by

[00:34:35] the results of your calculations and so forth or were they what you expected they would be um uh David what what went

[00:34:42] long the path here was it was it something that you were um you know I mean you’re obviously learning a ton

[00:34:48] about biology but when it comes to the possibility of evolution actually taking place biological evolution taking place

[00:34:55] um were you surprised by by the results of the

[00:35:01] calculations well I wasn’t surprised because I’d never even thought about it

[00:35:06] I mean I mean uh you know being a strong

[00:35:13] believer and a Christian you know I’ve just always uh believed that you know

[00:35:18] God created man in His image and it didn’t happen and it just evolved over a

[00:35:23] period of time by some random process even if there were millions and millions

[00:35:29] of years for it to happen but I’d never thought about the actual numbers

[00:35:34] associated with the probability of of it of it happening and and those sequence

[00:35:40] happening and then and then I told you know we’re we’re getting numbers like uh

[00:35:46] 10 to the 10 the minus 50th the probability of that happening well or 10

[00:35:52] Theus 100 and I said butan I I said that’s it just to create one of these

[00:36:00] Cycles I said isn’t it true that with all of the

[00:36:05] millions of species that are out there and all of the different cycles that have to be completed to ever create a

[00:36:13] species you you you got to take those numbers of probability of just giving

[00:36:18] one cycle and you’ve got to you you have to multiply all those together which

[00:36:24] which is ridiculous I mean there’s no way that you could uh ever uh believe

[00:36:30] that something like that could happen um but it’s a number and and of

[00:36:36] course the argument is well if you wait long enough it could happen and

[00:36:42] uh that in fact the first thing I thought about when he came up with this

[00:36:47] problem is explaining the thought process on this I’m thinking yeah and and all of us have heard this if you had

[00:36:53] a warehouse that had everything in it all the composits all of the electric

[00:36:59] motors all of the transistors all the dodes all of the the rubber materials and everything and a and and a storm

[00:37:06] hits that warehouse and the result is a 747 I mean it it’s kind of

[00:37:15] like who would believe that that would ever happen now I don’t I don’t even know how i’ begin to calculate that

[00:37:23] probability everybody would everybody would say it was a miracle that’s I mean all newspapers would

[00:37:30] publish miracle miracle right and yet today people are say oh no no it just

[00:37:37] you know when it has to do with biological organisms it can happen um so

[00:37:43] you know versus you know an inanimate airplane right um so Dr Brown along that

[00:37:50] those that same case I mean um you’re looking at these numbers that David’s coming up with what’s going through

[00:37:56] through your mind as you’re looking at these numbers well unfortunately I had read some work that other scientists had had

[00:38:04] done before uh and some of these calculations become

[00:38:09] absurd and even that word was used it had been ignored by biologists

[00:38:16] because George wal was a Nobel Prize winner I I heard him speak once he was a

[00:38:23] very brilliant man he’s he did did not uh wasn’t concerned about the low probabil or the

[00:38:30] Absurd probabilities he said that I can’t quote it exactly he talked

[00:38:38] about things that are improbable given enough

[00:38:44] opportunities enough time become probable and the probable becomes the

[00:38:49] virtual certainty and he used the word Miracles

[00:38:54] he said time perform the miracle I I I bet he wished he could have taken that

[00:38:59] word miracle back yeah and actually probabilistically probab prob in

[00:39:06] probability Theory I believe DAV can correct me but I believe it’s correct

[00:39:11] that if something does happen then its probability is one after the fact if

[00:39:17] you’re looking it if you looked at something like um the lottery everybody

[00:39:24] knows about the lottery most of us wouldn’t go out of our way to buy a ticket if someone if we were given a

[00:39:31] ticket we would not keep it the chances of winning you know are so remote we

[00:39:36] wouldn’t bother with it but we all know that people win there there are people win the

[00:39:42] lottery and then they go bankrupt yeah no that’s true that’s story but there are also people who’ve won more than one

[00:39:49] Lottery yeah well really I didn’t know that yes it has happened so but

[00:39:56] Evolution tells us there are at least 8 million species

[00:40:02] identified they think that more than 99% of the species that ever existed no

[00:40:08] longer exist so there may have been more than a million a billion species total

[00:40:14] since the beginning now what we’re saying is okay

[00:40:20] suppose you got lucky you got one species but are you going to tell me

[00:40:25] that you believe that the mechanism that produced that one species can allow you

[00:40:31] to win the lottery a billion times uh somewhere you lose

[00:40:39] me so these big numbers um are one of the things that we use as

[00:40:48] our rationale for looking at this subject rationally to see could it

[00:40:53] happen um you know um I want to return for just a quick

[00:41:01] moment here to this idea of consensus we talked about the power that biologists

[00:41:09] have in terms of putting down other ideas they don’t engage on the

[00:41:16] probability they just say we’re here and that proves it and at the same

[00:41:22] time they use the same idea that politicians use consensus is valid for

[00:41:31] politics the way I get something done is I convince a lot of people so the idea

[00:41:38] of consensus is legitimate but consensus means nothing in science doesn’t matter

[00:41:44] how many scientists you have who say I believe this David would join me and

[00:41:49] saying show me the numbers show me the data show me the the show me the empirical evidence um let me bring this

[00:41:57] home in in a way that may mean something to some of your audience everybody knows

[00:42:02] about Michael kryon you probably saw his book Jurassic Park and you know about

[00:42:07] his other work well Michael was a fully trained doctor

[00:42:13] he never practiced medicine but he went through Medical School internships and then he got involved with writing and

[00:42:20] with with movies but Michael kryon said

[00:42:26] I want to read this consensus is invoked only in situations

[00:42:32] where the science is not solid enough let’s be clear the work of

[00:42:38] science has nothing whatever to do with consensus consensus is the business of

[00:42:48] politics we face every day with this problem that we are told if you you you

[00:42:55] either believe this are you’re stupid are you’re crazy or you’re worse you’re

[00:43:03] evil and I don’t want to Pro I don’t want to promote the scientist who who said

[00:43:08] that I will say his name Richard Dawkins he’s in England he he’s made a r a

[00:43:16] really large career and lots of money as an atheist and he I’m not saying he’s an

[00:43:22] atheist he proudly says I’m an atheist and he said if you meet someone who doesn’t believe in biolog and believe in

[00:43:30] in evolutionary biology you can be sure that he’s either either

[00:43:36] insane or he’s ignorant or he’s stupid or he is evil but I don’t want to

[00:43:44] go there that’s what we’re faced with when

[00:43:49] when we try to say let’s let’s look at the science let’s don’t solve all of the

[00:43:56] problems by saying God did it but let’s say where we need to do better as

[00:44:03] scientists yeah I really I really like that about your papers is that what you’re saying is is hey let’s do more

[00:44:09] rigorous research here um you know evolution is a paradigm that hasn’t

[00:44:15] gained ground forever I mean there’s been no new developments there’s been no new advances that have demonstrated that

[00:44:21] you know uh undirected mutations and and natural selection are are beyond that

[00:44:26] are drivers of of um like you’re saying speciation or upwards evolutionary

[00:44:33] progress where’s the evidence it’s been a long time and nothing’s happening and

[00:44:39] um you know I wanted to ask you because you said you said about 10 years ago there was a sea change and you said it hasn’t become a flood yet but I think

[00:44:46] it’s fantastic e even the fact that you are able to publish these two papers

[00:44:51] that are critical of evolution I mean a while ago um I I’m not sure that would

[00:44:56] even have been possible and yet here it is in a very reputable Journal that’s been been around since

[00:45:02] 1950 um you’ve published these two two papers and um and I believe you said you

[00:45:07] you even are working on a couple more papers um so so can you speak to that as

[00:45:14] far as um this sea change that’s taking place is this just because so many people like yourselves are actually uh

[00:45:21] you know pointing out that the emperor has no cloes and it’s it’s becom more and more well known these issues and

[00:45:27] people are becoming more accepting of them um what is it that’s causing this sea change well there’s a few people that

[00:45:34] have been very bold um uh David

[00:45:41] balinsky is a physicist you may have seen some of his podcast some of his

[00:45:46] work he he’s a very bright knowledgeable person in a very difficult

[00:45:53] field and when asked about about Evolution how much of it is true what

[00:46:00] percentage of evolutionary theory is true and he sat back in his own

[00:46:05] inevitable way and said 0o per. wow that’s a real bold

[00:46:12] statement so people like that a few people who who cannot be challenged in

[00:46:18] the same because he’s not he doesn’t go to church as far as I know or didn’t

[00:46:24] so there are people who who who are known to be religious and if if if if

[00:46:30] you come out against Evolution specifically in a scientific way people

[00:46:36] Scurry around to see if you’ve published anything or if you belong to a church or

[00:46:43] if you’ve made any comments along that line and then they say oh see you you

[00:46:48] talked about us getting this published it’s been interesting to see the response to it the the response is black

[00:46:56] and white you get some people who who will challenge us and say oh I

[00:47:01] understand they’re they’re religious and that’s what they said um one comment said uh well looks

[00:47:10] like we let one slip through now that says a

[00:47:16] lot looks like we slip one slip through yeah that’s very telling um and

[00:47:23] you know they’re they’re kind of um you showing their cards the fact of the matter is they’re not interested in um

[00:47:29] in dealing with the evidence and the arguments they’re they’re more interested in in maintaining a a

[00:47:35] paradigm that they for really honestly for religious reasons they want to they

[00:47:41] want to hold up um rather than actually going hey let’s look at the actual

[00:47:46] science let’s wrestle with these problems and see what we can do with them um there’s not a lot of ground uh

[00:47:53] being gained uh so so but there are a lot of people that you do feel um are

[00:47:58] supportive of your your arguments and that really because not everybody’s that way not everybody is is hostile towards

[00:48:06] this these sort of Publications like you said um I think you referenced descent from darwin. org um the the site has

[00:48:14] over a thousand PhD scientists that have signed on saying uh we we doubt the

[00:48:20] ability of darwinian evolution to explain the complexity of Life all over the Earth and uh we feel that more

[00:48:26] research needs to be done and we don’t feel that that this should be um people should be you know given the Scarlet

[00:48:34] Letter if they decide to question Evolution right well yes A A friend of

[00:48:39] mine I call him a friend told me personally I forgotten what his H index

[00:48:47] is an H index is an indication of how much your Publications have been cited

[00:48:53] is a figure and he has one that’s off the charts it’s huge he’s made a big

[00:48:58] impact he he works in nanoscience he can he can create mon

[00:49:03] molecules specifically designed in his laboratory in certain ways he’s an organic chemist he’s brilliant oh Dr uh

[00:49:11] that’s Dr James tour isn’t it yes oh you know the person yeah oh yeah

[00:49:17] he’s and he says I’m not in the Academy of

[00:49:23] Sciences and I should be just based on the impact of my work the number of

[00:49:29] people who cited my work the number of things that have occurred because of my work and he said finally one of my

[00:49:37] friends who is in the academy said I personally know why it’s because you’re

[00:49:43] a Christian and that was his testimony to me personally and he said it openly in

[00:49:50] other places so it does exist um

[00:49:57] it’s the idea wasn’t it Lord act maybe I cited this earlier it said power

[00:50:02] corrupts absolute power corrupts corrupts

[00:50:07] absolutely uh if somebody has all power I would want him to be God because

[00:50:15] I would want him to be all beneficent yeah but I don’t know any

[00:50:20] politicians who have that much power who are also

[00:50:26] benevolent that I would trust with everything in my life and in my

[00:50:31] future so huh yeah or the editors of scientific

[00:50:37] journals right yeah so so uh uh David a question for you so what does the future

[00:50:44] hold here you know as you and um Dr Brown have been working together are you are you guys going to continue to work

[00:50:51] on publishing papers and is there a particular angle that you’re going you’re going after specifically I mean

[00:50:56] you covered a lot of ground already in the two papers that you published um what’s next on your list of um you know

[00:51:02] trying to make other scientists aware of trying to make them think trying to challenge uh the established Paradigm

[00:51:08] what what’s next um in the future for you guys as a as a partnership uh

[00:51:15] David well honestly I’m I’m I’ll just wait for the next challenge uh for Molen

[00:51:23] and uh and I never know where it’s coming from and I and so far every one

[00:51:28] of them have been totally different and um I do have one comment about

[00:51:34] probability that that I wanted to say that I didn’t um and and this may be

[00:51:39] something that that needs to be pursued because if you if you tell me the

[00:51:46] probability of of one CH of something happening One Chance in 10 or one chance

[00:51:51] in a hundred or one chance in a million what you’re you’re really saying there is a chance it could

[00:51:59] happen and so um you know in in our

[00:52:05] formulation of everything that that the mathematics that was done I kept coming back to Oland and saying we have to

[00:52:13] start with something uh H that that would initiate

[00:52:19] the process and and really what it had to do was the probability that that you

[00:52:25] could have a spefication event from a mutation of the cell and my question to

[00:52:32] him I says uh for me to tell you what the probability of of a whole bunch of

[00:52:39] these things happening in sequence I got to know the probability that the first one could ever happen in the first place

[00:52:46] and and my question to him was has that ever been

[00:52:52] observed that that and he said said not to my knowledge I said so so if so we’re

[00:53:00] going to start and we’re going to do a calculation of probability starting with something that no we don’t even know

[00:53:06] nobody’s ever observed it and and we don’t even know for a fact that could occur and most likely it could never

[00:53:13] occur but we’re going to assume that it did so we can do the rest of the calculations and that’s I think very

[00:53:21] important to bring out here because anybody that’s saying well okay you say that the chance is one and 10 the minus

[00:53:28] 50 that something can happen so you’re really saying it could happen and and I need to clarify that

[00:53:37] that that assumes that something that can happen that we don’t we’ve never

[00:53:44] observed uh and and yeah and I say that correct

[00:53:50] Doan yeah very very so I’m reminded quickly of a little I don’t know actors

[00:53:55] and actresses today but there was a movie and this fella is interested in

[00:54:02] this girl and he he she he cannot get her interested in him and he have you seen

[00:54:11] that talking about you’re talking about uh you’re talking about Dumb and Dumber with yes yeah you want to tell the rest

[00:54:18] of the story no go ahead go ahead well anyway the two of them are there and

[00:54:23] he’s he’s pushing her you know he finally says well is is there a chance you know is there a chance for me

[00:54:31] and she says well yes and he says what kind of a chance and she says one in a

[00:54:36] million and he just goes the C he say oh wonderful you know that’s I’m happy to

[00:54:42] take a chance in one of move well here here we’re talking about chances like 10

[00:54:48] the minus 400 yeah I don’t even know how to describe that uh 10 to the minus 80

[00:54:55] excuse me 10 to the plus 80 is supposedly the calculated number of particles in the

[00:55:01] universe so yeah and I just you know it’s funny because um I hope people are paying

[00:55:09] attention I and I I hope that there are people out there that listen to this and go you know what I need to reconsider

[00:55:16] you know what I believe and what I think because um I got into a discussion with a biologist on Facebook and and he said

[00:55:23] to me you’re no biologist you really don’t have any authority to be able to say anything about you know I was talking about a biogenesis you know life

[00:55:30] from no life and and I said to him you’re right I said you’re right I’m not a biologist you’re the biologist and I

[00:55:35] said but here look at these numbers and I just threw up you know a basic argument for for the chance of you know

[00:55:41] amino acids coming together and forming proteins and ultimately forming cell and and I said you’re the biologist you tell

[00:55:47] me is this do these numbers look accurate and he responded back yeah your

[00:55:53] numbers look accurate and I said I said’ then how in the world can you possibly

[00:55:58] think that life could come into existence without God and he never wrote me back and uh so I consider that I won

[00:56:07] but but but I just feel like you know what do you have to do to convince

[00:56:12] somebody that gosh come on guys I mean uh can’t we just have an honest discussion and really just look at the

[00:56:18] evidence and come to good conclusions I don’t feel like it’s that difficult um and yet it seems so difficult you know

[00:56:24] and so um I guess it’s just more of what you guys are doing more of just continually

[00:56:31] presenting the evidence and showing people look at this is well done research this is respectable research by

[00:56:38] respectable scientists who know their stuff um you know take a minute and and

[00:56:45] really make an honest assessment of of the evidence and um you know deal with

[00:56:51] it rather than running away from it or pretending or putting your head in the sand um but I guess that you know that’s the

[00:56:57] spiritual aspect of what we’re dealing with so well yes if I may say to me I

[00:57:03] don’t approach my Christian friends with this and ask them what they

[00:57:09] believe and try to tell them they have to believe Genesis literally in order to

[00:57:15] be saved uh but I say your world

[00:57:22] view if you think about it and Socrates said you know the unexamined life is not worth

[00:57:32] living there is some truth to that one should examine what you believe and why you

[00:57:38] believe it it may not affect the salvation of

[00:57:43] yourself but it could affect the salvation of your children or your grandchildren or someone that you

[00:57:51] know um it it’s also important in another

[00:57:57] context I think it creates great joy in life to give God the credit for the

[00:58:04] beauty of the world and the sky around us the alternative is to say that it all

[00:58:12] happened by chance to me that’s not very satisfying

[00:58:17] it certainly doesn’t bring joy into my life so if for no other

[00:58:23] reason if you’re saved if you know you are and you’re doing things for the Lord

[00:58:29] in the world accept the joy that comes for being able to look at the night sky or

[00:58:36] the trees in your or the face of your grandchild the most miraculous thing in

[00:58:44] the universe is not the star Sky it is not even the human it is the fact that

[00:58:51] we are made to have eternal Fellowship with

[00:58:56] God that is the greatest Miracle well I think that’s a wonderful

[00:59:02] way to um wrap things up here so absolutely I I couldn’t agree more and

[00:59:08] um I just want to thank you uh Dr Brown and Dr Hollander uh for your time this evening it’s been a great uh pleasure

[00:59:13] having you on the program well thank you and thank you for getting a commitment from Dr Hollander

[00:59:19] to continue to work with me I appreciate that it’s recorded now it’s recorded

[00:59:26] well um for those of you listening um you know you can obviously watch recordings of the show you can forward

[00:59:32] this podcast to your friends and check it out and then I just want to share uh Dr Brown’s um email it is Dr dr. Olen O

[00:59:42] len. Brown gmail.com he will give you a free copy of his book Miracles which

[00:59:48] describes uh the incredible miraculous uh creation all around us and um from a

[00:59:54] s SCI ific perspective explains how miraculous what we what we get to experience is if you want to get a hold

[00:59:59] of Dr Hollander hu l n d r

[01:00:06] ut.edu hu l l n d r.edu um he’s available to do

[01:00:13] probability calculations for you I’m just kidding Dr if he wants to if he’s

[01:00:19] not too busy both these guys have a lot going on and um um next week we do have

[01:00:25] a really interesting show um archaeological biblical tours at the British museum with Jill Baker bumped

[01:00:31] into a tour guide for the British museum she’s over in uh Britain and she gives

[01:00:38] archaeological biblical tours I’m really excited to have her on the program we also have the scientific evidence for

[01:00:44] the age of the Earth with Dr Russ humph coming up in November um we and uh several other really amazing uh

[01:00:50] interviews uh that I think you’ll be blessed by and I just want to thank our guests for being here this evening and

[01:00:57] uh for those listening in I hope you enjoyed the program we’ve got so much more good stuff for you and um you know

[01:01:04] there’s troubling times around us but keep your eyes fixed on God the Bible tells us whatever is good whatever is

[01:01:09] pure whatever is Holy think on these things we can trust God through all the difficult circumstances we’re going

[01:01:14] through and we can uh like Dr Brown said uh have joy in acknowledging the gifts

[01:01:20] that God has given us through his creation and uh through his son Jesus Christ I hope you have a nice evening we

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