Creation and the Dead Sea Scrolls with Dr. Jeremy Lyon

[00:00:00] thanks for being here this evening my name is Kevin Conover and we’re broadcasting down here from Southern California we’re on K praise 12 10 a.m

[00:00:07] and we’re also on FM 106.1 in North County and we’ve got a great uh

[00:00:14] opportunity to learn some very interesting stuff tonight my website is educateforlife.org there’s all kinds of

[00:00:20] interviews up there we’ve got over 100 interviews with experts from all over the world talking about how God has

[00:00:26] ministered to them and through them and this evening we have Dr Jeremy Lyon he’s associate professor of Old Testament

[00:00:33] Hebrew at Truett McConnell University he’s also the author of qumran interpretation of The Genesis Flood and

[00:00:41] the Genesis creation account in the Dead Sea Scrolls and so he has his PhD in Old

[00:00:47] Testament from Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary and uh he is an expert on Old Testament

[00:00:55] and biblical languages Dr lion thanks for being here this evening hey it’s great to be here absolutely uh it’s

[00:01:03] interesting I just got I got uh finished putting together a a message I spoke at

[00:01:08] several churches on Prophecy and the the Dead Sea Scrolls looking at qumran so

[00:01:14] this is perfect timing I’ve got all kinds of questions I’m very interested in this subject matter so okay um so

[00:01:20] it’s it’s interesting um give us a little back a bit of background about why you decided to

[00:01:26] focus on uh qumran specifically why why qumran why did Sea Scrolls well

[00:01:33] yeah spent a lot of time in the Hebrew Bible so the foundation of scripture and also

[00:01:39] looking at Genesis the opening chapters as the foundation of God’s word uh so love for the Hebrew language love

[00:01:45] studying creation and the flood and uh just the foundation of God’s word and so studying the Dead Sea Scrolls you’re

[00:01:52] looking at ancient manuscripts and studying Hebrew language and uh there’s all kinds of things to discover from

[00:01:59] these manuscripts and so uh just a lot to glean from these texts and so I spent

[00:02:04] a lot of time in that over the last uh 10 15 years or so tell us a little

[00:02:10] bit about the background of the Dead Sea Scrolls because I I know um you know in our in our area of uh uh

[00:02:17] Focus uh the qumran and the Dead Sea Scrolls comes up a lot but I think for the general uh lay person uh what is the

[00:02:23] significance of the finding of the Dead Sea Scrolls and what makes them so special

[00:02:28] um you know and qumran so special yeah uh so it’s a great question and so

[00:02:34] for many people they know that the Dead Sea Scrolls are important they’ve heard about them but they’re not exactly sure why now they’re so significant for

[00:02:41] biblical scholarship and so between 1947 and 1956 just after World War II

[00:02:48] uh you have roughly 900 manuscripts or fragmentary manuscripts being discovered in 11 caves along the Northwestern shore

[00:02:56] of the Dead Sea uh and so of these these manuscripts are dated between 250 BC and

[00:03:02] ad68 when the site of qumran was destroyed um and so you’ve got uh of these

[00:03:10] manuscripts you’ve got religious uh Jewish religious texts sectarian texts we’ve got apocryphal and suited

[00:03:16] pickerful checks and many of them were before unknown texts uh you know so we

[00:03:21] found some texts that we had no idea existed and which is phenomenal as well and then over 200 of these manuscripts

[00:03:28] are actually what we call biblical manuscripts and so every book of the Bible except for Esther is attested

[00:03:34] among the manuscripts um and so but many of the manuscripts are indeed fragmentary there are some

[00:03:40] that are better preserved than others but for the most part they are fragmentary and so as you look at

[00:03:46] uh these taxes as far as the biblical text and as we look at this by the way um really the Dead Sea Scrolls have

[00:03:53] really transformed our understanding of second temple Judaism of course the the backdrop of the New Testament uh period

[00:03:59] there and of course also the the history of the text and interpretation of the

[00:04:04] Hebrew Bible or Old Testament as well so they’ve really just shed a lot of Ancient Light for our study of these

[00:04:11] texts here so that’s just so Michelle that’s that’s uh very interesting and

[00:04:16] you know the finding uh this the nation of Israel came back into existence in 1948

[00:04:22] um when it was reestablished it’s really interesting that the Desi Scrolls were found just before that took place is

[00:04:29] there any significance there is there any reason to consider that special it just seems so you know quote

[00:04:35] coincidental that that would happen like that is that is there is there a reason why yeah I don’t know why in God’s good

[00:04:42] Providence that he allowed that to happen but certainly does seem to be uh significant although I don’t think this

[00:04:48] side of Eternity will know all the reasons for that that certainly is significant there’s a lot of interesting

[00:04:54] stories um laasukinic who’s at Hebrew University of Jerusalem for example was at that

[00:05:00] time you’ve got the British mandate you’ve got a lot of political unrest there in Israel at the time

[00:05:07] um and uh so a lot of uh issues there with politics and so you couldn’t just

[00:05:12] travel there in the land and so uh where the Scrolls were discovered in the

[00:05:18] Judean Wilderness then was under Jordanian rule um at the time and so it was you

[00:05:24] couldn’t just go out to the cave and go start looking there so it was much more difficult than that and so uh he was

[00:05:30] actually going to Bethlehem kind of um uh and trying to get a deal to get

[00:05:36] some of these manuscripts from one of the dealers there in Bethlehem and so he recalls

[00:05:42] um doing that during that time when of course the vote took place the U.N to purchase you know the state of Israel

[00:05:48] and so there those those moments were not lost on people uh during that time

[00:05:53] uh and so certainly very interesting that this one of the greatest archaeological discoveries ever uh

[00:05:59] happened during this time and came to light during this time and not only that there is this tremendous story not only

[00:06:06] of the discovery of the Scrolls but also um the Scrolls coming to light for public and it’s for Scholars getting

[00:06:12] their hands on it and the publication of the Scrolls I mean Hollywood can’t make this stuff up I mean this is uh this

[00:06:19] stuff is legendary uh the story is about the Scrolls yeah it’s absolutely incredible it it like you said Hollywood

[00:06:27] can’t make it up it almost seems beyond comprehension to me uh just that they

[00:06:32] they found these but um tell us a little bit about that you said it changed a lot of our understanding of the second

[00:06:39] temple I thought that was a really interesting uh teasy that you did there uh but but

[00:06:45] um you know something people are thinking how did this change things when when these Scrolls were discovered did

[00:06:51] it change Doctrine did it change uh people’s understanding of what is taught in the Bible or was this uh other things

[00:07:00] that we’ve that we’ve learned and gained that amplify what we already uh know to

[00:07:05] be true good question I don’t think it changes what we understand Doctrine in scripture so

[00:07:11] um uh one of the things that it does do for us though is gives us a glimpse into

[00:07:17] when we’ve got our own our most ancient extant that is still in existence manuscripts of non-biblical texts for

[00:07:24] example most of the texts are non-biblical text but they’re dealing with uh scripture they are Rewritten

[00:07:30] scripture they are uh commentaries uh not a little different than commentaries today but there’s all kind of religious

[00:07:36] texts that that provide us a window into uh ancient Jewish interpretation and so

[00:07:42] which we did not have before and so we were able to kind of look over the shoulders of the Ancients and see how

[00:07:48] they were both understanding the Biblical text and how they were employing these biblical texts for whatever purposes uh for religious

[00:07:55] political purposes whatever it may have been and so this is a phenomenal thing that we have as we look at the the

[00:08:02] earliest history of interpretation here that we have and so I think that’s important as we interact uh as we study

[00:08:09] the word of God we do so in community right as the body of Christ uh not that it’s a vote what the text means that’s

[00:08:15] not what I mean now the text means what it means but that we learn in community and we interact and we’re able to uh uh

[00:08:22] self-check you know our you know ourselves against uh these ideas and so on and we’re able to look at how the

[00:08:28] Ancients were looking at these texts how they’re living out these texts how these texts actually impacted their lives now

[00:08:35] how these texts actually ordered their daily lives and so this is a phenomenal thing as we look at the different types

[00:08:40] of prayers uh prayer texts wisdom texts um and one of those I want to talk about a prayer text out there for example uh

[00:08:48] which gives us an interesting insight into their understanding of the creation account itself but also how they live

[00:08:55] that out how it impacted their lives and so there’s so much to it does it change our Doctrine I don’t think so

[00:09:02] um and so the biblical text is fixed and I think we see confirmation of that so there’s nothing in the dead City Scrolls

[00:09:08] that overturns uh doctrinal teaching and Christianity or anything like that and so early on there a few sensationalists

[00:09:16] kind of reports but those have been put to bed long ago so what we find is that

[00:09:22] these texts confirm what we’ve already understood about the biblical text doctrinally and so on but it really has

[00:09:29] provided for us a really unique window into ancient interpretation and that is of tremendous value

[00:09:36] so yeah let’s dig a Little Deeper there and um just again for for those listening who may not know as much about

[00:09:42] the Dead Sea Scrolls so when the Bible the Bible we have today

[00:09:48] um I want to talk very specifically like you said about like the Genesis account of creation and how the uh the Insight

[00:09:56] that we have from how they interpreted that what you’re talking about there I think that’s really really interesting and I want to focus on that but before

[00:10:03] we do that um just for our listeners can you uh break down the significance of the how the Bible

[00:10:09] actually came to be today based on the manuscripts that that we had before the

[00:10:15] Dead Sea Scrolls were found and then what hap what that did for us as far as uh validating the scriptures and giving

[00:10:23] us an even more solid foundation um to build our lives on

[00:10:28] yeah so as I mentioned we’ve got over 200 of the Scrolls so roughly 900 manuscripts uh over 200 of them are

[00:10:35] biblical manuscripts there that and so or portions of the Bible of itself these are fragmentary texts so every book

[00:10:41] except for Esther as I mentioned is represented among uh these manuscripts so again they’re Old Testament though

[00:10:47] right what’s that the Old Testament correct uh we’re not dealing with the New Testament here no there are no New

[00:10:53] Testament manuscripts that are found that these are all uh Hebrew Bible Old Testament uh manuscripts here again from

[00:10:59] 250 BC to ad68 so they’re actually coincides partly with the New Testament era uh so for example there is one

[00:11:07] manuscript that most people are in particular familiar with and that’s usually uh known as 1q Isaiah a or what

[00:11:14] many people know as the great Isaiah scroll so this is the only virtually complete biblical manuscript that we

[00:11:20] have it’s dated to about 125 BC uh just absolutely a phenomenal manuscript that

[00:11:26] we have so also makes it the oldest known copy of the book of Isaiah that we have and there are some fascinating

[00:11:31] readings there in the great Isaiah scroll for example in the suffering Servant Song for example in Isaiah 52 13

[00:11:39] through 53 12. I got some interesting textual readings there but maybe at some

[00:11:44] point if we have time we could but the Torah itself is very well represented

[00:11:49] roughly a hundred manuscripts of the Torah are represented there what’s interesting there is you have some

[00:11:55] manuscripts that have just the Genesis portion of the Torah some manuscripts that just have the Exodus portion some

[00:12:00] that just have Leviticus and so on but we also have manuscripts that have the Genesis and exodus portion of text so we

[00:12:06] know that the the the the content of Exodus follows Genesis we have some manuscripts that have portions of Exodus

[00:12:12] and Leviticus on the same manuscript so we know that Leviticus follows Exodus for example and we even have evidence

[00:12:18] from qumran from our earliest manuscripts uh some of the so-called 4q reworked penitentum manuscripts in

[00:12:24] particular uh and I’ll just give the the labels here just case anybody wants to look them up before q364 4q 365 and 4q

[00:12:33] 366 for example one of those numbers designate for our listeners so four four

[00:12:39] represents K4 Q represents qumran so you got one Q Isaiah a it’s the first Isaiah

[00:12:45] scroll from cave one the first uh Cave where Scrolls were found so 4q 364 is a

[00:12:53] K4 at qumran and it’s and you start numbering each of these manuscripts and so there’s roughly 600 manuscripts from

[00:13:00] K4 alone and so so these are uh 4q364 through 366 and they were labeled uh 4q

[00:13:08] reward penalty but what we’ve actually seen is that there was these are actually um

[00:13:14] um copies editions of the Torah and what we find with these these actually were once complete Torah Scrolls so we

[00:13:20] actually have evidence from Kumon as well of complete Taurus Scrolls so you’ve got the entire Torah on a single

[00:13:27] menu script as well which is pretty phenomenal of course we have that tradition up to today where you have

[00:13:33] Taurus goals in the synagogue for example uh and so but we find evidence of that there coonron which is pretty

[00:13:39] phenomenal but we’ve got other biblical books there qumran uh they’re very popular we’ve got roughly 21 copies of

[00:13:46] the book of Isaiah I mentioned the great Isaiah scroll for example we’ve got roughly 35 copies of the Salter

[00:13:52] uh so a very popular in Antiquity just as it is today um and so we’ve got commentaries on

[00:13:58] Isaiah and the psalter and so on all kind of all kind of other compositions

[00:14:03] written concerning these biblical texts here but what’s interesting here as I mentioned um these ancient biblical Scrolls from

[00:14:10] qumran represent our oldest biblical manuscripts and they are extremely valuable they they fill in for us

[00:14:18] um this Gap this major Gap in the history of the biblical text and they provide a window into the condition of

[00:14:24] the text during what is known as the second temple period so prior to the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls right

[00:14:30] the earliest available Hebrew manuscripts of the Old Testament were from the medieval period right in fact

[00:14:37] the oldest complete copy of the Hebrew Bible which are modern Hebrew and English

[00:14:42] bibles are based upon is what is called the lenigrade Codex it’s dated to about ad 1008. uh the other uh codex the

[00:14:50] Aleppo codex portions of it were destroyed when Israel was uh voted to be

[00:14:55] a nation again the Arabs rioted there in Aleppo Syria portions of the Aleppo

[00:15:01] codex that one was dated ad930 and that was the crown that was the uh standard

[00:15:07] there but the lenigrade Codex um and it is a great representative of the

[00:15:14] Ben Asher tradition there that is uh the uh Aleppo codex and so this is a family

[00:15:20] yeah so so Dr lion then you’re saying that literally these these um Dead Sea

[00:15:26] Scrolls are almost a thousand years or a thousand years older than what we had

[00:15:32] prior to their them being found is that right right correct so the the Bible our Bibles today both Hebrew Bibles and

[00:15:39] English Bibles which are based are based off of the lenigrad Codex which is dated to 81008 so

[00:15:46] um so this is uh the masoretic text when we talk about this is a family of Texas not just one particular manuscript so we

[00:15:52] have this uh this group of Jewish scribes known as the massarites um uh the masoras the Hebrew term that means

[00:15:58] tradition we’re talking about uh not tradition in a negative sense but we’re talking about the textual tradition in

[00:16:04] which they preserve meticulously over the centuries there so roughly from about 8 500 to a thousand you have the

[00:16:10] maseries preserving in the biblical text this tradition there so however none of

[00:16:17] the earlier copies of the biblical books from the second temple period were known to have survived because they’re written

[00:16:24] on Scrolls this is animal skin you know parchment treated leather and so they deteriorate they wear out over time and

[00:16:30] they’re usually ceremoniously buried in what’s called a geniza from the Hebrew term ganache which means to hide away

[00:16:36] and so we didn’t have or we didn’t know of any manuscripts from much earlier

[00:16:42] period from the second temple period that is until the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls and that’s what I was talking about really uh filled in this

[00:16:49] major Gap we had prior to the death Scrolls all we knew of really was the

[00:16:55] this teeny tiny little Nash Papyrus which was dated to about 125 BC and so

[00:17:01] in fact they actually looked at the the handwriting on that and when they saw an image of the great Isaiah would say oh

[00:17:06] yeah that’s from the same time period there wow and so the biblical Scrolls in

[00:17:12] from qumran as I mentioned our dated 250 BC to 8068 and so they take the dating

[00:17:17] of the available biblical manuscripts back a thousand years or more as you mentioned in some cases 1200 years or so

[00:17:23] we’ve got some manuscript for example we’ve got a Samuel scroll that goes back to 250 BC you’re talking within now

[00:17:30] according to Jewish tradition many hold the closing of the can around the time of Ezra around the end of the 5th

[00:17:36] Century BC that’s what I hold to although there are other Scholars who will place it later in the second century first century or even as late as

[00:17:43] the end of the First Century A.D I don’t hold to that I hold to an earlier closing of the Canon around the end of

[00:17:49] the 5th Century BC but regardless closing of the Old Testament Canon or

[00:17:54] okay yes gotcha okay so regardless of where you have understand the closing of

[00:17:59] the Canon to be you’re talking about manuscripts that either if you hold to a later date precede the closing of the

[00:18:05] Canon which is pretty phenomenal or if you take the earlier date for the closing of Canon which I do you’re talking about are within a few hundred

[00:18:12] years of the closing of the Canon that’s awfully remarkable there so we’ve got manuscripts here now that are roughly a

[00:18:20] thousand to twelve hundred years older than what we previously had and so one

[00:18:25] of the interesting things we see here is that many of these ancient Scrolls from qumran closely match the medieval

[00:18:31] masoretic text tradition right so the mass roots are preserving a much earlier text Tradition now we have manuscripts

[00:18:37] from that earlier time period from the second temple period and so they closely match the later medieval masoretic text

[00:18:44] tradition which are modern Hebrew and English Bible are based upon uh

[00:18:49] I’m sorry when you say masoretic tradition for our listeners um explain that the masoretic tradition

[00:18:57] um as far as copying the Bible that’s what you’re referring to yeah and so uh

[00:19:02] so we’ve talked about the masteries we’re talking about a group of Jewish scribes and we talk about the masseur that’s what some of this determining

[00:19:08] tradition here so they’re preserving the text tradition and so they added uh

[00:19:14] things around the text there was Rabbi Akiva put it this protective fence around the Torah uh to preserve the

[00:19:20] faithful reading and transmission of text but also the faithful reading of the text there’s actually interpretation and preserved around the text in the

[00:19:27] scribal uh tradition here which a lot of people don’t realize I think and so they added the vowel points which are not

[00:19:33] part of the god breathe text the Continental text by the Hebrew text is just all consonants they add vowel

[00:19:38] points these little dots and lines uh beneath the letters in the letters uh you’ve got these accent marks which help

[00:19:45] with not only pronunciation but also syntactical um issues there so we get interpretive

[00:19:51] things there we’ve got masora parva and Magna we’ve got interpretive issues we’ve got readings stuff like that

[00:19:57] there’s all kind of things that the the maserates are doing there in order to preserve the biblical text here not only

[00:20:04] that but a particular textual tradition and interpretation as well and that’s what that’s what uh you know a lot of

[00:20:11] people find so hard to believe out and about is that how is it possible that these guys could hand copy the Bible

[00:20:17] over thousands and thousands of years and it not change over time it just seems kind of crazy you know yeah they

[00:20:24] don’t have copy machines or anything so you know how can we consistently do that and uh speak to that that that that

[00:20:31] helped verify that yeah we’ve got we’ve got evidence uh from early on of the the

[00:20:37] scribal traditions and the things that they would uh put in place for the copying the Scrolls and so on uh you

[00:20:44] know so the scribes would count uh every word of the Torah for example they would count every three uh let you know every

[00:20:52] uh verse of the tour I mean and they go through and they know the middle letter they know the middle word of the Torah

[00:20:58] and so on uh so they’re very meticulous in what they did and so when we find the the the Dead Sea Scrolls these biblical

[00:21:05] texts there again uh they closely match the later medieval masoretic texts these

[00:21:10] texts at qumran we call them Proto Mt protomasoretic text that is because the

[00:21:16] maserites weren’t around yet it’s the same text tradition that the later maserites were preserving hence we call

[00:21:21] it Proto Mt right so we’ve got the Mt later on medieval period and we call it Proto Mt when we talk about the same

[00:21:27] text tradition which is represented there qumran but these manuscripts again it represents the same text tradition

[00:21:33] which we find a thousand years later which is remarkable and so uh so really

[00:21:39] just confirming that the biblical text has been Faithfully preserved over the centuries and so for example I’ll just

[00:21:45] bring up one of my favorites is I love to look at 4q Genesis B so again from K4

[00:21:50] the second copy of Genesis from K4 this is a manuscript dated to the First Century A.D a remarkable manuscript by

[00:21:58] the way in this case because it’s one of the few examples we have of virtually

[00:22:03] the entire creation account preserved uh and so is that Genesis 1 1 through uh

[00:22:11] yeah it’s got really really one one through about verse 28 so it’s got the majority of the creation account

[00:22:16] preserved uh there’s very beautiful uh preserved there but when you look at 4q Genesis B for

[00:22:24] example uh it’s rare it’s significant because it preserves them we’ve got the opening words of scripture they’re just

[00:22:29] incredible to read this first century text of the creation account uh there

[00:22:34] and so uh it’s virtually identical to the medieval Master right of text I think there’s one uh orthographical

[00:22:40] difference one spelling difference that’s not a textual variant that’s just a spelling difference there one letter

[00:22:45] so they you spell the same word for example uh with with uh with an

[00:22:51] additional letter or without it it didn’t matter and so we have what we call the full or plenty spelling we have what we call defective spelling

[00:22:58] um and so it wasn’t one was a wrong spelling and the other was a correct spelling they just spelled it different ways

[00:23:04] um and so I don’t want to get in too much detail there but it’s it’s virtually identical to the masoretic

[00:23:09] text that we have today when you look at four Q Genesis what Jesus what Jesus was reading was actually what we’re reading

[00:23:15] also is what you’re saying well and that’s the point so in other words uh when we read the text of the Genesis

[00:23:21] creation account today which is based on the masoretic text we are reading the same same text that people were reading

[00:23:26] two thousand years ago during the second temple period right so yeah that’s good news yeah so uh so and Jesus references

[00:23:36] I mean he he refers to Genesis he refers to the law he refers to the prophets and

[00:23:41] so we know that what we’re reading is what he was referencing there’s no guessing about that he had you know you

[00:23:47] know potentially uh some different version of the Bible than what we have today yeah and so we can have confidence

[00:23:53] that the biblical text has been preserved but it’s it’s a it’s a a bigger picture than that so we don’t

[00:23:58] want to oversimplify what we find among the Dead Sea Scrolls uh the biblical texts are remarkable not just because we

[00:24:05] find manuscripts that we call Proto Mt which confirmed the faithful transmission of the text over the

[00:24:10] centuries but we also uh find biblical texts there that shed light on the

[00:24:16] ancient Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible which is known as the Septuagint so which does differ at times from the

[00:24:22] masoretic text depending on which book of the Bible you’re looking at so in the Torah for example uh you’re talking

[00:24:28] minor differences a word here a word there you’ve got the the valve you know and here and it’s not there I mean so

[00:24:35] there’s nothing changing anything doctrinally or anything like that you’re just talking some slight little changes

[00:24:40] uh that kind of thing so minor changes other books of the Bible however we see significant changes for example in the

[00:24:46] book of Jeremiah where we have uh whole sections that differ that are missing uh in one versus the other or that are

[00:24:53] rearranged we have different order in the uh Mt Jeremiah versus the Septuagint of Jeremiah for example uh so

[00:25:01] interestingly enough uh Scholars kind of many scholars kind of question the validity of the Septuagint as a reliable

[00:25:07] translation uh and what’s interesting is that the New Testament writers for example often when they cite from the

[00:25:13] Old Testament they cite the Greek translation uh and so the question then is raised is the Septuagint a reliable

[00:25:21] translation right that’s that’s an important question is with the New Testament for example and their use of

[00:25:27] the Old Testament and so one of the things that they found for example uh

[00:25:32] some of the biblical Scrolls at qumran revealed the existence of the Hebrew base text the Hebrew warlog for the

[00:25:39] readings that are found in Greek translations so we actually have a Hebrew text that underlies the Greek

[00:25:46] translation these variant readings that we find from the masoretic text which suggests that the Septuagint is actually

[00:25:52] a faithful conservative translation of the Hebrew text that actually existed

[00:25:57] during that time during the second temple period during the period of the New Testament so for example we actually

[00:26:03] had two Jeremiah manuscripts the four Q Jeremiah b and 4q jeremiahd which attest

[00:26:09] to a Hebrew text tradition that underlies the Greek version of Jeremiah which by the way is a shorter version

[00:26:15] with some sections of text that’s arranged in it in an order that’s different from the masoretic text so

[00:26:21] simply put the variant readings the that are attested in the biblical Scrolls

[00:26:27] from qumran indicate that the Septuagint translators carefully worked from a

[00:26:33] Hebrew text tradition that differed from the mass Reddit text that actually existed during that time and so really

[00:26:39] validating the Septuagint as a reliable translation from the second temple period now I think that’s also

[00:26:45] fascinating and important that we see that among the Dead Sea Scrolls as well and I’ll add one other thing here

[00:26:52] because I want to make sure that our heroes have a complete picture here so that we don’t misspeak when we talk about the biblical text of qumran sure

[00:26:59] there’s also a few manuscripts there as well that reflect another Hebrew text known as The Samaritan pentateuch and so

[00:27:06] many might not be as familiar with the Samaritan pentitude this is what is

[00:27:11] known as a deliberate revision or a recession of an earlier Hebrew text tradition that’s attested at qumran and

[00:27:19] of course preserved in the masoretic text so they kind of take it and expand it a little bit to kind of harm

[00:27:24] harmonize text within the Torah that’s what they do so it largely represents the masoretic text tradition but you

[00:27:31] have some expansions and so on some interpretive moves that are being made so this when you say expansions when you

[00:27:37] say expansions do you mean um as in they’re doing this in order to to explain more what is what is being

[00:27:44] written correct so they’ll take passages parallel passages from elsewhere in the Torah and insertative for example

[00:27:51] um and so uh so they often uh expand certain texts by inserting parallel

[00:27:57] material from other passages within the Torah and in fact it even includes a few what we call sectarian insertions uh

[00:28:05] additions so additions that are made by these sectarian groups such as for example in the decalogue they actually

[00:28:11] add a command that they are to worship at Mount Garrison like for example and now that’s a later thing that we see for

[00:28:18] example uh discussed in John 4 that’s an issue there with the Samaritan woman at

[00:28:24] the well right but this mountain or do we worship at that mountain well this is one of those uh we have texts uh from

[00:28:31] this time period now right so before the Dead Sea Scrolls we have relatively late copies of the Samaritan pentateuch but

[00:28:37] now what we have are texts such as 4q paleo Exodus M for example which is an

[00:28:42] written in ancient paleo Hebrew which is phenomenal uh so what is Paleo what is

[00:28:48] Paleo Hebrew so it’s the old Hebrew script uh so it looks more like it’s earlier uh it looks a little bit more

[00:28:55] pictographic if you will uh it’s a little bit more it looks like the ancient Phoenician script uh and so it’s

[00:29:02] streamlined and looks more like the Hebrews square or Jewish script once you get into after the Exile uh and so you

[00:29:10] have the influence of Aramaic that takes place in the Exile after 586 BC uh when

[00:29:15] Nebuchadnezzar destroyed the temple and they go into Exile and so you have a large influence there which changes so

[00:29:22] you have different scripts that are being used you have the pillow Hebrew which looks like Phoenician then you’ve got the Jewish Square script it’s also

[00:29:28] known as the Assyrian or the Aramaic Square script that takes place same language written in two different

[00:29:33] scripts so we actually have both scripts represented among the Dead Sea Scrolls it’s really really cool in fact a lot of

[00:29:39] the manuscripts are written are written in the uh the Jewish Square script but the tetragrammaton the Divine name

[00:29:45] Yahweh is written in paleo Hebrew for example oh wow and so there’s lots of

[00:29:50] interesting neat little things that you see in these texts here by going back to the Samaritan pentateuch real quick we

[00:29:56] had relatively late copies now we’ve got earlier copies such as 4q paleo Exodus m

[00:30:03] uh for example and so uh that’s a manuscript that’s dated to the first

[00:30:08] century BC that is remarkable and so it close it’s closely related to The

[00:30:13] Samaritan pentateuch uh including the textual expansions but it actually lacks

[00:30:19] um the sectarian readings that were added due to certain beliefs because of the Samaritan community so some of those

[00:30:24] particular ones that are particular to the Samaritan Community while this one has expansions it says same tradition it

[00:30:30] lacks the Samaritan expansions which is very interesting it suggests that the sectarian readings of the Samaritans may

[00:30:37] have been a later alteration to an expansionist to an expansionistic text edition of the tour that was already

[00:30:44] known in Antiquity and was already in use among various communities at that time so we had that text tradition

[00:30:50] present there but it looks it looks like we had later alterations to that by the Samaritans so we have earlier editions

[00:30:57] of that that don’t have the Samaritan editions for example so this is phenomenal we’ve got text the the

[00:31:04] probably the most representative of those we’ve got some texts that are what they call non-aligned they they can’t

[00:31:09] really Peg it into one text tradition but the text tradition that’s represented the most is the Proto Mt

[00:31:16] that is the same text tradition which the mass roots are preserving which our Bibles today are based on that’s good

[00:31:21] news which again confirming the faithful trans transmission of the text over the centuries but we also do find and this

[00:31:28] is good news we find Hebrew texts that underlie the Septuagint which confirm or

[00:31:33] invalidate the Septuagint as a faithful conservative translation of a Hebrew text tradition that actually existed

[00:31:39] during that time we also have a Hebrew Texas tradition represented there the Samaritan pentateuch as well which is

[00:31:46] also remarkable so this is a tremendous picture that we have being filled in from the second temple period so what we

[00:31:53] have is a stable what I’ll say is along with the Emmanuel Tove who argued that what we have here is from our earliest

[00:32:00] extant text our earliest physical management our earliest evidence we have a stable text tradition alongside these

[00:32:08] various text Traditions as well so what what many refer to as this textual plurality but we have a stable text

[00:32:15] tradition from the earliest times there alongside these other text Traditions

[00:32:20] there so this is far from being something to shy away from this is

[00:32:26] something that should excite us as Christians as lovers of the word of God

[00:32:31] so that’s fantastic I I love what you’re you’re sharing with us here so you know what comes to my mind is

[00:32:38] um you know I’ve heard recently that there’s a rumor that the Chinese government wants to rewrite the Bible and take certain portions out and

[00:32:45] rewrite things so it fits better for uh supporting the authority of the the Chinese government

[00:32:51] um and then of course we have things like the New World Translation which is the Jehovah’s Witness Bible which um

[00:32:57] they uh modified certain scriptures in order to fit their theological viewpoints

[00:33:03] um and so then we get to what you’re talking about here the Samaritan pentateuch and these sorts of things and I think the question some people ask is

[00:33:09] well how do you know that this one’s not the right one and this one is the right one and uh how do you know that you know

[00:33:16] you know with all these quote different versions right what gives you the

[00:33:22] confidence that the Bible we have today is and I know you answered this in a sense already but if you could just

[00:33:27] re-establish that why is it that our Bible today is the correct version as

[00:33:33] opposed to the Samaritan pentateuch or you know whatever else might be yeah

[00:33:39] it’s a good question there um so in particular there was this idea

[00:33:44] there’s kind of two different understandings here the scholars have had as far as the development of the

[00:33:49] text historically speaking going back to this time period And so uh one view has

[00:33:55] been this idea of the um the standardization of the Hebrew text so in

[00:34:02] other words what we have is textual plurality there’s no fixed text in particular and then by the end of the

[00:34:08] First Century A.D what we actually find at the end of the first century uh again after the destruction of the temple in

[00:34:14] ad70 by the Romans uh you got to understand this is a major historical event the entire religious

[00:34:22] sociopolitical system has been destroyed uh the people are in Exile once again

[00:34:27] and again ultimately after the second Revolt under a barcodefa in the second century uh but after the destruction of

[00:34:34] the temple in the First Century A.D in 80 70 this changed everything

[00:34:40] um and so again this disrupted everything by the end of the first century so you’ve got the the so the

[00:34:48] um uh the Sadducees who were the primary ones there in the temple they’re gone no

[00:34:53] longer be heard from again uh the uh the essenes uh the site was destroyed

[00:34:59] in ad68 as the Roman army is on its way to Jerusalem uh perhaps they were at a

[00:35:05] Masada uh for the last stand there uh up until 80 73 or 74 when Masada fell which

[00:35:11] Josephus records uh when the the Romans lead Siege to Masada a remarkable story

[00:35:17] there but perhaps the essenes were there we have some manuscripts that have been matched to ascribe from qumran their

[00:35:24] Masada for example uh and so perhaps some of them fled south from qumran from

[00:35:29] the Northwestern shore of the Dead Sea down south to Masada to that Fortress

[00:35:34] Plateau that Herod had built on top of and uh but the essenes were never heard

[00:35:40] from again uh until we found the Dead Sea Scrolls which is really a telling story uh by the way because they hid

[00:35:46] those Scrolls intending to come back for them and this is really a tragic story they never came back for them and in

[00:35:54] God’s good Providence though they were observed yeah was it remarkably for

[00:36:00] posterity’s sake and so that that in and of itself is another story but back to your question though

[00:36:06] um the idea was that there was a standardization of the Hebrew text by the end of the first century the only

[00:36:12] group really that is left are the Pharisees uh and so you’ve got the Pharisees and you’ve got these religious

[00:36:19] scribes and Scholars there uh yavneh there are no counsel there they’re not determining what scripture and so on but

[00:36:25] you do have um uh that’s what’s left there and so there are some from the from the end of

[00:36:31] the first century on everything is Proto Mt there’s a uniformity across the board

[00:36:36] uh so all the Hebrew texts all the rabbinic uh Traditions are citing Proto Mt in fact the Greek versions from the

[00:36:45] second century theodosian Aquila simicus all of them right which were meant to supersede the old Greek from earlier are

[00:36:52] actually bringing their versions more in alignment with the Proto Mt everything is Proto Mt from the end of the first

[00:36:59] century on and so Scholars look at that and they talk about the standardization of the text the idea that you have

[00:37:04] textual plurality and then there’s this in some ways an arbitrary decision

[00:37:10] that’s made in which you standardize the text and we go with a particular text tradition which still kind of begs the

[00:37:16] question then why this one and not the others well Manuel Tove has actually come along and says no he talks about

[00:37:24] the myth of the standardization of scripture and I remember when I first saw that I kind of made my ears kind of

[00:37:29] say what and I read that and he made some interesting points because what he talks about is no because the one says

[00:37:37] no we have textual plurality followed by textual uniformity right and there’s

[00:37:42] this this standardization that takes place uh arbitrarily or so on he says no what we actually have is we have a text

[00:37:49] tradition that’s associated with the temple naturally with the scribes who are associated with the temple the preservation that’s where the biblical

[00:37:56] text would have been stored up in the temple we see evidence of that in scripture itself where the holy books

[00:38:01] are stored up in holy places there in the um the Ark of the Covenant for example we see the shechem the same

[00:38:07] thing as well we said a rabbinic tradition that testifies to these texts

[00:38:13] being stored up in the Temple and so on so we see biblical and extra biblical witness there to the tradition of

[00:38:19] storing up these books in a holy place and the temple would have been the natural place to store these books so he

[00:38:25] talks about the the Proto Mt as this stable text Traditions what we find from

[00:38:30] our earliest text being there among uh and associated with the temple then you

[00:38:36] have outside of the temple you have all of these what we call free copies so you got all kind of different texts there

[00:38:41] from out there’s no uh regulation of that outside of the temple and the scribal tradition and so on and so

[00:38:48] naturally you’re going to find other text Traditions that’s that’s not a big deal what he talks about there though is

[00:38:54] what we have from the earliest time is we have a stable text tradition from the beginning there from the temple

[00:39:00] associated with the temple and we have that there qumran as well it’s the most attested text Tradition at Quran even

[00:39:05] though we do have other text Traditions represented that’s fine so there is a textual plurality but he talks about a

[00:39:12] stable text tradition and so we have a uniformity of text so we have plurality

[00:39:17] alongside uniformity so from our earliest Witnesses we have a stable uniform text tradition there and I think

[00:39:24] his understanding is I think a better understanding and what actually happens is just as history itself unfolded

[00:39:32] naturally the other text Traditions fell by the wayside yeah arbitrary decision

[00:39:37] made by these Scholars to say yep we want this text tradition and not that text tradition there’s always that

[00:39:44] stable text tradition there associated with the temple after the destruction of the temple everything else I mean everything was disrupted there at the

[00:39:51] destruction of the temple and the one that that continues is of course the stable text tradition the Proto Mt

[00:39:57] everything else just fell into disuse yeah because the early church fathers did it better that way I think gotcha

[00:40:03] yeah that makes a lot of sense and the early church fathers I I was actually reading some uh really interesting things uh I I was told that you could

[00:40:11] essentially rebuild I mean this is the New Testament but you could essentially rebuild the entire New Testament just

[00:40:16] based on the on the quotes of the Old Testament yes I’m sorry of the early church fathers which yeah I found that

[00:40:21] to be pretty amazing uh in and of itself and that that also confirms that this is the inspired word of God

[00:40:28] um as opposed to like you said the things like the Samaritan pentateuch which is more commentary on the scripture and then we we get to oh but

[00:40:36] this is the scriptures these are the inspired words of God and by the way even with the Samaritan pentateuch it’s

[00:40:41] not that you say well which one do you like better we it’s essentially the same text tradition when you look at the

[00:40:47] samaritin Pena too and the Proto Mt it’s very obvious where we have the additions and why they did those additions there

[00:40:54] so we we can assess these men manuscripts that we’re looking at uh and understand why these these additions are

[00:41:01] made and so on by the way in Antiquity scribes didn’t didn’t take as much issue

[00:41:06] with adding things to the text not not because there was a lack of reverence for the word of God it’s because they

[00:41:12] revered it as the word of God that they would put additional explanatory notes or they would just add something there uh so kind of interpretation in and

[00:41:19] around the text and so it wasn’t because they had a lower view of scripture it’s because they viewed it uh as

[00:41:26] authoritative and it was just simply a part of the scribal tradition in in adding those things to the text so it’s

[00:41:32] a little different for us to think about but it’s very interesting as we go back and look at how the ancient scribes

[00:41:37] handled the biblical text and preserved it for posterity’s sake so because it’s not only about preserving the letters

[00:41:44] every John Tittle of the text but it’s also preserving uh the reading of the text and helping people understand the

[00:41:51] text itself so uh Dr Lyon both of your Books Deals very specifically with for

[00:41:56] example like The Genesis Flood and the Genesis creation account yeah um that’s your focus on okay I’m gonna examine the

[00:42:03] Dead Sea Scrolls in this this particular area um what for you as you’ve been studying

[00:42:08] this and as you were writing those books um is there anything that stands out as

[00:42:13] really kind of hits you as whoa this is amazing this is not something I had seen before

[00:42:19] not something I had thought of before is there anything that that for you was a really kind of something that kind of

[00:42:26] um was amazing to you well all of it yeah so it’s really quite remarkable you know

[00:42:34] I refer to the maseries the later scribes as theological studs because they are we ought to be grateful for the

[00:42:39] maseries now look at these scribes it’s not a phrase you hear very often well it’s a phrase that I use I I like that

[00:42:47] I’m gonna I’m gonna put that on a shirt or something we we all should be grateful for the

[00:42:53] maseries but also as I go back and look at the second temple period and look at the scribes and the work that they were doing there it is remarkable uh the text

[00:43:00] that they have it’s very interesting by the way uh so a couple of things I can talk about uh one of the things that I

[00:43:07] looked at for example among the biblical manuscripts because remember there’s interpretation that even takes

[00:43:13] place around the biblical text on the scribal level and that’s something that people don’t think about oftentimes so

[00:43:21] um for example in the way these since divisions uh so we have what are called patuca and satuma patuka is a large or

[00:43:29] an open section break kind of like paragraph divisions large units of text and there’s certain ways the scribes

[00:43:35] would uh Mark those large section breaks there and then we have what are called a

[00:43:40] satuma these are small or closed section breaks subdivisions within those larger units and so the way that you divide a

[00:43:48] text the way that you lay out a text uh tell something about how you understand the text the way that you lay

[00:43:55] a text out affects the way that someone reads a text this is an interpretive move on the part of the scribes now

[00:44:01] what’s interesting here for example with the Genesis manuscripts is these are our earliest extent text that we have now we

[00:44:08] don’t know if these since divisions represent uh the the authors since

[00:44:13] divisions the original since divisions or if this is at the least uh early interpretation of the text from

[00:44:21] the first centuries BC and First Century A.D so for example with the Genesis creation account we see large section

[00:44:28] breaks these uh patuco the plural form there these uh large section breaks uh

[00:44:34] at the end of each of the days of creation so at the end of uh verse five the end of day one right the end of

[00:44:39] verse 8 at the end Etc at the end of day two three four five six you see these large section breaks there so it’s

[00:44:44] divided according to days we say that’s great and all that makes sense but it’s interesting by the way uh and so you

[00:44:51] have so too much smaller divisions as well sometimes they vary from scribe to scribe because those are interpretive moves but we have the same sense

[00:44:57] divisions there in 4q Genesis B which I mentioned preserves the creation account

[00:45:03] um pretty good portion of that 4q Genesis G of first century BC manuscript also does as well both of those actually

[00:45:10] preserve the opening five verses as well which is very interesting uh because the

[00:45:16] same sense divisions in those first century BC and First Century A.D manuscripts at qumran are the same since

[00:45:22] divisions it’s not only the the the letters the words that are preserved exactly in the lenigrad Codex but the

[00:45:29] sense divisions are also preserved in the linigrade Codex as well so we have the same uh paragraph divisions uh

[00:45:36] breaking break up there in the later medieval masoretic text that we have there in this uh there in

[00:45:44] the qumran text now what’s interesting is we don’t have a section break until

[00:45:49] after verse 5. which by the way it’s not because there’s too small amount of text we

[00:45:55] actually have other Kumon biblical texts that have uh section breaks in much smaller areas of text there so it’s not

[00:46:02] because there’s a small unit of text by verses there that’s discouraging that that’s actually to be read as a single

[00:46:08] unit what we have is physical manuscript evidence that suggests here that all the

[00:46:15] first five verses were to be read as part of day one there’s no suggestion whatsoever that verse 1 and or verse 2

[00:46:22] is separate from verses three through five and that’s an important interpretive issue for today because we

[00:46:28] have Scholars who want to read the beginning of day one some will say it’s at the beginning uh there in verse one

[00:46:34] the initial creative act on day one is in verse one the creation of the heavens and the Earth verse two is then uh given

[00:46:41] us in a parenthetical statement describing the condition of the Earth as it was originally created on day one and

[00:46:47] then verse three continues the creation there with the creation of light and that’s the traditional View there that

[00:46:53] is what most creationists hold to uh there are others who would say no day

[00:46:58] one begins on verse two and verse 1 either represents a uh a heading right

[00:47:05] which would then potentially mean that verse 2 begins with

[00:47:10] pre-existent matter right where does that come from not only that or if verse

[00:47:17] 1 is the original creative act numbers two is where day one begins then you also allow for uh an undetermined amount

[00:47:24] of time prior to day one right so you got both the issue of the potential for

[00:47:29] allowing for a pre-existent matter and also for an undetermined amount unspecified amount of time prior to day

[00:47:35] one others yet further will place the beginning of day one on day three with

[00:47:40] verse one again serving as a heading and therefore you have pre-existent matter potentially there when day one begins in

[00:47:47] verse three or they see verse one as the creation of the university in the beginning billions of years ago and this

[00:47:54] unspecified time until the beginning of day one and verse three so again this is

[00:47:59] a major interpretive question here uh for the beginning of day one what’s interesting here among the manuscripts

[00:48:06] at qumran is that there’s no suggestion whatsoever that verses one and two are to be read separate that they are

[00:48:12] distinct from verses three through five verses one through five are to be read as a single text unit that is day one

[00:48:19] begins in verse one uh with the creation of the heavens and the Earth uh and so I find that very interesting that we have

[00:48:25] positive textual evidence with no suggestion whatsoever of day one beginning anywhere other than in verse

[00:48:32] one and so that’s just an interesting thing that I look at from the scribal uh

[00:48:37] uh divisions there just the uh the layout of the creation narrative yeah

[00:48:42] like you said that’s a that’s is a big debate in our you know among theologians and others today over whether the it’s

[00:48:50] actually six literal days of creation or whether these is you know like the framework hypothesis which says okay

[00:48:56] there the days represent indefinite uh amounts of time um and so that’s actually something that

[00:49:03] supports the fact that the Hebrews believed in a six day creation 24-hour

[00:49:09] days as we know it is that is that correct yeah not only they believe in six days 24 hours but the the day one

[00:49:15] began there in verse one and so that the creation of man was at the beginning not billions of years after the beginning uh

[00:49:22] and so for example what’s another interesting thing here just a fascinating thing one of the most

[00:49:28] popular uh manuscripts one of the most popular uh texts at qumran is uh the

[00:49:34] book of jubilees so many of our heroes might have heard of the book of jubilees uh it’s actually uh the book of jubilees

[00:49:40] there’s a a number of copies found there there at qumrall I’m very popular text there

[00:49:48] and also with the Book of Enoch two very popular books which by the way are included uh for example in the uh the

[00:49:55] ethiopic Orthodox Canon but there are very popular books there at qumran and

[00:50:00] so in their pocketbooks even today for some particular groups but the book of jubilees and Enoch were very influential

[00:50:06] in the second temple period and the Book of jubilees very interestingly enough you have this Revelation to Moses out

[00:50:13] Mount Sinai and his return the Angels were counting to Moses and from creation all the way up to Sinai and so it goes

[00:50:20] back and it kind of gives us the history there and so you had this kind of retelling from creation all the way through it’s very uh very interesting

[00:50:27] book but what we have with um uh the book of jubilees at qumran I

[00:50:34] bring that up for a reason here um we actually find a Hebrew text of

[00:50:40] jubilees at qumran 4q jubilees eight uh so it was originally written in Hebrew

[00:50:45] of the book of jubilees it was translated into Greek and subsequently it was translated into from Greek into

[00:50:52] Latin and ethiopic uh so the book is preserved in its entirety only in ethiopic texts okay uh so it appears

[00:51:00] that the Hebrew text of jubilees passed out of use sometime in Antiquity we don’t know when

[00:51:05] after the destruction of the second temple in ad70 and so nothing from the

[00:51:11] Hebrew text of jubilees was thought to have survived that is until the

[00:51:16] discoveries there qumran now all of a sudden we have a Hebrew copy of the book

[00:51:21] of jubilees and we actually have some extant text of the retelling part of creation and so we can go back and look

[00:51:28] at that and one of the things we find there as well is that the book of jubilees was actually remarkably preserved as well by the scribes over

[00:51:35] the centuries so it’s really neat but one of the neat things there there’s 14

[00:51:40] or 15 copies of jubilees at qumran but if you look at jubilees uh in the

[00:51:46] retelling of the creation account so for example on day one uh one of the things

[00:51:51] that it does it’s really neat is what it does it talks about that all of these laws and all these ordinances and so on

[00:51:58] for Israel were not established as Sinai these are part of the created orb they go back to Creation the Sabbath didn’t

[00:52:04] begin then it began at creation uh God uh had Israel in mind in the first

[00:52:10] Sabbath there’s all these things that they’re bringing up which is actually quite remarkable but one of the things here with uh in relationship to some of

[00:52:17] the questions that we’re talking about here is on day one uh the book of jubilees mentions in

[00:52:23] jubilees 2 and lines two in two and three it mentions a total of seven great

[00:52:29] works that were created on day one the heavens the Earth the waters and according to

[00:52:36] jubilees the Angels were created on day one the abysses or the Deep the the tone the Deep The Depths Darkness and Light

[00:52:44] so while the biblical base text that is Genesis 1 1-5 is certainly discernible

[00:52:50] here by the way this retelling of God’s creative acts on day one it freely

[00:52:56] reformulates it omits and adds material it lists all these angels and so on it’s really neat but I want you to notice

[00:53:02] here right that it mentions here the creation of the heavens the Earth the

[00:53:08] water I mean this this is verses one and two that’s included as part of day one according to the book of jubilees well

[00:53:15] and that shows us there are the Hebrews interpretation of Genesis so we don’t

[00:53:23] we’re actually finding out what they actually believed versus what we are imposing potentially

[00:53:30] on scripture because of a modern uh correct interpretation correct yes so so

[00:53:36] you’ve got all kinds of interesting things that you’re finding in these texts they’re qumran uh jubilees of course was known before that but we

[00:53:43] actually have Hebrew manuscripts now of of jubilees and we have one that actually preserves the retelling of the

[00:53:49] creation uh narrative there that’s amazing that is incredible well um you

[00:53:55] know have they um so so are they because these were found over a series of years

[00:54:00] are they expecting to find more of these or are they have they cleaned out all the caves and it’s uh it’s a done deal

[00:54:06] uh that’s a great question so there are literally hundreds hundreds of caves in

[00:54:13] the Judean Wilderness if you’ve been to the Judean Wilderness you understand the scripture’s statement that people flee

[00:54:18] to the Wilderness you know when the armies come I mean great hiding places the Jews would go into the Wilderness

[00:54:23] and hide in these caves but when the Romans came and so we’ve actually taken students there uh with my University to

[00:54:30] dig at wadimirabat which is one of the other locations where manuscripts were found so qumran there are 11 caves there

[00:54:37] around that’s around the Northwestern Shore the Dead Sea where Quebec coomeran the ruins of qumran are and so all

[00:54:44] around there you have uh kind of the the moral Terrace uh kind of plateau with

[00:54:49] the site sits on and then you have these Limestone Cliffs that line it and go along along north south there in that

[00:54:56] Ridge there so we had caves that were found in the Limestone Cliffs and

[00:55:01] they’re in the moral Terrace in which the the site itself sits upon uh and so

[00:55:07] some of those caves were were uh Dwelling Places there in the moral Terrace the ones up in the Limestone

[00:55:13] Cliffs were almost certainly not Dwelling Places but they’re they’re just there for hiding purposes so they’re

[00:55:18] literally hundreds of them they’ve done uh surveys across the Judean Wilderness

[00:55:24] um and between 1947 and 1956 11 caves were found to have manuscripts in them

[00:55:30] but uh beginning in like 1952 for example further south at wadimir abat uh

[00:55:36] they found manuscripts from the second Century A.D so quite as all but just

[00:55:42] about that’s still pretty old well it’s still pretty impressive and so they of course found manuscripts at Masada some

[00:55:48] of them almost certainly came from qumran so some of the ones that Masada date to the person entry because Masada

[00:55:54] was destroyed in ad73 so those dates of the first century and earlier those that Masada and so we find some at Vladimir

[00:56:01] also at Nicole cover we find manuscripts from the second century as well we find

[00:56:07] uh documents about daily life of Jews they’re hidden up there from the Roman

[00:56:12] army uh before their deaths there and sometimes they were starved to death

[00:56:18] there all kind of tactics that the Romans Army would do but they have found

[00:56:23] so they have found manuscripts at other locations in the Judean Wilderness but besides qumran but the Dead Sea Scrolls

[00:56:30] in particular right specifically refer to the ones found at qumran and also sometimes when they talk about the Dead

[00:56:36] Sea scroll sometimes they include the other manuscripts found at these other sites such as Vladimir Botanical Heber

[00:56:42] Masada and a few other sites as well now I haven’t said what you just said

[00:56:48] um uh yes they still anticipate I’ve talked to people there I’ve been there I have

[00:56:54] Doug in in a cave at Wally murabbat I’ve been to the caves uh their Quran various caves uh and uh interacted with people

[00:57:01] who are there and so they’re they’re fairly certain one there are hundreds of caves and they’re trying to find which

[00:57:08] ones might be the best ones to look in uh but they suspect that we might find

[00:57:13] more in the future and so only a small I mean a tiny fraction have actually been

[00:57:20] excavated so there’s so much out there that’s not even been excavated uh so the

[00:57:25] potential to find some is certainly out there what’s interesting is if you remember back here recently they

[00:57:31] actually found their Nicole Heber they actually found another fragment from

[00:57:36] um uh from the book of The Twelve a Greek copy of the book of The Twelve from a manuscript that was found earlier

[00:57:42] uh back in the 50s or 60s well they found another fragment that belongs to that uh just here recently there and so

[00:57:50] that was the first of those that have been found in basically 60 years uh so that was pretty fun so that is amazing

[00:57:56] yeah so there is potential to find more uh so for those of you listening you you

[00:58:02] heard it here from Dr lion um if you’re an Explorer man get out there there’s still stuff to find so

[00:58:07] yeah yeah pretty incredible well uh Dr Lyon thanks so much for uh

[00:58:13] doing the program this evening and just being here and and uh your expert lending us your expertise so that’s a

[00:58:18] big blessing yep uh no problem uh do we have time for uh anymore uh I’ve got one other

[00:58:25] manuscript but yeah yeah no no no tell us about it all right so there’s one other one that I just kind of mentioned

[00:58:31] here and that’s uh uh Fork it’s a 4q50 for us uh divreach it’s the words of The

[00:58:38] Luminaries this is a a prayer text a liturgical text and what they actually do is they have a prayer for each day of

[00:58:44] the week and uh so the prayer for day one and they kind of work their way through the Canon of scripture so the

[00:58:49] prayer for day one they rehearse kind of these historical events these great works of God so day one prayer starts

[00:58:57] with creation the creation of Adam and it goes through the flood and the The Exodus and Wilderness and then it has

[00:59:03] kind of these prayers and these these uh these cries for certain things and then come to the conclusion and so it kind of

[00:59:09] works its way through what’s interesting there we’ve got an interesting interpretations uh and and their

[00:59:15] understanding of Adam For example uh so they refer to Adam as our father for

[00:59:20] example they relate the the creation of Adam he’s created from the dust yet he’s

[00:59:27] created uh uh there he reflects the glory of God it’s his language that’s

[00:59:32] not used in the biblical text there but it’s found here uh talks about him being created with knowledge and all these

[00:59:38] kind of things there and that the people of God are there have this knowledge there in the land just as Adam their

[00:59:43] father had there in the land of Eden it Likens the land there that Adam inhabited to the land of the people of

[00:59:48] God were inhabiting there in um the promised land which by the way is something that we see in the Torah

[00:59:55] itself that link between the Garden of Eden and the land that God’s people would inhabit where God would Tabernacle

[01:00:01] with his people as he Tabernacle with Adam and Eve there in the Garden of Eden uh but there’s some interesting things

[01:00:07] that happen there and one of the things that I want to bring up there is because when we look at

[01:00:14] uh 4q 504 this liturgical text and I don’t have time to get into all the

[01:00:19] details and the interpretations there uh I’ll put a Shameless plug you can’t check out my book on that deal more

[01:00:24] detail uh with that it is really interesting but as far as the implications from this type of text it’s

[01:00:30] a liturgical text but we find some neat things one of the things that we see is that Adam was certainly understood by

[01:00:38] these ancient Jews as a historical figure as he was also understood in other qumran texts so one of the things

[01:00:44] that we do see and that’s a discussion today unfortunately that we see quite a bit but in Antiquity these Jews saw Adam

[01:00:51] clearly and unquestionably as a historical figure and it was understood not only in this text but also other

[01:00:58] qumran texts but it goes beyond this and here’s what’s interesting a Biblical Faith right a faith which is rooted

[01:01:05] which is lived out it’s rooted in history right our faith is a historical

[01:01:10] Faith it’s rooted in history the biblical text provided for these ancient

[01:01:16] Jews of the historical and Theological basis for their prayers

[01:01:22] for how they understood God how they understood their relationship and their service to God in other words the word

[01:01:29] of God actually impacted their lives the word of God ordered their very lives so

[01:01:35] interestingly enough today as we deal with apologetics I love apologetics and

[01:01:41] when we we talk about defending the historical veracity of the biblical text and we should

[01:01:46] however at the end of the day what remains on the table is what does this

[01:01:52] text mean we can defend it all day long but if we don’t know what it means if we can’t apply to our lives and live it out

[01:01:58] it doesn’t matter and one of the things that I find remarkable with these uh

[01:02:04] ancient Jews is that this text matters to their lives they believed it to be

[01:02:09] historical and in fact it was the reality of the great works of God in the past in the creation of the universe and

[01:02:15] the creation of Adam and Eve and the flood and all these things that they recall that provided the historical basis that

[01:02:22] got us faithful in the past he is powerful and they can trust him in the present for their lives today it ordered

[01:02:29] their very lives he had transformed their very lives they didn’t just believe that it was historical they

[01:02:34] believed that God actually acted in the past and that he would act in their lives in the present as well I think

[01:02:40] there’s so many lessons that we can learn and from those from an Antiquity from those in the past that we can apply

[01:02:47] in our lives today and so there’s so many asked what I find remarkable this is one of those things as you come along

[01:02:53] and look over the shoulders of these ancient Jews who were interpreting these texts and how valuable the word of God

[01:02:59] was for their lives and I’m not so sure I think in some ways that can serve as a a challenge to us today uh that it’s not

[01:03:07] just something that we defend and something that we talk about and argue about and so on but the word of God

[01:03:13] transforms Our Lives the word of God Is For Living I love that the relational aspect uh

[01:03:21] it’s so interesting because you’re right A lot of times when we look we’re studying these ancient texts and we’re looking into the past and

[01:03:28] um it can all often become depersonalized and um we just think of

[01:03:33] these people it’s hard to to think of them as real people because they’re they’re so long ago and yet what you’re

[01:03:39] saying there makes so much sense that um in the same way that we emphasize a relationship with Christ a relationship

[01:03:44] with God that’s what they were experiencing they were experiencing a relationship with God that impacted the way they live that’s so cool that’s uh

[01:03:52] amazing to be able to look into their minds and their hearts the way they treated the word of God that is that is

[01:03:57] really special well uh Dr lion thank you so much for your time I really appreciate it and uh I’m gonna plug your

[01:04:03] books here because so if you if you’ve been listening to this um this interview uh please check out his books if you

[01:04:09] want to look into more more of what he’s been sharing he’s the author of qumran interpretation of The Genesis Flood and

[01:04:16] also the Genesis creation account in the Dead Sea Scrolls you can check those out and uh buy those uh are those available

[01:04:22] on like Amazon and so forth yeah you can get them on Amazon you can go to whip and stock you can go to Barnes Noble

[01:04:27] pretty much any Bookseller awesome okay well thanks again uh Dr Lyon really

[01:04:32] appreciate it all right my pleasure to be here thank you for having me you’re welcome my website’s educateforlife.org

[01:04:37] there’s all kinds of resources up there for you for families who want to raise kids to become confident Christians

[01:04:43] there’s classes there’s lessons there’s articles to read we even have a class where we talk about the transmission of

[01:04:50] the the word of God and we do look at the qumran Dead Sea Sea Scrolls and some

[01:04:56] of those details that we talked about today so uh feel free to check those out if you’re listening we’ll be back with you again next week and uh thank you for

[01:05:02] taking the time to uh join us uh we look forward to being with you again God bless you and have a great night when

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