Mormonism the Counterfeit Faith with Kathleen & Brian Melonakos

[00:00:00] hey thanks a lot for being here today my name is Kevin Conover and we’re broadcasting on kprz 12 10 a.m down here

[00:00:06] in Southern California we’re also on FM 106.1 up in North County and um of

[00:00:12] course we’re a podcast also we’re all over the web and my name my name is Kevin Connor as I said my my Ministry I

[00:00:18] have a Ministry that helps young families and families of all ages really raise kids to become confident

[00:00:23] Christians and and I have a lot of families that I speak to who are struggling to help their kids know the

[00:00:28] truth and embrace their faith and really um just despite the skeptical culture

[00:00:34] that’s all around us so you can check that out at educateforlife.org there’s all kinds of resources there and

[00:00:39] curriculum that you can use if you’re homeschooling or if you have a home fellowship or um maybe you’re running a

[00:00:45] Christian school classroom even it’s a great curriculum that you can use that I built over 16 years so

[00:00:50] um today we’re going to be talking about a really important subject and that is specifically the Church of Jesus Christ

[00:00:57] of Latter-day Saints and before why uh hop in here let me tell you a little bit about our guests that is uh Brian and

[00:01:04] Kathleen and they are a married couple who was brought up in the Mormon Church

[00:01:09] Brian was raised in Michigan and he got a Bachelor’s degree in economics and eventually decided to leave the Mormon

[00:01:16] Church um but it was still a struggle for him to find the truth he did get an MBA from the University of Michigan he had a

[00:01:23] corporate career he he was very successful and a corporate executive in the medical industry and eventually he

[00:01:31] met Christ in 2001 his wife is a retired RN she’s worked in the hospitals and

[00:01:37] offices she studied philosophy at Stanford as well she she obtained a master’s degree and she’s the author of

[00:01:43] several different books and she also was raised in a Mormon family and eventually left the Mormon church she is related to

[00:01:52] Heber C Kimball who was very close to the founders of Mormonism and so they

[00:01:58] have uh written she’s written a book on specifically uh her family’s Heritage

[00:02:04] and all kinds of things including something that a lot of people aren’t don’t know a lot about which is uh the

[00:02:10] Mormons were actually counterfeiting dollars at one point in time they’re also the proud parents of three

[00:02:16] daughters and have two grandchildren uh Brian and Kathy I want to thank you so much for being on the program today it’s

[00:02:22] a real privilege to have you glad glad to be here and by the way

[00:02:27] since that bio was written we have three grandchildren now and it’s terrific grandchildren are fantastic that’s right

[00:02:35] that’s right you get to spoil them and then you get to leave right that’s exactly right

[00:02:40] so yeah your your last name is melanocus is that melanarkas but it’s it’s definitely

[00:02:48] Greek and um yeah and my grandparents all my

[00:02:55] four grandparents grew up in Greece and Brian and Kathy you also have a

[00:03:01] radio program on kprz also every Saturday 12 noon specifically on

[00:03:07] biblical citizenship Kathy can you tell us a little bit about that when covet happened we started to feel

[00:03:15] like we’d speak out and what should happen but our friend Stacy asked us

[00:03:20] they she said you guys are seeing some really good things how about be on the radio so

[00:03:26] um we took the opportunity we’ve been doing it for three plus years now and we want

[00:03:32] to get Christians activated and in the Public Square influencing for good because if we don’t we’re going to lose

[00:03:39] our freedoms including the freedom to speak the truth of God so amen amen

[00:03:44] that’s fantastic yeah and we need to store people up and and uh it’s wonderful because I’ve actually seen a lot of people really engaging like in in

[00:03:52] ways I’ve never seen before and and so that’s really exciting thank you for what you’re doing um I want to talk about

[00:03:58] um your heritage specifically I’m really curious can you tell us a little bit more uh Kathy first and then Brian but

[00:04:05] Kathy about the background of your family just so our listeners know how involved your family has been in the um

[00:04:13] the Mormon church okay by the way I usually go by Kathleen it’s

[00:04:18] just okay more unique than it but I don’t care it’s okay if you call

[00:04:25] me Kathy too but Gasolina my family I was my father was he he received Kimmel

[00:04:33] IV so he was directly descended from the right hand man of Brigham Young Who was

[00:04:38] the second president of the church and then my my mother’s side of the family too went

[00:04:44] back to Thomas Grover who was one of the Pioneers who first explored the West

[00:04:50] came West in the uh 1940s 1847 with the

[00:04:56] one of the very first companies to come to Salt Lake City so

[00:05:01] on both sides there’s a lot of Heritage and it’s just come down six Generations

[00:05:09] but my father was raised in a polygamy group because in

[00:05:14] 1890 they did not continue in the the official Mormon

[00:05:21] church with Billy me but there were subgroups that did continue it so he was one of the ones his father decided

[00:05:30] well Brigham Young said that you had to practice pulling me to get into heaven

[00:05:35] and why did it change you know he’s he thought it should continue so there was

[00:05:42] always this very uh conflict in my background and and it was always very secretive but my

[00:05:50] mother was and and her family was all in the mainstream Mormon church and my father

[00:05:56] left the polygaming room to join the mainstream and so we were raised going to church

[00:06:03] two or three times a week to the youth group into the Relief Society with the women’s group and to the you know all

[00:06:10] the activities we had speech festivals and dance festivals and and we we kind

[00:06:15] of stayed together as a culture and there’s a lot of presence of the Moana Church in the West

[00:06:21] so we weren’t as isolated as Brian was I mean there’s a big family big extended

[00:06:27] family and that was in California and Utah

[00:06:34] I had a big contingent in my high school of Mormons so it was it was it was a big

[00:06:39] deal when I left more than more so than him so Brian tell us about a little bit

[00:06:45] about your upbringing and uh Kathleen says that you were more isolated

[00:06:51] isolate isolated in terms of not having very many uh Mormons are on and

[00:06:57] Mormonism is an all-encompassing lifestyle it’s it’s your social life

[00:07:03] your faith life very often if you’re in Utah for example it’s typically

[00:07:08] intimately related with your career and your business life as well but

[00:07:14] none of my relatives were none of my ancestors or relatives were Mormon my

[00:07:20] mother converted when I was very young she was converted by Mormon missionaries my father never became a Mormon so we

[00:07:28] always had that tension in our home somewhat between a Mormon and a

[00:07:34] non-mormon and again when you’re a Mormon it’s it’s pretty involving it’s pretty uh it’s a big commitment

[00:07:40] so and I and I went to a very large High School of several thousand people and I

[00:07:46] was the only Mormon in my high school and I I lived it I didn’t for example I

[00:07:52] didn’t drink or smoke or uh other things and um to some degree that I I mean I still

[00:08:00] felt like I had a overall fairly happy time but in terms of I didn’t have the

[00:08:07] um you know surrounding Mormon Network that my wife did Growing Up and so when did you first start to

[00:08:13] question whether or not what you believed was true Brian I never questioned during the time I was

[00:08:20] living at home never I I went off to college I went to uh I went one year at

[00:08:26] Michigan State but then transferred to Brigham Young University and all that time I did not I I just it was the true

[00:08:33] church it was the only true church and that was it um ironically my first questioning came

[00:08:40] when I went on my mission as most faithful Mormon uh certainly young men

[00:08:46] and and some young women do so I went on a two-year mission to Switzerland I learned German and was by by missionary

[00:08:55] standards fairly successful in converting some families to uh to the

[00:09:01] Mormon church but also that’s when I had the first questions because I had all

[00:09:06] these people that I got to read the book of Mormon and pray about the Book of Mormon that did that and then from there

[00:09:14] it didn’t go like I was told it was supposed to that is they read the book of Mormon they prayed about it and the

[00:09:21] Holy Spirit wouldn’t or the Holy Ghost witnessed to them and then they got a testimony and they wanted to get

[00:09:26] baptized well in most cases that did not happen and then there was this one

[00:09:32] family my companion I worked with for five months they were in a different cult

[00:09:39] um after five months they they uh felt like it was uh they felt like it was the

[00:09:45] right thing for them to leave that cult and join the Mormon church but with that only lasted for two weeks after all that

[00:09:52] work after two weeks the father of the family said I have this is a nightmare

[00:09:57] I’ve been told God has told me I did a terrible thing I did the wrong thing we’re out of here so that that caused me

[00:10:04] to [Music] um and I can go into more detail but there’s actually one other important

[00:10:10] aspect my companion and I were both having these challenges and so we at one point in my mission

[00:10:16] my missionary companion you always have one companion you’re living with and working with we stopped working we said

[00:10:23] this is it we don’t even know if this is true we don’t even know if Jesus is really the Christ I mean who knows what’s true

[00:10:30] yeah um when you’re a Mormon you’re taught that all the other churches are false so you already believe all the

[00:10:36] other churches are false so there’s like nobody to go to if the Mormon Church itself is questionable so um we prayed

[00:10:46] and fasted for about two and a half days and I had two prayers

[00:10:53] I prayed is Jesus the Christ because I didn’t know and I prayed is the Book of Mormon true

[00:11:00] I played prayed those two individual prayers and I feel like I got a spiritual

[00:11:06] witness that Jesus was of Christ I felt uh I felt while I was praying that a white light came over me and I got that

[00:11:12] witness and then I prayed as the Book of Mormon true and I got nothing but uh vacuum kind of black

[00:11:20] and so uh and my missionary companion got nothing at all period he got no

[00:11:26] answer to his questions but we just somehow both of us just went back to

[00:11:32] work and uh finished I finished my two-year Mission and then I went to complete my education at BYU and this is

[00:11:40] where I met this young lady at Brigham Young University and um

[00:11:46] she can continue with her story and we can go back and forth what happened yeah I had another question about that Brian

[00:11:53] um so is this is this a common occurrence among um young Mormons where because you know

[00:11:59] they’re coming to the door and they’re frequently uh you know somebody May challenge them

[00:12:05] and say well how do you know this is true or whatever it may be does that does that cause a lot of young Mormons

[00:12:12] to actually question their faith and then ultimately leave the the Mormon church or is that is that uncommon what

[00:12:18] you experience no it’s not uncommon there’s um I start saw statistics one time but I

[00:12:25] can’t document The Source right now that maybe half of all um young Mormon missionaries leave the

[00:12:32] church at some point after they complete their mission it may not be in the first few years that may be later on but there

[00:12:40] are a lot of Mormon missionaries and it’s not because of it’s certain excuse me it’s certainly not because of

[00:12:46] rejection it’s not it’s certainly not because of somebody say slamming the door in your face which certainly

[00:12:51] happens but if anything that just you know fortifies you well these people obviously don’t have the Holy Spirit

[00:12:57] yeah um what does more typically is is what I

[00:13:03] was referring to I don’t think my experience I know it’s not that uncommon because you you really do believe that

[00:13:10] you know as long as they’re sincere and how can you prove if they’re sincere now

[00:13:15] but some of these people you really feel like yeah I think they’re pretty sincere they really are looking for something

[00:13:21] and they’ve been interested enough to talk to these two Americans that speak bad German because I was in the German

[00:13:28] part of Switzerland yeah and they really made the effort where most of their neighbors wanted to have nothing to do

[00:13:34] with us but these folks took the time to read this book of Mormon from this what

[00:13:40] is perceived still in Europe probably rightly so is still primarily an American Church even though the Mormon

[00:13:46] church is all over the world but let’s face it as very strong American foundations anyway

[00:13:52] with all that they they read the whole book and they pray about it and they say

[00:13:58] you know I don’t I don’t feel this is right or something like that and you say like what I mean how come they didn’t

[00:14:04] get an angel come down or something you know yeah that’s interesting because I had that I’ve had that happen several

[00:14:10] times where I’ve had particular Mormons witness to me and they’re waiting for something to happen to me too and uh at

[00:14:16] first I was confused because it was when I was younger and I didn’t understand Mormon Doctrine or anything but

[00:14:22] um I I now realize what’s going on and and you know what their expectation is and that I’m going to get some sort of a

[00:14:27] feeling that they uh say is the holy spirit confirming that this is true and

[00:14:33] uh but Kathleen um you know you wrote a book uh you know on this subject matter

[00:14:40] and I and I I’m very curious it says um secret combinations evidence of early

[00:14:47] Mormon counterfeiting um the Holy Spirit a little bit first oh

[00:14:52] yeah absolutely before you go on to that yeah

[00:14:57] this it they definitely do want you or promise you that you will get a feeling

[00:15:03] and that will tell you if it’s true or not and they think that the holy spirit is equal to a feeling so I wanted that

[00:15:12] feeling I wanted to know it was true and I worked from 11 age 11 to age 20 to try to get that

[00:15:20] feeling because you got to obey all the Commandments you have to be doing all the good things you have to so I did so my youth was very restricted

[00:15:28] I mean you know compared to other teenagers neither neither of us were

[00:15:34] party animals he told the straight and narrow line because we believed it and we were

[00:15:41] waiting I just want I really have always wanted to know what is true so yeah

[00:15:47] um didn’t ever get it and then I didn’t realize it right away but that

[00:15:54] was the Lord’s way of telling me you gotta you know look elsewhere I’m going

[00:16:00] to show you other things and anyway so that was a big thing how old were you

[00:16:05] when that happened to you when you began to recognize you know what I need to look into other things and so forth well

[00:16:12] I always had these questions that the interest didn’t answer for instance I have a

[00:16:19] is mentally ill sister I mean she’s specially abled she she’s not going to

[00:16:24] be able to work her way up to the highest Kingdom and that always one like

[00:16:30] you know how she can be ever able to do all these good works to to be in heaven

[00:16:36] and so that all that time I was a teenager I these questions would plague

[00:16:42] me things like that that didn’t add up I wondered about my dad’s polygamy I wondered

[00:16:47] did that come from God like that doesn’t seem like all the secrets you saw the conflict between the different churches

[00:16:54] the different Church groups yeah because my dad you know he his

[00:16:59] family was always pulling him back to the polygamy group and my Mom hated that and they had their little group

[00:17:07] you know that they included him but not her and stuff like that and she even

[00:17:12] added what a couple occurrences in your teenage life where they were trying to lure her as a young woman into the

[00:17:19] polygamous World another was trying to marry us off at a young age

[00:17:24] I didn’t realize it but my mother did she you know she was having this boy

[00:17:29] right to me and go to skating parties and stuff and and she said

[00:17:34] who is this who’s writing to you and it was it was a boy from the polygamy group like oh

[00:17:40] and then yeah so there were things like that that happened and and then I went

[00:17:46] to the bishop one time and I said I don’t really have a testimony they call it a testimony when and what it is is a

[00:17:53] feeling like you can read something burning in the bosomes you can fall in love with the

[00:18:00] Book of Mormon you can fall in love with the the social environment at the Mormon church I mean yeah they love you into it

[00:18:07] and that feels good and so you say oh yeah that must be the Holy Spirit it took a long time for me for us to

[00:18:15] realize no Spirit isn’t necessarily a feeling you know

[00:18:21] it’s not you may not feel the whole time that you have the Holy Spirit that he’s dwelling in you you may not really be

[00:18:28] aware of it all the time it’s not a feeling it’s more of a thinking process it’s it’s it’s the whole way of looking

[00:18:36] at everything and it’s it’s and yes you can have the you know the spirit kind of reveal

[00:18:43] things like tell it speak to your heart and the Bible tells us that the holy spirit is the counselor right that that

[00:18:50] Christ would send a counselor to us and and he says he will and Jesus said the

[00:18:56] counselor will remind you of everything that I have taught you and so really it’s this connection with the word of

[00:19:03] God and uh God’s spirit and we can they they combine and we can go oh we know

[00:19:09] that this is the will of God because we know what’s in his word we’re getting a sense of conviction that this is is what

[00:19:15] we need to do or or what is true and and so um it’s not a feeling it’s it’s based

[00:19:21] on the hard factual evidence of the word of God so we we still struggle with that

[00:19:26] a little bit like sometimes well is this my own desire or wish that I feel is the

[00:19:34] holy spirit telling me but like you say it’s you it it must match with what the

[00:19:42] Bible tells us exactly yeah but and there’s other ways that you get

[00:19:47] confirmed that it’s the will of God you know there might be fellow Believers it might be people that God puts in your

[00:19:53] life Godly counsel right yeah yeah hearing God speak to you in your spirit

[00:20:00] uh confirmed in the word and in with Christian friends and circumstances if

[00:20:06] all School of things all line up doesn’t that mean that that’s what you’re supposed to

[00:20:11] do exactly right yeah I always tell people I you know I I this is one of the

[00:20:16] biggest questions that people have is what is the will of God and you know my scenario or the situation and so it’s a

[00:20:22] discussion that comes up really frequently and the Bible tells us in Romans be transformed by the renewing of

[00:20:27] your mind right then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is is good pleasing and perfect will but our

[00:20:32] mind has to be renewed by the word of God so that then when we come into

[00:20:38] situations um using wisdom in the Holy Spirit and God’s word we can draw good conclusions

[00:20:43] about what the next steps are but we’ve gotta we’ve got to know the word of God otherwise right your word is a lamp unto

[00:20:49] my feet and a light into my path it’s his word that is the light unto our path and so we have to be in the word if

[00:20:55] we’re not in the word then we’re not going to know what to do in many different scenarios and we’re going to be absolutely you know living by trial

[00:21:01] and error and kind of stumbling around in the dark so yeah and and um so that’s really

[00:21:07] interesting everything that you’re saying there that’s really amazing so Kathleen when did you finally come to

[00:21:14] Christ when did you decide that you know Christianity and biblical Christianity was true and that Mormonism was there a

[00:21:21] defining moment that that happened or was it a process well it both you know

[00:21:26] you might say because I I did want to know what was true and as especially as

[00:21:32] I found out more that Mormonism was not true there were so many things that didn’t add up and I had a bad I mean

[00:21:40] our experience being married in the temple was the opposite of what we were told it

[00:21:46] would be if especially if you base your whole view on on a feeling well I felt

[00:21:54] the opposite of you know peace Serenity maybe maybe we should just bring a few years forward to get to that point so we

[00:22:01] I mean being in the temple really caused me to not think that it was true like

[00:22:08] okay you know very a lot of turmoil but then we Brian went to business school we

[00:22:18] and he has a whole story about his own search but but he came home one day and said you

[00:22:25] know I don’t believe it I don’t I they asked me to be Elder scrolling president I don’t believe it and I can’t commit to

[00:22:32] something I don’t believe anymore and so then I had to make a choice and I I said I don’t want to have a

[00:22:39] divided marriage like my mother did and I’m and I don’t believe in any way or

[00:22:44] either I mean I was I didn’t know as much about it as much as I was going to later but I knew I had never had this

[00:22:51] burning of the bosom so I said okay let’s I’ll go with you he said oh you

[00:22:56] can kill Steve still keep going to church but and then we embarked I did on

[00:23:03] a long search for what was true and I tried out different things and it took

[00:23:09] me actually 20 years it was 20 years between the time we left the Mormon church and we came to Christianity 20

[00:23:16] years but I think the Lord had a purpose

[00:23:21] well one of my first questions when I left the Mormon church I said well well who’s Jesus then what is it what is this

[00:23:28] all about Jesus Christ and what I searched was the in the

[00:23:33] University I took classes I took two classes called the the historical Jesus

[00:23:40] wow where were you at where did you take that at I was at Loyola University in

[00:23:47] Chicago which was a Catholic University yeah and they and then I took another

[00:23:53] class at University of Toronto which you would think I mean they have a Heritage

[00:23:59] too we moved all over North America in my corporate career and oh okay and she

[00:24:05] had the opportunity let’s say to uh attend some different universities but they both told me in both of those

[00:24:11] classes especially the University of Toronto well the uh

[00:24:18] the Chicago Loyola they said oh well Jesus was an extraordinary man but he

[00:24:25] that that was their thesis he was an extraordinary man nothing really Supernatural wow

[00:24:31] that that’s what you heard at Loyola yeah they said don’t pay attention to what you heard in theology class I’m

[00:24:37] telling you that the historical dude and then University of Toronto they said

[00:24:43] well we hardly know anything about him we only know five facts

[00:24:48] I said oh and and I was supposed to the reading material was really obscure like

[00:24:54] it it was so confusing and it that does not have a Bible yeah because the New

[00:25:00] Testament wasn’t even in your reading no it was they they can they wanted you to not read the New Testament they steered

[00:25:06] you away and so there must have been a purpose because I kind of closed the book on that I said oh well I guess

[00:25:13] that’s wow that is that is stunning yeah but that’s what happens in a lot of

[00:25:19] universities you know they that you you can’t really learn about Jesus even in a lot of seminaries today

[00:25:25] um yeah sadly when I was growing up in Calgary Chapel they they said don’t don’t go to Seminary that’s the cemetery

[00:25:31] and uh you know they were like you just come out of debt and uh having a dead

[00:25:37] faith and um there’s a lot of Truth to that you have to be really careful because um our relationship with God is not an

[00:25:43] academic exercise and it’s it is important to be intelligent to be educated but uh it is a relationship

[00:25:50] with God and um when we study the word of God we’re not to treat it as if you know we’re we’re somehow criticizing the

[00:25:58] word you know what we’re doing is we’re building with a God who loves us and who cares

[00:26:03] and sent his son to die for us so um but I I before we go too much farther on I wanted to uh I kind of when you

[00:26:11] said that the experience you had in the temple regarding your marriage was the opposite of what you expected could you

[00:26:18] expand on that a little because that uh we don’t hear a lot of people talking about their experience in the temple

[00:26:23] being married and what what happens and what went on there because as far as I understand it that’s something that’s very secretive as in the in the Mormon

[00:26:30] church that’s very um kind of hush-hush it’s not something you share with people outside the uh LDS church can you tell

[00:26:36] us what happened uh Brian or later you know in my 50s in my 50s I started

[00:26:43] writing this book and now I and then I found out how much Mormonism is based on

[00:26:49] masonry that I and I didn’t know that at the time when you know I was always built up to

[00:26:56] believe growing up that all the temple is the ultimate thing it’s Celestial marriage

[00:27:02] that’s how you get to heaven that you want to be worthy of going to the temple you have to do all these things

[00:27:08] to be worthy of it you have a Chase life and not smoke and drink and pay your tithing and be honest and uh you know so

[00:27:17] it was built up but they never told you what to expect in there and and so

[00:27:24] once you take on the covenants they call them in the temple then you are

[00:27:31] committed you you take on these come and and you have to wear these special

[00:27:36] undergarments the rest of your life and and you know we hadn’t known each other

[00:27:42] very long I mean that was another part of it just they don’t tell you well get to know the person and and you know test

[00:27:50] it out I mean not you know not physically but get to know them to see a life partner to see how

[00:27:57] they react and no they say once again it’s based on a Feeling do you know that that’s the right

[00:28:05] partner for you do you feel that it you know and so it and I didn’t have my

[00:28:10] father he had died at age 41. so and my mother was

[00:28:16] very devastated she was a new Widow at the time we were getting married so I

[00:28:22] had very little guidance and and and not only that but you’re married for time

[00:28:28] and all eternity yeah so there’s no going back it’s not so bad it’s not till death to

[00:28:36] us part it’s no it’s forever no if you blew it when you’re 20 years old that’s

[00:28:43] it and I had seen my mom her husband blew it and and that’s a

[00:28:49] whole nother story but she didn’t have any Hope anyway you don’t have to go so I was very

[00:28:55] once you get into town I was very apprehensive you know with all the things surrounding the marriage yes like

[00:29:01] but then once you get in there then you’re not prepared for the rituals that

[00:29:07] they do and I mean I we’re not supposed to talk

[00:29:12] about it but it’s all you know you can find out if you want to anybody can is that is that

[00:29:18] in your book do you write about that yeah yeah but it’s it’s it’s you you know you do these

[00:29:25] blood Oaths and they don’t they’ve taken some of that out but suffer your life to be taken and you there’s a Temple

[00:29:31] ceremony it’s on masonry yeah I don’t I don’t wanna probably get too much more into it but

[00:29:37] the temple ceremony keeps changing you may be aware of that Kevin it keeps getting more

[00:29:44] vanilla I guess for lack of a better word and also I will mention it I will I

[00:29:52] will mention even that aside though there’s there’s some I’m going to mention one other thing that has really

[00:29:58] changed radically it’s definitely not in the temple ceremony anymore but it was when we were there

[00:30:04] and that is they do they do some little plays with some actors that you see in a

[00:30:09] certain room and you have one play where the two actors the two the two characters

[00:30:15] are Satan or Lucifer and the other character is a uh Pastor an orthodox

[00:30:23] they call him an orthodox Pastor I don’t think they call them Christian pastors I

[00:30:29] recall they say Orthodox pastor and the character that is the character that is

[00:30:34] Lucifer puts his hand on the shoulder of the Protestant pastor and says no you go out

[00:30:41] and you Spread spread basically spread all this nonsense and lies to the world

[00:30:46] so when we were growing up and for all the history of the church up till that time and Beyond

[00:30:53] all other churches were seen as coming from Satan you know Protestant Catholic

[00:31:00] Protestant Greek Orthodox all coming from Saints if you’re a temple Mormon

[00:31:05] and that’s what that’s what God and Jesus Christ were reported to have said

[00:31:10] to Joseph Smith and his first Vision that all the other churches are an

[00:31:16] Abomination to me that’s what God Said so now they don’t talk like that anymore

[00:31:21] because they want to be kind of they want to be seen more as part of the

[00:31:27] Christian Community but a more advanced you know they’re the one they’re truer than everybody else but they don’t cast

[00:31:34] aspersions on all the other churches like they used to yeah I noticed that I’ve noticed that in my discussions with

[00:31:40] a lot of the people that attend it I I’ve had some really interesting discussions I I actually was invited

[00:31:45] over to a Mormon high priest house and uh my wife and I actually went to dinner at at his house and I was asking asking

[00:31:53] him very um I asked him hey do I have permission to ask you some tough questions and so I

[00:31:59] was asking them a lot of tough questions and during the discussion he said something that surprised me

[00:32:05] um because I said I said what is the biggest difference between uh the Mormon

[00:32:10] church and you know a Protestant church and I said do you believe that Jesus Christ is the only way to Salvation and

[00:32:17] he said oh yeah we believe that and I said but you believe that you still have to do things to get to the highest level

[00:32:22] of Heaven though right and he said yes he said we do 98 uh he said Jesus does

[00:32:29] 98 of work we do two percent and then his wife cut him off and she said no

[00:32:34] Jesus does all of it we don’t do any of it and this confused me because I was

[00:32:40] like wait a second this is not what I’ve heard before this is different than what I’ve heard um and it seems to me that I keep

[00:32:46] hearing different things because I now have been told that I can get you know

[00:32:51] to a very high level of Heaven too I’ve had Mormons tell me yeah you can too you don’t have to become Mormon which really

[00:32:58] surprised me no no that would be totally against the core Doctrine if anybody

[00:33:04] told you that you could get to the Celestial Kingdom without being a temple more a faithful Temple Mormon yeah that

[00:33:12] would be but maybe there but I was I was raised and I think you were raised with

[00:33:17] this there’s three main levels of of uh the afterlife except for the sons of

[00:33:24] Perdition which are the really really bad ones but yeah except for that there’s Celestial which is only Mormons

[00:33:30] can go to good Mormons and then there’s terrestrial and t-listual is the lowest

[00:33:36] yes and Joseph Smith said at least once that even the tea

[00:33:42] Celestial Kingdom is way better than this earth now I I don’t know if that

[00:33:48] was maybe him just talking because he did he’d do a lot of talking like that it’s not an Mormon scripture like that

[00:33:55] but um maybe the person you’re talking about was saying yeah you could still get

[00:34:01] Kevin could get to the at least the t-list maybe he could I don’t know Kevin

[00:34:07] seems like a reasonably good guy maybe he could even get to the Middle Kingdom yeah

[00:34:12] but it that illustrates that they individual Mormons don’t necessarily

[00:34:19] believe what’s coming from the Brethren or don’t know or the Brethren change what they say so yes it’s very because

[00:34:28] they believe in continuing Revelation and they believe in personal revelation but what you might get personally

[00:34:35] revealed to you is completely off the wall I mean it might be completely opposite from what the church says so

[00:34:44] it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s always been changing so much and yeah but you

[00:34:49] cannot assume exactly what any Mormon particularly believes yes because it

[00:34:55] differs from person to person um so um for those of you just tuning in my my guests today are Brian and

[00:35:01] Kathleen malinakis and um they are they have their own radio program here on

[00:35:07] kprz uh 12 10 a.m on biblical citizenship if you ever want to tune into that at Saturday at noon and then

[00:35:14] um I’m interested uh you know as an apologist I’m very always interested in here you always learn so much but um

[00:35:20] Kathleen you wrote a book secret combinations evidence of early Mormon counterfeiting um can you tell us um what caused you to

[00:35:28] decide to write that book and you can get it on Amazon for those of you listening um what caused you to decide to write

[00:35:33] that book and then um how is that book because people have written quite a few books on Mormonism

[00:35:39] specifically um how is that book different from maybe other books that have been written what is your photo focus in that book that

[00:35:45] you’re you’re discussing okay yeah well as I said before I went on a quest

[00:35:51] to find out what was due and I I closed the book on Jesus because they the

[00:35:57] secularist told me a completely wrong story so then I went to other

[00:36:03] religions I I you know I I started I read a lot of books because we moved around a lot and I

[00:36:10] so I I one by one kind of knocked them down like this doesn’t stand up and I I

[00:36:16] still I did study philosophy at Stanford University I was I had this amazing

[00:36:21] opportunity that we happened to live there and they opened this new program and and I was I wanted to know the

[00:36:27] meaning of life like I I had a lot of ups and downs and emotional you know

[00:36:33] yeah difficulties I mean it’s hard to live without faith and knowing what’s

[00:36:39] true like all the decisions we had to make and so we kind of put our our

[00:36:44] sights on success you know the American dream but in the meantime that wasn’t satisfying and I I wanted to know okay

[00:36:51] if that’s not true then what is true and and I what I learned in philosophy was

[00:36:57] how to think clearly and how to think logically and how to have one uh thing

[00:37:03] if if some dude conflicting ideas are contradictory then that’s not one of

[00:37:09] them has to be false they cannot be I don’t I don’t think so I don’t think they’re teaching that anymore at Stanford because

[00:37:16] probably not yeah Stanford’s gone way off the reservation but you started doing research you just have to study

[00:37:23] Socrates and know how to so so when after I you know I crossed off

[00:37:29] new age I crossed off Darwinism I crossed curl stuff um freudianism and and Marxism like

[00:37:37] those were the three other big ideas of the University like these don’t stand up

[00:37:42] and they even said that but then I I did come to Faith finally after

[00:37:49] 20 years when I read C.S Lewis my sister-in-law gave me a copy of it my

[00:37:56] Mormon sister-in-law she happened to get and then she and then one of Brian’s

[00:38:01] employees one of somebody that he that worked for him invited us to a Christmas program oh wow and that was when I heard

[00:38:09] the gospel for the first time I’d already read it in the book I like that kind of cleared my cobwebs away and then

[00:38:16] I heard it from the pulpit and I heard the music and the singing and the worship and the praise and I just melted

[00:38:23] I did I it was what I was looking for all this time I recognized that’s what’s

[00:38:28] true I already knew what was false and and and then I I wanted forgiveness I you

[00:38:36] know I I just I knew what a sinner I was and and and how

[00:38:41] how I this is what I’ve been looking for all the time and I just cried so that’s

[00:38:47] how I came to Faith and then after that and this was all a long process I mean it was a few years after that that I

[00:38:54] started reading the book so now researching the book now I know

[00:38:59] where the Mormons at least some somewhat where they veered off like okay I

[00:39:06] started studying the Bible and the Christian Doctrine and the faith in you know

[00:39:12] so that’s who Jesus is oh the Mormons told me wrong and the sick

[00:39:18] and I started finding more and more and I love to study and I love to read anyway and

[00:39:24] when I you know I I by this time when I started reading the Bible again

[00:39:29] maybe I’ll take a second look at these I’d read hundreds of books already and there was no book there is no and I

[00:39:37] testified it out there’s no other book quite like the Bible no that’s for sure it is a supernatural

[00:39:43] unique book that is just there’s such a wealth of of of wisdom in there that and it is how

[00:39:52] God speaks to us so that was my path and then I wanted to know okay

[00:39:58] well if that is true and I I still had my hesitations like is this gonna fall too yeah yeah uh because uh so many

[00:40:06] things that that slowly slowly it it took another so I’m 69 now

[00:40:12] I came to Faith in my like 40 40s then 40 2000

[00:40:19] year 2000 around um but then I wanted to know what really

[00:40:25] happened with the Mormon church I said okay well if this if this is true the the Bible

[00:40:32] then what really happened because I especially wanted to know how polygamy

[00:40:37] came around like that yeah it was in my background so I said that wasn’t

[00:40:42] that was not from God but what how did they come up with that because I wanted to know my family

[00:40:48] history like how did what’s the real story yeah so I looked into polygamy and

[00:40:54] I started finding all these references to counterfeiting that were kind of side notes or footnotes or and you know the

[00:41:01] Mormon readers were the keys each other of it like why are they doing counterfeiting horse feeding and

[00:41:07] counterfeiting as in as in uh monetary yes monetary counterfeit fitting money

[00:41:15] and it turned out like that the title of this book is early Mormon counterfeiting

[00:41:20] from 1800 to 1847. church was founded in

[00:41:25] 1830. they were counterfears before they ever started the Mormon Church yeah even the father of Joseph Smith I mean long

[00:41:33] before there was any more crime family already wow I had heard I had heard that his

[00:41:40] father was into treasure hunting and then I know that he was doing glass looking and that he was actually

[00:41:46] prosecuted for glass looking I believe in a New York case but I hadn’t heard too much beyond that but you’re saying

[00:41:53] there’s a lot more to it than that well I you know I saw all this about counterfeiting and the Mormon leaders

[00:42:00] accusing each other and then I said so I what I did was I I really

[00:42:06] researched into counterfeiting culture you know the sub like the mafia kind of subculture in

[00:42:13] early America and actually counterfeiting was like drug dealing is today it’s highly illegal and it’s

[00:42:20] really bad if you do get caught yeah it was pretty common back then of the

[00:42:26] counterfeiting but you could be harmed and you had to keep it secret and you had to have people covered for you and

[00:42:32] you there were murders to cover up that what they were doing because it was a

[00:42:38] serious penalty but the the stone looking and the uh

[00:42:45] you know the treasure hunting that was really much tied in with camping that was like the front group you know that

[00:42:52] was the front that people that back then would use they would they would

[00:42:59] you know they would find people’s stolen goods in their magic Stone when they had

[00:43:05] themselves but there were all these tricks that they did to cover up what they were really doing and that was

[00:43:11] counterfeiting and there’s the woodscreen it’s all in here I mean that’s fantastic yeah wow yeah yeah

[00:43:17] that’s that’s very interesting that’s not an angle I’ve actually heard before no it’s a it’s a unique I’m going to

[00:43:22] mention a couple of things a couple things about our book first of all she spent eight years researching it she

[00:43:29] went and of course I had my corporate career but I did go with her on some trips most trips she went to Vermont she

[00:43:36] went to New York she went to Michigan she went to uh Iowa she went basically

[00:43:41] everywhere pretty much with the exception of Ohio I don’t think he went to Ohio everywhere yeah you did go to

[00:43:47] Ohio okay just about everywhere just away everywhere where there was uh where

[00:43:53] the Mormons had ever ever been and it’s all started with Joseph Smith who was born in Vermont and she’d go on these

[00:44:00] archives we did go on a trip back in 2012 to Vermont where I did some

[00:44:06] recreational things I’d drop her off in the morning at some at some obscure archives in some small town in Vermont

[00:44:13] and then I’d go kayaking or something and then I’d come and pick her up but it

[00:44:18] has over treasure travel yeah Vermont it had over 14 there’s over 1400 footnotes

[00:44:24] two other quick things the last time I checked this book is in

[00:44:30] the Brigham Young University Library which is really amazing yeah and the other thing is

[00:44:36] the other thing is some years ago a few years ago we were at a Mormon history conference which

[00:44:43] included both active Mormons and non-active Mormons or people that are

[00:44:49] definitely not Mormons like us I happen to be seated at a table with the

[00:44:54] official historian of the LDS church full-time historian based in Salt Lake

[00:44:59] City Utah and um he said that he had read no it wasn’t

[00:45:06] well back like it was the historian he said he had read Kathleen’s entire book

[00:45:13] and I said I said what did you think of it he didn’t know quite what to say I

[00:45:19] mean I was Kathleen’s husband but he didn’t say it was false he said he said

[00:45:24] well I think she chose to focus on those things that were somewhat negative for

[00:45:30] the church that’s all that’s basically what he would say but anyway he didn’t say he didn’t say all that’s a bunch of

[00:45:36] made up stuff or something like that because you really can’t because you documents everything

[00:45:42] that’s incredible that shows you and there’s other stories we could tell too the leaders of the Mormon Church they

[00:45:49] know their real history and they but they did you know their whole faith is

[00:45:57] built on the supposed history yeah yeah but they know all the the discrepancies and the so this is something I want to

[00:46:06] say uh or I mean interjecting a lot but I want to say though that by the same token

[00:46:11] and you know this and everybody that knows Mormon’s noses there are so many good Mormons and I include two brothers

[00:46:19] and a sister of mine and their families and many other people we love them and

[00:46:24] they live see the thing is especially the Mormons of I would say the 20th and 21st centuries the ones that are active

[00:46:32] by and large they really try hard to live what we know is Christian ethics or

[00:46:38] biblical ethics and that’s the wonderful that’s why you got to pray for your

[00:46:44] Mormon neighbors and Mormon relatives if you have them because they really want to live the truth they really do and

[00:46:51] some of them quite frankly I mean I’ve said this to some of my Christian brothers and sisters and they never

[00:46:56] disagree with me I I say that you know some Mormons almost do a better job of

[00:47:02] living biblical ethics than a lot of Christians I know that’s just the way it is and uh so I want them to be saved I

[00:47:10] want them to know the truth because they’re good people yeah no I I mean all the Mormons that I’ve met um I have

[00:47:17] people that tell me historically there were some pretty bad things going on and yeah and pretty pretty evil things going

[00:47:23] on but like you said in the modern day I mean one of the guys I met I was doing

[00:47:28] evangelism down at the beach guy walked up to me I ended up finding out he was from the LDS church and he was here in

[00:47:34] Southern California to fight human trafficking and another another guy uh

[00:47:39] was over helping people in a crisis uh you know over in in the Middle East you

[00:47:46] know he he left his his company to go help over in the Middle East and then another guy was donating huge amounts of

[00:47:53] money to Children’s Hospital and so it’s just on and on the amount of good things that they’re doing and

[00:48:00] um my my students when we talk about Mormonism in the LDS church

[00:48:05] um they’ll frequently ask me Mr Conover because we go into the history of the of the Mormon church and we we share all

[00:48:11] these wild things like how he looked into a hat and looked at rocks in order to translate this supposed uh Golden

[00:48:18] Plates and everything and they go they go how can anybody believe this uh they

[00:48:23] they said they said do you think that they really believe it or do you think they just do it but they know it’s not

[00:48:30] true and I said you know some people they don’t they don’t know the background of the church and it’s not

[00:48:36] something they’re well aware of and other people they just try to kind of ignore it and just go you know I’m just trying to do

[00:48:43] the right thing and I and uh you know people have made mistakes in the past in the Mormon church and I’ve even heard um

[00:48:50] one guy told me that they say that that Joseph Smith was a prophet but he made

[00:48:56] mistakes because he was still a person and therefore we can’t fault him because

[00:49:02] he made mistakes even though he was we so we they say we don’t get rid of all his good stuff just because he made

[00:49:07] mistakes and um is that what you hear Too in is that stuff we hear we hear

[00:49:14] some of that but um no he there’s many Mormons that have

[00:49:20] been good men and women he was not one of them unfortunately well that’s that

[00:49:25] was what some of the egg Mormons would would or question some of the ex-mormon

[00:49:30] conferences that we would go to is was he a fallen Prophet was he ever a

[00:49:36] prophet and and I have the evidence my thesis is that he was never an honest man he

[00:49:43] started he was a con man from the beginning wow so that but that’s very

[00:49:49] different from believing oh well he made some mistakes and he was again but he was trying to do good right but it

[00:49:58] most Mormons do not know the history of their church and they they don’t really

[00:50:03] have an A need unless they’re you know Spirits working

[00:50:09] on them to to look into it they’re they’re trying to do a good life and you

[00:50:15] know live all the laws and and like you say do good works and and and it’s it’s

[00:50:21] a good lifestyle I mean it’s family oriented it’s it’s uh you know you have

[00:50:26] activities and you have all the church dinners and it’s very so that’s why I

[00:50:33] and so so yeah we’re like we’re Christians are more sent out you know

[00:50:39] when we have the para Church Ministries it’s not all just keep keep in your

[00:50:45] Mormon Circle yeah yeah they’re more like that so I want to say you know I I made

[00:50:52] reference earlier in the broadcast I don’t know how much time we have left Kevin but I made a reference earlier in

[00:50:57] the broadcast of the spiritual experience I had when I was a Mormon missionary but I didn’t leave the church

[00:51:03] then and I stayed in the church for several I mean a lot of things happened after that I went back to BYU I

[00:51:10] graduated from BYU we got married in the temple then we went back to University of Michigan we were still very active in

[00:51:16] the church when we went back to Michigan that’s where I got hit with I was my

[00:51:23] closest friends were Mormons fellow graduate students um several of them went on to become

[00:51:28] professors at Brigham Young University and the Mormon Institute was right

[00:51:33] across the street from the business school Michigan University of Michigan business school so between classes I’d

[00:51:40] go over there a lot and hang out with those guys and they’d be talking about these things in Mormon history that

[00:51:46] especially growing up in Michigan I had no like like you know first of all first of

[00:51:53] all I didn’t know that Joseph Smith was a polygamist but that was nothing I didn’t know that he married 11 different

[00:52:00] women that were married at the same time to good Mormon husbands and sometimes he’d send them off on a mission and then

[00:52:06] make a play for their wife and tell them that it was revealed that they

[00:52:11] needed to marry him yeah and other things like that and so after a year or

[00:52:17] so of this um one afternoon I was with a couple of these guys and I said you know I don’t

[00:52:24] know how you guys can still even stand in the church yeah you believe this stuff how can you even

[00:52:30] and their answer was basically you know we go back to the very beginning of the church like Kathleen

[00:52:36] did it’s our whole life we have good family members uh we like our life and

[00:52:42] we are not leaving well to someone that grew up in Michigan and didn’t even know that many Mormons and didn’t have any

[00:52:49] Mormons in his family and had made a big sacrifice to go on a mission my dad cut me off financially when I went to

[00:52:56] Brigham Young University wow that just was not satisfying no at that point and

[00:53:03] then and then as Kathleen said at that same time that I said that literally

[00:53:08] that weekend I went home and I said I I said to her I just looked at her and I said I don’t believe any of this

[00:53:15] anymore and and it just caught up with me you know years of culmination and and that

[00:53:22] same weekend they called me to be the Elder scorn president and it was just all coming together and it was just like

[00:53:28] I you know I I I I when they called me to be elderscore in prison I said I have to pray about this but I knew I knew I

[00:53:35] could but that’s what you have to understand about yeah it’s very hard to leave oh well I

[00:53:43] I’ve talked to several people who have left who have said uh my whole life was

[00:53:48] wrapped up in this I even there was a gentleman I talked to who um he lost everything when he left the

[00:53:55] church his business sunk he lost his family his wife divorced him so it’s a it’s a difficult place to be in but

[00:54:01] we’re just about out of time um Ryan and Kathleen I want to thank you so much for being on the program today

[00:54:07] and uh it’s it’s been a big blessing and I’m really grateful for what you guys are doing thanks so much God bless you

[00:54:14] yeah absolutely love what you’re doing Kevin you might have to be on our show yeah hey yeah

[00:54:20] sounds good let me know but um for those of you who are who maybe just caught the tail end of our show my guess were Brian

[00:54:27] and Kathleen malinakis um you can listen to them every Saturday on biblical citizenship and uh that’s uh

[00:54:34] K praise 12 10 a.m they’re also broadcast on the K praise website as well and um let’s roll biblical citizen

[00:54:42] let’s roll so um that’s just you know putting putting feet to your faith um not just sitting home watching the

[00:54:49] show but actually getting involved and making a difference and I do recommend you pick up uh Kathleen’s book secret

[00:54:54] combinations evidence of early Mormon counterfeiting you can get that on Amazon um it you can also check out all my

[00:55:00] shows online I did just interview a few weeks ago Jason Lyle astrophysicist on

[00:55:06] the James Webb Telescope and uh incredible findings that came out supporting creation and we will be also

[00:55:12] having a guest on helmet welkey who’s going to talk about this claim that there is a similarity between chimpanzee

[00:55:18] and human DNA and you know people claim that that shows that we’ve evolved from chimpanzees because we have this similar

[00:55:26] DNA and we’re gonna we’re gonna really break that down and show you that that’s not actually the case so I hope you can

[00:55:32] join us next time and I really appreciate you being here and listening to us and I hope you have a fantastic

[00:55:37] day God bless you and uh we’ll we’ll uh be with you next time take care when you

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[00:57:16] president of Team Home Loans a branch of synergy One Lending I just want to take this opportunity to thank Kevin Conover

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