NeoDarwinism Must Mutate to Survive with Dr. Olen Brown

[00:00:00] thanks for being here this evening my name is kevin conover and you’re on educate for life radio we’re broadcasting down here in southern

[00:00:06] california we’re on k praise 12 10 a.m as well as fm 106.1 in north county and

[00:00:11] then of course we’re broadcast all over the uh world through social media youtube and and other platforms and uh

[00:00:19] tonight my guests are dr olin brown who’s been on the show a couple times uh a big blessing to have him as well as uh

[00:00:26] dr david hollander maybe joining us this evening the two of them are the co-authors of

[00:00:33] neo-darwinism must mutate to survive and a little bit of background on dr brown

[00:00:40] if you if you haven’t heard him on the show before he is a professor emeritus he’s a board-certified toxicologist he’s

[00:00:45] got a phd in microbiology and uh he has all kinds of awards and appointments

[00:00:52] that he’s been involved with throughout his uh very long career as a microbiologist and then also

[00:01:00] dr hollander dr david hollander he has a phd from mit

[00:01:07] his major was mechanical engineering he’s a senior member of the institute of electrical and electronics engineering

[00:01:13] he’s also a member of the american society of mechanical engineers and he has numerous awards also in his very long career and it’s an interesting uh

[00:01:21] team up here dr brown you and dr uh dr hollander um

[00:01:28] ended up writing this you have uh two very different fields of science although i’m sure there’s a lot of

[00:01:33] overlap there but uh what caused you to decide to write this um this article together that is in um the

[00:01:41] progress in biophysics and molecular biology journal

[00:01:46] dr brown well and i wanted to do something

[00:01:56] important in this paper that has to do with probabilities and

[00:02:02] i felt that he would add a great deal to that and so that was a reason for us to get

[00:02:09] together we we’ve been long-term friends that’s fantastic now um you cut out a little bit there in the beginning so you

[00:02:15] were you were talking about you you felt that his experience his uh experience with mathematics and engineering would

[00:02:22] be helpful in in looking at the probabilities of

[00:02:27] neo-darwinism biologically actually taking place is that correct

[00:02:33] that’s correct okay okay um well that’s a i think that’s a

[00:02:38] pretty cool i’m looking at that and uh you know this article is uh very in-depth and um anybody can get this

[00:02:46] article if they want to get it again uh this is published in a peer-reviewed journal which is progress in biophysics

[00:02:53] and molecular biology the title of the article is neo-darwinism must mutate to survive um what what is uh the point of

[00:03:00] that title there what does that mean neo-darwinism must mutate to survive dr brown

[00:03:05] well the idea of mutations and selection is a part of the

[00:03:12] idea that we are here by evolutionary processes it it traces most of his origins back to

[00:03:20] the book that darwin published i believe it was in 59 1859 yeah

[00:03:27] uh a great part of of his book has to do with the idea that uh we are

[00:03:35] here by chance chance and he didn’t understand didn’t know about a lot of the science that’s

[00:03:41] been discovered since then but one thing that has been consistently

[00:03:46] true is that people who believe in evolution

[00:03:52] are interested in a mechanism for evolution

[00:03:58] that involves the idea of uh survival of the fittest and we’ll come back to that in a

[00:04:05] moment actually um darwin in his subtitle

[00:04:11] referred to as a subtitle the preservation of

[00:04:18] favored races in the struggle for life now he meant races there in a little different sense

[00:04:25] than than we might talk about it in popular culture but it is a sort of a shocking statement

[00:04:33] a friend of his herbert spencer actually was the first to use this term

[00:04:40] survival of the foot finished the two are mean somewhat the same thing

[00:04:45] but survival of the fittest was preferred by even in the beginnings of evolution

[00:04:53] one of the reasons was that the idea that favored races might be preferred

[00:05:00] had some in intonation that they didn’t like even then

[00:05:07] you may answer me like a racist a racist uh intonation uh they weren’t thinking of racism they

[00:05:13] were thinking that it um appealed to god that was interesting that something had

[00:05:18] to prefer and the idea of a natural selection

[00:05:24] nature selected and so that would mean that nature had a purpose

[00:05:29] and they didn’t like that even in the early days so spencer wanted him to change

[00:05:36] over and talk about survival of the fittest uh rather than to say

[00:05:42] preservation of favored races in a struggle for life it’s a it’s a difference that has

[00:05:49] significance at least to the evolutionists yeah and i um i noticed that in your

[00:05:54] article that you were emphasizing that um i i read that where uh herbert spencer this is on page 27 of

[00:06:02] your article or uh page 27 of the journal i believe but um

[00:06:07] it says here uh he he’s the first one to use the phrase survival of the fittest and he

[00:06:12] even wrote to darwin i guess suggesting he not use um the word natural selection

[00:06:19] because it was personifying nature in a sense and making it uh

[00:06:24] confusing people because obviously it’s either god obviously nature is an inanimate

[00:06:31] object it can’t it can’t select anything and so it sounded uh

[00:06:37] unscientific to him is what you’re saying yes and and even in in a paper of 15 pages like our

[00:06:45] paper which is a review and perspective uh you can’t deal with all aspects of

[00:06:51] evolution it’s such a broad a deal yeah we wanted to focus on this

[00:06:57] aspect on survival of the fittest actually it’s what we call a

[00:07:04] it’s a meaningless term really uh what survives the fittest what is finished

[00:07:09] it’s what survives it’s circular killer yeah yeah so it’s not a very useful term

[00:07:18] interesting um i had a question you wrote in here um something really interesting um

[00:07:24] this is on page 25 it says the example of the long-running experiment where um e coli acquired the ability to

[00:07:31] use citrate as an energy source was it interpreted in 2012 as a speciation event but subsequently it was concluded

[00:07:38] that an amplification of certain uh loci loci and dna rearrangements were

[00:07:43] responsible and it was an artifact of the experimental conditions and not a unique evolutionary change i i wanted to

[00:07:48] ask you about this because in my own uh studies of this as far as i understand it this is the largest effort ever made

[00:07:55] it to um demonstrate evolutionary progress um through

[00:08:00] trying to get bacteria essentially to evolve and what i understood and correct me if i’m wrong was that the the major

[00:08:07] change that they achieved with the bacteria was getting it to eat essentially metabolize a new kind of

[00:08:14] food um and that’s correct can you can you explain what you’re saying here that this ended up not being a

[00:08:22] first of all why would they expect it to be a speciation event in the first place because it’s still bacteria

[00:08:27] but beyond that what was it that proved that this was not a speciation event

[00:08:33] it’s an evol story to see if i can make it simpler and clear and clarify

[00:08:38] um the ability to use a particular organic substance

[00:08:44] for its nutrients depends on the presence of certain enzymes

[00:08:50] and indeed to use citrate you have to have a number of enzymes not just one

[00:08:56] and in fact it relates closely to part of the research which we will we talked

[00:09:02] about in our paper the probability that you could develop something called a krebs cycle krebs

[00:09:10] was the first to understand a whole series of reactions that don’t mean

[00:09:15] anything unless it’s a completed circle completed series and that series of

[00:09:21] changes uh produces atp which is the energy source for all cells it charges our

[00:09:28] batteries if you will allows this to grow allows us to think it allows us to run

[00:09:33] so the krebs cycle is foundation is foundational to all life uh essentially existing

[00:09:39] uh to most advanced life the idea here in this paper putting it as briefly as

[00:09:46] possible is that they had organisms that could not use a

[00:09:51] particular substance called citrate they were looking for a change in the

[00:09:57] organism so that it now could grow using citrate it could use a different food source

[00:10:03] and they studied it for years and kept culturing it and kept couple culturing it and they finally isolated some

[00:10:10] changed organisms that had this new ability and they said oh that’s a major significant advance

[00:10:18] requires a number of things this proves in the laboratory for the first time we are actually seeing

[00:10:26] something evolving it wasn’t changed to a new kind of bacteria in a sense it didn’t look different it wasn’t changing

[00:10:33] into a swan or something but it acquired a major new metabolic

[00:10:38] ability but they were wrong and they were wrong for reasons that are complicated but

[00:10:44] proven to be wrong and the organ i’m sorry and the the um you know the scientists who were

[00:10:51] working on this they today uh have confessed that they were wrong also is that is that agreed upon uh

[00:10:58] i don’t know what their current position is it’s been very quiet uh i don’t think it’s

[00:11:05] been contested that they that that it’s not uh it’s not a speciation change okay um

[00:11:12] you see could we give another example for bacterial change that is

[00:11:20] true and valid but but not a species change

[00:11:25] we all know about antibiotics sometimes when we’re ill the doctor prescribes something and generally today they’re

[00:11:32] cautious they say if you really don’t have to have the antibiotic we won’t give it to you because we are

[00:11:40] concerned that it will cause mutations or changes it really doesn’t

[00:11:45] cause mutations it selects for those that can survive that the person will become uh resistant to or the i’m sorry

[00:11:52] the uh whatever they’re trying to to to um you know stop with the

[00:12:00] uh with the um antibiotics will become resistant to it and they won’t it won’t work anymore essentially

[00:12:07] correct and that is true that’s something you can validate but it is a small change it’s a it’s a micro

[00:12:14] evolution the difference here is important we might talk about what’s micro micro that means a small change

[00:12:22] uh we might talk about compared to macro two-two yeah and the easiest change is

[00:12:28] macro you have to make a big change yeah the big the the distinction on a real layman’s level is uh different kinds of

[00:12:35] dogs microevolution um you know cat to dog macroevolution uh that’s you know real

[00:12:44] real basic terms um and as as a christian and as somebody who believes in the bible and in creation i’m okay

[00:12:51] with microevolution because there’s evidence for it we can observe it but i’m not okay with macroevolution because

[00:12:57] uh first of all the bible doesn’t teach it and second of all science doesn’t support it there’s no actual uh

[00:13:03] strong scientific support to validate that is that correct that’s correct and could i add something

[00:13:08] there on the the difference between micro micro which is small change and

[00:13:14] macro which is a large change absolutely actually a number of years ago there was

[00:13:19] a an evolutionist he was in bible believing he wasn’t christian as far as

[00:13:24] i know but he had concerns about can we show anything that really

[00:13:30] represents a species change the bible doesn’t talk about species species is a word invented by linnaeus

[00:13:38] scientists too classified it’s legitimate yeah but the idea of kind is is is much bigger

[00:13:46] change than sometimes what we call species but

[00:13:51] the person i’m talking about was his name was ghoul g-o-u-l-d and

[00:13:57] he had this idea that small changes could happen but what we

[00:14:03] see in the fossil record is large changes changes that are major and he actually

[00:14:11] used this descriptor which he was criticized greatly for he said let’s

[00:14:16] suppose a diastar laid an egg it hatched and a bird flew

[00:14:24] away because evolution teaches that birds all birds came from originally dinosaurs

[00:14:32] and but they couldn’t find the intermediaries uh archaeopteryx is a

[00:14:38] bird-like creature it’s fully bird it’s been used as a missing link but

[00:14:44] it’s really fully burned that’s all we see we we don’t see missing or we don’t see the intermediary

[00:14:52] steps and so it’s significant here

[00:14:58] that speciation changes are major changes like in body parts how

[00:15:04] do we explain that you go from water breathing to

[00:15:09] lung breathing that’s a big big change how do you do that in one step yeah and

[00:15:14] if you do it in multiple steps then you don’t have the power

[00:15:20] to save those up you you can make microscopic changes

[00:15:26] but the only ones that have survival value would be when they’re completed

[00:15:31] half a wing no good at all in fact you are at a disadvantage so

[00:15:37] that doesn’t make sense and all i’m saying as a scientist is i

[00:15:42] want things to be logical i i want the right for myself and my students to challenge

[00:15:51] things that they don’t understand or don’t think are correct and today we’re moving into that area it’s sort of like

[00:15:59] the political correctness that is descended on our culture uh it includes science unfortunately

[00:16:06] today in one respect that that were not free i had difficulty getting this paper uh

[00:16:14] not difficulty with this editor and with this journal but if i had sent it to science i don’t

[00:16:20] know if it would have been accepted i have other papers even though you’re quoting in here you’re quoting numerous

[00:16:26] evolutionary scientists who really are questioning their own paradigm and saying hey

[00:16:31] there’s major holes in here we need we need the freedom to be able to look at alternative ideas and explore

[00:16:37] other avenues without being you know given the scarlet letter um because we

[00:16:42] happen to question it right correct i think that

[00:16:48] traditionally many of the famous well-known advances in science

[00:16:55] back going from the 1700s to 1800s and through part of the 1900s

[00:17:00] the well-known scientists if i would name them your people wouldn’t would remember them or recall having read about them in

[00:17:07] science they were many of them were bible-believing either christians

[00:17:13] or some of them weren’t fundamental as christians in the sense

[00:17:19] that we have understanding today in some sects sure but uh newton newton was a

[00:17:24] christian he wrote more words about religion than he did about science yeah and he’s one of the greatest scientists

[00:17:31] in the world and we didn’t know about some of his writings in religion until a few years ago and

[00:17:37] and they looked at his records and his his writings and they found all this

[00:17:42] stuff that he had he spent more time on religious subjects than he did on his science and he’s

[00:17:48] noted as the greatest science in the world yeah it’s it’s incredible and and i mean you can look at galileo and uh

[00:17:55] copernicus and uh uh louis pasteur and there’s just numerous scientists that were had no

[00:18:02] problem with reconciling their love for science and their love for god it was not uh they were not mutually exclusive

[00:18:08] in their eyes right and for your audience here if i might take a little aside from what

[00:18:14] we’re saying here but it fits for me sure um when i’m critical of evolution

[00:18:23] i look at it like i do other theories or other ideas in science

[00:18:29] we need to test them we need to be free we need to be open

[00:18:35] and have our work that’s legitimate published so that other people can interact

[00:18:40] the problem i see today about evolution is that there is much in the science

[00:18:45] textbooks that is flatly wrong some of it are they keep publishing

[00:18:52] hoaxes as if they were real they they keep the peppered moths you probably know

[00:18:59] about that yeah uh and i could take a moment with that as one example

[00:19:06] yeah the peppered moth uh is still being published in science books you’re saying yeah with the landing on the trees and

[00:19:11] everything yeah and the point is that these moths do

[00:19:17] it’s it’s relevant and absolutely correct that in england at the time with more

[00:19:23] industrial smoke being produced that the

[00:19:29] the the moss that were darker in color uh fitted in better with some of the

[00:19:35] soot and things that were collecting on trees and other places the place the point is that

[00:19:41] that’s a small change something went back later and found that there were white moths it’s a change in color it’s

[00:19:47] not a speciation difference all of the genetic information is there in the mall

[00:19:53] and and it can produce one or the other and this has been a huge problem for a very long time in discussing

[00:20:00] um the facts you know is that the the semantics are confusing it’s uh

[00:20:06] it’s equivocation it’s it’s taking a word and make it me meaning so having so many meanings that

[00:20:12] it’s hard to have an intelligent conversation because everybody says well what do you mean by that and everybody means something else i wanted to read

[00:20:18] this from your from the publication here i thought this was really interesting um and i wanted to get your your comments

[00:20:25] on it um dennis nobel and the article physiology uh is rocking the foundations of

[00:20:31] evolutionary biology you put this this is a quote as 2012 came to a close

[00:20:38] an article appeared in the proceedings of the national academy of sciences of the united states of america with a title that would have been inconceivable

[00:20:45] in such a prestigious journal only five to ten years ago rocking the foundations of molecular genetics my title echoes

[00:20:52] that of matic but it also goes further it is not only the standard 20th century views of molecular genetics that are in

[00:20:58] question evolutionary theory itself is already in a state of flux i will show

[00:21:03] that all the central assumptions of the modern synthesis often called neo-darwinism have been

[00:21:10] disproved that that quote right there is stunning to me i i almost can’t believe

[00:21:15] i’m reading it i mean is this guy is this guy a creationist or what’s going on

[00:21:20] um i’ve never spoken with him about his religious uh leanings yeah um

[00:21:27] it’s it’s based primarily in my view on the fact that there is so much that

[00:21:34] has been assumed uh with respect to evolution and it is it is true that

[00:21:41] that you can’t really do it environment you experiments you can’t do an experiment

[00:21:46] for a million years so but that doesn’t give you a license to

[00:21:52] say that we can make it up and we can and we can say could i say

[00:21:57] something that i think is important in this context i’m sure you have a wide audience

[00:22:05] with differing views perhaps different denominations different backgrounds

[00:22:11] why is a christian at all interested in this aspect of science one might ask

[00:22:16] that for scientists who are christians it’s important

[00:22:22] i believe it was first peter 3 verse 15

[00:22:28] says that as christians we i’m adding i’m paraphrasing sure as christians we should always be ready

[00:22:34] to give a reason for the faith that’s within us and

[00:22:40] and it goes on to say we should do that with meekness and i believe it’s just with fear

[00:22:46] the meekness is important uh you know if you’re trying to lead someone to christ

[00:22:52] these people such a person comes with a different background uh whatever

[00:22:57] it might not be important it’s certainly not the first thing that you would say to the person that you’re trying to lead

[00:23:03] yeah you know don’t believe in evolution yeah but there are

[00:23:09] and it’s also true that i have a lot of friends some of them are not scientists that

[00:23:14] say well i have no problem with evolution yeah uh billy graham said

[00:23:20] he didn’t have a problem with evolution the pope from 1950 the pope since then

[00:23:26] have embraced evolution with some caveat they they want to reserve the fact that in

[00:23:32] humans the soul had to be added by god um i’m not trying to be criticized

[00:23:38] critical of anyone’s revolution praise god if you believe in christ and you’ve accepted

[00:23:44] i don’t want to disturb you but it is disturbing to me that

[00:23:50] about the time people get into high school about the time they graduate go to college

[00:23:56] they’re uh their attendance if you look at polls and polls show various things

[00:24:02] but i think it’s true i’ve observed it myself that a lot of people go away from

[00:24:10] maybe they don’t just discard their beliefs but they’re certainly not active and

[00:24:16] it’s only when they get children of their own that some begin to come back and and i’m saying

[00:24:22] hey if you’re an intelligent person and everybody i hope is intelligent let’s take a look at what we can think

[00:24:29] about evolution how does it affect our worldview the worldview of the evolutionist the

[00:24:36] atheist is the one that’s furthest out on the poll of differences

[00:24:43] but your world view has to be that

[00:24:48] everything happens by chance all the stars in the starry sky above

[00:24:53] every plant animal that you see all the humans we’re here by chance we’re

[00:24:58] purposeless we’re the whole universe is full of sound and fury

[00:25:04] but it means nothing if you’re an atheist yeah if you’re an atheist yeah now there’s a there’s a

[00:25:10] middle ground there are people and i’m not saying you can’t believe in evolution to be a good christian all this but i’m saying

[00:25:16] if you’re going to explain it think about it because there’s going to come a time when it may make a

[00:25:22] difference in your ability to witness yeah and well

[00:25:27] i mean we got to be kidding ourselves if we don’t think that evolutionary theory has an impact you know i had a student

[00:25:32] who said to me mr conover he said he said i’m so grateful for your class it really

[00:25:38] uh helped me because he said i was actually starting to leave christianity because

[00:25:43] i couldn’t reconcile what i was taught in my public school evolution with what i was reading in the

[00:25:49] bible in genesis and he said and one was called science and one was called faith

[00:25:54] and i figured well the science is the one that has the facts and so i don’t want to believe something that’s not true

[00:26:00] and you know i i i think it’s you know there may be people that can

[00:26:05] feel like okay i found a way to make evolution fit with my bible and i can still be a christian

[00:26:10] but there are many people who don’t feel that way and paul says it very specifically he says

[00:26:16] watch your life and doctrine closely because if you do you will save both yourself and your hearers and he specifically says doctrine so um some

[00:26:23] people think it doesn’t matter nothing matters except that i believe in jesus christ well the bible doesn’t teach that the bible teaches that the word of god

[00:26:30] matters and uh all scripture is useful for you know teaching reproof all these

[00:26:37] things and so it’s not um you know it’s true that evolution you know whether you believe it or not is

[00:26:42] not a salvation issue but it’s still incredibly important and impactful

[00:26:48] on for some people whether they decide that christianity is true or not i mean i run

[00:26:54] into it all the time um along those same lines i wanted to ask you something else about the the article that you published

[00:27:00] um i’ve never heard this before and i don’t know a lot about it and so i’m curious to learn a little bit more from

[00:27:06] you about it several in several instances in your paper you reference that many people have claimed that

[00:27:13] cancer is an example of evolution in action um can you expound on that a little bit um what is

[00:27:19] going on there why why are they using cancer as um an example of actually macroevolution i think or maybe

[00:27:26] it’s microevolution i’m not sure what what are your thoughts on that well as i said um

[00:27:34] when darwin promoted evolution the idea from which all of our current thinking even though

[00:27:40] it’s been modified it comes all comes from that and

[00:27:46] he didn’t understand what was the source in those times they didn’t even know

[00:27:51] about the gene they didn’t know about dna they didn’t know how things were how things were inherited

[00:27:58] uh they even thought at one time that that changes that are called

[00:28:06] biological change changes in our body can be inherited there was lamarck who said if you cut

[00:28:13] off the tails of mice each generation for long enough the tails will be born

[00:28:19] with shorter tail and the mice will be born with shorter tails

[00:28:24] there’s evidence that that darwin actually incorporated that thinking

[00:28:31] be careful about how big critical we are of people because they didn’t know no one knew how it’s done yeah so what i’m

[00:28:38] getting to hear in cancer is that we know about mutations today

[00:28:45] mutations occur by changes in the gene mostly by mutational changes

[00:28:52] those changes cause cells to go wild as the phraseology is they when you

[00:28:59] immortal they grow they continue to grow dr brown when you say mutations just for

[00:29:04] for uh the sake of our audience uh we we you know there’s three billion letters in the human uh

[00:29:10] genome in in each cell there’s three billion letters so you’re talking about one of those letters being incorrectly

[00:29:16] uh the wrong letter being put in there in that three billion instruction code is that what you’re talking about

[00:29:21] correct okay so that’s consequences can i kind of saying the change in the genome if it occurs in

[00:29:28] your sex cells if it occurs in a cell in your skin it can cause a local cancer

[00:29:35] well i’m getting off the start the important thing about the genetic change is it has to be in the gene cells

[00:29:42] to be passed on most of those changes are

[00:29:48] either lethal or they don’t change anything for the good

[00:29:53] and the important thing in my paper here is that you can’t save those up there survival of the fittest is the only

[00:30:00] mechanism that they talk about and if it takes 10 changes before you make

[00:30:08] something that is called is collectively a change that means meaningful

[00:30:14] there’s no way to conserve each of those 10 steps uh

[00:30:20] yeah i hear what you’re saying i that you use the metaphor and you’re i i underlined this um analogy you you put

[00:30:26] in here can i read this analogy you did well yeah absolutely yeah this is great it says here by analogy

[00:30:33] consider that you exist on a deserted island you must create the empire state building or perhaps a space shuttle each

[00:30:40] is arguably simpler than the simplest living cell what would you require first you may request anything but there is

[00:30:45] one requirement progress must be shown after each request you cannot do stuff out of sequence and save it for later

[00:30:52] evolution is random there is no purpose to construct the empire state building would you

[00:30:58] ask first for an architectural blueprint would you ask first for carpenters electricians interior decorators hvac

[00:31:04] specialists steel workers special materials engineers power equipment a government permit the sequence is

[00:31:09] essential because survival of the fittest does not allow you to save any anything against a future convenience

[00:31:14] for example you might receive all the necessary i-beams with no blueprint how would you assemble them however the

[00:31:20] blueprint also is useless if it is all you have initially survival of the fittest by analogy at the end of each

[00:31:26] day would not let you keep something even if it has great but only future value after day one there is a pile of

[00:31:32] perfectly good steel however it is not on the way to becoming the bones of a skyscraper you are not allowed to save

[00:31:39] anything that would be a help in the future there is no purpose no self-organizing principle survival of

[00:31:45] the fittest is insufficient for macroevolution i thought that was a fantastic analogy well thank you

[00:31:52] i created a little poem that goes along with that perhaps that

[00:31:57] is outside of what you want to say but it fits here at this point

[00:32:03] uh i used a parody with with shakespeare to to try to point that out so you’re an

[00:32:09] artist you’re an artist and a scientist not but

[00:32:15] um i i think you mentioned analogy that’s that’s really relevant to me because as

[00:32:22] an educator and as a writer in science one of my you know i don’t have a purpose unless i can say things in a way

[00:32:29] that that people remember or that they associate with yeah and one of the ways to do that is to to

[00:32:35] teach people or to excuse me to to talk to people in ways that they can relate

[00:32:41] to can i give you a short example yeah my old my youngest granddaughter

[00:32:48] uh just started amazing me when she was very small i something would come up in

[00:32:54] a new word and she would say oh and i would see her line going and she

[00:32:59] would get a smile and she’s saying you mean it’s like this and she would give the perfect

[00:33:06] comparison the new word and she would explain what it meant out of what she already knew

[00:33:11] and you know when you can do that or when you can teach someone or help someone so that they say oh i understand

[00:33:17] then it’s useful if we give people information that they’re not looking

[00:33:23] that they don’t know where it fits uh have you ever lost not been able to remember someone’s name you’re too young

[00:33:29] to do that oh no no sometimes it happens to me all the time a little kid thing you can use go

[00:33:36] through the alphabet start a b c and suddenly one of the letters of the alphabet will

[00:33:41] start flashing and i’m going to remember that so what i’m saying here is that

[00:33:49] your audience some they’re everywhere i’m assuming some of them uh maybe think

[00:33:55] i doesn’t matter to me uh i’m saying here think about your worldview is it consistent with your worldview

[00:34:03] does it make a difference maybe not to you but there is going to be that person whether it’s your own child a relative a

[00:34:09] friend an associate that you’re trying to help and as i said it’s not the first thing

[00:34:15] we bring up but you need to be prepared so i’m i’m suggesting you know

[00:34:21] think about the fact that it means whether we’re here by god’s purpose

[00:34:28] or whether we’re part of a purposeless meaningless how do you find meaning in your life

[00:34:34] beyond your daily existence uh without god and if we’re here

[00:34:41] you know if we go back you say where did you come from and evolution it says what goes bad they

[00:34:46] don’t want us to say ape but they do want to say that we had a common ancestor

[00:34:53] the a came something a different and one of those apes became human

[00:34:58] and if you go back from that where you go you go back to other life forms and eventually you get back to

[00:35:05] bacteria if you start from the other direction

[00:35:10] you have first life as being formed how does it get here

[00:35:16] they say that the earth formed as a fiery ball it cooled down

[00:35:23] the earth it rained on the earth for millions of years the the oceans turned into soup and the

[00:35:30] soup came alive yeah and so in a sense if you believe evolution totally you believe you came

[00:35:36] from a rock yeah yeah that doesn’t give you a lot of purpose there

[00:35:43] that doesn’t give you a lot of uh inspiration right um no and and i think that’s a real that’s

[00:35:49] a real issue for many people i think for many people um it does affect the way you think it affects your view of other

[00:35:56] people it affects your view of life and uh they’re you know ultimately we

[00:36:01] want we want people to have the hope of eternal life um you know there are many people that are

[00:36:07] very very afraid of dying and the reason is is because they don’t know where they’re going and they don’t have

[00:36:13] confidence in you know an afterlife and so um

[00:36:18] we need the hope of jesus christ so that we’re not clawing here trying to

[00:36:25] hold on to something that’s going to fade no matter no matter how much you want it not to the reality is is

[00:36:31] there no one escapes death you know unless christ returns or unless you make christ your savior so

[00:36:37] i think i didn’t answer your question about cancer can i say just a word on that please

[00:36:43] the important thing here is that we believe that it is a genetic change it’s something some kind of mutation

[00:36:51] that results in the cancerous growth

[00:36:56] so in that sense an understanding of cancer and an understanding of evolution

[00:37:03] becomes important with respect to a medical issue what is true

[00:37:08] about evolution now impacts something very real so we need to encourage the

[00:37:14] understanding do we have the right understanding about changes that are legitimate that do occur

[00:37:19] because it may help us to to treat cancer for them

[00:37:25] so so dr brown are they saying that because cancer right the cell

[00:37:30] has a mistake a mutation in the genetic code they’re saying this is upwards

[00:37:36] evolution because that cell now is starting to take over other cells and dominate the human body they’re saying

[00:37:42] this is upwards evolution is that what they’re trying to say as an example exactly not exactly uh

[00:37:49] they don’t have to be consistent and no one would be able to maintain that

[00:37:56] cancer represents any improvement exactly that’s what i was thinking yeah

[00:38:01] the the connection is as i said uh we need to understand cancer

[00:38:08] if we accept it as a mutational event

[00:38:13] and mutational events are what motivate or what what

[00:38:19] allows evolutionary change if we’re wrong about that relationship we apply

[00:38:25] that wrong information to our understanding of the mutation of the type that can lead to cancer

[00:38:32] if we’re wrong about that then we’re going to not

[00:38:38] solve it so if we can look if things are wrong with our understanding of evolution up

[00:38:43] here and if we can correct that then we can apply the correct knowledge to this

[00:38:48] other these other changes you see it’s my contention as a teacher in

[00:38:54] biochemistry microbiology involving genetics and involving

[00:39:00] genes and and biochemical processes that there is nothing that i can think

[00:39:06] of that i would do differently i would teach differently if i accepted

[00:39:13] evolution is true there’s nothing in what is talked about as evolution

[00:39:19] that is most of it’s more not more than descriptive but where it is it doesn’t

[00:39:24] inform me it’s not necessary i could i could erase it from my lecture

[00:39:30] and my student wouldn’t suffer i see what you’re saying yeah there’s nothing there’s nothing there of

[00:39:36] substance that actually has any real world impact on on

[00:39:41] science per se but although philosophically it certainly has real world impact um but from a scientific

[00:39:48] perspective you know it’s neither here nor there we know that that modern

[00:39:54] genetics uh changed when in 1953 when

[00:40:01] watson and crick uh discovered the double helix which was a beautiful understanding

[00:40:08] of how information can be present in a molecule that can be replicated

[00:40:14] faithfully that can also serve as the information for making all the proteins

[00:40:20] and specific proteins that are functional in our body so that’s a

[00:40:25] that’s a great great advance and it’s it’s unfortunate that

[00:40:32] that the evolutionists still use that idea and accept it as true but they

[00:40:39] don’t go the next step where you know the genes have information where does

[00:40:44] the information come from yeah that’s the question you can’t

[00:40:49] randomly change something and create information if you have a computer program you probably know that more about computers than than certainly that

[00:40:57] i do oh maybe if you take a computer program and you start messing with it and change it here

[00:41:03] and there are you going to create a better a newer program no you’re going to well mess it up

[00:41:09] yeah correct the correct thought for mutations is air that’s

[00:41:15] generally what’s going to be happening yeah this is a quote from your um from from your

[00:41:22] article here it says here um perry marshall published in 2021 in the

[00:41:28] progress in biophysics and molecular biology it says here there are no examples in the literature

[00:41:34] to show that the laws of physics and chemistry can produce codes or that codes produce cognition cognition

[00:41:40] remains a mystery and so literally there is no scientific evidence that you could generate an

[00:41:47] informational code like uh dna uh with without some sort of outside

[00:41:53] intervention um the the the natural laws of science just don’t produce that

[00:41:58] and that’s one of the things in this paper beyond challenges to the

[00:42:04] concept that survival of the fittest is a useful construct

[00:42:10] we go forward to say that one of the uh

[00:42:16] one of the things i’m trying to say in this paper is we need

[00:42:21] to make some changes we’ve been stuck and and

[00:42:26] you you poured it reported there on a paper that says there’s been a sea change

[00:42:32] that is true in some sense but we’re still stalled

[00:42:38] we’re still we’re still not realizing our full potential as scientists to think creatively and to

[00:42:46] question and to throw out what is not valid and what is not meaningful

[00:42:51] and i’m making a call here in this paper to say to the young scientists particularly we want to give you the

[00:42:59] opportunity if you have a good idea let’s fund it and let’s not let’s not refuse to fund it simply because it it

[00:43:06] might not be in agreement with evolution you know when i used to review science

[00:43:14] requests for nih and other institutes one of the things that concerned me

[00:43:21] was not the really good paper in deciding whether it was number two or number three and the ones that we were reviewing

[00:43:27] but and not the really bad papers there were some proposals that came in that you’d say well you know that’s that they’re

[00:43:33] like no it doesn’t matter but the ones that worried me were the ones that that were somewhere so novel

[00:43:43] that i’d say i could reach i could say that’s where’s this proof where’s this evidence

[00:43:49] those are the ones that i worried about am i throwing away something that is so novel that i’m not able to perceive what

[00:43:55] he’s what he’s saying and when you only confirm 15 or 20 percent of the people that come into you

[00:44:01] that becomes a concern you don’t want to throw away those novel bright good ideas

[00:44:07] yeah that’s that’s a tough thing but but um you know hopefully

[00:44:12] you know i think there’s a lot of voices out there saying hey um especially in the in this scenario with evolution with

[00:44:19] evolutionary theory there’s so many holes like they keep you reference this constantly in here the um

[00:44:27] the modern uh synthesis is flawed um and and there has to be an opportunity to

[00:44:34] look at different ideas because the current ones aren’t fitting it and what’s happening is it’s almost like

[00:44:39] people are deciding we don’t have an alternative view therefore we’re just going to go with something we know isn’t doesn’t work and that’s a horrible place

[00:44:47] to be especially as a scientist you don’t want to be in that position but dr brown we’re almost out of time here i

[00:44:52] wanted to give you a chance i don’t know if you have your book you wrote the book miracles there if you

[00:44:58] have it and you can hold it up for our audience dr brown has been kind enough to um

[00:45:05] he’ll give you a free copy of this if you’ll just give us a right you can send me an email um through educate for life

[00:45:11] i’ll i’ll be happy to pass that on and we’ll get a copy to you um can you tell us a little bit about that book before we before we uh go off the air here

[00:45:18] well yes uh the subtitle is a little bit long the book is miracles it’s titled

[00:45:25] everything that is or was or is to come is a miracle

[00:45:31] and it’s written as a revelations from scripture science and life a scientist

[00:45:36] looks at the evidence um i would be schizophrenic as a christian

[00:45:42] if if i said that i believe science over here and it’s different

[00:45:48] from what i during the week and it’s different from what i believe when i go to church or

[00:45:53] when i talk about my religion there are other important scientists historically have said you know no

[00:46:00] there’s not a truth that’s true for science and a different truth for religion

[00:46:06] and so in the book i’m i found a quote by einstein

[00:46:13] i couldn’t find for certain that he said it i wanted to be sure to find where it was

[00:46:19] written it is attributed to him but nobody’s found where he wrote it to me it was

[00:46:25] very meaningful and i didn’t discover it until i was almost finished with this book where i was talking about miracles

[00:46:32] and he said everything is a miracle or nothing is a miracle there’s only

[00:46:38] those two choices and to me that just rings very importantly true

[00:46:44] i can’t look at the starry sky i can’t look at my grandson i can’t look at

[00:46:49] myself in the mirror i can’t look it out my window at the beautiful sights

[00:46:54] and think that there is no god yeah you know the bible itself you know the heavens above declare his glory

[00:47:02] and that should be enough for us to believe that there is a god and

[00:47:07] that we are his creation and we should read the bible find out what

[00:47:13] it says see what he wants us to do and do it i love it i think that’s a great that’s

[00:47:19] a great place to end our show today so dr brown thank you so much for being on the program i really appreciate it and

[00:47:25] appreciate all you do well thank you and thank you for offering to get my book i’d like anyone who wants to read it to have it

[00:47:32] absolutely i’m gonna um we’ll we’ll put that out there and and hopefully some people will be able to get get a hold of that and put it to good use um thanks

[00:47:39] for being here for those of you who are listening and uh this will be all over the uh social media platforms

[00:47:44] you can check it out there in our archive also on our website educate4life.org all kinds of resources for you on my

[00:47:50] website um to help you become a better equipped to be able to light to be able to be a light and a blessing to the

[00:47:56] people around you we do have some special guests coming up very soon we have a gentleman who is in i believe

[00:48:02] it is south carolina who who is currently traveling from public school to public school with a

[00:48:08] big van and he actually teaches classes on the bible and science and all these

[00:48:13] good things and the schools legally are allowed to give credit for that so i think that’s something you’re going to

[00:48:19] want to tune in for he’s working really hard and it’s something that more people if they knew about i think would take advantage of so um we’ll be back here

[00:48:26] again next week and uh uh look forward to being with you thank you so much for joining us and i hope you have a wonderful evening