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[00:01:02] welcome to educate for life I’m your host Kevin Conover and you’re on educate for life radio my websites educate for

[00:01:09] life dot o-r-g if you want to check it out and our topic today is what if you could feel no pain you may or may not

[00:01:15] know there is a particular genetic disorder which makes it so a person has

[00:01:20] no pain one of the kids that that has this disease Jordan Anthony Dungy he was diagnosed to

[00:01:27] age 2 by doctors at John Hopkins Hospital in Baltimore with a rare incurable genetic condition it’s called

[00:01:34] congenital insensitivity to pain with anhidrosis and he’s the son of a very

[00:01:40] famous football coach Tony Dungy Indianapolis Colts won the Superbowl and

[00:01:46] he’s now a sports commentator very famous but his son was born without any

[00:01:51] pain and you know when I talked to my students about this in class their initial reaction as whoa that would be

[00:01:58] awesome I mean you you could play football and you’re not gonna feel any pain you’re just gonna keep going so

[00:02:03] nothing’s gonna stop you and initially that’s a lot of our reaction as wow that would be amazing to be born without pain

[00:02:10] now Tony Dungy son Jordan he can feel a light pressure on his body when you

[00:02:17] touch him but a slap or a touch is the same and so he can’t tell the difference

[00:02:23] now think about it if you’re if you’re thinking about it what else what would have what would

[00:02:29] happen to a child who was growing up feeling no pain as you begin to think about it you start to realize you know

[00:02:34] what maybe that’s not a good thing like I thought it was a good thing and maybe that’s that’s not such a good thing and

[00:02:41] so this is important because when we’re discussing Christianity we’re discussing our faith what what a lot of times comes

[00:02:48] up is why does God allow suffering and pain in the world and I’ve talked to quite a few atheists and very frequently

[00:02:55] they’ll they’ll tell me God shouldn’t allow evil in the world and I’ll say

[00:03:01] what constitutes evil what is what do you mean by that and they’ll say any kind of suffering but of course the problem with that is

[00:03:08] that not all suffering not all pain is necessarily bad and a lot of good things

[00:03:13] actually can come out of suffering and pain but real quickly if you’re listening think about it what what do you think

[00:03:20] would be the problem with raising a child who could feel no pain my I have

[00:03:26] no guest on the radio program today but my producer my assistant here Robert droves in studio hey Robert right off

[00:03:31] the top of your head anything come to mind that would be a problem raising a kid that I could feel no pain well

[00:03:38] there’s the classic hand on the stove example yeah how do you learn to do that yeah exactly right you know that’s one

[00:03:45] of the things that you’re Tony Dungy brings up is that his son can’t learn a lesson by pain pain teaches you things

[00:03:54] right so he has to tell us on don’t put your hand on the stove he can’t feel extreme heat or extreme cold and so he

[00:04:01] can you can tell him don’t do this but he doesn’t learn it right necessarily by

[00:04:07] experience because he can’t feel the pain and so that’s a huge problem as

[00:04:12] Jordan Dungy was growing up is that he couldn’t tell that something was wrong right he runs around the house runs into

[00:04:19] the table and whereas you know another child might go run to their parents and say ouch that hurt and you can explain

[00:04:26] that’s why we don’t run in the house Jordan wouldn’t get that he would just keep running in the house because he

[00:04:31] felt no pain and another one that comes up that a lot of people don’t think about is he actually they had to watch

[00:04:38] him very closely whenever he would play with other kids because he was too rough because he doesn’t know what a normal

[00:04:43] punch feels like or a normal kick right and so Jordan is going around kicking

[00:04:48] and punching people and wrestling with them in a way that’s very painful for other kids but for Jordan there’s no

[00:04:55] pain involved and so again here we see that pain serves a purpose something we

[00:05:00] take for granted actually serves a purpose another thing that this kid did was he he pulled out all his baby teeth

[00:05:07] because it didn’t hurt him before they were gonna come out he pulled out his baby teeth and when it got to adult

[00:05:13] teeth his father said look it you can’t do this again because you don’t get more

[00:05:18] teeth right so there’s another thing Tony also describes how when they would

[00:05:23] play catch they’d be throwing the ball and his son would dive on the grass but they

[00:05:28] you’d throw the ball and if it was on the concrete the driveway he’d dive on the on the driveway also and so you’d

[00:05:35] have to explain to him look you can’t jump onto concrete it’s not the same as jumping in a pool right you you can’t do

[00:05:40] that right and so here’s something that for most of us we take for granted but God has a purpose to our pain so whether

[00:05:49] it’s a toothache whether it’s you know a pain in your chest that’s indicating that a hard heart attack is potentially

[00:05:57] coming or any any kind of other pain a lot of the pains we experience are there

[00:06:03] because they help us to avoid problems that are coming or deal with problems

[00:06:09] before they get too bad and so not all pain and suffering is a bad thing and

[00:06:14] you know one of the one of the things that I think is also really interesting and how this translate over is emotional

[00:06:20] pain now of course his son can experience emotional pain even though he can’t experience physical pain but and

[00:06:28] they’ve used emotional pain to try to help him to learn because you can’t discipline through spanking you can’t

[00:06:35] discipline you know he doesn’t understand the consequences of of what he’s done they Tony said that one time

[00:06:42] he or maybe multiple times climbed up to the top of a slide while he’s playing tag and just jumped right off the top of

[00:06:48] the slide broke his leg and then kept on running right and so he doesn’t feel that pain of a broken leg so so what

[00:06:57] about emotional pain emotional pain in our lives is think about that for yourself when was the last time you felt

[00:07:03] emotional pain emotional pain oftentimes is an indication that hey maybe there’s

[00:07:09] not something right in my relationship maybe there’s not something right in my friendship or my marriage or whatever

[00:07:16] the case we feel emotional pain and so it really changes your perspective when

[00:07:23] you look at the pain in your life and you ask why is this happening in my life why is God allowing this or why is this

[00:07:28] happening and is there something that I need to be aware of that maybe I’m not

[00:07:34] conducting myself in the proper way in a particular relationship maybe I’m I’m

[00:07:40] not giving do consider to somebody else or or maybe I’m being

[00:07:45] selfish or whatever the case might be those emotional pains often are an

[00:07:50] indicator that either maybe we’re not behaving properly or somebody we’re in a relationship with is

[00:07:56] not behaving properly and that is helpful to us because that warns us that hey maybe I need to back off of that

[00:08:03] relationship and I’ve seen that in my own life and I’ve seen that in other’s lives where there’s a relationship

[00:08:10] that’s potentially harmful and the pain that I’m experiencing indicates maybe I

[00:08:16] need to back off that friendship a little bit because of the fact that it’s not a healthy relationship so what we’re

[00:08:23] talking about today is this sort of thing it is an apologetics topic our whole radio program is geared around apologetics which the word apologetics

[00:08:30] just comes from apologia meaning to defend and what we’re doing is we’re tending the biblical view of reality and

[00:08:37] so when we deal with the issue you know a lot of people will say skeptics will say atheists agnostics will say I don’t

[00:08:44] believe in God because if there was a good God he would not allow the amount of pain and suffering I see in the world

[00:08:49] and so this is what we’re talking about today and I wanted to start off because I think that’s a really interesting story what what

[00:08:57] Jordan Dungey has gone through with that that inability to feel physical pain and

[00:09:03] you know CS Lewis has a very interesting quote he said God whispers to us in our

[00:09:09] pleasures speaks in our conscience but shouts in our pains it is his megaphone to rouse a deaf

[00:09:16] world and I think there’s a lot of truth to that I think more often than not when we have pain in our life it causes us to

[00:09:24] sit up and pay attention and go wait a second what’s happening here why is this

[00:09:29] happening what is God trying to communicate to me if a person’s not a

[00:09:34] believer that pain will often steer them back to the big questions in life why am I here where am i going what is my

[00:09:41] purpose and cause us to reevaluate what we think I always use the example we you

[00:09:49] know when after 9/11 happened they said the churches in New York were full they were packed full of people because

[00:09:54] people are going why is this paying half so when everything’s going great we tend to just cruise along and oftentimes we

[00:10:01] pay no attention to you know eternity or the the big questions we just go on with

[00:10:06] our lives enjoying our lives but oftentimes it’s the pain that causes us to sit back and reflect and go am I

[00:10:13] really living my life in a way that is god-honoring and that is also has an

[00:10:20] eternity in mind I’m looking at a bigger picture and so I really like that quote by CS Lewis in Genesis chapter 50 verse

[00:10:28] 20 if you’re familiar with this story you intended to harm me but God intended

[00:10:33] it for good to accomplish what is now being done the saving of many lives and and if you’ve read Genesis at all or

[00:10:40] you’ve been in Sunday school at all you know that that quote is from Joseph and Joseph had one of the hardest lives that

[00:10:47] there was in the Bible he he was sold into slavery by his brothers it never

[00:10:52] got to see his mother and father again for a very long time actually never got to see his mother again she died before

[00:10:57] he was reconnected with his family and then when he was in Egypt when he was

[00:11:03] sold into Egypt he was working really hard for Potiphar trying to be do do his

[00:11:08] best under that adverse circumstance he was framed for trying to take advantage of a

[00:11:15] Potiphar’s wife she was actually trying to seduce him he had done right Potiphar ends up putting him in prison and he’s

[00:11:22] back in prison again and finally he ends up as second-in-command of all Egypt and

[00:11:27] this is at the end of his life Genesis 50:20 where he says you brothers you

[00:11:33] intended to harm me but God intended it for good and so we see again that out of his suffering comes good and so

[00:11:41] suffering is not always bad Hebrews chapter 12 verse 11 it’s one of my favorite verses it says no discipline

[00:11:47] seems Pleasant at the time but painful later on however it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who

[00:11:54] have been trained by it and so again that scripture is emphasizing that and any athlete knows this – or anybody

[00:12:01] that’s gone through difficult times to achieve some great goal knows that it takes a lot of perseverance and often

[00:12:07] that involves pain in order to get to that gold-medal to become that athlete so when we get back we’re gonna

[00:12:15] continue this discussion we’re we’re up on a break here stay with us we’ll be right back we’re gonna talk about why

[00:12:20] did God allow pain in the world in the first place couldn t have created a world where there was no pain at all why

[00:12:26] is it even necessary we know he does you you know make good out of pain but I’d

[00:12:31] rather do without it right you know I think that’s how a lot of us feel so stay with us we’re gonna be right back

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[00:13:38] hey welcome to educate for life thanks for listening today I’m your host Kevin Conover glad you’re here we’re screaming all over the place on facebook and

[00:13:45] youtube and periscope and everywhere we can think of and we’ve got all kinds of

[00:13:50] amazing shows you can check them out on our YouTube channel or on our podcast love to have you like them or comment

[00:13:56] love to hear people’s comments and thoughts and we also have a whole curriculum online that answers all the

[00:14:03] tough questions people have about God in the Bible you know was there really a worldwide flood where’s the evidence what about creation and evolution what

[00:14:09] about all the different religions in the world you know there’s a bazillion questions people have and I’ve been

[00:14:16] teaching this for now twelve years now I’ve been teaching a Christian apologetics to high school students and adults and so that’s what our websites

[00:14:23] all about and I love to have you chime in or join or check us out so today

[00:14:29] we’re talking about suffering and second Corinthians 4:17 says something really

[00:14:34] interesting it says for our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them

[00:14:40] all you know I’ve had you know I’ve been through a you know certain amount of

[00:14:47] pain in my own life everybody’s gone through a certain amount of pain and I have a dog little daughter with cystic

[00:14:52] fibrosis and we were just in the hospital for nine days over Christmas right before Christmas she was getting a

[00:14:59] feeding tube in order to help her gain weight and my wife and I have had these discussions about why did God allow this

[00:15:05] to happen to our daughter and and and you know she says you know I don’t want

[00:15:11] I don’t want to have eternal glory and I don’t want to have rewards in heaven I just don’t want to have this pain now

[00:15:16] and I think that’s how a lot of us feel is you know God thanks but no thanks I

[00:15:21] appreciate that you’re trying to grow my character and help me to become a better person but I’d rather just not have the

[00:15:27] pain and I you know whatever you’re doing in life you know whether you’re trying to start a business whether

[00:15:34] you’re trying to become a better athlete whether you’re trying to become a better spouse or a better parent there’s always

[00:15:41] pain involved it takes a lot of effort and Robert just said off the air no pain

[00:15:46] no gain I think that’s pretty much the main you know we hear that all the time and it’s very cliche but in a lot of

[00:15:52] ways that’s very true that that’s the case why why did

[00:15:57] God put the tree in the garden in the first place Robert what are your

[00:16:02] thoughts on that why did God put the tree in there I mean he could have made Adam and Eve and it says that he what he

[00:16:08] told him don’t eat from the tree in the garden and I used to think you know I have I have an answer now but I used to

[00:16:14] think to myself how about he just never put that tree in there in the first place then they they would never have

[00:16:20] eaten it and we’d all live forever any thoughts yeah I’ve thought about that a lot over the years and I think it really

[00:16:27] comes down to giving them a choice in the matter of whether they want to follow him or not I think that’s

[00:16:33] probably the main reason yeah and then that obviously leads to a lot more things to consider yeah absolutely

[00:16:38] and you know as a Christian I think we are trying to answer these questions because we’re trying to make sense of

[00:16:45] what the Bible teaches and and how the world is laid out and I think that tree

[00:16:50] in the garden is one of the most important aspects of creation and what

[00:16:55] God has essentially given us the Bible says that to love God is to obey God and

[00:17:02] you know I when I have these conversations with my students you know talk is cheap anybody can say they love

[00:17:08] you but in order for you to know that they love you it has to be demonstrated it actually has to be acted out you

[00:17:15] can’t just say I love you I love you right if I if I come home and I tell my wife I love you honey and she says okay

[00:17:21] would you mind you know making the kids dinner and I say I’m gonna watch some TV

[00:17:26] and then a little while later she says hey would you mind helping with the

[00:17:33] laundry or taking the dog out for a walk and I say you know what I’ve got some other stuff I got to do I really gotta

[00:17:39] get ketchup on my nap and I got to get some sleep and then a little while later where we’re sleeping and and she wants

[00:17:45] some water and she’s would you mind getting me some water and I say you know what hon I think you really need to get

[00:17:51] it yourself yeah you know that’s really not gonna go over that well after a while she’s gonna say stop saying you

[00:17:56] love me because everything you do says you don’t love me and it’s really

[00:18:02] interesting that God really is in the same situation that the free was an opportunity for Adam and Eve

[00:18:08] not to just say they love God but actually to love God through the way

[00:18:14] they behaved right so so I think that applies to all of us and and that’s

[00:18:20] significant now why is God so concerned about us showing him right that we love

[00:18:26] him because love is an action you can love somebody without feeling loving

[00:18:32] right so you may be quote in love with somebody and typically when somebody says I’m in love with him right I’ve got

[00:18:38] a lot of students at school they’re they’re dating people for the first time and they’re in love with people but

[00:18:45] there’s a big difference between quote being in love with somebody and being loving towards somebody right so if if

[00:18:52] all our relationships depended upon how we feel day to day the reality is we

[00:18:58] would be in and out of relationships all day long but somebody can treat me poorly and I can still act lovingly

[00:19:05] towards them and you know if if my child says something to me that’s not very

[00:19:13] nice which kids do this sometimes right they speak their mind and they don’t have a lot of life experience so they say they say mean things to you I can

[00:19:21] still talk them in at night I can still give them a hug and I may not feel like

[00:19:27] it my feelings may be different but I can still do that and that’s what love really is it’s it’s true love is not

[00:19:35] based or dependent upon how I feel it’s something I do because I want to be

[00:19:40] loving and you know I’ve heard people say well isn’t that inauthentic too to

[00:19:46] act loving to somebody when you don’t feel loving I want to be authentic I want to I want to really be Who I am but

[00:19:52] no I would disagree with that you can still say I don’t feel loving towards

[00:19:59] you but I am going to love you through the way I act and I think the Bible says

[00:20:05] Christ demonstrated his love for us in that while we were yet sinners he died for us now I don’t think God was happy

[00:20:12] about the fact that that Jesus Christ was going to die on the cross but the

[00:20:18] fact of the matter is he followed on that because he’s loving and he loved us and so that’s a really important

[00:20:24] point so so love seems to be according

[00:20:31] to God the highest ideal and we see this in the scriptures over and over again Faith Hope and love but the greatest of

[00:20:38] these is love Paul says and and so you cannot have love in a world where you do

[00:20:44] not have the freedom to choose now what does this have to do with suffering well ultimately we could ask the question why

[00:20:53] is it that God doesn’t turn every bullet into putty and every knife into jello so

[00:21:01] we look at God in the Bible he does miracles right he’ll heal somebody Jesus

[00:21:08] Christ heals a blind man or raises somebody from the dead or or whatever the case why doesn’t he always do this why

[00:21:15] doesn’t he stop bullets or bullet comes out of the gun it’s flying through the air and halfway there it turns to putty

[00:21:21] and just falls to the ground right or somebody’s got a knife and they’re about to stab somebody and as it hits their

[00:21:28] body it turns to jello and mush and just falls through your hands and this doesn’t happen so why is that any

[00:21:35] thoughts on that Robert that’s a pretty deep question yeah that is definitely a big question but I think I don’t know a

[00:21:44] world like that it would be a world with no consequences for actions and it’s like I don’t know I don’t think that’s a

[00:21:50] world in which humans are designed to be because you could never grow you could never gain character you could never

[00:21:56] learn like what’s important and why if none of your actions or anyone else’s

[00:22:01] actions could have real negative consequences yes we learned so much more from the negative consequences I think

[00:22:06] than the positive we were both negative ones like a real lesson absolutely I

[00:22:12] think that’s totally true I think you know the the the truth of the matter is if that God cleaned up after us our bad

[00:22:19] decisions with miracles every time then essentially we could make make no moral decisions there literally wouldn’t be a

[00:22:26] bad moral decision because you couldn’t there would be no negative consequences to anything and so essentially a world

[00:22:32] like that would be a world in which there was no moral choices and if there’s no moral choices than what does

[00:22:37] that mean it means there’s no opportunity to demonstrate love so remember love is God’s highest ideal the

[00:22:43] Bible actually says God is love and so God desires to be in relationship with

[00:22:48] us and he he is even in relationship within himself the Trinity is this

[00:22:55] emphasis on relationship three personalities and one God so it’s three persons in one God that’s the Trinity so

[00:23:02] he’s in relationship even within himself and then we are in relationship with one another and we are in relationship with

[00:23:08] him but the Bible over and over again says that love must be demonstrated why

[00:23:13] did Abraham have to go sacrifice his son what in the world was that all about

[00:23:20] you’ll hear people talking about that it just seems crazy why would God asked Abraham to sacrifice his son well for

[00:23:27] Abraham his greatest the greatest thing for him in his whole life was his son and God was saying am I greater than

[00:23:36] even your son this was a way that the Abraham could show his love for God now

[00:23:41] the the ending of the story is God stopped him from sacrificing his son but he said now I know that you Revere me

[00:23:49] that you respect me that you love me because you are willing to not even

[00:23:54] withhold from me your only Son okay we’re coming up on a break here but

[00:24:00] we’re gonna continue this discussion and we’re gonna talk about you know there’s free will in heaven but why didn’t God

[00:24:07] just start out with heaven why do we have earth before we have heaven what’s the point of that seems like we could

[00:24:13] have saved a lot of heartache and pain if we just started with heaven instead of having earth then heaven

[00:24:19] okay so stay with us we’re gonna be right back this is a great great topic to to think through and and glad that

[00:24:26] you’re here with us we’ll be right back [Music]

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[00:25:29] hey thanks for being with us here today I’m Kevin Conover your host and you’re on educate for life if you’d like to

[00:25:35] check out our website educate for life dot o-r-g org you can get all kinds sign

[00:25:40] up for all kinds of classes there it’s only $4.99 a month and you have a subscription it’s a two-year curriculum

[00:25:46] if you have kids it’s a great curriculum to go through it’s also great for adults

[00:25:52] to go through through a Bible study or just on your own even it really helps you to have a comprehensive

[00:25:58] understanding of the word of God and enables you to become more and more confident in your ability to share the

[00:26:03] Word of God because what I’ve found is that once we have answers to some of the tough questions that people ask it gives

[00:26:09] us a lot more peace and confidence when we’re talking to people about our faith or wanting to invite people to church

[00:26:15] when we are able and one of the most common questions people ask which is what we’re discussing today is why does

[00:26:21] God allow suffering evil and hell in the world what why does he have hell even

[00:26:27] right and why is there suffering and evil in the world and well it’s one of the common questions that skeptics ask

[00:26:33] or the reason they give for why they don’t believe they say look at if God was all good and he was all-powerful then he wouldn’t allow the kind of

[00:26:39] suffering and evil we say we see in the world in fact some people will say you

[00:26:44] know if God really existed he could have done a better job with the world than the one we are in today and it’s called

[00:26:51] the better world argument and so some people will say God should have made no

[00:26:58] world at all now that’s an interesting one because you know I had a student

[00:27:04] come to me a few years back sadly this kid was suicidal he was actually talking

[00:27:10] about killing himself and I got to talking to him and he said he said my

[00:27:15] life is awful it’s been awful I don’t even know why God made me and I I’d

[00:27:21] rather God never made me it made me in fact he said I don’t think God is real because if he were real he wouldn’t have

[00:27:27] made me and he wouldn’t have made anybody now that’s that’s tough to hear

[00:27:33] from a kid we we talked for a long time and he came out on the other side and changed his mind about his life and also

[00:27:40] about God’s praise the Lord but but we talked for quite a while about that off and on and

[00:27:48] and the reality is is that if you were to say it’d be better if God made no

[00:27:53] world at all this really isn’t a good comparison it’s kind of like saying I

[00:27:59] want to compare an apple to no Apple well you you’re really not comparing it to anything so it’s logically it’s not

[00:28:06] really a good comparison nothing and something have nothing in common to compare so not really a good one now

[00:28:12] some people will say God could have made a world with no free creatures there

[00:28:18] just shouldn’t be any creatures that are free to make decisions now the difficulty with this is simply because

[00:28:28] the difficulty is that one is a moral world and the other is a non moral world now what does that mean so animals

[00:28:36] generally speaking most theologians most people who think about these issues animals are cause and effect machines

[00:28:43] essentially now it definitely looks like maybe some of them have free will but they could they don’t make moral

[00:28:50] decisions right so the issue is is if we had a world where there was no moral

[00:28:57] decisions to be made then that would be a world where there was no love so you you’d have a world that didn’t have love

[00:29:03] now again we’re back to this issue that God seems to place love as the highest

[00:29:08] ideal his very nature is love and relationship is that important to him so you you the the depth of the

[00:29:15] relationships that God is looking for requires that people are able to make

[00:29:20] moral decisions why because the ability to make a moral decision is the premier

[00:29:27] it is the highest evidence of love meaning when I make a decision that is a

[00:29:35] selfless decision right in which I put my place second to somebody else somebody else’s needs it shows them that

[00:29:42] I love them right love requires sacrifice this is why you know I had a

[00:29:48] friend he was a surfer and he was newly married and for his wife’s birthday

[00:29:55] bought her a rundown VW van now if you remember these from a long time ago

[00:30:00] they’re they’re just Junkers and his wife as soon as she saw it he brought her out to show her she started crying

[00:30:07] and who why did she start crying because she knew that the president was not for

[00:30:13] her it was for him he bought it saying it was for her but it was actually for him so how did she know that because

[00:30:20] well love takes sacrifice it’s saying I’m gonna get you something that’s not for me and it’s for you I’m gonna spend

[00:30:26] my money and I’m gonna buy you something right so that being the case there a

[00:30:34] non-free world wouldn’t have any love now some people have said what about making a free world where people can’t

[00:30:40] sin they can’t break any rules well again that’s actually a contradiction or

[00:30:45] what do we mean by that well the word free means can do otherwise means you

[00:30:50] can do something else and a free world that can’t sin is a world in which

[00:30:57] you’re not really technically free yeah Robert so there’s an interesting issue

[00:31:04] that’s kind of shoots off of this which someone then might ask you well then how can we be free in heaven if there’s not

[00:31:10] gonna be evil there yeah does that mean we’re not free there that’s a great and I have some thoughts about that but okay

[00:31:15] I don’t let’s not get too far ahead here because we’re gonna get to that but okay I love that you brought that up because

[00:31:22] and that is probably a question running through maybe some of the people listening to their mind right now is well heaven is going to be a place in

[00:31:29] which worse free right we still have free will but we can’t sin so we will

[00:31:36] answer that question but let’s hold off a little bit because that’s kind of the the exciting you know

[00:31:42] yeah conclusion so okay yeah so let’s look at the next one here’s two of them

[00:31:49] that are really interesting and this really reflects off of the point Robert just made a free world that would not

[00:31:54] sin may not be actually possible it’s possible that God could not actually

[00:32:01] create a world a free world in which people would never sin so somebody might

[00:32:06] might try to make the case that God could have made a world where nobody but but it’s it’s possible that’s not

[00:32:11] possible so and it may be morally and inferior okay now what’s what’s

[00:32:20] interesting here too is you know if you

[00:32:27] have a free world where you would not sin or could not sin you know it’s kind of like me at my home telling my son

[00:32:35] you’re not allowed to have any sweets okay you’re not allowed to have any sugar and then basically we never have

[00:32:41] any sugar or sweets in our house well I couldn’t say wow my son really is showing me how he loves me through

[00:32:47] obeying me because he never eats anything that sugary right but there’s nothing ever in the house right so if

[00:32:55] you had a world that was like that well you still wouldn’t have the opportunity to demonstrate love now again Robert

[00:33:02] said well what about heaven and I think that’s a very good question

[00:33:07] excuse me okay so this this sentence right here that I’m about to share with

[00:33:13] you is kind of the the crux of the issue I think this is one of the best answers I’ve ever heard to the issue of why

[00:33:20] there is suffering in the world this is not the best world possible I think we can all agree with that right from the

[00:33:27] very beginning Adam and Eve sinned Cain kills Abel and and things just start getting bad from there on out in Genesis

[00:33:34] it says that the whole world was filled with violence God was so upset about it the whole flood is based off of the fact

[00:33:40] that the world was filled with violence and so we look around us today and there

[00:33:47] is violence and pain and suffering all over the world and I think it’s absolutely obvious that this is not the

[00:33:52] best world possible but it may be the best way to the best world and I think

[00:34:00] that right there is really powerful this may not be the best world possible but

[00:34:06] it may be the best way to the best world possible what does that mean why does

[00:34:11] God allow suffering and evil in the world permitting evil is necessary to

[00:34:17] producing higher Goods right you don’t have courage without danger you don’t have patients without tribulation

[00:34:22] don’t have character without adversity and you don’t have forgiveness without

[00:34:27] sin interestingly enough Jesus Christ said something pretty profound he said he who loves much he was forgiven much

[00:34:34] loves much he was forgiven little loves little well well the interesting thing

[00:34:40] about that is what that mean is that the person that makes the most mistakes ends up being the person that is also the

[00:34:46] most loving and so our trials and our tribulations Robert did you have that

[00:34:52] verse Romans 5 what was that do you have that handy yeah so it’s

[00:34:58] Romans chapter five verses three through five should I read it yeah go for it yeah so it says not only that but we

[00:35:05] rejoice in our sufferings knowing that suffering produces endurance and endurance produces character and

[00:35:10] character produces hope and hope does not put us to shame because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through

[00:35:17] the Holy Spirit who has been given to us hmm Amen that’s awesome and what’s interesting about that is that is that

[00:35:23] progression right from suffering to endurance endurance to character and

[00:35:29] character to hope you know my daughter was in the hospital over the December of

[00:35:35] getting a feeding tube and what’s interesting about her circumstance is

[00:35:41] that she’s growing very quickly she had to have a IV put in a PICC line put in

[00:35:46] she’s had tons of shots and I’ve had to hold her hand through that process my

[00:35:51] wife and I and it was interesting because at the end when they were gonna pull the PICC line out because she had

[00:35:57] been crying before but slowly what happened was she stopped crying with these things they didn’t they didn’t bother her as much anymore and I saw

[00:36:02] this trials producing an endurance and endurance producing character and at the

[00:36:09] end she actually wanted to watch the doctors she asked if she could pool a PICC line out and if you know what a

[00:36:14] PICC line is it’s a line that goes all the way to your heart and she wanted to pull it out not just watch it she wanted

[00:36:21] to do it herself I was like whoa that’s intense right here’s this little nine year old girl and my wife’s like I have to go I have

[00:36:27] to look the other way and she wants to pull it out right so I don’t know maybe she has the medical field in her future

[00:36:35] but here’s the thing the fact of the matter is is that her character produces hope how because she

[00:36:41] can say I’ve been through this and I have hope to get through more and when somebody else comes to her and goes I

[00:36:47] don’t know if I can get through this she can say I know you can because I’ve been through it before

[00:36:53] and so character produces hope now we’re still going to get to this where we’ve

[00:36:59] got one more segment left stay with us we’re going to talk about this incredible idea that this world is the

[00:37:05] best way to the best world what does that mean exactly and why is it so important for your faith in your trust

[00:37:11] in God stay with us we’re gonna be right back

[00:37:32] hi this is Jason hall president of team home loans a branch of synergy one lending I just want to take this

[00:37:38] opportunity to think Kevin Kahn over for the profound impact he’s had on mine and my wife’s spiritual life as well as

[00:37:44] being an incredible teacher when our kids were his students his knowledge and passion have taught us all how important

[00:37:50] it is to be defenders of our faith it’s our honor and privilege to support Kevin and his show is our sincere hope and

[00:37:56] prayer that you will continue to learn to be defenders of your faith through Kevin’s radio show and through his educate for life teachings thank you

[00:38:03] Kevin from the hall family and team Home Loans

[00:38:18] hey thanks for being with us today I hope you’re enjoying the program we’re talking about suffering and evil in the

[00:38:24] world why does it exist and you know I want to preface this with the fact that

[00:38:29] sometimes when you’re dealing with somebody that’s going through suffering or maybe you yourself are going through suffering it’s not always an

[00:38:36] intellectual issue it’s an emotional issue and so it doesn’t always help to give intellectual answers to emotional

[00:38:42] problems right so I just want to clarify that if you have a friend or you know somebody who’s going through very hard

[00:38:48] times the best thing you can do for them I would encourage you is what the Word of God says it says mourn with those who

[00:38:55] mourn and what you’re doing is you’re just coming alongside that person and you’re being present with them a lot of

[00:39:01] times we think you know I don’t know what to say to somebody who’s going through a lot of pain and we we

[00:39:06] sometimes will even keep our distance because we feel so inadequate when it comes to what somebody’s going through

[00:39:12] let’s say they have a kid that has cancer or they themselves have cancer or some other huge tragedy and we might

[00:39:18] even avoid them because we’re thinking or we’re thinking to ourselves I have no

[00:39:25] idea how to help this person but the reality is is that the best help you can give them is not an answer to the issue

[00:39:31] of suffering it’s your presence meaning just hanging out with them doing the dishes mopping

[00:39:37] the floors reading a book just even you being there with them without saying a

[00:39:44] word is healing and and helpful to a person so don’t allow your inability to

[00:39:51] answer the question of suffering prevent you from being a comfort to somebody God

[00:39:57] has designed us emotionally to heal emotionally right so if somebody has an emotional problem I heal it with

[00:40:03] emotional comfort if somebody has an intellectual problem I approach it intellectually and the world is always

[00:40:10] asking the question why is there suffering and evil in the world and so that’s a big part of what we’re

[00:40:15] answering today is that question so let’s get back to the issue of the best

[00:40:21] way to the best world what does that mean exactly in Matthew chapter 26 Jesus

[00:40:28] says this then he said to them my soul this is Jesus Christ talking my soul is very sorrowful even

[00:40:34] to death remain here and watch with me and going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed saying my father if

[00:40:40] it be possible let this cup pass from me nevertheless not as I will but as you will now what’s interesting about this

[00:40:46] this dialog between Christ and God the Father is Jesus himself is saying is

[00:40:52] there a better way is there a better world that could have been made to get to our final goal and we can infer

[00:40:59] because God allowed Christ to go to the cross we can infer that there is no better way this is the best way to the

[00:41:06] best world even though this world is not the best world so in Matthew chapter 23

[00:41:14] Jesus said o Jerusalem Jerusalem how often I have longed to gather your children together as a hen gathers her

[00:41:19] chicks under her wings but you were not willing and again what this tells us is

[00:41:25] that God is allowing people to make their own decisions about whether they

[00:41:30] decide to follow God or not whether they decide to say thy will be done God or

[00:41:35] whether they say my will be done CS Lewis said this there are only two kinds of people in the end those who say to

[00:41:42] God thy will be done and those to whom God says in the end that I will be done all that are in hell

[00:41:47] choose it without that self choice there could be no help and I think this is really important to understand that God

[00:41:55] judges us based on what we do with what we know Abraham the Bible says his faith was credited to him as righteousness he

[00:42:02] demonstrated his faith his loving love for God his faith in God his love for God through what he did he what he was

[00:42:09] willing to do and God said are you willing to love me more than anything in

[00:42:16] your life including your own son and Abraham demonstrated that he was and

[00:42:22] Robert you brought up a great point yeah earlier off the air can you can you

[00:42:27] explain your explain that point again yeah so concerning Abraham and Isaac and this is actually I think for at least

[00:42:34] hundreds of years if not longer this has been like a favorite point of atheists and skeptics where they’re like clearly

[00:42:40] this is just God being cruel you can’t justify it he’s just being a jerk he’s just asking Abraham to do something

[00:42:46] awful and then he’s like nevermind or just kidding yeah yeah that’s definitely not a fair representation of what’s

[00:42:52] happening but another what’s interesting is God is actually giving Abraham and

[00:42:57] the readers of his word like a preview of what’s going to happen with Jesus later so it’s far from a pointless event

[00:43:04] what he’s really doing is showing Abraham how difficult the thing that he himself is later going to do is and how

[00:43:11] much love it takes to be willing to give up your own son because in the end God didn’t make Abraham give up his own son

[00:43:18] but he did give up his own son and so Abraham probably knows better than anyone how difficult it was for God to

[00:43:25] allow Jesus to die for us and like there’s just like it would take so much love to be able to go through with that

[00:43:32] decision yeah absolutely I think it’s incredible because like you were saying I think that that’s a brilliant point

[00:43:38] that God did not expect Abraham to do that but God Himself said I I am willing

[00:43:45] to do that and God became a man in the person of Jesus Christ and he died in

[00:43:51] our place so we wouldn’t have to die he died he paid the penalty for our own sin

[00:43:58] and it’s very clear God is just he cannot allow sin to go unpunished he can’t just look the other way a good God

[00:44:05] must follow through with justice he’s incredibly fair he’s incredibly just

[00:44:11] it’s his very nature he can’t deny himself and a good judge is always going to carry out the consequences for a

[00:44:18] crime and so the reality is that each one of us deserves to be punished

[00:44:24] deserves that penalty and yet Christ has said I will take that penalty for you and God died as a man through Jesus

[00:44:32] Christ so here’s what we know evil has not yet been destroyed so the the

[00:44:38] typical the typical argument from an atheist or a skeptic would be the

[00:44:44] Epicurus our argument which says if God were all good he would destroy evil if God were all powerful he could destroy

[00:44:49] evil evil has not been destroyed therefore there is no good all-powerful god that’s the reasoning that’s the

[00:44:56] logic but the actual response is this if God were all good he would destroy

[00:45:01] evil if God were all powerful he could destroy evil evil has not yet been

[00:45:07] destroyed and our conclusion is evil will one day be destroyed by an Allgood all-powerful God and the Bible actually

[00:45:16] talks about this what does it say in Matthew chapter 25 when the Son of Man comes in his glory and all the angels

[00:45:21] with him he will sit on his glorious throne all the nations will be gathered before him and he will separate the

[00:45:27] people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats you know tragically not too long ago

[00:45:35] Christian Bale actually when getting a ward for a movie said he was inspired by

[00:45:42] Satan to play the role to do a good job of playing the role in his speech I couldn’t believe it he was he thanked

[00:45:49] Satan for inspiring him it was awful you know the the in Chicago they put up I

[00:45:55] can’t believe this but it happened they put up a satanic goat statue and where

[00:46:02] does that come from well the goat in the Bible in this particular verse where Jesus talking goats represent those who

[00:46:08] do not follow the shepherd right goats if you ever how to go they’re kind of ornery and they like to do their own

[00:46:13] thing and they’re they’re troublemakers but sheep follow the shepherd right

[00:46:19] that’s what they do they go to the shepherd and so the best way to the best world what does that mean it means that

[00:46:26] that God is taking the opportunity to look at our heart through what we do

[00:46:32] James says he says you have faith I will show you my faith by my deeds and this

[00:46:39] is why the Bible says Jesus Christ says well the disciples asked Jesus how do we know if somebody’s really a Christian or

[00:46:45] not and Jesus says you will know them by their fruits now this is significant because God does not say you will know

[00:46:52] them by what’s inside their mind what’s inside their heart he says you will know

[00:46:58] them by their fruits by the way they live how does that flesh out in real life and so we can tell a

[00:47:04] person is going to heaven or not by the fruit that comes out of their life whether they’re a go or a sheep and

[00:47:10] interestingly enough it looks like God’s ss of divining who was a sheep and a

[00:47:16] goat is what happens here on earth that’s what this process is all about because the people that end up in heaven

[00:47:24] are people who love God there will be nobody in heaven who doesn’t love God and desire what God desires and the

[00:47:30] people who go to hell are the people who don’t want God who want nothing to do with God who say I want to do things my

[00:47:36] way not your way and this is the sheep and goat metaphor I’m gonna end on this one more verse we’re just about out of

[00:47:42] time here but this is again one of my favorite verses Matthew chapter 13 24 through 30 and this is Jesus talking he

[00:47:49] says the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field but while his men were

[00:47:56] sleeping his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat and went away so when the plants came up and bore grain then

[00:48:02] the weeds appeared also and the servants of the master of the house came and said to him master did you not sow good seed in your field

[00:48:08] how then does it have weeds he said to them an enemy has done this so the servants said to him then do you want us

[00:48:15] to go and gather them but the master said no less than gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them

[00:48:21] let both grow together until the harvest and at harvest time I will tell the Reapers gather the weeds first and bind

[00:48:27] them in bundles to be burned but gather the wheat into my barn and the significance again is that God is

[00:48:34] parsing the wheat and the weeds and this process is happening here in real time

[00:48:40] as we live our lives as we demonstrate whether we love God or don’t love him through the way we live through what we

[00:48:47] do and that’s what this whole process is about so the bet the best way to the better world why is there suffering and

[00:48:53] evil in the world if there was not suffering and evil in the world there would be no morally significant decisions that could be made if there

[00:49:00] were no morally significant significant decisions that could be made there would be no way to demonstrate love and

[00:49:05] ultimately love is what divides the sheep and the goats you are either loving which is defined

[00:49:13] in in obedience to God or you are not loving and so this is a very very

[00:49:18] amazing and there’s a lot more that could be said on it but hopefully that’s an encouragement to you hopefully hopefully it gives you some

[00:49:24] understanding I really appreciate you being here with today and taking the time to listen I hope if you’re interested in more

[00:49:31] programs I’ve got tons of interviews with experts from all over the world on our program and we’ve got a full curriculum online that you can check out

[00:49:37] anytime if you have questions please email me you can get ahold of me on Facebook or on just by regular email so

[00:49:45] thanks for being here and I hope you have a fantastic day and we’ll be with you again next week 12:30 in real time

[00:49:53] Pacific Standard Time god bless you take care [Music]

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