Whaddo You Meme – Jon McCray

[00:00:00] thanks for being here today this is Kevin Conover and you’re on educate for life radio if you’re listening to radio

[00:00:05] radio super old-school but we’re also on Zoom we’re going to be on YouTube this will be uploaded to YouTube and we’re

[00:00:12] also broadcasting on places like periscope and all over social media so you can check it out there we have tons

[00:00:19] of programs on our website I have interviews with people from all over the world including people like dr. James

[00:00:26] tour he’s one of the top 50 scientists in the world on organic synthetic chemists we talk about the feasibility

[00:00:32] of evolution and these sorts of things I’ve also got debates on their recently debated John Gleeson the godless

[00:00:37] engineer if you’re interested in hearing that dialogue back and forth and then we’ve got all kinds of apologist people

[00:00:44] who are defending the Christian faith people like Greg cocoa and others and our guest today is John McCrae and I’m

[00:00:51] super excited to have him on and hear a little bit about how he got started because he’s kind of blowing up on

[00:00:57] YouTube and he’s got a very interesting angle in perspective and John I just want to thank you for being here today

[00:01:02] I know no problem thanks for having me oh yeah it’s awesome very cool well you

[00:01:08] know people have been talking all over the place about recently Ravi Zacharias passed away and you know that’s a huge

[00:01:15] everybody’s it’s a huge loss to the apologetics community he was a very unique individual even the way he

[00:01:21] approached apologetics was very unique and different and I use a lot of his

[00:01:26] stuff I reference him when I’m talking to my students I’m a 12th grade apologetics teacher and I wanted to get

[00:01:33] just your reaction to you know what kind of an impact Ravi had on your life and

[00:01:38] also you know your perspective on who he was as a person in it and as an

[00:01:43] apologist yeah no absolutely um yeah was definitely a sad loss losing Ravi

[00:01:49] because Ravi was one he’s one of the few apologists at least in my opinion this

[00:01:54] probably is an objective but in my opinion who really made a strong conscious effort to bring in the

[00:02:00] emotional element and meet the human where they are not just in a great part of the human like you know just the

[00:02:05] intellect and just emotions or anything like that he integrated the full human whenever he engaged with people and because of that

[00:02:13] something that I really tried to employ and what I do is well too so that’s a

[00:02:18] big reason why I think Robbie was so impactful too because he didn’t just reach to apologetics kind of apologist

[00:02:23] kind of mindset instead he kind of reached a more broad appeal of reaching everybody globally and everything so

[00:02:29] yeah yeah and that’s actually a big part of what I want to talk to you about today because I think you’re doing the

[00:02:34] same thing in a lot of ways your apologetics isn’t this intellectual high-minded kind of discussion you know

[00:02:40] it’s kind of the the real basics like of what people are doing with you’re dealing with memes which is hilarious to

[00:02:46] me I don’t know any apologist who takes that angle but but it’s really needed

[00:02:52] you know when I look at it’s like man this is perfect it’s exactly right can

[00:02:58] you just tell us like where did you come up with this like what made you decide you know what I’m gonna respond

[00:03:03] specifically to memes yeah so so I was used to do like a lot of discussions

[00:03:09] online like a lot of debates back and forth and stuff a lot too when I was really kind of testing out a lot of the arguments and stuff and going back and

[00:03:16] forth if atheists and stuff and this is at the same time we’re at a cochlear implant surgery you have a cochlear

[00:03:21] implant and so I was out of work for a long time too so I was just debating and stuff like all day every day and there

[00:03:27] was all these memes that people would drop and I was like I just like always just wanted like destroy these means you

[00:03:33] don’t I mean because there’s all these problems and so like they’re irritating aren’t they irritating oh they’re so

[00:03:38] irritating yeah I mean you see this this stupid picture and then the in all caps

[00:03:43] and you’re just like that’s so dumb it’s so much how does that influence anybody yeah yeah exactly that’s the problem

[00:03:51] with it is that these memes I realize like give this it’s not what they say as much as the emotional connotation that

[00:03:56] they have right and so because of that like they are impactful in society they’re these the one-liners and cliches

[00:04:02] and stuff that are really persuasive to like your average kind of layman who’s not like hasn’t thought very critically

[00:04:07] about stuff and because it’s a soundbite they pass on really easy and so like I just wanted to really like to respond to

[00:04:14] him and then when it came time for me to start my youtube channel I was like huh I might be kind of cool I was like maybe

[00:04:20] I’ll be like the meme destroy or something like that then I was like no what do you mean it’s just like yeah

[00:04:25] that’s it what do you mean so and that obviously really resonated with people because it’s it’s taken off and so you know what

[00:04:34] what about that you know what about that do you think is really just connecting

[00:04:41] with people I mean it’s a lot of what you just said there but like what are your what are some of the means that you

[00:04:46] responded to early on that really you felt like this is this is great this is

[00:04:53] exactly what I need to do do you have any in your mind that just really hit you that you wanted to respond to

[00:04:58] quickly not a particular meme in mind I think what it was was kind of the whole

[00:05:04] mindset and so I kind of realized like a lot of the kind of classical apologetics don’t really discussed these mean level

[00:05:10] type objections right and so like I have an identical twin brother who’s not a believer and he would throughout a lot

[00:05:17] of these memes slogans all the time right and so like I had a bunch of like apology I’d acknowledged and stuff like

[00:05:23] that of philosophy and stuff like that but the problem with it was that like it’s using a different language and it’s

[00:05:28] not communicating in a way where it will really resonate with people like my twin brother and so because of that I started

[00:05:34] realized and I was like we need more people that are doing stuff like this that can reach that average person who’s

[00:05:40] not even involved in these debates but still through these slogans and it affects their view on Christianity as

[00:05:46] well so that’s kind of how the kind of mindset I was in when I started going forth with a lot of these memes okay so

[00:05:53] a little bit of background I’m just curious you know what is your background as far as you said you have an identical twin brother who’s not a believer did

[00:05:59] you grow up in a family of believers or what what happened there what’s what’s your background yeah no so we didn’t

[00:06:06] grow up in like a church growing household and nothing like that my mom would say stuff sometimes here and there

[00:06:13] but we never had a discussion about God but you say something like oh you know you know you know we got this money or something

[00:06:18] thank you Jesus or something like that right and that was like basically the extent of it but it was honestly like hardly ever we never had a discussion on

[00:06:25] it but my mom would say stuff like that here and there but she wasn’t really like you know what I mean like really

[00:06:31] anything or anything like that we didn’t go to church anything like that and so when I was 15 my aunt actually brought

[00:06:38] us to church for the FIR on first time I was introduced to Christianity and it was a really um I

[00:06:45] don’t want to put a too strong label on it but it was kind of cult-like where they thought they said like if we left

[00:06:50] the church we’d be cursed and all this comes that like that so yeah so it was a bizarre Church like a lot is super charismatic too in a way

[00:06:56] where was I just like oh yeah it really was yeah yeah and so it left like a weird kind of you know we’re just like

[00:07:03] what is this I me and my brother both kind of like went kind of agnostic after that you know and so I was just really

[00:07:09] honestly all over the place kind of like some days I was like I know there’s got to be a god out there and other days I

[00:07:14] was like we’re definitely all alone in this big vast universe right yeah and so it was really based off of how I felt at

[00:07:21] times if I believe in God or not and then um I accidentally enrolled in a philosophy of religion class I didn’t

[00:07:27] know a philosophy was but the world religion class was all filled up so I rolled in a philosophy religion class I

[00:07:33] was like oh yes I’ll try it if I don’t like it I’ll just drop out and I was like my mind was like blown away it

[00:07:39] likes that you can actually like think these things through and come to these logical decisions without having to just

[00:07:44] assume or something like that first yeah but heard of that and so the kalam was the one that really got me to actually

[00:07:50] believe in God and it just stuck with me I remember sitting one day after studying the kalam

[00:07:56] and I was like I believe in God now you know and then so like after that I debated the that argument for years and

[00:08:01] stuff like that online and I still find it convincing today yeah so that was the beginning of it for me so you know break

[00:08:08] that down for our listeners because I know what the kalam is and I was just using this in a debate with the atheist

[00:08:14] here but but you break that down for those who don’t know what the column cosmological argument is yeah the

[00:08:21] problem so it’s basically so you have the premises as an argument that Stafford says everything that begins to

[00:08:28] exist how’s it cause the second premise is the universe began to exist and the conclusion is therefore the universe has

[00:08:34] a cause and then so when you look at the all of them together and you evaluate what kind of cause could have caused the

[00:08:40] universe it would be something that is descriptive that by the necessity you’d have to describe it as something that’s

[00:08:46] like God because if the universe began to exist in my universe it’s all the time all the space and all of matter if

[00:08:53] that had an absolute beginning whatever cause they would have to be timeless spaceless in a material and then there’s

[00:08:58] arguments for why has to be personal and that sort of thing too so that’s kind of it in a nutshell so yeah that’s great so you know I

[00:09:06] wanted to this is a quote from you you put here I was reading an article you

[00:09:11] wrote you said the worst objections to Christianity are the best objections to Christianity you said you said this is

[00:09:18] why I say this in a weird way can you explain that quote what do you mean by that yeah um yeah actually that’s been a

[00:09:23] while since I’ve wrote that article I’m assuming because I barely remember I’m sure I met by yeah so the reason why is

[00:09:33] that these arguments that are really powerful they’re not academically rigorous or philosophically rigorous

[00:09:39] I’ll talk about from the atheist side on the atheist objections they’re not strong logically but they’re strong

[00:09:46] emotionally and rhetorically and so because of that that’s why they’re the best because they’re the best in the

[00:09:51] sense where they’re the most impactful but they’re the worst in the sense when it comes to something that any

[00:09:56] philosopher would take serious or use or anything like that and so that’s why it’s like you can focus on this stuff

[00:10:02] and you can respond to these objections philosophically and intellectually but people are usually kind of more

[00:10:09] connected to the emotional aspect of objections yeah so I mean a lot of people that are listening right there

[00:10:15] that listen to my program and that I’m talking to a lot of times what they’re dealing with is okay how do I reach my

[00:10:21] relatives how do I reach my family how do I reach my friends on my my football

[00:10:26] team whatever it might be these are the kinds of things I teach 12th grade students apologetics and all

[00:10:31] day long they’re on tick-tock they’re on snapchat Instagram they’re watching

[00:10:36] YouTube this is what they do all day long and so I think what you’re doing is ultra relevant to their lives because

[00:10:42] they’re not by and large unless I make them write for a grade they’re not digging deep on the intellectual

[00:10:48] arguments what they’re looking at is exactly what you’re saying is the short quick statements about reality that may

[00:10:56] or may not be valid but a lot of them they wouldn’t know right but they just like you said they think does that make

[00:11:02] sense to me on on its surface and they just go with it and it kind of just sits in their heart and it just

[00:11:08] builds over time you know so I guess my question to you for you know to address

[00:11:14] those who are listening is you know what what does this mean for us now that we live in this pop culture where

[00:11:20] everything’s like these quick sound bites what does that mean for me as a Christian how would you go about telling

[00:11:27] my students my 12th grade students who want to reach their friends and everything how does this perspective

[00:11:33] change their approach to to reaching them what would you say to them yeah I’d

[00:11:39] say that I think the the church or at least as we do our evangelism we need to

[00:11:45] be staying current with the mindset that is in the cultures because we want Christianity makes sense the people both

[00:11:51] objectively and subjectively right so when we’re just arguing from like an objective standpoint in a postmodern

[00:11:57] culture that’s not enough because you know I’m by objective I mean independent of human psychology right but that’s not

[00:12:04] enough because people are saying like okay yeah there’s no objective meaning for my life but I create my own meaning

[00:12:10] that’s all that matters because in a postmodern culture you are you know the arbiter of truth and of all things

[00:12:16] basically everybody has their own religion and God and thought or whatever right and so we’re kind of back to that

[00:12:21] time my kind of like in the Rome Church right I mean in the early in early Rome and so we have to be able to understand

[00:12:30] where they’re coming from so we can answer questions that they’re actually asking so I think that is like the kind

[00:12:35] of critical thing is we want to reach them with the mind emotions and in community and stuff as well so they can

[00:12:41] work out these intellectual and emotional objections because overnight it’s really tough that’s what we have to be able to build these relationships

[00:12:47] with people disciple and continue to engage with people over and over so kind

[00:12:53] of to your question where you say what do we do kind of in this sound bite culture I think one way we do it is what

[00:12:58] I attempt to do in the videos is to counter that that rhetoric that sounds intuitive to them because it makes sense

[00:13:04] to them how they’re wired and I try to counter that with something that’s equally intuitive and then that way

[00:13:10] they’re going to be more open to hear what the objective truth is behind it matter can you give us an example of a

[00:13:17] meme that you’re you’re saying okay this is an emotional argument you

[00:13:23] know it it goes around it spreads around it’s not legitimate ultimately or you can refute it

[00:13:29] but it does have an impact you have any offhand that you could share with us as an example of what you’re what you’re

[00:13:35] talking about what you’re dealing with yeah I guess if you think about some claim like um all religions or you know

[00:13:43] are all religious views are wrong right something like that any religious view is wrong or all religious views are true

[00:13:49] you know because I think when people lose faith they’re gonna go with on one of those roads right all religions are

[00:13:55] true all are true or false and so I think when it comes to something like that right intuitively it sounds right

[00:14:02] if you’re saying like okay well if this religions false then all religions are false but like the thing that’s kind of

[00:14:08] like wrong about this statement the usual assumption behind it is that like atheism is in a way of looking at the

[00:14:13] world right they present it as just like a lack of belief typically online but it’s still a way to see the world and

[00:14:19] understand the world and how things go in so like if I say don’t tell me you

[00:14:25] know that your view is right and my VR you can no you can’t say that your view is is right and my belief is wrong but

[00:14:32] they’re doing the same thing they’re saying that your belief is wrong and their belief is right but they don’t see

[00:14:37] it you know there’s a lot of those kind of in self inferentially incoherent statements that a lot of times people

[00:14:44] latch on to because they don’t think them through that most of the statements can apply to themselves but they just don’t think them through enough to see

[00:14:50] yeah since I see what you’re saying yeah so you know you you’ve emphasized

[00:14:57] emotion and logic that the necessity of emotion which I’ve always thought about

[00:15:02] this too I’ve thought about this a lot because I’ve noticed that a lot of times my students although the intellectual

[00:15:08] arguments do impact them and they they are powerful and they’re they’re needed

[00:15:13] a lot of times what they’re dealing with is an emotional situation there right they’re dealing with our emotions what’s

[00:15:19] going on emotionally and so you know the it struck me CS lewis and ravi zacharias

[00:15:26] both consistently used stories and emotion in order to make their case

[00:15:35] so you know you’re refuting these memes do you ever make Christian means also

[00:15:40] that that are kind of responding to that

[00:15:45] like emotional memes I thought of making a meme for example Darwin used to be Darwin was a racist right and I thought

[00:15:52] of making you know putting a meme up of Darwin and then it says I’m a racist or something like that right because it’s

[00:16:00] pure emotion right right it’s not logically valid to say his views on evolution are wrong because he was a

[00:16:06] racist but it sure did sure would affect a lot of people you know what am i right see and this is where I think wisdom

[00:16:12] really kicks in and by the way I haven’t created any memes but I mean I try to kind of do something similar with the

[00:16:18] videos you know but yeah I you know I would if I you know wanted to but the

[00:16:24] thing about these things a lot of the times sue actually just lost my train of thought so so I was asking specifically

[00:16:32] you know the emotional impact and you know how means basically dark I was

[00:16:39] talking about the Darwin meme there you know but and and not using that you said you don’t make me but you do respond

[00:16:45] with videos that are means yeah whatever and that’s what I was gonna say is that

[00:16:50] a lot of these times you do want to make people care right and so this is kind of one of the approach when you kind of

[00:16:56] disrupt people with the meme you make them care make them start thinking about it a little bit more and we see Jesus

[00:17:01] doing stuff like this in the New Testament for a lot of the questions he asked and stuff like this or I could get to that kind of point of where their

[00:17:07] assumption is and where their identity comes from those sorts of things so like when we if we just respond to a lot of

[00:17:14] these atheist memes that have this strong rhetoric plainly logically a lot of the times that’s not gonna make them care because they can they don’t care

[00:17:20] about history or philosophy or anything like that but if you do use like these type of memes like how you’re saying you

[00:17:26] know say that they’re really invested in a believing that Darwinism provides a ethical system you know for the world or

[00:17:32] something like that then a meme like that would be more powerful because then they’re gonna say wait you know he was

[00:17:37] if he was racist what does that mean for my my ethical system you know my standards that sort of thing then

[00:17:43] they’re gonna start thinking about it more so that’s how those types of things work and I think those same type of things effect Christians a lot as

[00:17:50] well too so so in what way what do you mean by that it affects crazy – yeah so I’m not sure if you saw but the singer

[00:17:58] of Hawk Hawk Nelson I believe um yeah do you know that band I know the bass yeah

[00:18:03] okay yeah Christian punk band he actually just came out as an atheist yesterday oh my gosh yeah I know that

[00:18:10] yeah yeah and it was the same as the Marty Sampson and a lot of its the flow and their Instagram posts are almost

[00:18:16] identical like they start saying the same sorts of things they in the same kind of way they talk about the problems

[00:18:22] that they had with Christianity how it was a slow process and over and over in this you see the same sorts of things

[00:18:27] they have these memes and when I say means who are coming me these slogans that they get from these memes that they

[00:18:32] will use you know what I mean like well why does it God allow evil you know the mean or well the Bible has written all

[00:18:38] these hundreds of times and all these kinds of things like that they always will start using because they’re the

[00:18:44] sound bites that they attach to and they plant these seeds of doubt in their mind but if they took the time to actually

[00:18:50] investigate these things they’d see that it’s not you know it’s not valid most of time you know but that’s the thing though it affects them emotionally and

[00:18:57] if they’re not willing to do the research and the work you know or if it’s the emotional problems that they

[00:19:03] have or something is stronger in the intellectual side then it can actually be damaging to their faith and so that’s

[00:19:08] what I mean you want to talk about how it does affect some Christians or something like that is that these memes can spark doubt and so that’s why I try

[00:19:14] to work so hard are countering these common slogans and that sort of thing yeah so here’s another quote from an

[00:19:20] article that you read and if you’re if you’re just popping in here my guest today is John McCrae what do you mean

[00:19:25] you can check him out on YouTube he’s got a fantastic around 200 videos that

[00:19:32] you can check out responding to popular memes and I’m talking about dealing with everything you can imagine I I saw one

[00:19:39] of the memes you addressed I think it was in your 1-minute reviews it had to do with Adam and Eve and that the meme

[00:19:46] specifically said Adam and Eve had three kids and then populated the world or

[00:19:53] something like that and and basically it’s a total fallacy but if people don’t

[00:19:58] take the time to go and look it up basically oh they’ll think oh yeah they

[00:20:03] had they had a cane able and Seth and how how are they able to make everybody

[00:20:10] else right and so if a person just walks away they have a seed of doubt planted

[00:20:15] in their heart or their mind and they move on but you address that yeah which is actually a quick very quick response

[00:20:23] to that but what was the response you wrote to that one yeah I was I can’t

[00:20:29] remember the exact verse now and I’m on word-for-word but the next verse is said something of effect and then they went

[00:20:36] and had more what was that thing something like that have more children or something like that yeah many more sons and daughters jealous right yeah

[00:20:43] yeah go ahead oh yeah I was gonna say yeah you’re

[00:20:48] absolutely right if people just see the meme and they just take it you know like oh this must be true because it’s a meme

[00:20:53] and then they don’t go to actually lick the verse up don’t read the next verse then it looks persuasive yeah

[00:20:59] and it’s crazy because it seems that there’s just this barrage of these short

[00:21:04] quick clips that are just tearing people down and because people don’t want to take the time to go look into it it just

[00:21:10] it’s just a slow erosion but that’s what you’re you’re dealing with this is a

[00:21:15] quote I got off an article you read here it says your perhaps many years ago when the cultural

[00:21:22] Authority could have been said to be academia logic in fact logical arguments may have carried a lot more weight

[00:21:28] concerning the growth of atheism but gone are those days cultural interest is by and large much more directed towards

[00:21:35] personal emotions and experience so are

[00:21:41] we able to respond to this through memes through our own short quick clips or do

[00:21:49] we need to come up with these you know heavy intellectual arguments to counter this is this a battle of memes or is it

[00:21:57] we’ve got to deal with a heavy intellectual arguments and they get to keep using memes sometimes I feel like I

[00:22:03] titled the titleist show do atheists on the Internet because sometimes I feel like it’s just this wave of

[00:22:11] misinformation absolutely no and that’s a great question in my mind it works something like this

[00:22:17] so you have like say you have an emotional appeal like um the Bible

[00:22:22] promotes whatever genocide or something like that right and then you week and

[00:22:29] then it sounds rhetorically powerful you respond to it powerfully emotionally as well as intellectually as well as I

[00:22:38] guess just um I guess we’ll just stick with those two intellectually and emotionally right so now you neutralize

[00:22:45] the emotional aspect and then you have superior intellect because you have the truth right if you have the truth then

[00:22:51] that’s gonna trump it in that aspect but you have to create this kind of cognitive dissonance within people so that way they can start to care then

[00:22:57] they’re gonna be open the truth when they found out that they’ve been wrong so you I think it’s just as critical to counter I think you need both in other

[00:23:04] words you have to counter the emotion and you also have to provide a greater intellectual response to what it is

[00:23:11] gotcha and I mean that’s a popular question the one you just brought up right there that’s a huge one the Bible promotes

[00:23:17] genocide look at don’t spare you know women or children right in the scriptures I mean is it even possible to

[00:23:24] give a quick response to that or is that something that somebody just has to be

[00:23:30] willing to take the time to you know investigate ya know cuz I wrestle with stuff like

[00:23:36] that a lot when you hear these slogans and the problem is too is like sometimes some people hear these slogans and then

[00:23:42] they’re like okay let’s hear your response and then you start explaining your given context because there’s all kinds of missed assumptions you have to

[00:23:48] correct in order for them to understand it and then they to them they’re just like oh you just sound like you’re just making a big excuse or a word salad or

[00:23:55] something like that yeah the problems yeah and that’s what the problem is is because you have to it for in order for

[00:24:01] communication to work with people you have to have a shared understanding of the assumptions prior in order for the

[00:24:07] for the conclusion it makes sense and because we lack so much of a common

[00:24:12] foundation in today’s culture because of the sound bites if it’s only a motion that gets on there it’s gonna take a lot

[00:24:18] more steps it seems like to clear out those misconceptions so that the answer can make a lot more sense so that is a

[00:24:24] challenge but I tried to like them a lot of times if I’m working on the question like that for video I try to just sit

[00:24:30] down and try to think like how can I make this short and persuasive you know what I mean and that’s what I’m keep

[00:24:35] thinking is like do I need words what’s the fast this kind of way I can get there you know try to trim the fat if

[00:24:41] they’re as fast as I can and then that it’s gonna be persuasive and it can counter that initial shock of the

[00:24:47] statement yeah yeah that’s great so if

[00:24:52] you’re listening my guest today is John McCrae and he is with what do you mean that says his own YouTube show and

[00:24:59] program you can support him also on how can people support you if they want to

[00:25:04] John yeah um prayer you know patreon and Adriana yes

[00:25:10] subscribe star okay awesome and I’m Kevin Conover if you haven’t

[00:25:15] tuned in before my ministries educate for life.org and I have a whole on online curriculum that you can check out

[00:25:21] it’s 40 online videos that are meant to be comprehensive and cute and and basically systematic in order to help

[00:25:28] you establish a firm foundation covering all the Conny issues a lot of what what john is dealing with is also what I’m

[00:25:35] dealing with mine is a lot more in-depth in the sense that I have it’ll take

[00:25:41] longer for you to watch them is there quicken to the point which is awesome so this scripture geez

[00:25:48] says in Matthew 5:16 in the same way let your light shine before men that they may see your good deeds and glorify your

[00:25:54] father in heaven and I love what you reference John you said that you know Jesus is using emotion he’s using

[00:26:01] intellect and he uses a lot of stories like one of the ones that came to my mind when I was thinking about what

[00:26:06] you’re doing is he tells the story of the prodigal son in Luke chapter 15 and

[00:26:12] it’s a very emotional story right and he’s showing God’s love for a kid and

[00:26:18] how the kid goes off and everything it’s a long story and it reminds me of Ravi Zacharias or Ravi Zacharias reminds me

[00:26:25] of that and and CS Lewis the same thing just just stories after story after story I mean all the whole Narnia series

[00:26:31] is a giant story right about God’s love and so I think that’s awesome

[00:26:36] that you’re doing that too but you’re doing it more concise and short so a

[00:26:42] little bit more background about you and everything in what’s going on so with

[00:26:47] your your brother he’s an atheist he went in a total different direction why did he go off in that direction and

[00:26:53] you’re going off in this direction yeah that’s a good question um honestly like as crazy as it sounds that philosophy of

[00:27:00] religion class really changed me now I realize like he processes a little different we’re like opposites in a lot

[00:27:06] of ways right and like I like to read a lot he I think he says he’s never read a book like in his life right so he

[00:27:13] doesn’t like that yeah he doesn’t like a lot of that kind of stuff you know but I mean that’s kind of like we don’t talk

[00:27:20] about it a ton because you know there’s you know if brothers and stuff is a lot more tension and we’ve had the conversation and stuff early a lot more

[00:27:26] but as we have conversations more and more lately they’re getting better you

[00:27:31] know there’s actually a conversation out of it from on my channel it’s called a something like um looks like this is it

[00:27:38] sorry guys or something because I really I had him start out the video and he’s like yeah guys I don’t think I believe

[00:27:43] this stuff anymore so I’m gonna close the channel and then I come in and then we have a conversation about

[00:27:49] Christianity and stuff so you can hear his kind of objections there but yeah I think it’s kind of weird like that we

[00:27:55] did go such kind of opposite ways but I I genuinely do think God willing that

[00:28:01] he will come around here in time I think he actually his girlfriend is a

[00:28:06] Christian apparently so yeah yeah so hopefully I’m sure she’ll play a role in

[00:28:12] something yeah from all angles right yeah yeah so who are who are some of the

[00:28:20] apologists that you really look up to you that you really draw from today as

[00:28:26] far as like you know where you feel like man this argument these arguments really resonate with me yeah it’s hard to say

[00:28:34] because it really depends on what it is you know I can tell you like academically some of the arguments that I found the

[00:28:40] most compelling it’s like the Kalam or even the LA – Skien cosmological

[00:28:49] argument yeah the contingency argument there you go also the arguments from

[00:28:55] consciousness all those kind of origin arguments are far more persuasive but

[00:29:00] when it comes to kind of like the way I think I think the one person I think that kind of where I read his stuff and

[00:29:07] it was like okay this makes more sense for where we are today was Tim Keller his book the reason for God was

[00:29:13] impactful for me I think in the sense where it I was like this makes more sense because he’s answering these

[00:29:18] questions that people are really asking you know what I mean and he’s a pastor in New York for a bunch of years and so people come up to him and ask him these

[00:29:24] same sorts of questions over and over and his approach to it didn’t just seem dry and academic you know yeah so that

[00:29:30] was influential kind of to the way I think I think with a lot of it that was kind of the beginning of me thinking okay what can I do different you know

[00:29:37] what I mean that sort of thing – so yeah outside of that do you you and what are

[00:29:44] your favorite topics to cover so I know you know I’ve seen you you have some discussions with different people about

[00:29:51] Islam you know things like that are there any particular topics do you cover

[00:29:57] things like Buddhism – or do you mainly focus on the secularist agnostic

[00:30:02] perspectives yeah I’d say that I focus the most I say on probably like the

[00:30:07] secular agnostic atheist stuff and also kind of pop culture kind of mindset – but like my favorite thing always

[00:30:14] I mean this goes throughout everything is talking about the gospel I love the message of the gospel and it’s weird

[00:30:20] because I didn’t fall in love with the message of the gospel so much I’m still like you know the last couple of years but reading the Bible more and more and

[00:30:26] stuff like this to studying that stuff like that that’s where I’m always trying to get people hungry think I’m like if

[00:30:31] you’re not getting them to the gospel then you know what I mean um you you know you’re not necessarily doing it

[00:30:37] wrong but let’s get more people trying to get people all the way to the gospel you know so yeah have a lot of videos

[00:30:42] and stuff on the gospel and how it relates are practical lives that’s great and you know were you surprised at how

[00:30:50] this took off well you were you expecting things to go how long did it how long ago did you start what do you

[00:30:57] mean yeah it’s been two years now I just had a my two-year mark here a little bit ago that’s great yeah relations thank

[00:31:04] you thank you over your over 50,000 subscribers now is that right yeah yeah that’s right

[00:31:09] yeah and it’s weird cuz honestly I don’t really think of I when I first started the channel was like yeah I’d be crazy

[00:31:14] to have like a thousand subscribers you know saying I couldn’t even imagine it really but I kind of never really like

[00:31:20] scouts who bogged down on the numbers because everything just kind of went and kind of crept you know and I wasn’t

[00:31:26] putting too much I guess stock into the numbers because I realized like even if you have a lot of subscribers doesn’t

[00:31:31] mean you’re reaching people you know there though but I’m hidden the 50,000 was like you know looking back you’re

[00:31:37] like whoa you know what I mean it’s kind of like you walked up with a big hill and you’re like whoa I guess I can I

[00:31:42] thought you know so that’s great and and what kind of food are you seeing do you get people contacting you saying hey you

[00:31:49] know you really this really helped me a lot and this sort of stuff yeah and uh consistently I think um yeah

[00:31:57] I get I get messages and emails and comments from people like atheist agnostic Christians who are happy

[00:32:03] because their faith was saved and like I just today I just read an email from from a guy who was an atheist we started

[00:32:10] watching my videos became a theist and now he said that he’s Christian he’s been reading his Bible and stuff like this again and he said he realized when

[00:32:17] I did a video talking about why atheist sound persuasive but shouldn’t I can’t remember exactly what I covered in that

[00:32:23] video that’s what it’s called I think I was talking about like their rhetoric and all this stuff order but he

[00:32:28] said that was true and that was the beginning of him realizing that he was understanding things wrong and then he

[00:32:34] watched my series on slavery in the Bible and realized how atheists will just take like a small portion and ignore everything else and then take it

[00:32:41] out of context and stuff and so he said that was huge too so he started reading this Bible again with the right mindset and so now he says he’s a Christian you

[00:32:48] know so that is really cool so um stuff like that is what because it does gets hard you know working on YouTube and

[00:32:54] stuff it’s easy to get discouraged doing this kind of stuff you know but that kind of stuff kind of you know confirms

[00:32:59] you know that you you’re what you’re doing you’re on the right path yeah yeah that’s what I was actually gonna ask you

[00:33:04] next is you know there are lots of people out there that want to make an impact for Christ they want to do something and we because of the

[00:33:11] quarantine and everything so much more has gone online and so there’s a lot more people looking into you know making

[00:33:19] a difference that way for Christ what kind of advice would you give to somebody out there who wants to be an

[00:33:25] influence for the Lord they want to make a positive impact what have been the

[00:33:31] struggles you’ve gone through that you would looking back tell you you know how would you advise yourself to keep going

[00:33:37] because you said it’s discouraging at times yeah absolutely yeah there’s there’s a few things um I think too we

[00:33:44] need a lot of people to to be working in their communities to like before you do YouTube we need people to be working

[00:33:50] one-on-one with people because it’s not the best way to try to disciple somebody you know what I mean the cycloid bunch

[00:33:55] of people you have one-on-one stuff and small groups and all that stuff it’s easier to get to the core so I say start

[00:34:00] there always and you start understanding the mindset of people a lot deeper but yeah I think some advice um you’re never

[00:34:07] gonna be a millionaire which you probably already know so don’t think you gotta get rich quick or something like

[00:34:12] it doesn’t work that way yeah YouTube doesn’t pay you a ton you know so um but and everybody thinks

[00:34:17] youtubers are rich me and Bobbie Conway want me to apologize always joke about it cuz we’re like we’re gonna pull up through this conference and we’re in a

[00:34:23] car if you forgive me like yeah those rich youtubers but anyways yeah it’s

[00:34:30] hard because it takes a long time to get the ball moving like people always like

[00:34:35] me my wife just started a family vlog videos and we’re back up you know we started a zero subscribers again

[00:34:41] and I’m like whoa this is a long path you know I mean that is gonna take the get you know yeah I think that if you

[00:34:48] are thinking about starting a YouTube channel like this younger generation these kids I think they’re gonna do way

[00:34:53] better than when we can do you guys grew up in this stuff you know we didn’t we just kind of adopted it you know so yeah

[00:34:59] yeah don’t get discouraged you’re gonna get flooded with atheists no matter what you post no matter how great it is

[00:35:05] you’re gonna get flooded with atheists calling you names calling you dumb saying your stuff is garbage you’re gonna get it no matter what

[00:35:10] and people usually get discouraged because you get sick of the hate but don’t let that stop you it gets easier in time you get more and more used to it

[00:35:17] and it stops bothering don’t forget in some of that stuff because usually they

[00:35:24] probably don’t know what they’re talking about if you’re using talking about arguments and stuff like that so don’t get too discouraged you know and I guess

[00:35:30] that’s another question I have for you is why is that you know because why does it seem like there’s it’s it’s like you

[00:35:37] know if I was just going off of anecdotal experience it feels like 75%

[00:35:43] of the people you know are atheists because you post something and it’s just all this anger and hate and so it’s like

[00:35:51] hey can we just have a conversation without humming like belittling me I have an honest discussion oh yeah yeah

[00:35:59] no I honestly think it’s a product of where we are on clothes for today too and I think that the politics and everything have something to do with

[00:36:05] this I remember the polls filled negatively that people have more negative feelings

[00:36:10] towards Christianity after the last election you know and it’s because of how they brand it so like the younger

[00:36:15] generations tend to be you know more liberal and more you know what they say

[00:36:21] is like human rights and equality and that sort of thing and they see the Conservatives is the opposite right and

[00:36:27] people want existential freedom just freedom for its own sake is what the is kind of like the mindset of kids growing

[00:36:33] up now and existential freedom and Christianity seems to impose on that so I think a lot of people have way more

[00:36:39] negative emotions because of it you know what I mean and I think that that’s what works because like you have like the

[00:36:45] Westboro Baptist Church which is like super famous like five people right miss though because it resonates with

[00:36:53] how other people feel like that they are made to feel and like for whatever reason to like it’s not you know I think

[00:36:59] it was um Brett Conkle who did he was teaching a group of kids and he said how many of you think that Christianity

[00:37:05] talks negatively towards homosexuality or Christians are bad towards homosexuals everybody raise their hand

[00:37:10] and he said how many of you know first hand in ER for our first second or third hand an example of this and nobody could

[00:37:17] raise their hand right because a lot of it is just this rhetoric that’s passed on and these assumptions keep getting built into culture and so will

[00:37:24] emotionally relate to it because they say hey I don’t want to feel bad these people make people feel bad so therefore

[00:37:30] they must be bad and so that’s the mindset I think that makes it where it’s easier for atheism and stuff like that

[00:37:35] to pass all on online yeah and so and that and that’s what we have to push back against oh that’s right you are you

[00:37:41] are approaching this from an angle of being able to push back against this I

[00:37:46] often have these discussions too is that a lot of times I feel like what I’m dealing with is just a propaganda war

[00:37:52] it’s not even it’s not even an intellectual discussion or even I want to know truth you know let’s let’s have

[00:37:59] a have a discussion it’s more just like this wave of propaganda that is just overwhelming people and I actually feel

[00:38:06] like we’re moving in a good direction right now I feel like relatively positive I feel like there’s a lot of people like you and others who are

[00:38:12] popping up and responding to the culture in a way that people can you know they

[00:38:18] can actually take it in and it makes a difference in their lives how do you feel about the culture moving forward do

[00:38:24] you feel you know we get these pew result polls where it says I think one a

[00:38:29] few maybe 10 years ago it was something like 95% of people couldn’t claim to be

[00:38:35] Christian and then it dropped to 85 and it dropped to 75 percent what what is

[00:38:40] your view on things going forward a lot of people say that we’re permanently heading into a postmodern direction you

[00:38:45] you feel like it’s it’s possible to reverse that that that tide or is that a foregone conclusion yeah no and that’s a

[00:38:53] big question there’s a lot to it I’m especially looking at the sociologist and stuff like that I love younger people to don’t like

[00:39:01] a problem with institutions they see it as oppressive and this sort of thing if it just comes in a postmodern culture

[00:39:06] and so because of that the church is gonna be shrinking no matter what because these people have a they don’t

[00:39:13] understand how the church can relate to their life as an institution and so like that’s that’s the part that’s that’s

[00:39:19] tough it’s hard to predict these things of course right but given the current data it seems like it’s gonna continue

[00:39:24] to go that way I think J Warner Wallace said by 2050 I think if current projections church attendance is gonna

[00:39:31] drop by 50% you know and so but anyways yeah so I think that best direction but

[00:39:37] here’s the way I look at it is like we have to understand the problem first before we can understand the solution

[00:39:42] right and so if people tell me like like sometimes in skits and stuff like this I’ll highlight the absurdity of like the

[00:39:47] atheistic worldview and uh some sort of way and if they say well that seems harsh or something like that then I’m

[00:39:54] thinking like we have to understand what the problem is before we can think in matok to a solution in a culture where

[00:40:00] the big the objections for atheism almost all their objections they literally got from comedians literally

[00:40:05] they got from comedians right yeah so if that’s the case what is their epistemology or what is their way of

[00:40:11] coming to believe or know set these conclusions it’s not logic it’s you know it’s not fact it’s not hardcore evidence

[00:40:17] and anybody that’s been engaging with atheists online already knows you can give people tons of facts tons of

[00:40:23] evidence and they just won’t care or they’ll just blow it off they’ll say it’s not evidence they don’t care they don’t care what professional historians

[00:40:30] say they don’t care a professional philosophers say they don’t care and so because of that we’re out a different place where we have to fight the battle

[00:40:36] differently and so when it comes to our future I think that I I do believe

[00:40:42] because God brings people up in every generation and all these different ways to be able to defend the truth and right

[00:40:47] now I think we do have like a little bit of a new wave of Christian apologists and people trying to defend the faith a

[00:40:53] little bit differently and so with that I think is gonna be a great thing and I think we’re just gonna see more

[00:40:58] polarization but I think that God putting people in place I think is gonna help sustain the church but I still

[00:41:05] worry the most about people going outside of the church and only being online or something like that I think

[00:41:11] that’s that is where the church I think like an Achilles heel kind of moment

[00:41:16] where it’s gonna hurt the church a lot more so I think we still need in person and community as well yeah yeah we need

[00:41:21] that fellowship we need that connection to the body of Christ you know it’s interesting we’re almost out of time

[00:41:27] here but I I attend to church relatively large Church down here in Southern

[00:41:32] California pastor Jeremiah David Jeremiah he’s a fantastic pastor Shadow

[00:41:39] Mountain Community Church and we had to go online of course because of the quarantine right you know everybody

[00:41:44] people are leading worship just there and there’s nobody that nobody in the audience and these sorts of things and

[00:41:49] we didn’t know what to expect but we ended up having a ridiculous amount of

[00:41:54] people watching the sermons online and he was he was blown away he didn’t

[00:41:59] expect it at all he was do you just couldn’t believe it something close to 90,000 people watching on a Sunday which

[00:42:07] just you can see he’s just like what is happening this isn’t right incredible and many many people getting saved too

[00:42:14] which is so amazing and so I just think you know whatever is happening wherever

[00:42:21] things are going you know God is ready to to work in our lives as we make

[00:42:26] ourselves available and we tune in with him and you know continue to look at

[00:42:31] okay what Paul said in first Corinthians chapter 9 becoming all things to all people that I might save some ocean so I

[00:42:39] mean that’s exactly what you’re doing and so I just want to say thanks a lot man it’s it’s great to have you on our

[00:42:46] side and I’ll be praying for your ministry and and I’m just blessed to

[00:42:51] know that there’s people out there like you who are you know looking at this and going you know what we need to approach

[00:42:57] this from a different angle because I think the emotional angle that you’re going after in a lot of ways is really

[00:43:05] the way forward is like you said people aren’t caring about logic they’re not

[00:43:10] caring about facts they’re caring about you know do they feel a vibe coming off

[00:43:17] of you and their experience with you that is loving that is appealing that is

[00:43:23] joyful and inauthentic too and authentic it’s experiencing Christ through their

[00:43:31] interaction with us so anyway John thanks so much for for doing that and I

[00:43:37] appreciate you being with us today hey man no problem thanks for having me and same to you man I appreciate all the

[00:43:42] work you’re doing that’s great you know yeah lots of fun so we’re blessed if you guys just tuned in at the

[00:43:50] end here John McCrae was my guest today and you can check him out on his youtube

[00:43:56] channel what do you mean just type it into Google or YouTube he’ll pop up and there’s all kinds of amazing videos on

[00:44:02] there for you to check out if you want to check out my stuff I have a full curriculum online that’s helped to build

[00:44:09] a foundation for you also its educate for life or you can check it out and got

[00:44:14] everything you can imagine on there also and just about trying to help you grow in your walk with the Lord have a firm

[00:44:21] foundation and be able to communicate with those around you effectively and lovingly share the truth of the goodness

[00:44:28] of God and salvation through Christ so thanks for being here today and we’re signing off

[00:44:34] see you John alright see you thanks for having me yep you got it

[00:44:45] you